magicj

It's been settled long ago. Healers won. It's not even close. That's why you have groups like Green Machine and too many all-rad super groups to even count.

Anyone who claims FFers can match what healers do to bring a team to it's highest level of abilities has no clue whatsoever what they're talking about. There is simply no comparison.

It's also why you have never heard of, and never will hear of, an "All-FFer" team tearing through the Statesman TF.

You're doing it wrong. Empaths bring a lot more to a team than heals.

No, you don't stay in PFF. When you'e on the receiving end of a spike of damage, your turtle up quickly, heal your self, and come back out. It's similar to an Ice tanker with Hibernate and it adds a great deal to your survivability in tough situations. There's a video example here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gebY_SwaCWA

It's a generic term commonly used to refer to Empaths, Rads, Kins, Darks, Thermals, etc. I mean no offense by it and if I've offended anyone by using the term, my apologies.

The thing is, the healers can do everything the FFer can do with their shields plus more. It's not at all difficult for a team of healers to have it so the AVs are doing no damage to the team. I've stood in the debuff clouds on a team of healers while the team took out all four AVs at the same time on the STF and took no damage doing it. In addition to that, they debuffed the AVs and buffed the teams damage.

FF just can't match that and doesn't contribute anything the team doesn't already have.

Empaths _are_ +defense buffers. And a lot more.

In fact, if you want to do speed runs on just about anything, it's difficult to beat a team of 8 Empaths.

The rest of your post I'll leave alone because it's nighty night time for me.

Take care.

Yes, but teams already have healers. You're living in a dream world if you think otherwise. And once the healer is there, they don't need the bubbles.

Just as you don't need bubbles to get a MSTF. The spot is better taken by a healer. That doesn't mean a team can't invite you along and get a MSTF anyway despite your sub-par contribution.

Since you seem starved for my attention, I'll throw a bone your way and give you a gratz for leeching off your team to get the MSTF.

Gratz.

Well, no offense, but what did you think I was referring to when I said "healer" if not empaths, rads, kins, darks, etc.? There's no actual class named "Healer" in this game.

That is the reason nearly every team has one or more healers. But once you have healers on your team, you need to look at everything they can do, not just the heals. Their ability to add buffs, debuffs, etc, is directly relevant to whether or not adding an FFers little bubbles adds anything of value to a team. As are their heals.

And perhaps what your saying is relevant to someone wanting to do that. Or perhaps the need could be better served by something like Empathy. (I would put my money, and my search criteria, on Empathy). But it's certainly not typical gameplay by any means.

And I'll tell you _again_ this is not about heals. Healers do much much more than heal.

Yes they can. How many teams need to be immune to damage, AV or otherwise. None.

What they need to do is kill the AV. FF's little bubbles aren't going to help in that area. That's why teams don't look for FFer's to kill AVs.

Well, the name calling the name calling didn't work, the facts didn't support your case, 99.99% of teams playing the game don't follow what you're saying, so lets try loyalty tests.

Lord knows you couldn't just admit you're wrong and move on. After all, two years later you're still going on about the Earth troller thing.

Again, the issue isn't "heals vs. bubbles". It's what, if anything, do little bubbles add to a team.

And what's going to happen in actual gameplay is those teams are going to get healers to handle the problem, not FFers.

Healers are Rads and Kins and Empaths and Darks. All of them bring debuffing or shields in addition to the heals.

This is what teams do. At every skill level of play, every level of difficulty, and every experience level. No one brings in FFers to beat AVs. Just the opposite is true. FFers are known to be a poor choice against AVs. Probably the worst choice in the game.

Here, like in most cases, being at the defense cap is irrelevant. It's not what teams need.

It's not just me. A few others tried and they failed.

There's no need to debate this. Just do it. Show me a video of an Earth troller completing the challenge. I'd be more than happy to add them to the list of trollers that can run it.

Then we agree. Getting your pets healed and buffed for free is a good thing and yet another example of why teams look for healers, not bubblers.

P.S. there's no reason to feel bad just because you couldn't complete the challenge. No Earth troller has to date. Mind, Plant, Fire, and Illusion, yes. But no Earth troller yet.

So now you think getting your pets healed and buffed for free is a bad idea? Why?

P.S. Still looking forward to seeing an Earth troller complete my Infernal Challenge. Give it a try. The links in my sig. You could be the very first.

Yes, but this isn't a "heals vs bubbles" debate. It's a discussion about the pros and cons of the little bubbles. Healers enter the discussion only because most teams have a healer of some sort.

Given that most teams have a healer, what do the little bubbles bring that a team needs? You can't separate the "other buffs" from the heals. The healer has both. That's why teams get healers.

The team already had a healer and the healer needs to heal anyway, if for no other reason than to heal pets. You're not going to spend time bubbling a bunch of mastermind pets. But healers keep them going (and buffed as well) for free.

As I mentioned earlier, you don't turn PFF and leave it on. You use it for survivability with Aid Self, then come back out of it.

