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$10 says the player enjoys Achievement more than Exploring.
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Wouldn't that depend on how you define "achievement"?
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
[/ QUOTE ] plz explain
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either. 
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved. 
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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CoH = "The Price is Right"
lawl
"Yes, Cajun, you CAN have a pony!" - Dusk Hammer (11/11/2008)
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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If you're not joking I'll be so 
right now
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And what happens when you get all the badges???
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You're not a badger or you'd know how difficult and challenging that truly is.
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6 left(only 3 obtainable currently in game) to get in the game, not too difficult or challenging. It's just time consuming and a lot of afking.
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With one or two exceptions, the only players that I've known since before PvP was introduced who are still around today are those who are interested in PvP. Everyone else has moved on.
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As long as were in anecdote mode, I have four or five acquaintances who mostly play PvE, and they've all been around for more than two years, playing various alts. Although we do occasional forays into PvP zones, it's usually not very interesting. You fly around Siren's Call looking for someone to fight and as soon as you engage they run away.
The one acquaintance who has PvPed a lot leaves the game for months at a time. When he returns he basically plays one character non-stop, racing to 50 running radio missions.
PvP for archetypes without status protection is tedious, so it's most attractive to stalkers, scrappers, tankers and brutes. And don't get me started on stalkers -- here's an archetype whose entire purpose is to one-shot squishies. How boring is that?
Finally, for most characters you have to build your character for PvE or PvP. This is a sacrifice we shouldn't have to make -- especially before level 50 -- because you have to PvE to level.
It should be possible to have at least two builds to switch between, so you don't have to make that choice. If the devs want to limit it so that you can only change builds once every 20 minutes, or you can only do it in the base, or whatever, that would be fine.
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you have to PvE to level.
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PL and/or Respecs, kkthx.
Lots of heroes/villains without mez protection pvp, they just have it granted to them or they bring break frees, its not a big deal.
Also,
I start building for pvp right away, and i dont have any issues with pve (i dont really PL either).
My toons are as effective if not more, then they would be had i built differently.
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Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content
[/ QUOTE ] plz explain
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yeah I don't see how that's pvp either.
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The whole sentence he said, "Player Auction houses are a great example of PvP content that is typically embraced by PvE players." PvP = Player vs Player competition. So, I think he means that players will be directly competing against each other in the consignment houses. Just like if they added an implementation of 2 player pong. It would technically be PvP, but not exactly what everyone expects as PvP. It's a somewhat pedantic point.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
As for how it is PvP, say you are selling "Progenitor Goo Mk XII" for 800 Quatlu's and I have one I want to sell. I am going to price my item based off not only what the 'market' says it should go for, but also based off of what others are selling for AT THIS MOMENT. So, if I think you're selling too low, I could buy yours, then try to sell both at a higher price. Or, if I think you're selling too high, I can undercut you, reducing your chance of selling. Either way, my actions will effect you, and your actions will effect me. Thus, "PvP."
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Close to a Billion inf earned at WW. Does that mean I PWND someone?
me: My Captail gains is in your face Noob!
Player: But your selling rares at a high price. Thats griefing!
Me: Bite my shiny metal "cough"
Well I hope it doesn't turn out like that, but who knows. Really I have earned close to a billion inf. Gave 300 mil to a few liberty PvP sg's on test, and will give alot more to them.
Bill's Brigade
Light Bill lvl 50 (regen-tank) Blaster Elec/Elec/Mun (1606 HP!!)
"Have No Fear, For Blaster Bill is Here!!!"
Cool Blue Magic lvl 50 controller Ill/Emp/Ice
Bad Billy lvl 50 defender Dark/Rad/Dark
Shadow Wraiths
Devil's Bill lvl 50 Brute Stone/Stone/GW
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If you're not joking I'll be so
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Nope, not joking, but, yes, being pedantic. The point of economies being a form of PvP is mostly academic and not the idea of PvP most people, or even I, think of when they see the acronym. I was essentially just attemtping to show that there are systems beyond what most people consider and that there is plenty of room for improvement and change.
