gWrath

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The question is, do the players need to redefine their perception of what a Tanker can now do and let go of the past?

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Perhaps, but when I responded, I responded as a new tanker of 4 months. Chatman's description is what I had expected and have done. But I've found that my ability to do this post I5/I6 depends on the dmg type of the foe, diff lvl, team size and the presence of other ATs (e.g. def/trollers).

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Or, is it that other ATs (at a similar level to given established Tank) can take on the same number of villians **with the same style of tactics** and out tank a Tanker? - This has yet to be proven true. Plenty of opinion and speculation, but no proof.

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True, and I hope the testing that is being done and other efforts like Tiffany's AV Project will give shed some better light on this rather than relie on anecdotes and opinions.

However, I believe that a tanker should play differently than a Scrapper or Blaster. So the tactics should be different. I don't think anyone would argue that an unbuffed Blaster can jump into a middle of a spawn and start tanking. But can a Blaster handle the same spawn by blowing them away and using the environment/space to mitigate dmg? yup.

But I do understand the argument, posed by some, that a "neener neener" tank (one that taunts/gains aggro but runs like a chicken using SPACE as a dmg mitigator vs their own defenses) is not what tanking experience should be. If I wanted to do that, I would play a blaster or defender or scrapper.

I would agree that tankers, as a community, still has not narrowed its issues and priorities. There are multiple positions based on different concerns. Maybe that's why the devs has not really reponded in depth to tanker concerns bc we're still working out our issues.

But what we're doing now - the tests, the discussion, the threads for action - is heading in the right direction.

Can't say any more than what you've said. "Self Sufficient Hero" not uber gods. That's what I signed up for.

I'm trying to explore the nebulous areas of coolness, fun and game play. It's a question that has been avoided on these forums (for good reasons sure). But even tho there is no right or wrong answer, i think it still is a good question to ask and discuss. I would think Cryptic would want to know why people gravitate toward and like playing a particular AT.

Why play a tanker? What is fun about playing a tanker? Why do ppl play tankers until lvl 50? Or has I5/I6 ensured the death of a tanker legacy? If so, how? Bc we're less tough?

To me, tankers should play differently than scrappers. In practice, they do but bc of my role. As tanker, I look out for the team first, looking to grab aggro and looking at teammates health bars. As scrapper, I look for quick arrests. Both offer different game play experiences, and I look to one or the other depending on my mood.

I'm not sure if I have a point here. I'm trying to get at the "psychology of a tanker".

Ok, if its active vs passive, is not our secondary the active side? Like Mr Yukon pointed out in his thread, our secondaries provide additional dmg mitigation like status effects (save */fire).

If defense should be our active half (which makes sense to me given its our primary), what would you suggest to make it active?

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In other words, she has options. The tanker really doesn't.

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Shouldn't scrappers have the same problem as tankers i.e. they hit stuff and get hit? Tho, they don't seem that they do. Is their "coolness" factor merely a function of their higher dmg? Which may be GP's point... that tankers just don't arrest anything, they merely distract.

Don't agree. I think it defines a mentality. You don't have to be "unkillable" to subscribe to this philosophy.

Whether or not a particular build or power set can successfully pull it off (i.e. survive) is a question of design and skill.

Really? I never noticed something like this even tho I duo with a D3 most of the time (prob since I'm always the first in). His debuffs generate aggro of course. But we'll have to try walking toward a spawn side by side and see who they'll attack first (without performing an aggro generating activity). Interesting...

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As to mission design in your scenario I don't know why it didn't behave like the Terra Volta Trial where they will sometimes spill out of two doors at once. Perhaps it had something to do with the difficulty slider? I don't know, just guessing.

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The diff was Unyielding. And the con lvl was not that important to me, it was the number of mobs and where they were coming from. I haven't done the TV respec so I look forward to tackling that one.

Good ideas in your post BTW. Increasing mob AI is something I support, tho I've been told and have read that dev's don't see this as a high priority atm.

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In other words attack the squishies and leave the naugahide for last. Have the bad guys employ true "fight to win" strategies.

[/ QUOTE ] To clarify my thoughts, I wasn't suggesting that mobs ignore everyone else (like the Scrapper who's hitting them, the Blaster who's shooting them or the Tanker who just taunted them). That doesn't seem right either. But should buffs cause aggro? Makes sense to me. Again, the devil is in the details (what causes aggro, how much aggro).

