Not once, not twice, but three times...
By
008Zulu,
Posted on: 2006-01-10 16:26 in Developers' Corner
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Toggle-dropping is a terrible kludge. I'm sorry if you like it.
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Well, they're working on that too.
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Kali was the first person to respond to that Statesman post yesterday, for goodness sake.
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Well, then it appears I must have missed that little detail whilst copying and pasting the link. It is 3 in the morning and I'm only reading the forums because I woke up and can't get back to sleep. Pardon me if I'm a little scatterbrained and should most likely be sleeping and not posting responses in game forums. It also appears that I have an entire string of nothing but my posts for a while because everyone else is in bed sleeping.
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Well, in CoH, a blaster can punch the tanker's toggles off. In WoW, a mage cannot punch a warrior's armor off.
Advantage = WoW.
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Funny I read that exact same sentence and concluded the opposite.
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Toggle-dropping is a terrible kludge. I'm sorry if you like it.
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Well, they're working on that too.
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Yep.
I expect it'll require some adjustments to PVP overall to keep things balanced, but that's fine as long as I'm not arbitrarily losing toggles I have to do interpretive dance to flip on.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Toggle-dropping is a terrible kludge. I'm sorry if you like it.
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Well, they're working on that too.
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Kali was the first person to respond to that Statesman post yesterday, for goodness sake.
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Well, then it appears I must have missed that little detail whilst copying and pasting the link. It is 3 in the morning and I'm only reading the forums because I woke up and can't get back to sleep. Pardon me if I'm a little scatterbrained and should most likely be sleeping and not posting responses in game forums. It also appears that I have an entire string of nothing but my posts for a while because everyone else is in bed sleeping.
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It's no big deal.
I was very happy, though, to be the first to respond to that tidbit.
Because, you know, I hate toggle-dropping that much. 
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
I appologize first off if this has been asked and/or answered already but I just can't read all of these replies 
If you don't defeat each of the praetorians as AVs but elite bosses, does it still count towards Portal Jockey badge? I know the badge doesn't specify but was curious....
"..why o' why didn't I take the BLUE pill?"
Just wanted to say thanks for actively pursuing these player concerns and responding so positively to these and the other benefits you mentioned, regards tanks in particular. My Tank and Brute hope it's implemented to benefit us all 
Pinnacle & Virtue:
A bunch of Heroes - Alpha Team, Legion of Order.
A bunch of Villains -Black Citadel , Pinnache.
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Give me the doooooom posts anyday. These bootlicking marathons just make me ill.
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I hate doom posts faaaaaaar more than praise posts, so even though I don't agree with the current AV change, I much prefer a happier community than a bunch of doomsayers.
Most of the changes the devs have made I actually like. Exceptions are ED and the current AV change, offhand. I'm in the majority with the former and the minority in the latter.
BTW can someone fill me in on the stealth nerf revoked bit? I've been away from the game for over a month (due to work and personal reasons) so I don't know if this is regarding some recent change that was revoked, or the way stealth has worked for the last few months suddenly changed.
Thanks for the reassurance that our thoughts and opinions do matter and that you do read what we post.
Glad to hear these changes.
-Legacy40k
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BTW can someone fill me in on the stealth nerf revoked bit? I've been away from the game for over a month (due to work and personal reasons) so I don't know if this is regarding some recent change that was revoked, or the way stealth has worked for the last few months suddenly changed.
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From the test server patch notes last week:
You are no longer allowed to interact with mission objectives while you are stealthed or untouchable.
The part about steathed is being jettisoned as it's heavy-handed and, more importantly I think, it opened up griefing possibilities. Check the Dev Digest for Statesman's recent posts. He's been chatty this week.
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BTW can someone fill me in on the stealth nerf revoked bit? I've been away from the game for over a month (due to work and personal reasons) so I don't know if this is regarding some recent change that was revoked, or the way stealth has worked for the last few months suddenly changed.
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From the test server patch notes last week:
You are no longer allowed to interact with mission objectives while you are stealthed or untouchable.
The part about steathed is being jettisoned as it's heavy-handed and, more importantly I think, it opened up griefing possibilities. Check the Dev Digest for Statesman's recent posts. He's been chatty this week.
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*nod* It did leave in the untouchable part, though, I noticed. And I'm fine with that. It makes sense.
We were playing DND (at the table, not on the computer) with some friends and this one fellow was playing a psionic thief. We were looking for a way to open a door. So the thief went ectoplasmic and went scouting around.
"I found a lever. I'm going to pull it!"
"You can't"
About a dozen rolls later he is finally human again. "I'm so glad I'm solid!" the thief cried, "I pull the lever!"
