The only point in the OP I will agree with is that Cloak of Fear needs some help. The accuracy is atrocious, and the end cost is ridiculous for a power that only gives mitigation against minions.
Dark Regen on the other hand doesn't need much help, it's pretty good as it is. Sure, maybe reduce the endurance cost to, maybe 28 base.
With SO slotting of 1ACC/2-3ENDRED/2-3HEAL you should be in decent shape on it, since the game is not balanced around IOs.
Another point: With all the mitigation available to Dark Armor, if you need to hit Dark Regen so often it bottoms out your end bar....you're doing something wrong.
I have mine slotted with 5 Touch of the Nictus, minus the proc, and a Theft of Essence proc. Slotted like that I get 23 end per activation (If the proc hits 3 or more targets I GAIN end) and 812 points of heal from a single target. 2 targets takes me to full from almost nothing.
So, I can see a slight endurance cost reduction, but any more and the power becomes too good.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I get where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. Reconstruction is a poor comparison as it's part of Regeneration, a set that has little mitigation beyond heals and regeneration. Dark Regeneration is a massive heal so it's expected it should have a massive cost. Never mind that players wishing to push the envelope can easily overcome the endurance costs of Dark Regeneration with IOs.
[/ QUOTE ] You cant use IOs as a reason to not get something looked at. Many folks dont even use IOs. If IOs were required then yeah this would be different. But the way this set plays IOs are required.
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In this area I mostly agree. CoF has excessively nerfed to function in a game environment that no longer exists today. IMHO, it should be adjusted for today's current game environment. I strongly recommend you PM Castle with regards to CoF. I have PM'd him numerous times, but since I suspect I am the only one who does so, it's not likely to ever reach any reasonable amount of attention.
I have posted on the subject before, but I feel both CoF and OG should be altered in some fashion so the actually compliment each other.
[/ QUOTE ] I pmed him recently on this too but he seems convinced its a balanced. My arguement was that the whole set is forcing you to choose between survival and damage when no other sets do this for scrappers because of endurance costs being stupidly high. I still think all the toggles in this set should be lower than all the other sets because you have to run so many. Make the total cost of all toggles except death shroud be equal to say all 4 of WP toggles, then it would be fair.
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[ QUOTE ]
I guess there are so many ways to cover the knockback hole that I consider it a non-issue in practice. As Achilles' heels go, it's... well, not one.
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Just a quick note: The game is not supposed to be balanced around IOs, sets, or procs.
Take away IOs from Dark Armor, look at what you're left with, then ask yourself if Dark Armor needs a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can use IOs (But I can't afford it! But the game isn't supposed to be balanced around IOs!). You can take Acrobatics (But I didn't want the Leaping power pool! But I shouldn't need a pool power to make up for a hole in my secondary!). You can do fairly well with Hover (I don't want to fly! You still get knocked for a loop! I shouldn't need a pool power!).
Knockback is EASILY handled with one of the MANY tools available to you. If you don't WANT to use any of those tools, and so get knocked all over the place, I don't think anybody can or should help you. There's nothing wrong with a secondary with a hole in it, and this hole is so easily plugged that I can only roll my eyes at the complaints I've seen in the past.
For me personally, I typically level up on SOs and maybe some frankenslotting. On my Spines/Dark, I leveled up using Acrobatics because I was too obstinate to overpay for my knockback protection IO, and then was too lazy to respec once I had it. And it worked just fine until I finally got around to doing the respec.
I don't think Dark Armor needs a buff other than maybe fiddling a bit with Cloak of Fear. I think it's a great secondary with a lot of intelligence and depth to it.
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So just how will we get Castle's attention to even come here to look at the arguement?
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Dark armor absolutely can be made great and has a great top end, but really that is true of any set. The problem with dark armor imo is that it does have too many negatives in the 'leveling up' stage, without lots of slotting and io's.
