PvP Community Wishlist - Finished Copy
By
1_800_Spines,
Posted on: 2008-02-06 19:46 in Everything about PvP
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Since your busy at work nerfing/changing things for PvP. How about some slow suppression?
Even better how about you make an actual contribution to pvp in this game and let us have selectable arena maps. Heck Id settle with you just removing the stupid pocket D cage map. Im probably asking for something way too brainbusting for you to accomplish though.
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I would settle for them leaving pvp alone altogether from here on out. They just don't get it. Leave it alone and we'll just deal with it the way it is. Quit "fixing" things.
telekinesis (noun) [tel-i-ki-nee-sis] the power to move something by thinking about it without the application of physical force.
-the apparent production of "MOTION" in objects without contact or other physical means. (dictionary.com)
...sighs...
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The "Hover" was added to make TP viable as a PVE travel power -- removing it is not really an option. Suppressing the Fly attribute if near ground may be viable, I'll investigate that. Changing how far you can teleport is a UI nightmare, and unlikely to be changeable in a fashion that would meet PVP needs.
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Castle,
Would it be possible to include in the existing UI how far the teleport "rings" actually are, so that we could determine how far we are going to teleport. Thus if we wanted to change the distance, all we'd really need to do is move the rings where we wanted them.
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I'd suggest that "2" BF's are required to "break" TK's repel though. Just don't remove TK's repel in pvp altogether, that really wouldn't be right.
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Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I agree.
Thanks very much, Castle...haven't seen an actual Dev talk to and listen to PvPers in a while.
(Careful with the nerf-bat power, though!)
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I think it is the smart thing to do. All in all there will be less yelling if he is overly harsh and then lightens up as opposed to putting in a nerf that is light and doesn't work and then having to nerf it further.
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Agree.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Yes Castle instead of nerfing tk's repel aspect just make it so you pop 2 BFs to negate the repel effect, that would be more reasonable and make people less angry (You can also go with the 1bf breaks repel approach also. The issue with tk isn't really the repel, it's just the bug that causes KB to be perma if tk is used with a kb power, if you can fix that instead then it will be golden.
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Well, that should be fixed in I12, too. A lot of powers which Knockback Suppression is missing on are getting it added. That doesn't completely alleviate the issue, though, which is why I added the exclusion flag to TK. I'm willing to grant that that was a bit of overkill, though, which is why I'm posting here. 
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I agree with you there, why not make repel have suppression?
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It's a toggle. It'd suppress itself after the first tick! It truly would be useless then!
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2 break free's would be a great start. It gives players a fighting chance, and doesn't completely neuter the power. In the arena, and sometimes in zones, players will likely be using break free's anyway to help against the holds, typically found in dominator and controllers (sometimes defenders). So, if they are popping a break free just so they don't get mezzed, using two small bf's to negate the repel affect would better their chances. As it is now, 4 break free's just to get out of repel means a lot of popping, in a very short period of time.
Now, i do realize that issue 12 is supposed to have some sort of combine feature with inspirations. However, i'm going to assume most players are going to still bring tier 1's for arena matches for what it's worth.
-Inc
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
Castle,
my thing with tk is, it's not even the repel but make it be a severer penalty for spamming it. I have seen and have been tk'd for minutes at a time, one dom tk'd my /reg scrapper from off the subway in rv all the way to the 1st heavy next to the hero base. And still had endurance to attempt to hold me the whole trip. I used like 15 bf's and 5 of those expensive bf's you find in the medium inspiration slot in the ww that go for 200k on triumph.
I think tk should just be a clicky with a long enough recharge and short enough duration that even a high rech build cant just spam it. Make it a good emergency power, actually it just hit me make it have the duration and rech of mog, i think keep it's entensity and stuff the same just turn it's rech and duration just like mog. IE 15 sec duration and i forget the rech 300sec? and still make it burn end when over maybe like hasten lvl end loss or a little more.
So don't nerf it just make it so it takes skill and precision to use it, any nub can tk you build up dom and break your toggles down. But with that timer in place, one would have to choose wisely how and when to tk because it might not be back in time to save them twice.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
i like it as a toggle, from the user, you know when it's working. From the person being tk'd's standpoint, i really only find it overpowering in the arena, and that you have to invest 4 inspirations to resist the repel. in zones, and some arena maps, you can get out of it. (not referring to KB/KD bug) If you popped as many break free's as you said you did, you shouldn't have been affected by the repel at all...not buying that story, unless you were popping them one at a time, not allowing any to stack. But if you had big one's it only takes 1 anyway.
i c u edited. 2 mediums from ww then, instead of 1.
