My new Water Marker style... yay or nay?
By
Dandy1,
Posted on: 2007-11-18 23:56 in Multi-Media Fan Creations
Hmm don't worry about the nibs. One thing you can do if you're trying for a different surface feel, you can tape a piece of paper over the tablet and draw on that. It'll give you a less slick surface, some of my friends swear by it. I didn't like how it felt though 
I've not seen that book #_# However, the one thing that did help me understanding Painter was any/all Gnomon DVDs on the subject. I'm spoiled since our library has them all, but I can point out a few that might interest you if you like
yeah go for it...
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Hmm don't worry about the nibs. One thing you can do if you're trying for a different surface feel, you can tape a piece of paper over the tablet and draw on that. It'll give you a less slick surface, some of my friends swear by it. I didn't like how it felt though
I've not seen that book #_# However, the one thing that did help me understanding Painter was any/all Gnomon DVDs on the subject. I'm spoiled since our library has them all, but I can point out a few that might interest you if you like
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I second Gnomon. They rock hardcore. I've got a set myself.
Another *great* resource if you can afford it(and if you can find it, though the do online subscriptions) is a UK magazine called ImagineFX, which is for digital fantasy/SciFi artists. They focus primarily on Painter and Photoshop and have a wealth of people that do simply amazing things with both. I've got a sub(which is about to run out unless I can find money to renew T_T) and the breadth of topics and help has been just awesome.
To be honest, I think Illustrator is the worst of the programs to be using for what you're doing. It's really intended for vector work, and while you *can* do brushstrokes with it, that's really not what it's best at, and it's going to take a lot longer(in general) to achieve the same effect. Painter's probably the best choice for simulating marker, as it's what it's designed to do... and while it can take some serious setup if you really want to customize... to be honest, I find most of the stock brushes more than adequate with minor changes. Photoshop *can* be made to simulate marker(and a lot of other stuff, actually), but it requires a lot of brush-twiddling, comparatively.
I really am not looking to simulate markers or watercolors... I like the look of comic rendering, airbrushing what have you. This style just evolved like I said out of desire to see my line drawing immediately colored. I am just calling watermarker, cause that's what it reminds me of...
As for using Illustrator the way I do, at first I would have agreed with you, I hate doing vector art, something the wife is insanely good at. As we speak she is downstairs doing gradient mesh oil drops to sell for a client, my head is spinning just thinking of all the dots/nodes she is tweaking.
But last January she showed me that I can alter the brush strokes, so that they don't highlight up after I place them down, nor will a new stroke erase a former one. All with two little clicks in some dumb dialog box I never knew about and she forgot existed, cause she doesn't work like I do. Anyway with that one correction I am able to draw in Illustrator like Photoshop, except Illustrator's tendency to "pesudo sharpen" the line, makes any kind of shakey line look perfect.
So I can get up close on a file that's only 500 pixels or zoom out to 2-3,000 and draw exactly the same way with no unintentional shakes. It does correct curves a little, but not enough to change your drawing style.
I've also made custom brushes to simulate ink brush feathering, zip a tone cross hatching, and hair strands. Huge time savers for the things I like to draw and or ink.
The I found out this guy who inks Iron Man, does the same thing, in fact he made some Jack Kirby power effect brushes that look just great for explosions, cosmic rays...
I have soooo much fun drawing in Illustrator compared to drawing in Photoshop (which I do once in a blue moon, I've even found a few brushes that are feasible to my dilema) that if I could color as easily in Illustrator as I can in Photoshop now, I would never use Photoshop again. Maybe someday they'll merge the two, and I won't have to keep swtiching.
As for Painter, I'm just dipping my beak, I've played with it a lot since version 9, but only in the last few months, have I enjoyed using it for that digital watercolor look. It's not the same of course as real watercolor which I pretty much only used for 10 years...
Here's my Indiana Jones watercolor from my college days... and two examples of the few times I have drawn in Photoshop, though this is more like painting for me: Naomi Watts and Madonna unfinished
Anyway, I think I will save up for my Intuos3, and look forward to all it's bells and whistles.
Edit: ah yes that Gnomon site, yeah I've seen those, they look great, the wife wants all the sculpture ones. I haven't seen ImagineFX magazine out here, and it's a little out of my budget as the content isn't primarily what I'm looking for... though I did download a free pdf on merging traditional pencils with digital coloring for comic work. That was cool... some of the other issues though weren't my cup of tea, well not at that price, so I fear it would be hit or miss with me. Though I am happy to lurk on their website.
Okie. Ultimately, it's down to what works for ya, so you can toss my advice on its ear if it's not what you're looking for. I've gotten better steadily by having people constantly opine on my work habits, so I just pay that help forward. As always, part of the whole thing is deciding what to adopt and what to toss, and I'm not going to feel bad if what I do isn't gonna work for you personally or anything.