I would suggest a few tweaks to a set that hasn't gotten much of anything during it's existence - so how bout a little DA love devs?
Here is what I would do:
1)Turn cloak of fear toggle into radiate fear, an aoe click power. I personally would put it on a long recharge with high end cost and give it a high enough mag to affect bosses, but you could have it on a faster recharge and low end cost and just have it affect minions. This could reduce the sets end usage and give the set better mitigation vs lt's and bosses. As it is, CoF is just too similar to OG and costs far too much to run for what it does, imo.
2)Have cloak of darkness make the user only slightly transparent instead of invisible, which leaves the toon a walking dust cloud. For those who enjoy the dust cloud look, add an invisible aura to the costume creator.
3)Give the set a decent tier nine by making soul transfer usable while alive. When dead, the power would work as is. If used while alive, the power could apply a low mag stun (that would stack with OG) and drain end which would transfer to the caster. This would add mitigation vs lt's and bosses, improve set synergy, lessen the ridiculous endurance burden the set faces now, and give DA a tier nine on par with other sets.
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on a tanker. numbers from mids. 3 level 50 common io's. no end reduction in toggles i see the following (with tough)... with oppressive gloom and cloak of fear going: 2.33 eps
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Death Shroud is an ATTACK. The fact that it is also a toggle doesn't take away from the fact that it is an ATTACK. I wouldn't be including attacks in this analysis. Besides, as attacks go, it is ludicrously cheap on the endurance for the AoE damage it puts out (half the cost of other AoEs). In other words, Death Shroud is part of the solution to endurance problems, not part of the problem. As for Cloak of Fear, you have a very effective low-endurance alternative in Oppressive Gloom, almost nobody runs them both, and it seems like the large majority don't run Cloak of Fear. That a toggle is AVAILABLE doesn't make it a problem.
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on the resist shields alone, dark armor should have the end cost reduced
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Are you serious? What is wrong with 0.21 EPS for 22.5% FCEN resistance? What is wrong with 0.21 EPS for your mez protection plus 37.5% psionic resistance? And what the [censored] is wrong with 0.21 EPS for 22.5% smashing, lethal, negative and toxic resistance? Invulnerability pays 0.26 EPS for 22.5% against only smashing and lethal. Willpower pays 0.21 EPS for only 16.9% against smashing, lethal and psionics. Sounds to me like Dark Armor is getting off easy. You REALLY want the devs to take a closer look at this?
Again, I think Cloak of Fear could use a little looking at to make it more popular, but I don't think Dark Armor overall needs any serious buffing.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I get where you are coming from, but I have to disagree. Reconstruction is a poor comparison as it's part of Regeneration, a set that has little mitigation beyond heals and regeneration. Dark Regeneration is a massive heal so it's expected it should have a massive cost. Never mind that players wishing to push the envelope can easily overcome the endurance costs of Dark Regeneration with IOs.
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You cant use IOs as a reason to not get something looked at. Many folks dont even use IOs. If IOs were required then yeah this would be different.
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Hence I specified "players wishing to push the envelope."
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But the way this set plays IOs are required.
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I don't agree IOs are required. I played Dark Armor to 50 with 3 different primaries long before IOs were ever announced. An argument could be made that Dark Armor gained greater variablity thanks to IOs, but that's not the same thing.
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I pmed him recently on this too but he seems convinced its a balanced.
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If that truly is Castle's position I would REALLY like him to post it. I fail to see how any stretch of the imagination could justify CoF as 'balanced' in it's current form. CoF is a staple of Dark Armor's performance yet becomes increasingly useless as you fight higher con mobs. It's bad enough you have to contend with increasing resistance to to hit debuffs, but trying to overcome it's horrendous accuracy and steep end costs makes it virtually impossible to overcome all it's problems with OUT IOs. Yes, you can currently overcome many of CoF issue with IOs, but as you pointed out, IOs are not/should not be the basis for balance.
