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I love how the idea that having heals and buffs causing aggro somehow translates to "crippling the ATs with buffs and heals." Clearly, all kinds of actions already draw aggro, and I believe buffing and healing draws some as well (but not as much as pure damage).
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You are correct Kali - buffing already draws aggro and different Groups aggro differently - Freaks have buffing very low on their list and you have to work hard to draw aggro by healing in the vicinity of a Freak but other groups like the old 5th Column (I'm not sure whether the Council has the same aggro priorities) would aggro very strongly on a buffing toon.
I noticed all this when Taunt was single target and I had to work harder to keep the aggro (hence talking about the 5th) but with the changes to Taunt it is a lot harder to notice who is aggroing on what because Taunt overides all.
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I love how the idea that having heals and buffs causing aggro somehow translates to "crippling the ATs with buffs and heals." Clearly, all kinds of actions already draw aggro, and I believe buffing and healing draws some as well (but not as much as pure damage).
[/ QUOTE ]
You are correct Kali - buffing already draws aggro and different Groups aggro differently - Freaks have buffing very low on their list and you have to work hard to draw aggro by healing in the vicinity of a Freak but other groups like the old 5th Column (I'm not sure whether the Council has the same aggro priorities) would aggro very strongly on a buffing toon.
I noticed all this when Taunt was single target and I had to work harder to keep the aggro (hence talking about the 5th) but with the changes to Taunt it is a lot harder to notice who is aggroing on what because Taunt overides all.
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The very first time I went to the Hollows I went as a Defender with my usual team. The pre-Invinc tank went and smacked some trolls and then I preceeded to heal him. In doing so I pulled ALL the aggro and face-planted immediately.
They did re-tune the Hollows and I've not experienced anything like that since.
This is a song about a super hero named Tony. Its called Tony's theme.
Jagged Reged: 23/01/04
Ummm healer agro has always been in the game (never noticed buffs drawing agro before tho (although debuffs certainly will)).
We had a heckuva time keeping our Emp/Elect Defender alive in fights where he'd have to heal a lot (larger missions and TFs come to mind). This was earlier on in the game (L10-L30).
I don't know if buffing draws aggro in the game presently, although I can see the reasoning for why it should. But I will note that all else being equal, mobs will attack a Defender before a Tanker. The base AI for the mobs is to attack the "weakest" enemy (I think it defines "weakest" by HP, but I'm not sure). Of course, this is quickly overriden by damage, taunt, & the like, so the behavior isn't easy to observe.
But I can recall an instance that demonstrates it. I was duoing on my Tanker with a Blaster. I was leading & rounded a corner, where 2 mobs saw me & headed in my direction. Simultaneously the Blaster came up, rounding the corner. As soon as the mobs had LoS on the Blaster, they both switched aggro & made a beeline for my partner instead of me. Since neither of us had attacked them, the mobs were just following their base AI, but clearly chose to forgo the nearer original target (me) & go for the farther (but "weaker") target. Since I didn't have Taunt, I moved to intercept. Then apparently Invincibility pulsed & both mobs immediately switched back to aggro on me before I could even get a melee attack in. After the (short) battle, the Blaster (a much more experienced player than I) told me that this was typical AI behavior, but was pleased that Invincibility's base taunt was enough to override the AI.
Of course, this seems only to matter in the absence of any aggro-generating activity. Once the fight is on, a mob will almost always have someone generating aggro on it. But the base AI is to go after the weakest member of the party that a mob can see, so Defenders already do have something to worry about. 
Liberty
Mister Mass - 50 Inv/SS/NRG Mut Tank [1236]
Doc Willpower - 50 Grav/FF/Psi Mag Controller
Baron Wonder - 50 SS/Elec/Mu Mag Brute
Sound Bight - 50 Son/Son/Mu Tech Corrupter
Really? I never noticed something like this even tho I duo with a D3 most of the time (prob since I'm always the first in). His debuffs generate aggro of course. But we'll have to try walking toward a spawn side by side and see who they'll attack first (without performing an aggro generating activity). Interesting...
