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thats a little skewed there. there are buffs to nullify everything but knockback. and you can also get off attacks between teh knockdowns.
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Increase Density
Currently roleplaying, badgehunting, and laughing at the PvPers of CoX. lol, PvP.
Truedusk - Human Rogue
does ID actually give knock back res? cool, i wasn't aware of that buff
<<The more I read.... the more I push the pvp plate away. Potential enjoyment shrinks the more I find out. I guess its nice to know that the only way for someone to get any enjoyment out of it is to play someone elses toon. >>
Agreed. This happens a lot in games when PvP is injected into a game designed around PvE mechanics. You get very skewed results because the game was not designed to allow a high degree of synergy between the two.
The problem for me, is how many times can you take a toon to 50 before you're just playing the same tired, boring level over and over? Hell you dont need to do it more than a few times because that office level im playing in at lvl 12 looks a lot like that office i see at lvl 50 (same with sewers, caves, science facilities...you pick it, there are very few unique looking levels). Add on to that the PL nerf, so now i have to suffer through these boring, similar levels, rather than take a shortcut.
PvP was where the replay value was, and its just not appealing to me anymore because i play concept characters, not FOTM HOed out cookie cutters, which is what PvP requires.
Ahhh CoH, what happened?
Nerf Blaster Controllers!!!!
It's done that for a very long time.
But given how few Kineticists bother in PvP zones (you mean every single debuff I have works at less than half efficiency? Oh, sure, I'd love that action), that's far from reliable.
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heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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For me, this is an important issue. The idea of using Tanks as the benchmark in this discussion is ridiculous. There are only two out of five places where this kind of encounter can even occur, and in those places Tanks rarely ever seen. Tanks are being portrayed as the big bad boogie man in this scenario, when that is just not the case.
Please, lets see some real comparisons, and stop blowing this out of proportion.
What do Blasters really encounter in PvP that they would want toggle drops to face? The answer is Brutes and Stalkers, both of which are significantly below Tank numbers for defense and resistance. Brutes get Scrapper level numbers for their secondary, and believe it or not are usually doing less damage than Tanks because Fury in PvP is a joke. A Brute needs to have around 25-30% Fury just to get to Tank damage, so don't bother arguing that as an advantage. The truth is, Blasters don't need toggle drops to defeat Brutes or Stalkers, and never have.
Please stop using Tanks for this arguement and lets talk about encounters that are likely to actually occur.
After taking some time to observe, test, and play in RV, I think the toggle dropping change is a mixed blessing.
My conclusion is that it was necessary but went too far. High damage ATs (Blasters, Stalkers) are able to kill without dropping toggles, so their toggle drop nerf made sense.
However, nerfing the toggle dropping of the low damage classes (Force Bolt, Thunder Clap, all the Dominator Assault sets) went too far. Toggle Dropping was the only chance these classes had against melee characters. Force Bolt is a manditory power for MMs, and is now useless in PVP thanks to Acrobatics and inability to drop toggles. Dominator melee attacks used to be useful and scary despite their extremely low damage, and worth the risk of taking a squishy into melee. Now the toggle drop % is so low on them it's suicidal to enter into melee.
Never in my experience did the low damage ATs with toggle dropping seem overpowered. This nerf to ATs that were already struggling is too much. I would like the toggle drop %s for Defs, Controllers, and Doms increased back to their I6 values or at least close.
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...I, and many others, agree. The point isn't "100% is just fine! WTH are you doing Devs?!!?" The point is "without a dependable source of toggle drop, my chances to win are marginal, at best. 22\5% is to low"
This nerf is almost exactly what the Devs did to End drain. Even though they promised us End Drain would shine in PvP, it was nerfed to hell, mostly because an opponent with no end cant fight back, not much fun for PvP. Similar to end drain, the nerf here goes to far. It keeps the mechanics in the game so these devs who are far removed from the playing experience can say "look they still have a chance to drop toggles! all is well." just like they say "look they can still drain endurence! all is well."
Anyways, i think most of the complaints are saying the nerf was to much, not that the nerf shouldn't have happened.
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The point that DO and others are trying to make is that the whole Toggle-drop kludge WAS a nerf. At the time, IMHO, it was a necessary nerf.