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
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I used like 15 bf's and 5 of those expensive bf's you find in the medium inspiration slot in the ww that go for 200k on triumph.
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If you had used even 1/5th of the inspirations you did, you would've long been able to walk out of TK.
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I used like 15 bf's and 5 of those expensive bf's you find in the medium inspiration slot in the ww that go for 200k on triumph.
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If you had used even 1/5th of the inspirations you did, you would've long been able to walk out of TK.
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qft
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
not if he used them one at a time, letting each one wear off before popping the next one.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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i like it as a toggle, from the user, you know when it's working. From the person being tk'd's standpoint, i really only find it overpowering in the arena, and that you have to invest 4 inspirations to resist the repel. in zones, and some arena maps, you can get out of it. (not referring to KB/KD bug) If you popped as many break free's as you said you did, you shouldn't have been affected by the repel at all...not buying that story, unless you were popping them one at a time, not allowing any to stack. But if you had big one's it only takes 1 anyway.
i c u edited. 2 mediums from ww then, instead of 1.
[/ QUOTE ]Happened yesturday on triumph, and i wasnt solo keep in mind like i said he was doing other stuff as well. Sometimes the bf's don't work as intended thats a fact. Hell i'v been held before through a allready activated phase shift, i have seen ppl die inside hibernoob with 0 hp and bust out the ice dead after like 20 sec.
I even once got detoogled with a ton of cm on me, those holds are increadible, also most doms run mega, among other accolades, it's doms that it takes 2-3 bf's to get one hold off you just for them to restack more and break you anyway.
If you doubt this log a 40+ toon on triumphs rv when morgify-x or cerebral torture is on and let them show you what i mean lol. And actually i didnt want to go into the whole story but since your forcing me to disprove you i will. But i had my sp/reg on yesturday and it was two doms i never seen befor in the zone a mind/ice and a fire/??? so i poped my big bf's, the expensive ones they add like 10mag def for 2min or so i used 4 and rushed to get the fire. He jousted and jousted me and the mind decided to help him, so i still attacked the fire figuring id get him before the mind got me, and in beetween being held a few times and forced to use bf's and retoogle i was put into tk. Also i didnt even mention a stalker joined in as'ing me while being tk'd. They backed me into the hero heavy held out of bf's, the hold fell just long enough for me to use my temporary phase and i jumped down into the base for my life. OK lol jeez i didnt come here to defend my honor just give my input on tk giving a relevent story of my point. And to further what im saying i'll even put my name out there, anyone who does triumph rv and comes to these forums knows about Ravens my sp/regen one of the toughest, most io'd out scrappers there, when you fight with me it's a tough fight and anyone who has seen me will attest i know my stuff.
And my pattern on these forums to date is if i don't know i'm not afraid to ask, but the fact remains bf's dont always save the day, at times they seem like they focus on whats directly applied to you after it's use. IE if i eat 4 bf's in theory would give me total protection from tk, but if enough holds, immobs,stuns or w/e are stacked on you to detoogle you anything goes after that if your now tk'd the AI is not going to say they have 4 bf's still on them you will be pushed back as intended.
Also in my rage not thinking since it only shows on hold icon you can have a million holds on you and it will appear as one so you really cant gadge whats on you.
Also i'm not saying i sat and ate 15 inspir all at once lol ppl are so literal, these are used in a course of the fight i only ate the mediums all at once, and they arent bf's they were called something eles, the baby iron wills.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
QR
Hating the proposed TK change right now, not that I PvP too much with my Mind Dom...but will be even less inclined to now.
Are other aspects of TK going to be adjusted too now? Are you going to look at the endurance costs of the power now, considering that you are proposing a major nerf to it you should also make a major change to its end costs.
Also, if you go with the 2 inspirations = breaking repel alternative, please use Sturdies instead of Break Frees. A BF is already too much of a one stop answer to countering everything control related, it already stacks too well with the plethora of counters to control in the game too. Make a player have to make a load out decision on which Inspiration to fill up on when going into PvP rather than the simple choice of grabbing a tray full of BFs and laughing at control based toons, specifically Doms.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
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not if he used them one at a time, letting each one wear off before popping the next one.
[/ QUOTE ]Glad you saw it lol, i wasnt say i sat and ate my whole tray to get away, as a sp/reg i wasnt so much worried about tk, i was more worried about me being held and can't heal or mog. All i said i thought it should be more of a penalty for long rides, to be honest if i wanted to get away at that point i would have just used mog, which instantly breaks tk. I was just saying what i used on my hell ride, i usually use just enough to not be held, but that was along ride for him to still have end to do stuff after it was over.