As for the "Quatloo/Quatlu" thing -- I'd forgotten all about the quote until someone else here on the forums used the term last week. Apparently, I made the same misspelling they did!
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only losers feel the need to name-call.
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Most of the time, the people with the harshest insults in PvP zones have just been killed. They need to say something to make them feel better after being beaten. Just don't let their talk bother you.
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I wish this were true, and maybe it is for most of them, but in my recent (and very limited 
) experience, there are players out there who really enjoy goading others and generally badmouthing anyone they can.
I know that I can turn off the 'listen to villains' option, but I was hoping there were some players out there I'd actually like to communicate with..... 
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By taking both elements (and both are extremely wide categories) upcoming MMO's are hoping to appeal to a broader range of customer, which is the only real way to recoup the incredible development costs involved in projects of this size. The challenge is, therefore, how to incorporate PvP elements so that they do not repel predominately PvE players?
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To an extent, I think that the answer to this question is in offering incentives. The tipping point is that the incentive has to be valuable enough to be worth the inconveniences of having other players disrupt you when you're playing.
CoH/CoV currently offers some good incentives, but they're unfortunately counterbalanced by the risk of acquiring debt due to players deliberately attacking players when they've taken damage in PvE. Debt is something that PvE players have learned to fear.
Thus, if you want the existing incentives to work, a quick fix is just to remove the potential to acquire debt in PvP zones - that way it's not so bad getting killed repeatedly by other players.
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If you're not joking I'll be so
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Nope, not joking, but, yes, being pedantic. The point of economies being a form of PvP is mostly academic and not the idea of PvP most people, or even I, think of when they see the acronym. I was essentially just attemtping to show that there are systems beyond what most people consider and that there is plenty of room for improvement and change.
As for the "Quatloo/Quatlu" thing -- I'd forgotten all about the quote until someone else here on the forums used the term last week. Apparently, I made the same misspelling they did!
[/ QUOTE ] I hope the most important thing you design in this game is what color the buildings are.
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Well, to put it more simply: it takes longer to write a book than to read it.
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THANK YOU for putting that up.
Now to take the next logical step, most authors write in the themes they like, such as sci fi, or young adult, or true crime, or biographical. These are all categories that you see in bookstores.
If an author uses the excuse that readers can read faster than he can write, and in the hopes of getting a broader range of readers he mixes sci fi, young adult, true crime and biographical into a single book, do you think that book will sell well?
The only thing worse than devs making bad decisions is the hoard of fanboys and bootlickers that keep cheering them on.
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So don't pretend that PvE'ers are a bunch of wusses who are over-sensitive. On the contrary, its us... the PvPers... who need to clean up our collective acts and start acting like human beings instead of a pack of rabid chimpanzees.
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What is that supposed to mean? Humans are and can be a number of different things. I think we all are, actiing like humans. ???
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I meant act with a modicum of respect for one another. The people who give us a bad name and drive away the PvE'ers are the mooks who are only in it to bust up the other guy's fun as quickly and as cruelly as possible, laughing the whole time.
I believe that you can be a successful PvPer without acting like an [censored] about it. Unfortunately, the most visible members of our community disagree.
I've actually had people tell me that they had a right... A RIGHT... to treat other people like fecal matter when I asked them to stop being such a butthead.
Win... just be a gracious winner. And stop thinking you have "Mad Skillz" if all you're doing is ganking an opponent who can't fight back, because you don't. Any fool can shoot fish in a barrell.
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Heh... when nobody knows anything.. everyones an expert. Isn't that right Jack?
Blaming other people... and calling the people who CALL PEOPLE names, is like... uh.. being a Poo monkey. Am I right? Don't look through the window with your eyes closed.
OP was right about everything. GG
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A PvE only game runs the risk of growing stale. Players will always be able to burn through content at a rate many times faster than a development team can create, and this creates situations of player burnout and constant cries for 'new content!' A great example: A WoW developer said at one point that it would take players as long to go from level 60 to level 70 as it took to get from level 1 to 60. And yet, within 48 hours of the expansion going live, there was already a level 70 player. While it is certain that he did not experience all of the content of that expansion pack in that time, it should be apparent that the rate of consumption is far greater than can be met by a development team working with realistic resources and budgets.