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I don't know if buffing draws aggro in the game presently, although I can see the reasoning for why it should. But I will note that all else being equal, mobs will attack a Defender before a Tanker. The base AI for the mobs is to attack the "weakest" enemy (I think it defines "weakest" by HP, but I'm not sure). Of course, this is quickly overriden by damage, taunt, & the like, so the behavior isn't easy to observe.
But I can recall an instance that demonstrates it. I was duoing on my Tanker with a Blaster. I was leading & rounded a corner, where 2 mobs saw me & headed in my direction. Simultaneously the Blaster came up, rounding the corner. As soon as the mobs had LoS on the Blaster, they both switched aggro & made a beeline for my partner instead of me. Since neither of us had attacked them, the mobs were just following their base AI, but clearly chose to forgo the nearer original target (me) & go for the farther (but "weaker") target. Since I didn't have Taunt, I moved to intercept. Then apparently Invincibility pulsed & both mobs immediately switched back to aggro on me before I could even get a melee attack in. After the (short) battle, the Blaster (a much more experienced player than I) told me that this was typical AI behavior, but was pleased that Invincibility's base taunt was enough to override the AI.
Of course, this seems only to matter in the absence of any aggro-generating activity. Once the fight is on, a mob will almost always have someone generating aggro on it. But the base AI is to go after the weakest member of the party that a mob can see, so Defenders already do have something to worry about.
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I'm not really sure if the game works like that...but I have noticed on occasions where I was tanking after the taunt changes and i wondered, "why in the world is the empath defender dying? He isn't shooting at anyone."
That WOULD explain why but confirmation from the Devs would be nice I don't want to assume how the AI works.
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I don't know if buffing draws aggro in the game presently, although I can see the reasoning for why it should. But I will note that all else being equal, mobs will attack a Defender before a Tanker. The base AI for the mobs is to attack the "weakest" enemy (I think it defines "weakest" by HP, but I'm not sure). Of course, this is quickly overriden by damage, taunt, & the like, so the behavior isn't easy to observe.
But I can recall an instance that demonstrates it. I was duoing on my Tanker with a Blaster. I was leading & rounded a corner, where 2 mobs saw me & headed in my direction. Simultaneously the Blaster came up, rounding the corner. As soon as the mobs had LoS on the Blaster, they both switched aggro & made a beeline for my partner instead of me. Since neither of us had attacked them, the mobs were just following their base AI, but clearly chose to forgo the nearer original target (me) & go for the farther (but "weaker") target. Since I didn't have Taunt, I moved to intercept. Then apparently Invincibility pulsed & both mobs immediately switched back to aggro on me before I could even get a melee attack in. After the (short) battle, the Blaster (a much more experienced player than I) told me that this was typical AI behavior, but was pleased that Invincibility's base taunt was enough to override the AI.
Of course, this seems only to matter in the absence of any aggro-generating activity. Once the fight is on, a mob will almost always have someone generating aggro on it. But the base AI is to go after the weakest member of the party that a mob can see, so Defenders already do have something to worry about.
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I'm not really sure if the game works like that...but I have noticed on occasions where I was tanking after the taunt changes and i wondered, "why in the world is the empath defender dying? He isn't shooting at anyone."
That WOULD explain why but confirmation from the Devs would be nice I don't want to assume how the AI works.
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Combat happens so fast on teams that I'm on that I never really noticed it before. Usually when I get aggro "leaks" its because of some action taken by another team member. This would be interesting to try though. Who would they rush to first? The Defender, Blaster or Controller?
Shell game: Arc_ID:417344: It can't be good for humanity if the Circle of Thorns, Banished Pantheon and The Vahzilok are making deals.
A Final Solution: Arc_ID:402587: Earth is under stress. Every being she has spawned and some she hasn't want to possess her. Some of her children believe they have a way to put a stop to this and bring a peace.
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His one posted test involved using the broken version of Invincibility. He also completely glosses over the fact that when buffed, any AT can Tank, so what then is so special about Tanks?