Back when I could get 88% Res against Elements/Energy AND 90% Res to S/L AND mobile mez protection AND Dull Pain recycling every 2 minutes as an INV/EM Tank in I3 - I4, toggle drops were required. If toggles weren't droppable, NO squishies would have a chance. Toggle dropping SHOULD have been dropped to these levels IMMEDIATELY after the double whammy of ED and GDR. Those things made the same resists drop to about 27% or so for non S/L and 67 for S/L (That includes taking, and 3 slotting ALL of the Passives, which stink).
Toggle dropping percentages never should have been 22% when these changes hit. The real problem is it shouldn't have taken from I5 to I7 to fix this.
I'm sure the numbers will probanly be adjusted up. Forgive me if I don't feel terrible for them to wait until I9 for the fix to go in.
Nobody complaining here felt to bad for melee people when GDR cut them off at the knees.
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After taking some time to observe, test, and play in RV, I think the toggle dropping change is a mixed blessing.
My conclusion is that it was necessary but went too far. High damage ATs (Blasters, Stalkers) are able to kill without dropping toggles, so their toggle drop nerf made sense.
However, nerfing the toggle dropping of the low damage classes (Force Bolt, Thunder Clap, all the Dominator Assault sets) went too far. Toggle Dropping was the only chance these classes had against melee characters. Force Bolt is a manditory power for Controllers and MMs, and is now useless in PVP thanks to Acrobatics and inability to drop toggles.
Never in my experience did the low damage ATs with toggle dropping seem overpowered. This nerf to ATs that were already struggling is too much. I would like the toggle drop %s for Defs, Controllers, and Doms increased back to their I6 values or at least close.
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Some facts for you to ignore (again):
The game is not balanced for 1-on-1 PvP combat. Some ATs you will be able to beat, some you won't. With a well-coordinated team, you should be able to defeat any AT.
Arguments that talk about any single AT being unable to defeat a single other AT without toggle dropping are invalid arguments, plain and simple.
Tanks are supposed to be tough, that means hard to defeat. Tanks cannot deal the damage that blasters can, nor should they. Blasters do not equal tanks in toughness, nor should they. If you want tanker toughness, play a tank.
Blasters still have 30% unresistable damage in PvP, so invuln tanker resistances (27.5% max against non-s/l) pretty much mean nothing anyway.
Toggle dropping was a bad kludge left over from the arena. With ED and I5 nerfs, toggle dropping is no longer necessary.
Get a team.
Goldbrick 50 inv/ss tank
Other 50s: Power Beam, Rocky Mantle, STORMIE Agent, Matchless, Major Will, Knightmayor, Femstone, Space Maureen, Crimebuster Ako, Dr. Twilight, Doc Champion, American Gold Eagle
most of the comic books ive read. heroes considred "tanks" just wail the crap out of each other till one of them gets bored first. or sure occasionally theres an Ultimate Hulk tearing someone apart somewhere. but usually its just something like a claws/regen scrapper. now the super super heroes(aka signature heroes). like superman, and green lantern, etc. are above average hero level. and this is why they just [censored] everyone else up. and besides, with brawl, youd be suprised how often toggles will drop. although. even though i have no problems in pvp with ed. i am sad that our resistances are so much lower now as well.
I believe in quality, not quantity. also i have a short attention span...
Guardian
Main: Goomba: 50-Tank Inv/stone...2892 hours
33-Brute
Pinnacle
Secondary Main: Captain Battleship: 22-Tank Inv/SS
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Heaven forbid the AT that is described as the squishy damage AT actually have some delusions of a damage advantage!
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Heaven forbid the AT described as high defense actually have some delusions of a defense advantage?
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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However, nerfing the toggle dropping of the low damage classes (Force Bolt, Thunder Clap, all the Dominator Assault sets) went too far. Toggle Dropping was the only chance these classes had against melee characters...
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And the only chance melee AT's have is for their defensive toggles to remain intact.
Myself and others from respective SG's/VG's on various servers have tested this and our consensus was it is a much needed and welcome change. Moreso than any other zone, RV is a team based scenario. The AV and Heavys are a testament to that. If you are looking for solo powers that are 100% toggle drops, those days are passed and it is time to move on. Team with Dominators/Controllers and combine your mez attacks... it's not that much harder now to drop a toggle and teams have no problems dropping toggles.