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If that truly is Castle's position I would REALLY like him to post it. I fail to see how any stretch of the imagination could justify CoF as 'balanced' in it's current form. CoF is a staple of Dark Armor's performance yet becomes increasingly useless as you fight higher con mobs. It's bad enough you have to contend with increasing resistance to to hit debuffs, but trying to overcome it's horrendous accuracy and steep end costs makes it virtually impossible to overcome all it's problems with OUT IOs. Yes, you can currently overcome many of CoF issue with IOs, but as you pointed out, IOs are not/should not be the basis for balance.
[/ QUOTE ] I think thats going to be the hardest part. In the past the devs said they wont balance around IOs but the more recent powersets prove otherwise. Look at Night Widows, you need IOs or HOs just to have mind link up perma or to even come back faster. Bane Spiders are squishie as hell compared to my stalkers, my bane didnt get good until I got close to the softcap. Shields was pretty much garbage and many folks agreed with that. Its like because they know we going to IO that set it was intentionally made weaker. Thats just how it feels to me. We might have had a better chance pre-issue 9 to get DA fixed but now it seems hopeless.
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Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
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Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Take away IOs from Dark Armor, look at what you're left with, then ask yourself if Dark Armor needs a buff.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can use IOs (But I can't afford it! But the game isn't supposed to be balanced around IOs!). You can take Acrobatics (But I didn't want the Leaping power pool! But I shouldn't need a pool power to make up for a hole in my secondary!). You can do fairly well with Hover (I don't want to fly! You still get knocked for a loop! I shouldn't need a pool power!).
Knockback is EASILY handled with one of the MANY tools available to you. If you don't WANT to use any of those tools, and so get knocked all over the place, I don't think anybody can or should help you. There's nothing wrong with a secondary with a hole in it, and this hole is so easily plugged that I can only roll my eyes at the complaints I've seen in the past.
For me personally, I typically level up on SOs and maybe some frankenslotting. On my Spines/Dark, I leveled up using Acrobatics because I was too obstinate to overpay for my knockback protection IO, and then was too lazy to respec once I had it. And it worked just fine until I finally got around to doing the respec.
[/ QUOTE ]
To clarify I been all over this argument for years it goes way back for me.
I leveled both my /DA's up before IO's so I used acrobatics both times in fact I started leveling my dm/da in I2 before I could even stack armors.
It is one of my quest it may never get changed and I will live with it but I am to the point I have just given up leveling any more /da or /fire armor because I have to get an IO or wait 20 levels for the most common form of status attack used in this game and I have to take a pool power to accomplish it. I have ran with people when the only choice was acro and not have it and they where more hindrance than help to the team on a lot of maps as a melee toon. Yes there are ways to get it but it still forces you to IO's or pol powers so teleport and superspeed are off the table with out IO's.
I am not even asking for mag 10 a simple mag 4 would make a world for a large % of the content and it still be a partial whole for things like the Rikti Ship and KTF and pylons; some av's etc.
Like I said it is on my wish list
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Look at Night Widows, you need IOs or HOs just to have mind link up perma or to even come back faster.
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Castle specifically stated that he didn't intend for it to be slottable for recharge with SOs but was willing to experiment to allow for the recharge to be enhanceable through other means. Allowing it to be enhanceable with enhancements also allows it to be modified by buffs and debuffs. All he did was prevent it from being a recharge time like with SoW and OwtS.
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Bane Spiders are squishie as hell compared to my stalkers, my bane didnt get good until I got close to the softcap.
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Bane Spiders were not meant to be as tough as Stalkers, especially considering that they've got actual ranged damage and significant support capabilities. They're supposed to have weaker defenses than a Stalker because they're more diverse than a Stalker.
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Shields was pretty much garbage and many folks agreed with that.
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Castle also designed the set to be comparable to Fiery Aura, which is also viewed as being rather mediocre, but decently balanced.
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Its like because they know we going to IO that set it was intentionally made weaker.