I just think it should be a clicky, with a timer that would make it more of a situational power versus a crutch.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
Wow, what people think is fair in PvP is mind boggling sometimes.
So TK is broken because it pushed you back...supposedly through a bunch of BFs...but the fact that 2 Doms and a Stalker couldn't kill your Sp/Regen Scrapper even though they managed to hold you at times doesn't indicate a completely different and possibly more drastic problem to you?
And don't say that its has to do with skill, because frankly, the same answer could be leveled at your TK complaints using your logic.
Frankly, the discussion here about TK and the proposed changes are why PvP will always be such a small minority in this game. Changes like this make it harder and harder to enjoy PvP when you are a casual PvPer...and they are all in favor of the hardcore PvPer. I would call myself a casual PvPer...but the more I see stuff like this the less likely am I to go in to a PvP zone, let alone the arena, for anything but collecting temp powers.
I want to like PvP in this game, but I don't to have to devote all of my game time to it in order to have fun and be moderately successful...and its constantly on a march toward that end of the spectrum...let alone the divide between hero and villain ATs.
Dominators don't need mitigation from their secondaries. Even if they did, there's ice (slows), psi (-recharge), and fire and elec (death).
-Talen_Lee commenting on Energy Assault's Utility
I like that the devs are looking at pvp a bit, but why isn't improving melee more of a priority? How hard would it be to give melee attacks a bit of reach?
And I hate tk, but don't completely bust the power, lol. 1 or 2 BF's to get free from it seems fair to me.
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Happened yesturday on triumph, and i wasnt solo keep in mind like i said he was doing other stuff as well. Sometimes the bf's don't work as intended thats a fact. Hell i'v been held before through a allready activated phase shift, i have seen ppl die inside hibernoob with 0 hp and bust out the ice dead after like 20 sec.
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First let me address this. The reason why people get held through Phase Shift and Hibernate isn't because break free's don't work. It is because they ware off during your phase/hibernate, and when they do, if there is enough mag already stacked on you, the affect will take place. For example, It takes say 3 power boosted holds to hold your regen (not using real numbers). Say you are running one break free, and the mez caster has 3 or 4 holds on you. You decide to hit phase shift. If you still have 3 or 4 holds stacked when that break free dissipates, you will be held, and phase will drop.
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I even once got detoogled with a ton of cm on me, those holds are incredible, also most doms run mega, among other accolades, it's doms that it takes 2-3 bf's to get one hold off you just for them to restack more and break you anyway.
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Define a Ton of CM...I find that hard to believe.
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If you doubt this log a 40+ toon on triumphs rv when morgify-x or cerebral torture is on and let them show you what i mean lol. And actually i didnt want to go into the whole story but since your forcing me to disprove you i will. But i had my sp/reg on yesturday and it was two doms i never seen befor in the zone a mind/ice and a fire/??? so i poped my big bf's, the expensive ones they add like 10mag def for 2min or so i used 4 and rushed to get the fire. He jousted and jousted me and the mind decided to help him, so i still attacked the fire figuring id get him before the mind got me, and in beetween being held a few times and forced to use bf's and retoogle i was put into tk. Also i didnt even mention a stalker joined in as'ing me while being tk'd. They backed me into the hero heavy held out of bf's, the hold fell just long enough for me to use my temporary phase and i jumped down into the base for my life. OK lol jeez i didnt come here to defend my honor just give my input on tk giving a relevent story of my point. And to further what im saying i'll even put my name out there, anyone who does triumph rv and comes to these forums knows about Ravens my sp/regen one of the toughest, most io'd out scrappers there, when you fight with me it's a tough fight and anyone who has seen me will attest i know my stuff.
[/ QUOTE ] sounds like you were fighting 1v3...not sure what you expected :/
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IE if i eat 4 bf's in theory would give me total protection from tk
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Not theory, proven fact. Test it.
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But if enough holds, immobs,stuns or w/e are stacked on you to detoogle you anything goes after that if your now tk'd the AI is not going to say they have 4 bf's still on them you will be pushed back as intended.
[/ QUOTE ] Simply not true. Unless you have multiple repel powers working against you. If your toggles are down, you aren't getting any extra mag from your practiced brawler, or integration whatever. Also, you may lose your KB/KD protection, but you will not be repelled unless there are multiple repels being used.
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Also in my rage not thinking since it only shows on hold icon you can have a million holds on you and it will appear as one so you really cant gadge whats on you.
[/ QUOTE ] also not true. Right click on the icon and have it either display numerically or stacked...you can then count how many holds you hav on you.