Our experience is that those players (EM stalkers/blasters specifically) who have adjusted their tactics to no longer rely on toggle dropping are still very effective. Those that relied on them are hurting.
I would take things a step further as a few have suggested here and remove toggle drops from all AT's except Defenders/Dominators/Controllers.
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heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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For me, this is an important issue. The idea of using Tanks as the benchmark in this discussion is ridiculous. There are only two out of five places where this kind of encounter can even occur, and in those places Tanks rarely ever seen. Tanks are being portrayed as the big bad boogie man in this scenario, when that is just not the case.
Please, lets see some real comparisons, and stop blowing this out of proportion.
What do Blasters really encounter in PvP that they would want toggle drops to face? The answer is Brutes and Stalkers, both of which are significantly below Tank numbers for defense and resistance. Brutes get Scrapper level numbers for their secondary, and believe it or not are usually doing less damage than Tanks because Fury in PvP is a joke. A Brute needs to have around 25-30% Fury just to get to Tank damage, so don't bother arguing that as an advantage. The truth is, Blasters don't need toggle drops to defeat Brutes or Stalkers, and never have.
Please stop using Tanks for this arguement and lets talk about encounters that are likely to actually occur.
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its not all about blasters either. its about toggle dropping. so tanks are just as valid benchmark as stalkers and brutes
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Blasters still have 30% unresistable damage in PvP, so invuln tanker resistances (27.5% max against non-s/l) pretty much mean nothing anyway.
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So, instead of requiring 212% of the damage to kill that a Blaster does (before considering Defense powers, Dull Pain, and other power choices, which still keep getting ignored by the "Invuln r r3s1storz!" crowd), you only require 191% of the damage to kill?
This is supposed to reassure us? This is your weakness?!
Don't make me drag Arc_Salvo in to point out exactly how much of Blaster damage a Tanker can easily provide.
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heres a question can anyone name me a FOTM PVP tank? please by all means do so.
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For me, this is an important issue. The idea of using Tanks as the benchmark in this discussion is ridiculous. There are only two out of five places where this kind of encounter can even occur, and in those places Tanks rarely ever seen. Tanks are being portrayed as the big bad boogie man in this scenario, when that is just not the case.
Please, lets see some real comparisons, and stop blowing this out of proportion.
What do Blasters really encounter in PvP that they would want toggle drops to face? The answer is Brutes and Stalkers, both of which are significantly below Tank numbers for defense and resistance. Brutes get Scrapper level numbers for their secondary, and believe it or not are usually doing less damage than Tanks because Fury in PvP is a joke. A Brute needs to have around 25-30% Fury just to get to Tank damage, so don't bother arguing that as an advantage. The truth is, Blasters don't need toggle drops to defeat Brutes or Stalkers, and never have.
Please stop using Tanks for this arguement and lets talk about encounters that are likely to actually occur.
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its not all about blasters either. its about toggle dropping. so tanks are just as valid benchmark as stalkers and brutes
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From what I've seen, the people who are most cheesed off about this (and with the least reason to be) are the Blasters who think they should be able to drop Tanks in one attack chain, which is why I mentioned them specifically. Defenders and Dominators should be the ones complaining here because of there low damage, not Blasters who will almost never face a Tank in PvP. Tanks are so rare for anybody to face in PvP that it is pointless to use them as the yardstick anyway. Lets talk real encounters here, not all the imaginary ones that might occur. Saying Blasters have to worry about fighting Tanks is like saying we should all build bomb shelters in our backyards because Iran might build a nuclear bomb.
All the Test arena regulars here, answer me this. How many Tanks have you faced in the last 4 months?
I've never understood why Blasters had them anyway. What does de-toggling do, at it's most basic level? It makes a player, or one or more of their powers, less effective. Sounds like a debuff to me. The devs have made it clear that debuffs are Defender territory, with sets being shared by Controllers, Corruptors, and MMs. As such, only those ATs should have ever had them.
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Blasters still have 30% unresistable damage in PvP, so invuln tanker resistances (27.5% max against non-s/l) pretty much mean nothing anyway.