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I'm going to have to disagree to a degree. The guy who levelled from 60 to 70 didn't just miss some of the content in the expansion pack, for all extents and purposes, he missed *all* of it.
Content is not just combat. Its possible to make content that takes a significant amount of time for players to experience, provided that the players actually want content, and not a just a different randomized map and a slightly different amount of XP for a mission.
CoH makes it hard on content in a lot of ways. For example: when you team, often only one person experiences all the content. The other players see the combat, but not the actual story. They are along for the ride, from the perspective of content.
If it takes a hundred times longer for a designer to make a mission to save the reporter from the evil malta than it takes to run the mission to completion, then there's going to be a problem with exhausting PvE content. But I'm not sure it takes a hundred times longer to write a choose your own adventure book than it does for me to read every possible ending. I think people emphasize the enormous opportunities for leveraging PvP combat to create unlimited content, but don't spend enough time thinking about the massive improvements that are theoretically possible to develop engaging PvE content. In real terms, I think PvE content development, tools, and methodology are still in the stone age.
Here's a contradiction to ponder. One of the biggest advantages of PvP combat is that in PvP, the players *are* the environment, with respect to all other players, and therefore the environment and backdrop of PvP constantly changes. This is seen as a strength of PvP.
On the other hand, PvE environments are generally static, and not because they have to be, but because game designers claim they *must* be: that an evolving PvE environment creates all sorts of problems that would upset or unbalance the game. Can't have PvE players alterning the environment, because a constantly shifting backdrop to PvE would wreck PvE.
To me, this is probably one of the better representations of how preconceived notions of design and balance selectively winnow opportunities for improvement on both sides of the game.
[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Not to mention in a more dramatic way regarding RV. That backdrop changes as a result of PvP and is something PvEers can only dream about.
I've been working on a system that involves takeing back the city zones from the villains. (Inspired by GTA: San Andreas) My problem is I can't figure out how to do it that owuld be balanced in the PvE game. If it was a simple quesiton of a PvP change it would be absurdly easy and fun.
Content is just so much easier in a PvP enviroemtn because all you have to o is give the players the tools they need. In the PvE game you have to balance it among a thousand different factors and write up AI, missions breifings, etc.
I enjoy both aspects of the game but I think in the long term the OP is right. PvP is just so much more open ended and has a great deal of potential that the PvE game can never have.
I look at the PvP zones and thing they are kinda neat. They have a story around them but that isnt really what PvP is about. PvP is something the players make. I think content like that should be left to the PvE game while the PvP game should just be given the tools to make their world. RV is a great PvP zone. Bloody bay is not.
There will always be a portion of this community that will hate PvP. I dont really see why we need to pander to what they think. Scre em. They wont be happy until PvP is gone. I would prefer a more constructive debate on how to make PvP better.
I tend to look at EVE Online as a good PvP game. VERY open ended. The PvE game is extremely tedious but once you get into the heart of the player community you find something very cool. I really want something like that for CoX. It's not quite there yet and I think alot of the reason is the PvP game is overly restricted.
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Yeah, I specifically went for an example that most people wouldn't think of as PvP. "Pedantic" is, I suppose, deserved.
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Pedantic is not the word I'd have used, but it certainly isn't inappropriate.
Comparing auction houses to PvP suggests one of two things. Either some of the nifty invention salvage items and recipes will only be available in one or all of the PvP zones. Or our dev team has been buried in spreadsheets too long and is a little overwhelmed at the moment.
I would personally rather Team CoX's scholastic and excessively subtle reasoning skills were keenly focused on ways to keep the majority of us entertained. I don't think the majority of this player base cares two shakes for the meaningless PvP in CoX, Castle.
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WHAT?! The price of this IO is WAY too high! Thats it its go time bish! *flips over table*
[pvp battle begins]
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Funniest Post Evaaar..I lawld @ werk
I know Im coming late to this thread. And I havent read the whole thing. So please forgive me.
But the OP is completely wrong. Especially when we are talking CoX!! Almost every person that is playing this game spends WAY more time playing PvE.