A fair argument. But is one AV in one mission a strong enough reason to take the little bubbles? I would have to say no because the vast majority of the time LR gets beat with no bubbler on the team. Like with Malta, bubbles just aren't the preferred way to fight end drain, even though they do help in that area.

Just going to give a real quick answer to this because I need to take a break or a bit.

● Lord Recluse - I'm not sure what that tanker could been doing to get killed. I've seen a Granite Tanker tank him with the aid of a healer for over half an hour (yes, I've been on some less than perfect PuGs )
● Hamidon - Hami damage bypasses bubbles. This tanker forgot to pop an EoE.
● Lusca - Very hard to believe. I can tank Lusca indefinitely solo with an FFer using only Dispersion Bubble from force fields. I even have video of that here at the 1:03 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUBYFlcNs3A
● Malta - I assume we're talking about sappers here. Granted the little bubbles will offer defense and energy drain resistance. But that's hardly the preferred way to deal with sappers. Killing them or putting them in a hold is what teams will usually do.
Babbage
● Babbage - Like Lusca, this is hard for me to believe. I can tank him with an FFer using only Dispersion Bubble.
● Rularuu, Psionic CW King - These I will agree with.
● Ghost Widow - Like malta, what you're saying is true, but it's generally not what teams look for to handle the problem. What they look for, as far as I've seen, is Emps and Kins to stack CM and ID on them.

So, of this list we have CW King and Rularuu where I can honestly agree might cause a tanker to consider an FFer. In the case of CW King, an FFer with no little bubbles can raise PFF and take the alpha rather than having the tank do it. It's much safer than using little bubbles.

So that leaves us with "misc" groups like Rularuu. We can talk about whether or not its worth taking the two little bubbles for groups like that later. Unfortunately, I really have to head out now.

We all make mistakes, Nalrok. It's not a big deal. Just try to cut back on the insults a bit please and stick to the discussion. It's about the pros and cons of FF's little bubbles.

Well, to be picky, I didn't exactly say they were irrelevant, I asked about their relevance. I've never seen a Granite tanker who was getting decent healing die, regardless of whether or not math says it could happen in theory.

Also, my note about the Granite tanker getting once shotted by Psi while fully bubbled with power boosted bubbles wasn't really an argument, just an observation I added parenthetically.

You most certainly can.

Contoller's Power Boost: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +122.925% for 15s
Defender's Power Build Up: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +98.34% for 12.5s
MM's Power Boost: DEF(All Types, Defense, Melee, Ranged, AOE) +65.56% for 15s

I'd advice it too. You're not going to win this debate because you're wrong. Every single in-game example presented has supported my view, including those presented by folks who believe FFers should take the little bubbles.

So, again I ask for the relevance of the math. By this I mean there is no question that you can run math and show incoming damage > healing, but how often does this actually happen to Granite tankers in game?

Have you ever seen a Granite tanker that's getting healing die? It's an extremely rare event.

(But it just so happens I did see a Granite tanker die on the first LGTF of the two I ran the other night to test the effects of bubbles. He was bubbled with power boosted bubbles raising him almost to the defense cap all by themselves. He got one-shotted by the Clockwork AV in the first mission.)

I'll try to be as clear as I can.

Teams look for healers, not bubblers. Once you have a healer healing the damage, you don't need bubbles. The reverse isn't true.

Well, let's take a look at the original example given in the first post to this thread. The toon had all the personal MM attacks and all the FF powers except little bubbles. So what can that toon do?

● First of all, because they're not spending time giving out bubbles no one needs, they can spend they're time watching the fight and directing their attacks where they're most needed. For example, If a healer sudden gets some dangerous aggro, the MM can direct the bots at it or use Provoke to grab the aggro. That'll do a lot more to save the healer than the little bubbles will do.

● Secondly, the MM can use their personal MM attacks and vet attacks to contribute to team damage. I'll grant you this damage isn't vast, but it's better than passing out bubbles that no one needs. And the OP stated clearly the team did great with no bubbles.

● Third, the MM can use Repair and Aid Other to keep his bots operating a full force. This will again provide extra damage which is better than useless bubbles no one on the team needs.

● Fourth, by skipping the little bubbles the MM frees up two slots to take other types of support powers that may actually be useful. An example of that could be taking Recall Friend and Resurrect.

And no, body guard mode is not better than PFF. But the two compliment each other nicely. It's a relationship somewhat like an Ice Tanker with Hibernate.

What you're getting when you invite an FFer to a team is a toon that doesn't die, even in tough situations. They can go on supporting the team, mitigating damage, and providing damage for a very long time.

I'll grant you that many FFers don't know this. They skip PFF on their masterminds, grumble about knockback, etc, and pass out bubbles no one needs.

But a well built, well played FFer should be up with the scrappers, brutes, and tankers in terms of survivability, all while helping the squishier toons to survive as well.