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So, instead of requiring 212% of the damage to kill that a Blaster does (before considering Defense powers, Dull Pain, and other power choices, which still keep getting ignored by the "Invuln r r3s1storz!" crowd), you only require 191% of the damage to kill?
This is supposed to reassure us? This is your weakness?!
Don't make me drag Arc_Salvo in to point out exactly how much of Blaster damage a Tanker can easily provide.
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How much ranged damage can they provide? How much unresistable damage?
Why do you consider it a problem that the toughest AT in the game is so hard for one person to kill? An AT that, by design, is intended to be the focus of multiple foes in PvP? Why should PvP be that functionally different from PvE?
Tankers, Brutes and Scrappers don't get to drop one anothers' toggles either. They never got to, except with Brawl. They don't get any irresistable damage, with the exception of Scrapper crits, which is rare enough to be a non-factor for most purposes.
Having the "tank" be tough is not unique to CoH/V. Having the "mage" be fragile isn't either. Nor, I might add, is having buffs from other people make the mage really, really scary.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I've never understood why Blasters had them anyway. What does de-toggling do, at it's most basic level? It makes a player, or one or more of their powers, less effective. Sounds like a debuff to me. The devs have made it clear that debuffs are Defender territory, with sets being shared by Controllers, Corruptors, and MMs. As such, only those ATs should have ever had them.
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Agreed. When my /Cold corruptor faces off against a blaster in pvp, he instantly drops my arctic fog (fire/cold resist). It will be nice to at least have a chance for that power to be useful again.
Perhaps the values should go up for Defenders, but I don't think blasters need a guaranteed dropper.
Hopefully now PvP will become a little more than Clear Mind/Heal spamming on Blasters as they destroy everything in their paths (though I doubt it). 
In a world where a single Emp can stack Clear Minds 4 deep, toggle dropping does have its place. It may have been an I4 kludge, but notice how they didn't remove it from the game entirely? As long as toggle-dropping exists in any form, even reduced, it's part of the balance equation.
Blasters getting 30% unresistable damage doesn't exactly help villains take down the three toughest melee ATs in the game: Tankers, Scrappers, and Dwarfs. Dominator toggle dropping used to (against the first two at least). But now? Tanker or Scrapper + Clear Mind = God Mode.
Nope, I have no sympathy for melee toons that can't deal with wimpy-damage ATs dropping 1 toggle here and there. I've dealt with it myself on plenty of toons. Make a powexectoggleon bind and buy a couple of BFs, BFD. It's not a kludge, it's an equalizer between squishy little mezzable low damage classes and unstoppable high damage classes.
In case anyone missed it earlier, I completely support the Blaster and Stalker changes, but NOT the Dominator and Force Bolt changes.
My main hero is a 50 Tanker, and my main villain is a 40 Dominator, so I am looking at this from both sides of the issue. I have no delusions that melee characters should all play like Superman and kill squishies in droves.
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Blasters getting 30% unresistable damage doesn't exactly help villains take down the three toughest melee ATs in the game: Tankers, Scrappers, and Dwarfs. Dominator toggle dropping used to (against the first two at least). But now? Tanker or Scrapper + Clear Mind = God Mode.
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Just to correct things a bit.
Brutes are tougher then scrappers hands down. More hits better resist caps. And why even bring in WD, they can only have so much resists what with ED and if your talking caps well brutes beat them too.
Unresistable damage, unresistable debuffs those are attempts to gives squishies an edge. TD is just wrong.
Rants, raves, and petty disagreements is most of what I just read.
I appreciate all those who did provide some mathematical explanations. But most of all, thanks to Smoke and the others who actually tested and recounted their experiences.
I think I may actually take my tank into Recluse's Victory and see what I can do.
I'll post my observations.
As for the current state of toggle dropping, the prevalance of /nrg and /elec in the arena and in the zones made my tank irrelevant. While I was very difficult to kill, I have rarely, if ever, been able to kill another player with my tank unless they decided to just stand there and take it. All you have to do to negate my damage is move one step away.
Perhaps these numbers go too far the other way. I can certainly see it is a HUGE change. But I expect that blasters and stalkers and scrappers will still be able to kill me. It will just be much harder and take longer. And that, I think, is a good thing -- especially if I win every once in a while too.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Antigonus,
Ever stop to think WHY you haven't seen too many Tanks in Arena and in PvP????????????