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Actually, considering the sets and cases that you mention, you're simply demonstrating how you don't actually get how Castle designs and balances the sets. You're assuming that IO sets are balanced and that all of the other sets are not. I challenge you to consider that IO sets are imbalanced and the rest of the sets are. Abandon any notions you've gotten from sets concerning how they behave with IOs. Remember that every function, not just personal survivability has to be factored in to balance. VEATs are squishier than Stalkers because they've got ranged damage and significantly greater utility. Shield Defense is considered mediocre without buffs or IOs because it is a defense based version of Fire (which would be equally good if resistance set bonuses were actually decent).
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Thats just how it feels to me. We might have had a better chance pre-issue 9 to get DA fixed but now it seems hopeless.
[/ QUOTE ]
DA is perfectly fine where it is now, with the minor exception of CoF, which needs to be reexamined. There is no systemic problem with the set. The endurance costs are appropriate for what the powers do. All of the resistance toggles are actually cheaper than they should be (.21 rather than the standard .26). Dark Regeneration gets what it pays for, and, because it does so much, it costs a lot. Oppressive Gloom is ridiculously good seeing as it allows you to ignore minions in melee for virtually no cost seeing as even the hit point loss is well below the basic regeneration threshold (3.13 v. 5.58). Soul Transfer, while being largely skipped by most people, is arguably the best self rez out there, rivaled only by Rise of the Phoenix. The only power that isn't ridiculously good is CoF, but that's mostly because of a series of nerfs similar to what happened to Instant Healing.
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Actually, considering the sets and cases that you mention, you're simply demonstrating how you don't actually get how Castle designs and balances the sets. You're assuming that IO sets are balanced and that all of the other sets are not. I challenge you to consider that IO sets are imbalanced and the rest of the sets are. Abandon any notions you've gotten from sets concerning how they behave with IOs. Remember that every function, not just personal survivability has to be factored in to balance. VEATs are squishier than Stalkers because they've got ranged damage and significantly greater utility. Shield Defense is considered mediocre without buffs or IOs because it is a defense based version of Fire (which would be equally good if resistance set bonuses were actually decent).
[/ QUOTE ] I look at sets like WP and SR and see that they are fine without IOs and extremely godly with IOs where as those other sets arent thats how I view it. I know the mindlink thing was an experiment but still all it does is push players to use IOs. If he didnt want it perma then it should have gotten the SoW treatment like other powers. Players are going to use IOs to get past the stupid design decisions they refuse to change. For me I couldnt stomach DA at all till we got IOs. I refuse to take the leaping pool or fly because its not fair if your concept for your toon requires super speed or teleport. I have always felt that its every melee toons right to have some form of knockback protection while the squishies should stay vulnerable to it. Think about it we are the first line of defense for them so why do we have to be put on the same level as squishies in that regard? It makes no sense. I will continue to use IOs for knockback protection. My other gripe is the endurance cost. Again I would never have been able to deal with it post stamina if I didnt have IOs. The drain is just too massive. Everyones excuse has been dont run all the toggles all the time, but my response has been if the other sets in the game can do it then why cant DA? There is no reason why DA cant run all of its damage mitigation/mez prevention toggles at the sametime. Thats why I feel the endurance costs need to be looked at. Lastly stalkers dont even get the advantage of death shroud but still have to deal with end hog of CoF even though it disrupts their stealth.
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Spines/DA was the first character I ever made. In the beginning I shelved her at about lvl 32. The end cost was terrible.
Later when they lowered the end cost I picked her up again. Thank goodness. That was the only thing that saved her.
My only gripe, as others have pointed out is CoF. Honestly this power needs something. It costs way to much for what it provides. Perhaps all it would take is to re-evaluate the acc? I don't know. But like I said that's my only gripe atm.
Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom
[ QUOTE ]
I look at sets like WP and SR and see that they are fine without IOs and extremely godly with IOs where as those other sets arent thats how I view it.