There are so many points I can bring up, but just won't. Not worth it. Sounds like the opinion of someone who hasnt played this game for long.
PvP is just hype. In all games. Many talk about it, few do it(regularly).
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On the other hand, PvE environments are generally static, and not because they have to be, but because game designers claim they *must* be: that an evolving PvE environment creates all sorts of problems that would upset or unbalance the game. Can't have PvE players alterning the environment, because a constantly shifting backdrop to PvE would wreck PvE.
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I don't really know any developers who believe that. We look at games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, God of War or Shadow of the Colossus and the innovative use of terrain involved there and think "How can we get things such as that into our game?"
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We look at games like Shadow of the Colossus
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I would love to see some SotC style AV fights. 
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$10 says the player enjoys Achievement more than Exploring.
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Wouldn't that depend on how you define "achievement"?
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As I understand the Bartle Test, someone Achievement driven would explore to say that they did it, whereas someone Exploration driven would explore because thats reward enough in and of itself. It might be the same destination, but the reasons how and why will be different. Sort of like the difference between some who writes because they're paid (or for fame, prestige, etc) to versus someone who writes for the love of writing.
Of course, with that example, I very much doubt an Exploration motivated player would've leveled that quickly. Someone who's motivated by achieving things though? Oh, no doubt.
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We look at games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, God of War or Shadow of the Colossus and the innovative use of terrain involved there and think "How can we get things such as that into our game?"
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Oddly enough... I often attempt some PoP travel, when I play. Don't know why. It's not like I get badges for scaling buildings and objects without travel powers. >D
[edit]
Oh, and for the sheer amusement of Psyte:
"EAKS players often live by the phrase 'The journey is often more enjoyable than the destination.' They are motivated by meeting the challenges of the world, but they are usually in no rush--because seeing the creatures and places of the world is even more fun."
While I do spend quite enough time (a couple hours a day) PVPing, that fits rather well.
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On the other hand, PvE environments are generally static, and not because they have to be, but because game designers claim they *must* be: that an evolving PvE environment creates all sorts of problems that would upset or unbalance the game. Can't have PvE players alterning the environment, because a constantly shifting backdrop to PvE would wreck PvE.
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I don't really know any developers who believe that. We look at games like Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, God of War or Shadow of the Colossus and the innovative use of terrain involved there and think "How can we get things such as that into our game?"
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Give me a hole filled with sinking sand, to fight someone in. And id be happy 
Castle, I haven't read many of your posts, but have you asked people what kind of area/zone/place people would like to PvP in? Maybe some kind of new Arena maps, or start a PvP tutorial kinda mission. Like how you have it for IOs and in Breakout.
I dunno, just thinkin 
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With one or two exceptions, the only players that I've known since before PvP was introduced who are still around today are those who are interested in PvP. Everyone else has moved on.
Why go through the same PvE content over and over when you can play a new game and get completely new content? I really don't know.
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I predate PvP in this game. I PvP, but am in no way a hardcore competitor. I do it for the occasional thrill, not the need to compete. Mostly, I play PvE and I always have. I've got two accounts full of alts that I use for nothing but PvE in fact.
Why do I play content I've played over and over? Because I am a concept player. I think of a good character idea, put it together, and run. Not roleplaying, just concept exploration. Plus, despite what you say the game is never the same way twice... or three times... or even seventeen times. There are always new experiences, mostly driven by other players.
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I don't even know what griefing in a PvP zone is!??!?! Maybe someone can explain.
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Let me give you the most eggregious example of griefing I've ever seen in a PvP zone. Some novice came in and actually asked for someone to give him a hand and show him the ropes. What he got was chain teleported deep into the zoned, ganked half a dozen times, and then when his gankers grew tired, he wasn't allowed to leave the zone.
When he got close to the gate, they'd port him back into the zone. Over and over. He had to disconnect in order to escape.
You'll excuse me for saying so, but I think that being forced to run away from the game in order to avoid being harassed counts as griefing. Wouldn't you agree?
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For me, badge hunting is my end-game content.
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And what happens when you get all the badges???
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You're not a badger or you'd know how difficult and challenging that truly is.