Insane Toggle Dropping totally neutering their Primaries, that's why!
IF this does go through, I have a Lvl 38 INV/EM that I'll be taking out of mothballs in a New York Minute!
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Ever stop to think WHY you haven't seen too many Tanks in Arena and in PvP????????????
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Honestly, it is because alot of tanks are used to playing in PvE. There are good PvP tanks playing in PvP now. Not everyone is a good PvP player and I think some of the people that play Tanks are a little upset about it. They did whine their way to victory though.
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Ever stop to think WHY you haven't seen too many Tanks in Arena and in PvP????????????
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Honestly, it is because alot of tanks are used to playing in PvE and suck balls in PvP. There are good PvP tanks playing in PvP now. Not everyone is a good PvP player and I think some of the people that play Tanks are a little upset about it. They did whine their way to victory though.
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Give it a day or two, and you guys will be reenacting the great regen threads of I3.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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In a world where a single Emp can stack Clear Minds 4 deep, toggle dropping does have its place. It may have been an I4 kludge, but notice how they didn't remove it from the game entirely? As long as toggle-dropping exists in any form, even reduced, it's part of the balance equation.
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I don't understand this. What does Clear Mind have to do with this?
I can only infer that, because you are mentioning Clear Mind, you believe that the next best approach after the TD reduction would be to switch to mezzing armored characters. However, it is my opinion that the point of this change is to actually require people to deal with armor toggles.
Toggle Dropping trivialized amor toggles. Any focused attention by a PvE tuned Blapper could readily disable most of an armored character's toggles. Meanwhile, Blasters were able to benefit just as well from a Clear Mind and/or Fortitude, and the smart ones ran around with this sort of buffing.
Armor toggles should not have been a trivial factor in the PvP contests. Yet most of them were. Certainly there are other areas of the PvP game where powersets are trivialized (control powers have what I consider serious balance issues in both directions), I think this is a step in the right direction.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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No my stance boils down to, Blasters shouldn't outmelee melee based ATs.
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And this is the attitude that Ive challenged here and elsewhere.
Blasters shouldnt outmelee melee based ATs? Then why oh why did the devs put so many melee attacks into blaster secondaries? The brute players in this thread repeatedly say Why should my whole secondary be negated? Well
why should blasters secondaries be negated?
Lets look an */energy, since thats one that gets so much attention.
You have:
Power Thrust
Energy Punch
Build Up
Bone Smasher
Conserve Power
Stun
Power Boost
Boost Range
Total Focus
Out of 9 powers, thats 5 melee attacks. And ZERO ranged attacks.
The other blaster secondaries are also heavily weighted toward melee attacks, except for devices. And even those blaster secondary attacks that are not, technically, beating on someone with your fists are zero or very close to zero range.
So heres my challenge:
(1) Explain exactly WHY an AT with so many melee powers in all their different secondaries should not be effective in melee.
(2) Explain exactly WHY it is bad for a brutes secondary powers to be ineffective in PvP, but its OK for blasters secondaries to be made ineffective.
"OK, first of all... Shut Up." - My 13-Year-Old Daughter
29973 "The Running of the Bulls" [SFMA] - WINNER of the Mighty Big Story Arc Contest !
- The Stellar Wind Orbital Space Platform
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Trying to PVP with no knockback protection is stupid. I encourage everyone to try it, you will be crushed by just about every AT that decides to pick on you. It's particularly humiliating to get Galed around over and over. Only someone who hasn't actually tried PVPing with no knockback protection would suggest it.
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Well that's very disappointing...
So if you have no status protection, pvp is pointless
If you don't have knockback protection, pvp is pointless
If you don't have high burst damage, pvp is pointless...
If you don't have any form of stacked perception, then you will be nothing more then stalker bait.
The more I read.... the more I push the pvp plate away. Potential enjoyment shrinks the more I find out. I guess its nice to know that the only way for someone to get any enjoyment out of it is to play someone elses toon.
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thats a little skewed there. there are buffs to nullify everything but knockback. and you can also get off attacks between teh knockdowns.