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Sets like WP and SR also have several passive powers. Passive powers cost nothing, which lowers their endurance cost. WP has Quick Recovery, Fast Healing, and High Pain Tolerance, all of which contribute to its survivability without adding any endurance cost but provide substantially less than they would with an endurance cost. The same applies for SR with Agile, Dodge, Quickness and Lucky. To get better performance, you're going to need to use more endurance. To get better endurance efficiency, you're going to need to sacrifice some survivability. That's how it works. It's just seems worse for DA because it's pretty heavy on the "more survivability, less efficiency" side, even though a number of its powers (re: OG and all 3 res toggles) are actually more efficient than they have any right to be as individual powers.
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I know the mindlink thing was an experiment but still all it does is push players to use IOs. If he didnt want it perma then it should have gotten the SoW treatment like other powers. Players are going to use IOs to get past the stupid design decisions they refuse to change.
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I don't view it as a stupid design decision. I view it as an incorporated design decision to increase the benefit of specific IO slotting. Personally, I would have done it differently, but I would have done most of the VEAT design differently. I think they're all a bit overpowered, but that was Castle's prerogative.
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For me I couldnt stomach DA at all till we got IOs. I refuse to take the leaping pool or fly because its not fair if your concept for your toon requires super speed or teleport. I have always felt that its every melee toons right to have some form of knockback protection while the squishies should stay vulnerable to it. Think about it we are the first line of defense for them so why do we have to be put on the same level as squishies in that regard? It makes no sense. I will continue to use IOs for knockback protection.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've always accepted the lack of KB protection in DA and FA with a grain of salt, but you're expanding the discussion to a completely different place. Lacking KB protection hasn't made the set itself underpowered. It was actually unique among the defensive sets in having Terrorize protection until WP and SD were added. It wasn't really a spectacular benefit considering that there aren't any devs made enemies that use Terrorize (most likely because it's everyone else's weakness), but it was still present. DA was also the only set with significant psy resist for a long time until WP was added. It had a number of other weird and funky benefits that it still has (but are less special now) that no other set had until recently.
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My other gripe is the endurance cost. Again I would never have been able to deal with it post stamina if I didnt have IOs. The drain is just too massive. Everyones excuse has been dont run all the toggles all the time, but my response has been if the other sets in the game can do it then why cant DA?There is no reason why DA cant run all of its damage mitigation/mez prevention toggles at the sametime. Thats why I feel the endurance costs need to be looked at.
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Yes there is, and it's a simple reason too. DA has 7 toggles. FA has 3. Invinc has 3. Regen has 1. SD has 4. SR has 3. WP has 4.
Let me repeat that for you, in case you missed it. DA has 7 toggles. The next highest have 4.
Being able to run all 7 toggles for the same cost that every other set runs 3-4 would be absolutely stupid. If you really think that it would be balanced for DA to have the same cost for running twice as many toggles, then you're obviously less intelligent than I give you credit for, which is bad considering how little that already is.
[ QUOTE ]
Lastly stalkers dont even get the advantage of death shroud but still have to deal with end hog of CoF even though it disrupts their stealth.
[/ QUOTE ]
Wait? They don't have the option of running OG? Really? Since when? CoF is an option. Not a requirement. It's a bit more effective than OG if you've got the spare resources to run it, especially if you've also got some other Terrorize effects to stack up with it, but it costs more. Most people pick one of the two to run. Most people pick OG for good reason, but, if you can manage to build around the greater requirements for CoF, if can be quite potent.
... I'd like to replace the self-rez with Castle's "I Win" button.
