APPs vs. PPPs and balance between them
By
Alvan,
Posted on: 2007-07-01 17:15 in Everything about PvP
I'd love to see defender epics for corruptors, blaster epics for dominators, tank/scrapper epics for stalkers/brutes would really balance it but I cant see it happening much as I want my corruptors to have PB 
thePhilosopher Martial Arts/Regen/Fire Scrapper
theRegulator Empathy/Energy/Soul Defender
Total Inertia Ice Blast/Kinetics/Psy Corruptor
Total Inferno Ice Blast/Thermal/Leviathan Corruptor
tbh, i dont think body mastery is a must have for scrappers.. Especially in PvP I think weapon mastery is an excellent choice for scrappers as well seeing it prevents your opponent from running away
Though I do agree APP are most of the times more powerful than PPPs. Would love to see the defender APP on corrs etc, just like phil said. Or at least some diversity amongst the different patrons. Then again, too big a difference between the patrons result you putting LOTS of thought into which patron to pick seeing you cant respec em..
"god, how many devs did hami have to sleep with to get ED?"
Total Cat @Stagefright
PPPs are a total joke in comparison, totally unfair and totally unbalancing. There isnt a bad hero epic at all, each set brings something new to your character and can change dynamics and playstyles, villains get the same tired old [censored] in every epic for thier AT.
I optimistically cling to the impossible hope that when eventually the changing sides TF goes live real epics will be thrown made available for villain ATs (in addition to the crappy PPPs as inevitably someone somewhere will like them) as PPPs are [censored] in every way, they dont even work from a RP view.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
RP FTW
LMAO!
[ QUOTE ]
RP FTW
[/ QUOTE ]
I could imagine the RP PvP solution of balancing out the Epic Power Pools.
"Ok, now, if I hit you with my PP hold, it's actually power boosted, as my character is a defender at heart, so your character will be held twice as long - use a stopwatch, k?"
"Ok, but you have to remember I'm the last princess of Arachnos, so you will have to run into the mobs to represent the minions I will hurl at you, if I use my summon spiderlings -power."
...
sorry, tired and suffering from a summer flu :P
[b][color=blue]Coldest War /[color=red]/ Omega Patient[/b]
[url="http://www.the-cow.net/"][color=red]The CoW Network (Blog) /[/url][url="http://www.collegeofwar.com/"][color=blue]/ College of War[/url]
[ QUOTE ]
PPPs are a total joke in comparison, totally unfair and totally unbalancing. There isnt a bad hero epic at all, each set brings something new to your character and can change dynamics and playstyles, villains get the same tired old [censored] in every epic for thier AT.
I optimistically cling to the impossible hope that when eventually the changing sides TF goes live real epics will be thrown made available for villain ATs (in addition to the crappy PPPs as inevitably someone somewhere will like them) as PPPs are [censored] in every way, they dont even work from a RP view.
[/ QUOTE ]
Evil Scientist goes to work for Black Scorpion.
Evil Scientist steals gizmos, and [censored] his boss over. The end.
Works for me 
.
I actually like the Patron Powers I took. They have some use to my Dominator.
Thing is a few Hero Epics seem to have been made on Friday afternoon after lunch at the pub and really boost some characters far too much. They seem to have been made under free reign and a lot of "WAAAAA-HAY" attitude . They crazy dammit . And now it's too hard, too risky and would be far too unpopular to tone them down.
IMO PPS would be fine with more variety. Thematically they work fine. The pets need some work - the Toxic Tarantula in specific particular.
But yeah, I'd love to sit inside a PFF for months at a time .
It's perhaps worth bearing in mind that, like anything to do with game balance, you can't just directly compare the Ancillary pools and the Patron Power pools.
Villains have different ATs to Heroes, with different power sets and different Inherent powers.
As such, the question shouldn't be 'Are the Ancillary pools more powerful than the Patron pools?', it should be 'Is a Level X Hero more powerful than a Level X villain?'
Or, even more importantly, 'Is a team of Level X heroes more powerful than a team of Level X villains?'
The Ancillary and Patron pools are just one element of a character's effectiveness. You can only compare them directly if everything else about two characters is the same, which will never be the case when comparing Heroes and Villains, due to the different ATs.
[ QUOTE ]
It's perhaps worth bearing in mind that, like anything to do with game balance, you can't just directly compare the Ancillary pools and the Patron Power pools.
Villains have different ATs to Heroes, with different power sets and different Inherent powers.
As such, the question shouldn't be 'Are the Ancillary pools more powerful than the Patron pools?', it should be 'Is a Level X Hero more powerful than a Level X villain?'
Or, even more importantly, 'Is a team of Level X heroes more powerful than a team of Level X villains?'
The Ancillary and Patron pools are just one element of a character's effectiveness. You can only compare them directly if everything else about two characters is the same, which will never be the case when comparing Heroes and Villains, due to the different ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Lots of people have been eager to answer yes to both questions. Its hard for me to say since I havent really seen a balanced heroes vs villains fight yet where the villain team wouldnt have consisted mainly of corrupters..
[ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see defender epics for corruptors, blaster epics for dominators, tank/scrapper epics for stalkers/brutes would really balance it but I cant see it happening much as I want my corruptors to have PB
[/ QUOTE ]
Those ideas are great imo, but its unlikely we will ever see them happen as devs want to carry on thinking their own way. PB for corrupters would however blow straight off the scale of brokenness 
[ QUOTE ]
You can only compare them directly if everything else about two characters is the same, which will never be the case when comparing Heroes and Villains, due to the different ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Things like rad/sonic defender compared with a sonic/rad corruptor comes pretty close though.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
[ QUOTE ]
It's perhaps worth bearing in mind that, like anything to do with game balance, you can't just directly compare the Ancillary pools and the Patron Power pools.