DM said, "You see a large boulder rolling down the hallway at you, that was a trap."
So, thus, to my mind untouchable/intangible means "Not solid" and "Not Solid" can't grasp or touch.
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First...I confirm that we're working on right now (as in pohsyb in the next room) to add CoV costume parts into CoH if you own both games....
Then we repeal the hated stealth nerf. The reason why: many well reasoned posts. It's that simple. You guys pointed out the problems.
AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!
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Thanks, States... it's MUCH appreciated!
I'm not sure if I'm more excited about the costumes or the AV changes. 
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Sorry, but this overly simplistic generalization simply isn't true. There are variations of "broken", and different kinds of "improve"ments.
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Hence, there is no objective definition of an improvement unless it is set by an arbitrary group designated to set it for a particular sphere of their influence. In this case, that group is Cryptic's development team led by Statesman/Jack.
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If the customers are dissatisfied, and the reasons make sense, then the marketing department, as well as the wise game designer, will realize that the game is, indeed, broken, even if it is "working as designed" (software engineers in the crowd will catch that joke).
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So? A well designed game is not inherently a commercially successful game. The market does not define artisitic success, merely financial success.
Now, you mention that the reasons must "make sense". But to whom? The marketing department? Who are they to judge? The only people qualified to determine if a change "makes sense" are the developers.
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Similarly, if the majority of the players believe a certain change would "improve" the game, and hence increase the likelihood of their continuing subscription, the marketing department (and the wise developer) will view it as an improvement, as well, unless it critically alters an aspect of the game of which the playerbase is currently unaware.
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If the game design is being defined by the marketing department please let me know so I can be sure to never resubscribe. I no more trust the marketing department of a game company to determine what is good for a game than I would trust the marketing department of a hospital to perform surgery.
As to the players, most of them lack the overall knowledge to judge what will increase or decrease player subscriptions. I've seen many popular changes made in other games that, nonetheless, hurt those games in the long run.
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Example: A GM in a PnP game alters the levelling/xp gain process to make what he sees as an "improvement". In this matter, he has become a "game designer". But if his players HATE it, or find it to be "broken", he would be wise to "fix" it, or eliminate it entirely. Otherwise, his opinion will rule over an empty table.
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And? You would prefer the GM to run a game he dislikes? To resent his own game? Would you expect that to be an enjoyable experience for the players?
If a GM cannot find a large enough group of people who enjoy playing a game they enjoy running they should simply not run a game. It seems foolish to expect that while running a game they don't enjoy they will be able to keep their players happy.
Similarly, if Cryptic can't design games that work the way they intend them to and still find sufficent audience to remain in business they should not be in the game design business.
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Sorry, but that's the way it works.
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Or doesn't work as the case may be. If you want to play a game run without a central design philosophy I'm certain there are still some out there that survive. I would prefer not to.
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BTW can someone fill me in on the stealth nerf revoked bit? I've been away from the game for over a month (due to work and personal reasons) so I don't know if this is regarding some recent change that was revoked, or the way stealth has worked for the last few months suddenly changed.
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From the test server patch notes last week:
You are no longer allowed to interact with mission objectives while you are stealthed or untouchable.
The part about steathed is being jettisoned as it's heavy-handed and, more importantly I think, it opened up griefing possibilities. Check the Dev Digest for Statesman's recent posts. He's been chatty this week.
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*nod* It did leave in the untouchable part, though, I noticed. And I'm fine with that. It makes sense.
We were playing DND (at the table, not on the computer) with some friends and this one fellow was playing a psionic thief. We were looking for a way to open a door. So the thief went ectoplasmic and went scouting around.
"I found a lever. I'm going to pull it!"
"You can't"
About a dozen rolls later he is finally human again. "I'm so glad I'm solid!" the thief cried, "I pull the lever!"
DM said, "You see a large boulder rolling down the hallway at you, that was a trap."
So, thus, to my mind untouchable/intangible means "Not solid" and "Not Solid" can't grasp or touch.
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Villians can once again shake their fists in rage at the spy infiltrator again!
"minnnion get me The File"
minnion scurries off "Sur its gone!"
mastermin stormes to the filecabnet and loooks around its gone, rage bilds as he shakes his fist at the celing "Darn your James bond DAMN YOU!"
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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And? You would prefer the GM to run a game he dislikes? To resent his own game? Would you expect that to be an enjoyable experience for the players?
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When the GM charges you to play his game he gives up all rightss, privilanges, and obligations to build a game only he likes unless he wants to give up the green backs, once you charge someon its theirs not your any more.