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The goal of the game is to make sure there isn't an ideal team composition. So, yes, a Scrapper, with buffs, can tank, but not as well as a Tanker. Why? Because 1) a Tanker starts with higher resistances/defenses and 2) he has Punchvoke and thus can manage the aggro better.
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Here we have the guy who made this game, yet who does not know what the hell he's talking about because he's never played a tank. Oh sure, he's made a char once, toyed with it for a few minutes, but he's never played a tank (1-50).
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Re (1): doesn't matter, Defender and Controller buffs are so strong, and the differnece between Scrappers and Tankers defenses is so narrow that when viewed in terms of buffs that can be applied, the difference becomes a non-issue. When it takes just as much buffing and/or healing to keep a Scrapper alive to accomplish the same task, which is where the game is right now, the difference in initial values and caps become meaningless. So the Scrapper becomes the better choice because they can contribute more damage.
Re (2): But the question isn't does he manage agro better, it becomes does the fact that the Tanker can manage agro better matter. And the answer again is the fact that he can becomes meaningless.
It is true that pre-I5 a Tanker may have overshadowed both Controllers and Defenders too much. But now Controllers and Defenders overshadow Tankers too much, and are also capable of making other ATs overshadow Tankers too much.
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Here we have a player who's taken the time to actually investigate almost every aspect of tanks, who knows what he's talking about, yet is consistantly ignored by devs because the devs think they know better. They designed the game, but their egos blind them to realizing that players like this one know the game better than they do.
And so the unrelenting frustration of trying to get Statesman to see past his own nose continues.
Well now...
Let's remember that Statesman and the other devs (e.g. Geko, Castle) can tell you better than any player can, how the game is designed to work -- that is, how they intend it to play. They can even tell you about how it works under their test conditions, because I'm sure they've tested it.
What players know better is how the game actually plays under real gameplay conditions rather than in theory or in a manufactured test.
And so, the design is that the game should work as Statesman says. But the reality confronted by the players is not matching the design.
And you are right, that the only way to see this, is for them to get off their internal test box, and join live servers and play, not with each other, but with real groups of regular players.
There's a problem of course. If they go in as devs (i.e. known) they will not be able to get "normal" play out of the players for obvious reasons. If they go in "incognito" they will get normal play, but, there are ethical concerns (i.e., they could be accused of "spying" on the player base). So even that is not as simple as it sounds.
Some good time playing on the live servers, even if it's just soloing or grouping with other devs, would be well spent though, I think.
F
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There's a problem of course. If they go in as devs (i.e. known) they will not be able to get "normal" play out of the players for obvious reasons. If they go in "incognito" they will get normal play, but, there are ethical concerns (i.e., they could be accused of "spying" on the player base). So even that is not as simple as it sounds.
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They already play incognito with the playerbase, mostly on pickups. This was noted by States himself on the "Ask Statesman"
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They already play incognito with the playerbase, mostly on pickups. This was noted by States himself on the "Ask Statesman"
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Clearly, they don't do it enough. Playing for an afternoon on a random template != sticking with, say, a fire/ice tanker for 20 levels straight.
F
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Let's remember that Statesman and the other devs (e.g. Geko, Castle) can tell you better than any player can, how the game is designed to work -- that is, how they intend it to play. They can even tell you about how it works under their test conditions, because I'm sure they've tested it.
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IF we accept this, then Invulnerability is fine. We have Statesman's view of acceptable tanking in his own words from an in game experience. Just to remind you
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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...
Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster
We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.
End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.
Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.
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And there you have the now oft repeated story of Statesman's Tanking. From the tone of it, he is perfectly happy with the way he performed his tanking duties.
So far, not a single post that I have seen has said, "Yup, that sounds about right. That's a pretty good tanking example."
IF we accepted this as the "Tanker Standard" then I say we just eliminate the AT, because that level of performance is so low that the AT is simply an xp leech. Not only that, a lot more nerfing has to be done to actually get tankers to perform at such a low level.
Honestly, I'm curious if any of the devs have posted their specific experiences playing any other AT, and how close it matched player expectations for the AT.