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Also i'm not saying i sat and ate 15 inspir all at once lol ppl are so literal, these are used in a course of the fight i only ate the mediums all at once, and they arent bf's they were called something eles, the baby iron wills.
[/ QUOTE ] I understand, but if you have that many on you, and you can't run out of range of the TK, why not use them?
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
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Wow, what people think is fair in PvP is mind boggling sometimes.
So TK is broken because it pushed you back...supposedly through a bunch of BFs...but the fact that 2 Doms and a Stalker couldn't kill your Sp/Regen Scrapper even though they managed to hold you at times doesn't indicate a completely different and possibly more drastic problem to you?
And don't say that its has to do with skill, because frankly, the same answer could be leveled at your TK complaints using your logic.
[/ QUOTE ] No, because when all is said and done it still boils down to the rock paper thing. Stalkers arent a sp/regs weakness nor is doms not attacking just apply holds when im full of bf's. In that scenario i was the rock, they were the scissors, but if one rad or ice/cold would have came it would have been over, even solo against them success is limited. This holds true for any AT not just heroes, i run villians as well on freedom, and 3 sp/scrappers couldnt kill one ??/wp brute, no melee has any chance against a competent dom.
The way thing are in that regard is fine one at should not be able to beat all AT's. Just like boxing, Mayweather(middle Weight champ many belts undefeated) Could beat a good heavy weight like say mike tyson or holyfeild in there hayday.
It ballances itself out in the end, like if it wasnt for stalkers blasters would own all pvp, but they keep them in check sorta, things like that.
The funny thing is, even though you seem like one of the whiners that got the changes made in the first place, you're probably still bad..------Macskull on Crop_of_shaolin
http://ravens-wins.mybrute.com
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tk will no longer affect players? sucks balls for me
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The hold will still affect players; the repel will not.
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Please stick to your guns on this one. Some powers just weren't designed with PvP in mind. This is one of them and it is not inappropriate for it not to work in PvP.
Many people here are thinking solely from how this nerfs their character and not how this might open PvP to others. Taking away all the PvE designed tools that are extremely unfair against players would do much to make PvP more desirable IMO.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Break Free offers 25% resistance to Repel. Escape offers 100% resistance to Repel. I could make Break Frees grant resistance anywhere from 25% to 100%. Where is the acceptable breakpoint?
25% = 4 BFs needed to obviate the effect.
33% = 3 BFs needed to obviate the effect.
50% = 2 BFs needed to obviate the effect.
100% = 1 BF needef to obviate the effect.
Once 100% resistance is reached, you can't be Repelled unless the effect is irresistible. This will apply to Force Bubble, Hurricane, and other Repel type powers as well.
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<ul type="square">[*]2 bf's should free a player from the repel[*] TK toggle should de-activate after 60 seconds[/list]
I'm absolutely shocked that Castle posted in this thread, and it's great to see that some pvP issues are actually being considered. Amazing! However, the idea that they would fix TK by removing the repel effect is completely ridiculous. Hahahhahaha. Seriously. Hahahhahaha. TK's been broken for so long that I'm stunned it's actually being given attention now, but I guess someone finally pinned one of the dev's into the corner of a map for a little too long.
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For starters, if you have the same emp spamming clear mind on you, only 1 is being accounted for. The devs made a change that the only way to have more than 1 CM on and have its affect is if it is from multiple casters.
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Actually....That was tested, but later scrapped. Recasting powers like CM "dropped" the initial cm before reapplying it for a very brief moment meaning that for a split second you were lacking any mez protectiogn from the power and so long as any mezz powers were on you you instantly became mezzed then released dropping your toggles.
Because of that the change never went through and all aspects of powers like CM, Clarity, and O2 Boost still can stack from the same caster.
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For starters, if you have the same emp spamming clear mind on you, only 1 is being accounted for. The devs made a change that the only way to have more than 1 CM on and have its affect is if it is from multiple casters.
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Actually....That was tested, but later scrapped. Recasting powers like CM "dropped" the initial cm before reapplying it for a very brief moment meaning that for a split second you were lacking any mez protectiogn from the power and so long as any mezz powers were on you you instantly became mezzed then released dropping your toggles.
Because of that the change never went through and all aspects of powers like CM, Clarity, and O2 Boost still can stack from the same caster.
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thanks for clearing that up. Still in catch up mode on updated pvp. Not easy taking off a couple issues in pvp, and realize a lot has changed. Rest of the post still stands though.
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
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tk will no longer affect players? sucks balls for me
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The hold will still affect players; the repel will not.