What?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
[ QUOTE ]
Sets like WP and SR also have several passive powers. Passive powers cost nothing, which lowers their endurance cost. WP has Quick Recovery, Fast Healing, and High Pain Tolerance, all of which contribute to its survivability without adding any endurance cost but provide substantially less than they would with an endurance cost. The same applies for SR with Agile, Dodge, Quickness and Lucky. To get better performance, you're going to need to use more endurance. To get better endurance efficiency, you're going to need to sacrifice some survivability. That's how it works. It's just seems worse for DA because it's pretty heavy on the "more survivability, less efficiency" side, even though a number of its powers (re: OG and all 3 res toggles) are actually more efficient than they have any right to be as individual powers.
[/ QUOTE ] Thats where I disagree, I dont see DA as being more survivable. For the end costs the set has then it should be just as survivable as granite and we all know its not. So next arguement please.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't view it as a stupid design decision. I view it as an incorporated design decision to increase the benefit of specific IO slotting. Personally, I would have done it differently, but I would have done most of the VEAT design differently. I think they're all a bit overpowered, but that was Castle's prerogative.
[/ QUOTE ] I dont see the VEATs as overpowered. If anything banes can use a buff. But aside from that I think he did an ok job with them. It to me was a turning point in CoX. It was that you can create a support AT that isnt totally gimped on damage. I think because this was allowed to happen its why this finally bled over on to doms which got them the damage increase. Eventhough a fortunata doesnt control as well as a mind dom it sure as hell out damages them at least on live server. That to me was justification on doms getting their damage on issue 15.
[ QUOTE ]
I've always accepted the lack of KB protection in DA and FA with a grain of salt, but you're expanding the discussion to a completely different place. Lacking KB protection hasn't made the set itself underpowered. It was actually unique among the defensive sets in having Terrorize protection until WP and SD were added. It wasn't really a spectacular benefit considering that there aren't any devs made enemies that use Terrorize (most likely because it's everyone else's weakness), but it was still present. DA was also the only set with significant psy resist for a long time until WP was added. It had a number of other weird and funky benefits that it still has (but are less special now) that no other set had until recently.
[/ QUOTE ] The hell you say on that one. Getting knocked around like a ping pong ball does effect performance and survival. You cant activate powers while on your [censored]. They simple wont activate till your up again and more often than not its already too late. I have been literally chain knocked back to death on those sets prior to IOs.
As for the benefits of psi protection, confuse and or fear the benefit just isnt there at least on heroside unless you pvp. If fear and confuse and psi were used alot more pre-40s then I could see it being "valueable". Also keep in mind since most sets now get some kind of psi protection in pvp zones the benefit this set once had just isnt there and should not be used as a balancing point for it over the other sets.
[ QUOTE ]
Yes there is, and it's a simple reason too. DA has 7 toggles. FA has 3. Invinc has 3. Regen has 1. SD has 4. SR has 3. WP has 4.
Let me repeat that for you, in case you missed it. DA has 7 toggles. The next highest have 4.
Being able to run all 7 toggles for the same cost that every other set runs 3-4 would be absolutely stupid. If you really think that it would be balanced for DA to have the same cost for running twice as many toggles, then you're obviously less intelligent than I give you credit for, which is bad considering how little that already is.
[/ QUOTE ] Its not stupid to want the costs lowered considering those other sets still get more mitigation just counting the toggles and not the passives. I know all those sets get extras but again its still not fair. You act like this set plays like granite and you can never die or something, it simply doesnt.
[ QUOTE ]
Wait? They don't have the option of running OG? Really? Since when? CoF is an option. Not a requirement. It's a bit more effective than OG if you've got the spare resources to run it, especially if you've also got some other Terrorize effects to stack up with it, but it costs more. Most people pick one of the two to run. Most people pick OG for good reason, but, if you can manage to build around the greater requirements for CoF, if can be quite potent.
[/ QUOTE ] Again as I said before, if the other sets can run all their mitigation toggles DA should be able to as well.
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
[ QUOTE ]
Moonlighter, this thread is going all over the place. If you want to make any realistic attempt to get the devs attention regarding Dark Armor, focus only on CoF and OG. Anything else will be dismissed as over powered.