As an unintended side effect, I also see that this could have an effect on buffing defenders who solo, since they may be subject to more heat than usual. OTOH, debuffing defenders have already lived with this.

My view is that this is a dramatic change and should be thought out before implementing. But the question arose out of the concern of "when is aggro management needed?" This suggestion was designed to increase the situations where aggro management is needed. But I think its a good question that should be answered.

Another possible answer: better mish design. For example, I was running in a pentad vs BP. The objective was to protect a tome. It was in the middle of this vast room populated with rows of columns. We took out the spawns on the fringes. We locked and loaded and assaulted the middle spawn whom we quickly defeated. Then we waited for the waves of BP to descend upon us...

This had the makings of an epic battle. We had only two melee fighters, a tanker (myself) and a scrapper. One defender. Two blasters. So we stood our ground to protect the tome. Scrapper on the north side. Tanker on the south. Squishes between us. I went into "full tanker mode", expecting that I would need to focus exclusively on getting baddies off the blasters so they could work their mojo. We expected we all would be fighting for our lives amidst a horde of enemies coming from all sides...

They didn't. They came through one door. And the waves weren't that big. So I stood by the door, held aggro, while the D3 debuffed em (and tar pitted the door), Scrapper sliced em and the Blasters AoE'd em into oblivion. What a let down.

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While I use the same approach to those spawns if the Devs decided to make things happen that way for the AI it wouldn't sit well with the Defender/Controller group. Not at all. Although it would be interesting to see ( in a limited testing phase) to see their actual reaction. I don't think they'd do it though.

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Yea, the def/troller group should certainly talk about this if this would even be considered. It seems like a dramatic change that should be thought out and tested.

I do think it makes sense. Also, I wouldn't see this requiring tankers in particular since buffers would only need protection. Tankers might make a great choice (since that's their role) but Scrappers and Blasters could switch targets.

But the devil is in the details (i.e. what generates aggro, how much aggro etc.). For example, what if buffs only produce aggro in nearby bosses and lts since they are the "smart" mobs? They're the ones that figure out "hey, that Scrapper is still standing bc of the funny looking guy glowing green!" The minions act the same ol' stupid way, to avoid def/trollers being mobbed by everyone.

From a priority standpoint, I'd go with a less dramatic change like increasing non-S/L RES.

Hmm...when trying to define the role of the tanker, should we look to trying to EXPAND that role or make our current role (meatshield) better?

I've never played EQ but I get the argument for NOT having the triad. I have no problem that any AT can solo/team at heroic, and that any AT can be substituted (to be successful not necessarily from a min/max perspective). I originally thought that invincibility diff should be the level where our AT's strengths and weaknesses shine, to encourage teaming, but now I'm not so sure.

But in practice, it would be suicide for my tanker to tank for an 8 man invinc mish composed only of dmg dealers and no troller/def if there are non-S/L dmging foes.

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The only problem is that there is no way in hell that Defenders can survive that aggro. If we're talking Taunt level aggro here, no way.
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There's a fine line between being useful and being required. Frankly, I don't want to see anyone be required.

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Agree with not requiring any AT. Agree that it shouldn't be a heal = taunt.
But I take my cue from PvP. If some mobs are pounding on a Scrapper, who just does doesn't seem to get hurt or keeps healing, they should realize that the lynchpin is the defender healing/buffing the Scrapper. That seems fair to me, maybe not right away, but in time.

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Heals generating aggro.
Is that crazy?

[/ QUOTE ] LOL. This is exactly what I was going to say! I've read that other MMORPG have this aggro system, so maybe its doable for CoH.

I would add "buffs" in general. Debuffs already induce aggro, so I think it's fine there.

My other suggestion would be better mission design. I remember one mish where my D3 and Blaster teammates and I had a spawn nice and packed around me when lo and behold some baddies showed up behind the D3. Could have been wandering monsters and such but it was challenging to protect the squishies. The D3 had to heal the blaster who was drawing aggro PLUS being out flanked. I came in, took control of the aggro, and everything settled down.

Well, thank you for taking the time to post (no sarcasm intended). I was hoping a dev would throw his 2 infl in.

Having read the arguments (and there are a TON of posts), there is a wide spectrum of positions, from the mechanical ("increase non-S/L resists to 15 or 20%") to the existential ("do tankers have a role?" "do other AT bring more to the table?").