Yeah but Spirit...
That's one mission.
How would he feel if he had to play that character for 3 weeks straight, mission after mission. Would he get tired of how it played, or would he keep enjoying it? We don't know because, so far as I know, he has not tried any such thing.
One mission can't tell you how an AT plays. It gave him a still-shot. We have an entire 2-hour movie. Who has a better sense of the story?
My point was, the devs can tell you what they intended. We can say whether what was intended, seems to be how it actually plays.
F
But the mission went as he expected it to play out.
For all I know, he had a blast doing that. He didn't say.
You were talking about design. The AT worked as he envisioned it.
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How would he feel if he had to play that character for 3 weeks straight, mission after mission. Would he get tired of how it played, or would he keep enjoying it? We don't know because, so far as I know, he has not tried any such thing.
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What you are now arguing is that the design may in fact be flawed, which is a different thing.
The design spec is right there though.
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Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.
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He emphasized it
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As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.
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That last sentence was key to me, and this has led me to the "Robin the Boy Wonder" school of tanking. "THE TEAM WILL COME TO THE TANKER'S AID" I am the distraction, allowing the real heroes in the group to go and take the villains down. Sure, robin can handles basic stuff alone, but when it comes to the big guys, well, he's there to be the monkey wrench.
I've gone to the medicine pool, since it was clear I needed healing, and couldn't always count on a healer being around. I take the alpha, move so that L.O.S. is blocked, heal up, and then taunt away where it seems most needed, or use heal other if I think I can get away with it. As in invuln tank I can often stand up to more, if things are primarily S/L. But if they aren't, and I don't have a defender around to bump me up, well, you have to know your limits.
Is this a good enough role for an AT, or am I playing in a fashion that isn't optimal, I don't know. For me it's sort of an experiment.
However, my other characters all feel a lot more "Super."
Spiritwrath, as annoyed as I am with Statesman's idea of tanking that you quoted, there is some validity to it. Given a more-or-less balanced team, a Tanker shouldn't need to hold more than 1/3rd of the aggro. A Controller can easily lock down 1/3rd himself & a Scrapper & Blaster can easily handle another 1/3rd of the spawn, especially with Defender support. So on a balanced team, the Tanker is only left with 1/3rd for himself. It only makes good strategic sense to take those that can cause the most problems for the squishies or else the ones that the Tanker can handle best himself. So Statesman's handling of the Carnie Strongmen makes a certain sense, even if it seems a bit lame. 
But as Tankers have endlessly noted since Statesman posted his example, this just isn't much of a role for an AT. And the problem is that the Devs just can't see this. 
Liberty
Mister Mass - 50 Inv/SS/NRG Mut Tank [1236]
Doc Willpower - 50 Grav/FF/Psi Mag Controller
Baron Wonder - 50 SS/Elec/Mu Mag Brute
Sound Bight - 50 Son/Son/Mu Tech Corrupter
I don't know if anyone said this but I think if he wants to catch
exactly how a Tanker should be he should really just concentrate on four words that when I heard them just summed up everything tanking was about....and grats to the first person who used it......
"FIRST IN.....LAST OUT"
Okay, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That locking down one/third of the spawn is enough for a Controller, but not enough for a Tanker? If it isn't enough for a tanker, why not?
Remember, tanker secondaries bring damage to the table, while Controllers bring more defense to a team via the "defender lite" secondaries.
Tankers simply aren't cool. It's as simple as that. What a controller does that is distinctive to a controller is visually distinctive for the most part, and then there are pets. Mind controllers get Mass Confuse, and get a good set of group lockdown tools.
Damage is inherently cool, and is REQUIRED for progress in the game. Melee is cool, tanks get that, but don't look cooler than scrappers, and do less damage than scrappers.
Tankers CAN take more than scrappers (for the most part, there are problems with Fire now when compared with scrappers that can boost hps), but is it so much more that they LOOK COOL doing it? My verdict is no. Sure, I can taunt, take the alpha, go and heal up, and come back for more but that just isn't very "Cool" from the perspective of a heroic game. Running off should not be a TANKER thing to do.