Villains have different ATs to Heroes, with different power sets and different Inherent powers.
As such, the question shouldn't be 'Are the Ancillary pools more powerful than the Patron pools?', it should be 'Is a Level X Hero more powerful than a Level X villain?'
Or, even more importantly, 'Is a team of Level X heroes more powerful than a team of Level X villains?'
The Ancillary and Patron pools are just one element of a character's effectiveness. You can only compare them directly if everything else about two characters is the same, which will never be the case when comparing Heroes and Villains, due to the different ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Its been quite clearly proven time and time again that high level hero V villains in all configurations and optimised builds that heroes outmatch villains by a clear margin. This is highlighted most clearly in post lvl 41 pvp.
While on the subject of inherants why is it that the brutes inherant is still broken in pvp?
I think the real proof is the fact that if you asked any hero pvper to give up their epics for PPPs you would be laughed at quite vigourously.
PPPs suck, simple as, squishies are forced to take them for the sheild (which is MASSIVELY weaker than controller and defender versions) web envelope is okish but on a long timer and end expensive and pretty much everything else is [censored].
And heres a little more on hero epics, the powerboost that controllers get is the SAME as the one dominators get in their SECONDARY (except that controllers get more benefits from it with a control primary, buff secondary and better modifiers). I dont beleive that any epic power should outpace a primary or secondary and yet dominators powerboost is on an epic scale timer.
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can only compare them directly if everything else about two characters is the same, which will never be the case when comparing Heroes and Villains, due to the different ATs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Things like rad/sonic defender compared with a sonic/rad corruptor comes pretty close though.
[/ QUOTE ]
haha, not really the defender will man-slap the corr silly 
oh wait, thats kinda not the way it should work.....
**Acceptable "support" responses**
Its your fault
Its your computers fault
Its your ISPs fault
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Things like rad/sonic defender compared with a sonic/rad corruptor comes pretty close though.
[/ QUOTE ]
haha, not really the defender will man-slap the corr silly oh wait, thats kinda not the way it should work.....
[/ QUOTE ]
I meant they are good for to compare hero and villain performance since they have the same powers. Same as kin/dark dark/kin, and emp/psi psi/emp. oops. villains dont get psi blast or empathy.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
I think heroes and villains are pretty even. Well, until level 41 that is. Then the heroes easily are tougher than the villains by a mile.
The PPP were badly thought out I think. Nothing original in all the sets - all about the same, all as bad as each other.
@Sweet Chilli
A rather amusing post about PPPs that I pilfered off of the US boards (credit to Manchuwook):
[ QUOTE ]
Zeb (A.K.A Lord Recluse) Cook: Hey, with the villain Powersets, why don't we make them based on the "Patrons" in CoV?
Matt (A.K.A. Positron) Millar: Hey, that is a great idea!
Recluse: Okay, so for Black Scorpion, we should have something that works like Force Mastery, with Focused Accu-
Positron: No.. we made that mistake with the heroes and it made them too overpowered.. we need to tone it down a bit for the villain-side
Recluse: ...okay.. like how?
Positron: Well, for the top-end power, we were thinking of a pet based off of the patron that they can summon
Recluse: Hey! That is a great idea, they could have a team of three blood--
Positron: --no, that is a bit much.. we're thinking just 1.
Recluse: Okay.. just one... but it'll be elite boss level, and hey, we can use that new code that keeps control-
Positron: --it will only stay out for 2 minutes.
Recluse: Okay.. so 2 minutes out.. 6 minutes down..
Positron: Fifteen
Recluse: ...fifteen..
Recluse: Okay, what about the other power sets?
Recluse: I have this cool idea for Ghost Widow--
Positron: Well, over in accounting they were just kicking around the idea of copying the powersets to save time to fix the code problems with some badges not working..
Recluse:...
Positron: ... and we really want to push the new Hamidon and Statesman task force, we're going to end up wasting an entire issue on CoV.
Recluse:...
Recluse: [censored] this noise, I'm going to work for Stray Bullet games.
Positron: Don't let the door hit you on the [censored] on the way out.
[/ QUOTE ]
Made me chuckle anyway
Made me chuckle too 
PPP's are 'A Joke'
Im more annoyed at the fact that we cannot take a 5th power pool in place of the PPP's which would somewhat make up for their lame performance.
In my opinion a plain ordinary power pool is a better choice.
[ QUOTE ]
Made me chuckle too
PPP's are 'A Joke'
[/ QUOTE ]
The craziest part is that whole "we made patron powers more powerful since you cant change them" line.
My MA IDs:
Fiend Space: 211464
This is not only about pvp, but has the greatest effect there. I think it is time to realize tha energy-based Ancillaries (Force, Energy, Power, you know... energy-based)are too powerful.
In fact, you can see that not all APPs are that better than PPPs.The problem is that the Conserve Power-Focused Accuracy thing on scrappers/tanks is rediculusly powerful EVEN compared to APPs.
Same thing for Power Build Up, and Total Focus-Temp Invul. for defenders/blasters/trollers.Come on guys!I think we all agree that these specific APPs(not all APPs) are unbalanced.Scrappers/tanks dont "get their first 2 APP powers" in 41/44... they [u]specificaly[u] get Conserve/Acc(so much more powerful it doesnt leave u other choice)
What to do to adress this situation?Note that I only play heroes so this is not a give-us-better-powers rant, it is an opinion about something that needs fixing. Other opinions? And what could we do about it?