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I tend to agree, but if I only wanted the dev's opinions I would have PM'd Castle. I specifically wanted to hear the opinions of other scrappers. I don't value my own opinion so much that I would PM Castle on something that most other scrappers disagree with; I would re-evaluate my own playstyle and build preferences first.
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Dark Armor WAS NOT designed with the intention of running all of it's toggles. The original design was to run 1 resistance toggle (OS, DE, or MC) 1 Mez toggle, Death Shroud and Cloak of Darkness. That was it.
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I am fully aware of how it was designed and how it played at launch. Whether that vision is still relevant is somewhat in question though.
[ QUOTE ]
It has been my contention, in numerous threads on this topic, that CoF and OG need reviewing. CoF was excessively nerfed to function in a game environment that no longer exists. OG and CoF have virtually no synergy, which IMHO makes no sense. The two powers should be altered (not necessarily buffed) to actually give players an incentive to run both toggles.
[/ QUOTE ]
I feel CoF is somewhat weak for its costs. That indeed was my first point.
As to the second, I personally believe that the endurance cost of Dark Regen is too high but there seems to be a lot of contention on that point. That's fine; in fact that's why I posted on the subject.
Here's a question: do people feel that the other scrapper secondaries are intended to run all their defensive toggles? If so, do you believe the intention is for DA to be operating with all it's toggles or do you believe the intention is to manage those toggles by clicking them on and off to conserve endurance?
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
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So maybe they should add some knockback protection to Cloak of Fear. Then there's a reason to run it, and if you want to invest in the accuracy, it will provide more reliable fear effects as well.
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Angel Witch II - Chord of Souls - Storm Witch II - Princess of the Dawn - Standing Horse - Witch of Xymox
Silent Scream - Shadow Witch II - Liquid Serenade - Nebulous Dawn - Ghost Witch II -Xiberia
QR
I few things I like to add. I notice no one had mention that CoF also has a -tohit that effect enemies whether the feared or not but I think during the gutting of CoF it is really low now. Two I think DA wasn't suppose to run all of its tools at once it was designed differently in that you turned on what you needed for the situation. While invul and SR were turn on and forget but that is how they were designed . That might be whats problematic for some people to adjust to that play style. The no KB I think was cause DA had tools that other sets didn't but all of this is just my opinion.
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Here's a question: do people feel that the other scrapper secondaries are intended to run all their defensive toggles?
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Originally, no. Currently, yes.
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If so, do you believe the intention is for DA to be operating with all it's toggles or do you believe the intention is to manage those toggles by clicking them on and off to conserve endurance?
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I've commented on this several times before. I do not understand folks choosing to manage their endurance by turning off toggles. I've never used this as a method of managing endurance for Dark Armor. The day stacking toggles became an option (I [censored] a bit on the forums because I didn't expect the change mid-issue) I started running every toggle all of the time. If players wish to continue playing muiscal toggles that's their choice, but IMHO has no relevance in balance discussions.
You will manage your endurance more efficiently by running all of your toggles. This has been the case long before IOs were introduced.
Besides stealthing or examining your costume, I find absolutely no reason to turn off Dark Armor toggles, and I'm one of the nuts who runs CoF with every scrapper primary.
Frankly, I don't even recommend Castle lower the endurance costs for CoF. They can stay exactly where they are at. It's the powers accuracy penalty that needs to be removed. It's bad enough higher con mobs get higher accuracy and resist the debuffs thereby weakening the effectiveness of CoF, but to make nigh impossible to hit a +3 with CoF is simply excessive.
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I second the Cloak of Fear adjustments.
I also think the immob protection should be moved to Obsidian Shield. The defense and stealth should be reason enough to want the stealth power...