Stone tankers are the exception, and they look cool, because they are taking all the damage. Bombs, bullets, fire, negative energy, energy, and while psi might give them pause, basically nothing can stop their plodding advance. However, they SUCK for damage and mobility.
Tankers get "Aggro tools," meaning Taunt and Punchvoke (Gauntlet). Whee. I still maintain that both of these tools actually work AGAINST many tankers, because it becomes too easy to draw TOO MUCH aggro. Faceplanting is NOT cool.
Conceptually, I don't mind the idea of handling a portion of the spawn per se, but I damn well better look cool doing it.
The closets I can come to looking cool doing it is through secondaries.
Here's an idea for changing villain behavior. I want villains to become "ENRAGED" and get a little "Enraged" notification if we hold aggro from a boss or AV for a set amount of time. Call it 15 seconds for the sake of argument. An "ENRAGED" Villain will obviously only attack the Tanker, but will also suffer an accuracy debuff, because they are so angry with said tanker. And for goodness sake, if tankers are the masters of aggro management, they should have some single target tool. I'd say placate is a BETTER aggro management tool than taunt, but I also see that it isn't a "Tank-like" element.
There are plenty of options out there, but what is being implemented is not very interesting.
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"FIRST IN.....LAST OUT"
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For the most part, this motto means "unbalanced," or "Unkillable." Granite achieves this, but now the question is do you want Granite type penalties to achieve this vision?
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Okay, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That locking down one/third of the spawn is enough for a Controller, but not enough for a Tanker? If it isn't enough for a tanker, why not?
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I think the problem with it is, that controllers can do more than just lock down 1/3 of the mobs. A *lot* more. I think of my illusion controller friend (I have not ever played a controller past level 10 or so). He got to 50... Illus/Rad. In a typical go at a large spawn:
1. He group invises us (= buffs us)
2. He accel matabolizes us (= buffs us even more)
3. He summons a pet that follows him around.
4. He turns invisible, runs into the middle of the spawn, and flashes them, locking (let's say for argument's sake) 1/3 of them down. His pet(s) that are following him, now go after a few more with an AOE etc.
5. He heals and single-target holds as needed.
Meanwhile, as a tanker, what can I bring to the table?
1. Lock down 1/3 of the mobs and...
....?
Do a little damage? Not enough to be worth even mentioning, really. Beyond that, what do I do.
The problem is the controller can lock down 1/3 of the mobs plus do a bunch more things for the team, including occupying another chunk beyond his 1/3 with pets and single-target lockdowns. All with zero (or near zero) chance of aggroing because he holds (aggro = zero during the hold) or his pet gets the aggro.
Meanwhile, at best I can lock down, and slightly damage, the guys "stuck" to my tanker.
This is why I think tankers are complaning. The only thing they could do was keep things stuck to them, so when keeping things stuck to them becomes hard or less effective, it's a major nerf.
The controller meanwhile, going from full spawn to 1/3 spawn lockdown, still has tons of other stuff he can do.
F
And there's the real problem.
My friend with the fire troller can lock down a third of the spawn ( and the mobs are dying during the hold due to DoT damage), have a set of pets out working on another few mobs (also doing damage), use single target holds (ala char) that damage yet another mob or two.. so one controller could possible take out the whole spawn.. albeit slowly..
The tanker can occupy a third of the spawn.. meantime being attacked by that third.. try to aggro more of the spawn by attacking.. and really quickly get in over their head and faceplant.
If you want to take a good look at what tanks should have been .. go play a brute.. not quite a scrapper, but not quite an unkillable force.
I honestly don't think Jack and crew give a damn about tanks anymore..
Why?
Too many things. I'm not even going to start listing them.
But, keep hope dear reader for there are answers..
This setback in the game can be remedied without breaking something else.. but it would require some work, and that's where I'm not optimistic.
I have ideas, but I don't want to bore everyone with those.
The devs aren't stupid, but naivete isn't beyond them, and that at least one of the DEVs has no idea what the players want from their class, but glosses over any suggestions with the thought that folks want to be tankmages.