AE # 67087: Journey through the Looking Glass - Save the World
LLX VirtueVerse! - Check out my crazy Toons
This is the size of group that we have balanced AVs for, 6.
-Positron 06/07/06 07:27 PM
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When the GM charges you to play his game he gives up all rightss, privilanges, and obligations to build a game only he likes unless he wants to give up the green backs, once you charge someon its theirs not your any more.
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Nope. Don't agree.
I have run numerous live action role-playing games where I was required to charge in order to cover site fees.
I surrendered NO rights. There were times when I had large numbers of players asking me to make certain changes I stronglyu opposed.
My reply was always the same:
"I'm sorry, but I would not feel comfortable running a game under those parameters. So I am not going to. If you would prefer to run a game under those circumstances and the majority of the players would prefer to play your game I'll cease running mine."
Edit: And, legally intellectual property is not surrendered with payment. You pay to play this game the same way "buying" a CD only legally entitles you to use the music on it in certain ways.
This is awesome States! Thanks Thanks and Thanks.
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AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
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Can add a BIG BIG Request:
Can you make a QoL thing so that when you except a mission you can clearly see that AV is possible with a large enough team. Just simply adding color text to the AVs name would be sweet.
In general I solo some of my easy mission (unless invited to a team - I like teaming, but I also like staying in character) and then when I get to an AV I like to call out my SG buddies and we can get together to take him down.
If you just make a change without any notification I will never no when I miss an AV that I could be teaming up with my buddies for.
Right now its real easy. I run a mission and if I see an AV I put him on hold till my SG buddies and I can get together.
Also we really need some QoL on contacts so we know what Lvl missions they hand out. Nothing worse then OverLVLing some plot points waiting for your SG buddies to play, when you could just as easily play your backup toon.
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Can you make a QoL thing so that when you except a mission you can clearly see that AV is possible with a large enough team. Just simply adding color text to the AVs name would be sweet.
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Thanks Ice_Hot, same point I've been making all alone.
It's occasionally nice when someone conclusively proves I'm not a minority of one
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And I'm proposing a way neither of us will have this problem. By marking, clearly and explicity, every mission that can spawn an AV so that everyone has a clear choice whether they get to face an AV or not.
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Well, that I can get behind.
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This means no suppression either, right? That would incur most of the same problems the original nerf brought, so I hope we're sticking with stealth as-is.
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If you read Statesman's comment on it, yes supression of stealth will be coming in a future patch. They will be pulling the current method so they can code supression in.
Its only being pulled because otherwise idiots would use group and castable invisibility abilities to grief and harass players.
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Fix for that? The ability to unbuff yourself from a teammates buff.
Great changes! Thank you!!
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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AND now...we're changing the way Archvillains spawn. A ton of forum goers disliked adding so many AV's into missions a while back...so we've come up with a solution. If the team size and mission difficulty are ABOVE a certain level, an Archvillain spawns. Below that, players will face only an Elite Boss. If the mission is set on the first two levels of difficulty, it takes 4 heroes or more to spawn an Arch Villain. On the third level, 3 heroes or more. On the fourth level, 2 heroes. On the highest (Invincible), a solo hero will spawn an AV. Note this works in BOTH City of Heroes and Villains.
In order to incentivize larger teams, Positron is going to add a bonus to AV rewards!
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This is good.. Finally a change for the better. Hopefully more come into effect soon and I can return from my forced sabbatical. When all the game offers is combat and you can't do that solo, there is a problem.
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I mean, I really don't care how skilled you are, your .44 bullets are not going to hit 10x harder than someone else's .44 bullets.
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No, but someone with the skill to reliably deliver that bullet to your head is far more likely to kill you than someone who's random spray is going to hit you in the arm instead.
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I mean, I really don't care how skilled you are, your .44 bullets are not going to hit 10x harder than someone else's .44 bullets.
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No, but someone with the skill to reliably deliver that bullet to your head is far more likely to kill you than someone who's random spray is going to hit you in the arm instead.
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Except that bosses and lt's have actually had their accuracy reduced while minions were left alone.
Really, it's a game mechanic, nothing more. As Kali said, it doesn't require a "realistic" explanation, it's just the game's shortcut to making tougher opponents tougher.
Mind you, having a Hellion boss pull out a bazooka instead of a capgun with uber-damage *would* be interesting.
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You might not like stealth suppression, but the exploit is there, and it needs to be dealt with somehow. If not suppression, what else? Throw out a superior solution if you don't like it.
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No XP for glowies. Exploit closed.
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Toggle-dropping is a terrible kludge. I'm sorry if you like it.
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Well, they're working on that too.
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Kali was the first person to respond to that Statesman post yesterday, for goodness sake.