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Please stick to your guns on this one. Some powers just weren't designed with PvP in mind. This is one of them and it is not inappropriate for it not to work in PvP.
Many people here are thinking solely from how this nerfs their character and not how this might open PvP to others. Taking away all the PvE designed tools that are extremely unfair against players would do much to make PvP more desirable IMO.
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No need to completely nerf it. It isn't over powered by any stretch in team oriented pvp. It is more of a soloists gripe. 2 BF's has been the best suggestion in this thread. Besides, most of the pvp'ers are suggesting the same thing. It isn't going to effect pve anyway, i think it's a good idea the pvp community gets heard on this one.
Globals - @Incursion. & @Incursion-
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Hating the proposed TK change right now, not that I PvP too much with my Mind Dom...but will be even less inclined to now.
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Amen. So Mind Controllers and /Mind Doms just lost the one 'equalizer' they had.....<sarcasm>so very fair.</sarcasm>
No pets to help distract in PvP (not that anyone in PvP bothers to fight the pets if they can target the summoner, since the pets instantly die when the summoner is defeated...) A single inspiration neuters our primary (save one power, which is smashing damage.) for 30+ seconds. No containment = piddly damage and no mez = no damage mitigation. And against any melee types? BFs having immunity periods was a bad idea to begin with (certainly as long of a period as they do, at least.) They were a band-aid solution to the binary nature of mez in CoX.....instead of working up a non-binary system.
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Are other aspects of TK going to be adjusted too now? Are you going to look at the endurance costs of the power now, considering that you are proposing a major nerf to it you should also make a major change to its end costs.
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I certainly hope so. Castle? Considering you removed a major part of TK's effectiveness, I'd hope both the End cost and Recharge will be reduced to compensate.
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Also, if you go with the 2 inspirations = breaking repel alternative, please use Sturdies instead of Break Frees. A BF is already too much of a one stop answer to countering everything control related, it already stacks too well with the plethora of counters to control in the game too. Make a player have to make a load out decision on which Inspiration to fill up on when going into PvP rather than the simple choice of grabbing a tray full of BFs and laughing at control based toons, specifically Doms.
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QFT. Put repel resistance on the Orange Insps. Sturdy's and such. So that a single insp isn't the end-all-be-all of controller/dom neutering.....make them take several to be safe, just like we do.
Personally, I'd change it all so that:
BreakFree = Hold resist.
Sturdy = Repel/KB resist
End = Sleep resist
Heal = Confuse resist
Defense = Fear resist
That way people couldn't just 'load-up' on BFs and know they can run for several fights without worry of being mezzed.
Even if they doubled up, so DefInsp = Fear/Confuse, SturdyInsp = Repel/KB, and BF = Hold/Sleep.....it would still give us a little more viability in PvP, since they couldn't just come with the classic "FULL TRAY OF BFs"
*sighs* C'mon, Castle. Would it be fair for any other ATs to have 75%-90% of their main powers effectiveness and their damage mitigation REMOVED for 30+ seconds by popping a couple of inspirations? Think about it.
CuppaJo: **waves wand - you are mesmerized by the shiney bouncing Positron**
HypnotizerZero, Psyche-Delia, Twilight Samurai, Burning Rubber, Ignitrode & more...on Virtue.
AMD x2 4600+/7950GTKO/2Gb PC6400/Win2kPro
On the defender board, I brainstormed a system of pvp "repel suppression" inspired by Defiance 2.0's stacking microbuffs, and by 15 second pvp mez suppression. This could be in addition to any other repel defense changes, such as break frees.
For each repel power, when used against a pvp target, the power could grant a stacking, 15 second duration, repel protection to the target. The magnitude of the protection would equal the power's repel magnitude, divided by the number of times the power ticks in 15 seconds. The goal of this is that after a target is under 15 full seconds of repel from a power, net repel from that power drops to zero against that target.
For example, each 0.50 second tick of Telekinesis would still put 1 non-stacking repel for 0.75 seconds on any target, but it would also give a pvp target -0.033 (1/30) stacking repel for 15 seconds. After 30 ticks (15 seconds) of this, a pvp target would no longer be repelled (but still might be held). Hurricane and Force Bubble would work similarly if every tick is hitting (i.e. target trapped in corner). If only a few ticks hit in any 15 second period, as with the usual, non-corner-trap use of Hurricane or Force Bubble, repel is only diminished partially.
Even with stuff like Power Boost and Power Build Up in the mix, the numbers will work out, so long as both the positive and negative repel factors are equally enhanceable and equally resistable.