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Okie. Ultimately, it's down to what works for ya, so you can toss my advice on its ear if it's not what you're looking for. I've gotten better steadily by having people constantly opine on my work habits, so I just pay that help forward. As always, part of the whole thing is deciding what to adopt and what to toss, and I'm not going to feel bad if what I do isn't gonna work for you personally or anything.
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I'm sorry my intent wasn't to make you feel bad, I really do appreciate you offering the advice, but like most advice you take what works or feels comfortable with you as a whole. I love getting advice, so keep it coming, I learn a lot from the way people work, and I figure it's the same for others if not only a little, which is why I explained how I do my stuff.
Your purple layer effect was a great idea, I've been wanting to experiment with something like that. So again don't feel bad, it may just be me... I'm kind of abrasive or so I'm told, it's the New Yorker in me. I apologize if I've in anyway made you feel unappreciated, that was never my goal, just yapping, feel free to ignore me. 
Nah, I'm fine and I've got a thick skin anyway-- professional artists have to develop some armor. I just wanted to clarify that I'm not trying to push you to work in a particular fashion.
I think the purple layer idea was Sayterra's, but I totally second it-- it's similar to the way I work, actually.
Whoops my bad... well cool then. NOW if you can show me how to color like those Korean artists, well then I'll be your best friend!
I like all your styles LJ! =^_^=b Some people just do good work, you are one of them. 
Plus, I LOVE that piece you did for me.
/em hugs teh artses.
=^_^=
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I like all your styles LJ! =^_^=b Some people just do good work, you are one of them. Plus, I LOVE that piece you did for me.
=^_^=
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/signed
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I was thinking though, what if I splapped the color on first, then drew black line over it... Someone wanna be my guinea pig? First one gets the worm, uh art worm.
LJ
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*raises hand*
Me?
In all seriousness LJ, I think I can totally see what you're looking for in the so-called "watermarker" look. It's quick, simple, and lends itself well to an immediate sense of the picture being "more complete". However, I do agree with whomever it was that mentioned the importance of the shapes suggesting volume. I think that particularly when you're working with colors low in saturation (like these) each "section" of color should really convey a specific shape. By that, I mean that the colors should mostly stay within the outlines, and be applied so they capture shadows, even if still light.
All that being said, I don't really care for it (not to come off as rude). I have several reasons for that, so I'll try to sum them up for you.
First and foremost, they feel unfinished to me. While I recognize that the entire intent is spontaneity, simplicity, and speed, the result doesn't feel that way to me. Instead, they feel rushed, and a bit sloppy, if you'll forgive me for saying so.
Secondly, while I think most artists want to be diverse in their abilities, they just don't feel like they were done by the same artist. When I look at them, I have the notion that someone else has colored over your lines. I guess I mean that they lack cohesion with the rest of your work; like a different style. Granted, if you work with them for a while, then they may begin to pick up attributes from your usual methods, but I still don't think they'd represent the caliber of artist that I know you are.
Which leads me to my third and final point. I feel that if you intend to offer these as commission options, you're selling yourself short. Why? Well, as an artist myself, I don't want to be known as that guy that does lots of things, but is only so-so at them. I want to be Mike, the artist who is exceptional at one or two things, and pretty decent at some others.
That kind of sounds like I'm suggesting you try NOT to grow as an artist, but what I really mean is know your strengths, and market those. Kind of a "do one thing, and do it well" sort of mentality. Personally, I absolutely want to broaden my abilities, but I focus on one core area. I don't really want potential clients coming to me and asking me produce Dali-like surrealism, or Monet-esque impressionism. Why? It's just not me. It's not what I do. I figure, there are millions of other artists that are especially gifted in that kind of look. If a person wants that kind of work, they should go to one of those artists, not me. However, if someone wants a really kickass illustration or comic book inspired image, I want my name to be the first that comes to mind.
I guess it almost sounds like I'm selling MYSELF short with that sort of mentality, but I know what I'm good at, and I know what I'm not. I'll continue to work on the things I want to improve on, but in the meantime, I market my strengths, not what I'm still improving on. If someone comes to me asking for something else, sure, I'll do it; I just make sure they understand that I'm a McFarlane, not a Manet.
*sigh* Now I feel like an [censored]. Please don't be mad at me LJ, I love your work! 
I've noticed several people say that they feel "unfinished" but to me that's part of their charm. They have that marker-esque convention feel to them.
This is going purely on aesthetics rather than any sort of formal art critique, of course, but personally I like it.
I agree that what you are going for may be an easier feel to achieve with Painter, but good LORD that program has a pretty steep learning curve (Graver's gotten the hang of it after a while, but I just can't feel comfortable with it).
Anyway, my two cents!
Dandy1:
Hey bro, no worries... and actually you can be my guinea pig, I'll try and work on something later tonight, since my house is recovering from Turkey Day.
I totally understand what you're saying, but respectfully I don't agree with it. I think it's up to us to challenge ourselves with every artistic grubby little thing we do, and who we are will shine through. Probably not as quickly as our "known" work, but this style is still in it's infancy. I AM rushing it, but that's my nature... I should stop, slow down and pay a little more attention to the overall aesthetics, and perhaps then you will see more of me.