Surprise, we don't want to be tankmages, we want to have fun. One doesn't necessitate the other.
Don't agree. I think it defines a mentality. You don't have to be "unkillable" to subscribe to this philosophy.
Whether or not a particular build or power set can successfully pull it off (i.e. survive) is a question of design and skill.
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Okay, so I'm not sure what you are saying here. That locking down one/third of the spawn is enough for a Controller, but not enough for a Tanker? If it isn't enough for a tanker, why not?
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I think the problem with it is, that controllers can do more than just lock down 1/3 of the mobs. A *lot* more. I think of my illusion controller friend (I have not ever played a controller past level 10 or so). He got to 50... Illus/Rad. In a typical go at a large spawn:
1. He group invises us (= buffs us)
2. He accel matabolizes us (= buffs us even more)
3. He summons a pet that follows him around.
4. He turns invisible, runs into the middle of the spawn, and flashes them, locking (let's say for argument's sake) 1/3 of them down. His pet(s) that are following him, now go after a few more with an AOE etc.
5. He heals and single-target holds as needed.
Meanwhile, as a tanker, what can I bring to the table?
1. Lock down 1/3 of the mobs and...
....?
Do a little damage? Not enough to be worth even mentioning, really. Beyond that, what do I do.
The problem is the controller can lock down 1/3 of the mobs plus do a bunch more things for the team, including occupying another chunk beyond his 1/3 with pets and single-target lockdowns. All with zero (or near zero) chance of aggroing because he holds (aggro = zero during the hold) or his pet gets the aggro.
Meanwhile, at best I can lock down, and slightly damage, the guys "stuck" to my tanker.
This is why I think tankers are complaning. The only thing they could do was keep things stuck to them, so when keeping things stuck to them becomes hard or less effective, it's a major nerf.
The controller meanwhile, going from full spawn to 1/3 spawn lockdown, still has tons of other stuff he can do.
F
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Yeah, I've been saying this since before ED hit. Now with the I5/ED combo my Earth/Storm 'troller on average can do a much better job of providing for a team than my tanker. 
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Don't agree. I think it defines a mentality. You don't have to be "unkillable" to subscribe to this philosophy.
Whether or not a particular build or power set can successfully pull it off (i.e. survive) is a question of design and skill.
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I agree with you as well. I still maintain that the addition of Armor piercing enhancements made available to players and npcs alike would have allowed resistances and defenses to stay high and would have allowed tanks to feel like tanks wading through hordes of enemies but taking damage as well. Certain identifiable mobs would carry the AP enhancements (APEs?) just like voids, only they might tend to be a bit more common.
The other thing that could be done is to naturally boost their health regen rate but by doing so boost regen scrappers rate by the same amount to maintain their uniqueness.
Shell game: Arc_ID:417344: It can't be good for humanity if the Circle of Thorns, Banished Pantheon and The Vahzilok are making deals.
A Final Solution: Arc_ID:402587: Earth is under stress. Every being she has spawned and some she hasn't want to possess her. Some of her children believe they have a way to put a stop to this and bring a peace.
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I understand the sentiment, but I forsee a likely outcome I am strongly opposed to: that having a healer/buffer requires a counter aggro magnet for that character to survive.
I see nothing about current conditions that warrant even risking that outcome.
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I don't see why it'd be a problem, actually. I meanif tankers are going to need defenders to survive the aggro they draw, why shouldn't defenders need tankers to hold the aggro. If anything, it'll give tankers more reason to hold that aggro.
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I'd rather not see another AT crippled just because we're suffering.
Tanks shouldn't need defenders, making defenders need tanks isn't
going to make anything right in the world, it'll just make another
set of players unhappy. Not what CoH needs atm.
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I love how the idea that having heals and buffs causing aggro somehow translates to "crippling the ATs with buffs and heals." Clearly, all kinds of actions already draw aggro, and I believe buffing and healing draws some as well (but not as much as pure damage).
Also, that whooshing sound was my point going over your head.
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