I say this bc your post is a simple response to a VERY multi-faceted concern (of which admittedly not all tankers agree). Would it be helpful if a summary is provided?

Let me just say, as a new tanker (of 4 months), your "Strongmen" post was disheartening bc that is not the way I tank. I do not choose targets based on dmg type. I choose them based on level of lethality to the team. While I don't have to hold all the aggro, I should hold aggro of the strongest mobs bc I am (should be) the toughest AT and should be able to take the punishment until my team defeats em.

I'm not saying tankers should be impossible to defeat. I am saying that, when facing non-S/L foes, I shouldn't be a squishy (baring psi of course).

(oh, and my experience is with and my comments targeted toward invul).

Great post. Gives me a baseline of performance. Wish more threads would focus on this.... how do tankers actually tank?

I replied to States abt looking into those powers like Tanker passives that only use one type of enh. The purpose of ED would not have applied to those powers, unless the intent was "tough luck".

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1) The imbalance between damage types. I don't mind having negative protection from Psi but as to the rest I believe that at 40+ all tankers should have approximately balanced defenses. My defenders might have similar holes against Psi but they do not suffer the same imbalance, why should my tank?

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/Agree. I'm lvl 28 now and am beginning to experience how mobs are getting more nasty toward invul tankers (non-S/L dmg). A sobering experience.

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2) My defenses should be better on their own than that given me by a defender.

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There should be some room in our defenses to welcome buffs. But I duo with a D3 and there is a noticeable difference when Darkest Night (an acc debuff) is on or off. "Noticeable difference" means life or death in many cases when running Unyielding mish.

I like what they're going to do with Dull Pain. I could live with the fix to Invincibility since that was a bug anyway. I wish they would increase non-S/L RES to 50 - 60%.

Not sure how it will play out in the long run but I disagree with the fact that that Brutes can reach the 90% RES cap. The 90% cap should belong to Tankers only. That provides an incentive for tankers to team so they can reach the cap and other AT's to team with tanks so they can help him reach the cap. 82% sounds fair.

Wow. This is a COMPREHENSIVE overview of all the AT's in CoH and CoV. Your effort must have been substantial. This is great for me since I'm looking to get CoV. Five well-deserved stars.

Well, I'm 35 living in the Chicago area with my wife and kids. I'm a lawyer - my play time comes from less sleep and skipping workouts at the gym. Damn this game! ((snooze))

My main toon is g0dWrath, a 26 inv/fire tanker. Also play a bevy of alts.

Yea, my SO wont go near a computer game much less a MMORPG. You folks are lucky.

And...what, Lady_Athyna has a husband? THAT changes the way I read her posts

Thanks. I've decided to take both Boxing and Air Superiority, as flight is my travel power (giving up good 'ol Super Leap tho ) I use Boxing instead of Brawl but I dont think I'll slot Boxing. I've three slotted AS so far.

Two more questions, if interested:
1) Epic Pools: I understand it's subject to personal preference, but what do you think of the Pyre Mastery pool vs Energy Mastery (or the one with Conserve Energy)?

Char interests me bc its a hold (status effect). Not keen on Fire Blast, but its necessary I think to get Fire Ball, a nice ranged AoE. Of course, Pyre Mastery fits into my toon concept as well.

Also, do you think getting all three powers are worth it? I'm salivating over an AoE, but it'll cost me two other powers to get it.

Conserve Energy I've read does some amazing things (tho now not perma), and since I'm going with Unstoppable when I reach lvl 32, I've read they work well together to get me back into the game. I've read that Laser Beam Eyes is a nice ranged attack, something I would think is equivalent to Fire Blast.

Any advice would be welcome.

2) Taunt: I use Taunt a lot, at least once every battle, bc it is the only ranged "attack" I have. With Invinc, punch-voke and Combustion, I dont have much of a problem in gaining aggro in melee. I usually have a nice cluster around me when spillage may occur when one or two mobs run over to a teammate. I could jump over there and tag em, but I prefer using Taunt. In some cases, I am situated in an ideal location (i.e. door way, chokepoint, etc.), where I would NOT want to move for fear of compromising our position.