Also without experimentation, pass or fail, we can't begin to know if this or another medium is to our liking. If you saw the first drawings I did digitally back in the late 90s, you would think my ficticious baby sister did them out of her crib...
But I LOVE this computer + art = coolness equation we've all come to embrace, and I'm all for pushing myself on it, even with styles less than worthy or in comparisson to my more detailed stuff. Which don't get me wrong I'm not abandoning. In fact I've already evolved into YET another style, drawing in Adobe Flash, and rendering the "semi inked and flatted" final in Photoshop for 20 more minutes.
It's a nice cohesion I didn't know I could do, but I love Flash! I still use Illustrator, but I may not use it for this ill named style (once again I want to clear up that I was neither going for watercolors or markers, just that the look reminded me of some of their qualities) unless the situation calls for it, which will be a commission someone recently asked for, which I will begin in the near future.
And on THAT, I will take my time... and it will look, finished.
LJ
Star:
Yeah Painter is Pandora's Box & Prometheus' Fire all in one... I wish I knew more of it, so I intend to bang away at it more. I love, love, love the look of those painted Manhwa pieces from Korea. And I know they use Painter primarily for their work, it's definitely something to shoot for...
On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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OMG That is so reminiscent of Shultz and the Peanuts gang!
I LOVE IT! It's so Lucy!!!
@MrsAlphaOne
Member of the [url="http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.aspx?GuildID=171543&TabID=1451954"]RIMC[/url]
[url="http://www.freewebs.com/mrsalphaone"]DA![/url]
[color=red]Official Beer Wench of PWNZ[/color] Arc 452196 When Madness Reigns over Reason. Play it and PM me your constructive criticism on what I can tweak before Oct 20th. <3 U all
I forget that yer new sometimes... here check out my "City of Nuts" gallery on Deviant Art.
I would read those from the bottom to the top, as that is oldest to newest, they'll make more sense that way... (for an explanation of how they came about, check the gallery notes I just added - LJ)
And also click this thread if you want to be included for the upcoming "A City of Nuts Christmas"...
EDIT: Btw Dandy, send me the toon you want drawn, I wanna try that color first line after bit...
LJ
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
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Rofl! If this is the usual response, I really should offer critiques more often!
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EDIT: Btw Dandy, send me the toon you want drawn, I wanna try that color first line after bit...
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Okies. No time now, but I'll hit you up when I get home this afternoon. In fact, if you wanna PM me with your email address, I'll send you some nice, high-res images. Or at least as high as my monitor is big.
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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I'll respond when I stop Laughing.
For All who Fight the Good Fight let our Voices be heard.
War Patriot LvL 50 AR/ Dev Blaster
And more alts then i care to mention
Virtue
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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That is a perfectly captured shultzian rant if ever I read one!
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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Must stifle laugh as I am at teh library... can't *gpffff* laugh *hrrrk*
*snicker*
=^_^=b
I love the the look of your water marker style. If you wanna trade a finished peice of Jacobi Law, I will gladly do one of your charcters. I use photoshop to do mine, but I wanna see my new main character done in different styles. Let me know.
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On second thought, I'd like to re-reply to Dandy1 in the proper respectful way...
LJ
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I'll respond when I stop Laughing.
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I have no air and I must breathe..../is still laughing over all the city of nuts stuff too/
good grief!
@PlasmaStream
"Big Bada Boom(tm)!"
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http://GuardianForce.Guildportal.com - Virtue
Niska: Are you Familiar with the works of Shan Yu?
Nice, I'm extremely jealous... being a geezer, I've had to self teach myself all of this from day one. So Painter is still a great mystery to me, Photoshop less so, but yes the Plasma Stream piece was done in Illustrator CS2 entirely. Jtran suggested I get some felt nibs, but I only have the standard pen that came with my rinky dink Graphire 4... The felt nibs seem to be for the Intuos pens, but I could be wrong... I found some kit online and read about how to change the tips... but can those tips be used for any wacom pen?
One person suggested pulling on the old nib with tweezers and then pushing the new one in till it locks in place. I'd like to know if this is doable before I order them, I found a site in Canada that will be cheaper to buy from then mailing from the States.
On another note, I miss Life Drawing class, we had to do it the old fashion way with charcoal, newsprint, and those awkward chairs you place large wooded boards on for makeshift easels.
Anytime you wanna post some oil painting tool tips for Painter, I am all ears. I was thinking of buying this book:
The Photoshop and Painter Artist Tablet Book: Creative Techniques in Digital Painting
It seems a little more traditionally based, but can't hurt since I have done this kind of work in Photoshop, here's an old portrait I did of a friend's husband using a Rembrant painting for my palette:
Rembrandt Dave - the final's at the bottom of this thread, but the stages are in my first post.
LJ