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Miserya - 50 EM/ELA Brute (Perma-shelved)
Adriana Rayne - 42 Katana/Dark Scrapper
Cyberpulse - 26 Super Strength/Willpower Brute
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personally, what i'd like to see...
combine OG and CoF into one power, make soul transfer the tier 8 power, and give DA a "REAL" TIER 9 power that doesnt require you to DIE first, like "Living Shadow" or som'thin, maybe where you become untouchable for a limited amount of time but still able to attack, being in untouchable i'd say a very minimal time frame like MoG, but make that the current cloak of darkness grafix and change the CoD to something where every DA isn't just a dust ball... but i'm open to other thoughts for a real tier 9 for DA, i just think the Living Shadow thing just fits it soo well both thematically and power based-wise
QR
Let me take another approach to discussing the cost of Death Shroud. Let's say it had 10x the endurance cost and 10x the damage. It would cost 5.20 EPS, but would also do 125 damage every 2 seconds unslotted.
I'd be ALL OVER that power. I'd frankenslot the hell out of it for accuracy, endurance and damage. And before even looking at Build Up and Follow Up powers, I'd be doing about 125 DPS of PBAoE damage for about 2.60 EPS. That's HUGE. Any regular attacks that that point would be merely gravy. It would be an AMAZING power.
What I wouldn't do is complain about the endurance cost, or say that Dark Armor now sucked 10x worse, because I'd know I was getting away with murder.
And that's what we have in Death Shroud, just to a lesser degree. Which is what I keep thinking when people complain about the endurance cost of it. You're getting away with murder and then complaining that the police aren't helping you to shoot more victims.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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Cloak of Fear isn't a very good power on scrappers.
On the other hand, Temperature protection isn't a very good power on scrappers, barb swipe isn't a very good power on scrappers, that claws attack that you can get at first level isn't a very good power on scrappers, taunt isn't a very good power on scrappers, etc. etc. etc.
'I don't like it' is not the same as broken. And powersets can have weaker powers, just as they can have stronger powers. Who here would give up the AE nature of Dark Regen (and its therefore massive effect) if it meant CoF could be, say, mag 3? Who is willing to give up from Dark Armor to receive buffs? Because I don't think anyone's yet made a convincing case that the set needs help, just that one of the powers in it is a bit sissy.
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do you believe the intention is for DA to be operating with all it's toggles or do you believe the intention is to manage those toggles by clicking them on and off to conserve endurance?
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I'm not sure about the intention. I will say that I don't manage endurance by clicking my toggles off. What I do is not take all my toggles (I skip either Oppressive Gloom or Cloak of Fear). If I start running out of endurance, and I don't have blues or any other practical way of handling it, I slow down my attacking. Death Shroud is my best attack, so that's the one I want to use, and I'm not big on turning off my survivability toggles, so I just slow down my primary.
So I guess my answer is neither. It isn't "intended" that you sit there clicking your toggles on and off, nor is it "intended" that you take and run all the toggles all the time.
And to continue restating a couple points, Death Shroud shouldn't be included in these endurance comparisons any more than Shield Charge should be, and I'll agree that Cloak of Fear could use a little work.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Moonlighter, this thread is going all over the place. If you want to make any realistic attempt to get the devs attention regarding Dark Armor, focus only on CoF and OG. Anything else will be dismissed as over powered.
Dark Armor WAS NOT designed with the intention of running all of it's toggles. The original design was to run 1 resistance toggle (OS, DE, or MC) 1 Mez toggle, Death Shroud and Cloak of Darkness. That was it.
While the devs eventually saw this would not function well and allowed the toggles to be run concurrently. This created massive endurance problems so the later lowered the base costs of OS, DE, and MC. These after the fact adjustment have remained to this day, (not factoring in GDN, ED, and global edurance reductions).
It has been my contention, in numerous threads on this topic, that CoF and OG need reviewing. CoF was excessively nerfed to function in a game environment that no longer exists. OG and CoF have virtually no synergy, which IMHO makes no sense. The two powers should be altered (not necessarily buffed) to actually give players an incentive to run both toggles.