My question to you is your take on Taunt (yes, I realize the topic is controversial). I am beginning to think that Taunt may be useful to me during most of my career, but once I am able to get a ranged attack like fire blast or LBE, I could substitute it. I also see Fire Ball as potentially acting as an AoE Taunt which can affect more mobs (15 I think is the limit) and with damage to boot!

In its place (when I respec it out), I would get either Build Up, Resist Elements, Tough Hide or even Resist Physical Defense (I'm going with the TI/UY/Tough combo). I have already built "Resist Energies" in my build.

I'm seeing that my Tanker's build is very tight (esp when adding two Fighting powers to keep S/L RES at a decent lvl) so I'd like to excise anything superfluous.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Thanks for the excellent guide from a newbie tank. Five stars!

Question: Should a /fire tanker get an attack with status effect? I'm thinking of Air Superiority. I have AS now but am thinking of dropping it as I'm going the Boxing/Tough route. AS works well with my other attacks that do only DoT. With lowered defenses, I've found AS helping in keeping at least one mob on the floor.

I appreciate you asking the question, Tom, bc as a new tanker, I would like a different perspective than "roll another AT". Sorry for the long post but I've been thinking about this since I5.

By way of background, my main is a lvl 24 invul/fire on Champion. I mainly duo with a D3 (70%) but also join small 3-5 teams (around 20%), 6+ large teams (5%) or solo (5%). I run my mishs on Rugged. I'm new to MMORPG (coh being my first), new to coh (just started Aug '05) and tanking.

I'll describe how I play my main (g0dWrath). I'm usually the first one to jump into a spawn, hoping that Invincibility will do its job and my RES and hp hold up. D3's have a decent heal (Twilight Grasp) and an awesome debuff (Darkest Night) so I do take that into account, although I don't find myself needing heals that often.

I do appreciate the buffs given by defenders, and the controls provided by trollers and thank them for it.

I take the alpha. In some cases, if I don't think I can handle the alpha by jumping into the spawn, I either taunt pull or have someone else pull (like the D3) and I block and tackle.

I'm working on the skill to "set up" a pull (the role which BlackSly calls "the Anvil" - excellent guide BTW) so that AoE and damage dealing can be best applied.

My tanker does contribute to damage dealing through Scorch, Fire Sword (six slotted) and Air Superiority. I use Combustion (an AoE) for damage and holding aggro. Since I regularly team with a defender, we BOTH have to contribute to damage or else the mish goes very slow. A blaster or scrapper is always a welcome addition to our team!

I expect that my teammates know how to manage aggro. They should know how their actions can gain aggro and what they plan on doing with it. The Tanker cannot be expected to control ALL aggro. It is obvious that the game is being changed to ensure this.

However, I see it as my job to "manage" slippage (i.e. aggro that has turned its attention away from me to a squishie or when we accidently trip a spawn: does the mob do a lot of dmg? how many mobs are heading toward my teammate? can my teammate handle it?

If so, I keep attacking and doing whatever I'm doing. I've asked teammates afterward if alittle slippage is ok, and most agreed that it is, since one - maybe two - mobs (depending on con) is usually not a problem.

If not, I use taunt or jump over there and hit the mob, trying to draw its aggro.

I keep an eye on the team window and check to see if anyone's health is yellow or worse or falling rapidly. If so, I either taunt their target or just run over there.

I see no problem with another AT (Scrappers usually) wanting to keep/draw aggro - "tanking" perhaps. I have also felt more comfortable in the few 8 man teams I've been in to have another tanker (or at least a Scrapper) to share aggro.

When there are blasters on my team, I tend to focus more on managing aggro (through taunts, auras, switching targets to spread the aggro) than damage dealing, as they are aggro magnets.

Scrappers are different - I usually focus on dmg dealing unless someone needs help. Plus, the Scrappers I've played with WANT to be the first one in battle (i.e. take the alpha) though we both tend to run in at the same time.

It is usually during the first minute or so of a fight (depending on the size of the spawn of course) that I know what strategy I should take (i.e. focus on keeping aggro, keep dishing out the pain, retreat, etc.).

Of course, the above is what I TRY to do. I've faceplanted, failed to transfer aggro before my teammate fell, etc. But not at a frequency that I would consider switching AT's.

I subscribe to the old school thinking of what "Tanking" should be about:
- first one in
- last one out
- face-to-face contact with the enemy

That's heroism to me (in an online game context). That's why I like the Tank AT. I hope that I5/ED and beyond doesn't change that TOO much.