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Originally Posted by Umbral

At level 50, Blaster Inferno does 304.98 damage base (62.56 smash, 125.12 fire, 50% chance for 93.84 fire, 75% chance for 93.84 fire). Shield Charge doesn't even compare with its 200.2 base damage. Keep in mind that, when you're looking at the power itself, you shouldn't be factoring in contributions from things like AAO. When analyzing the set as a whole, it's useful, but when comparing powers 1-to-1, it's not really appropriate.



LR and Shield Charge do the exact same amount of damage. The difference between the two that makes Shield Charge better is that Shield Charge applies all of the damage to the entire area whereas Lightning Rod applies the damage in concentric circles, with only a small area around the point of origin actually experience the full damage. Honestly, I point this out as all the more reason why Shield Charge is too strong: when a defense powerset has a better attack than a primary, you know something is wrong.



I'm curious how you're getting 300-350% base damage with Shield Charge. Slotting would cover 95%. Saturated AAO will give you another 81.25%. Toss in BU as well for another 100% +dam, and you're still going to be short about 25% +dam to even achieve the lowest damage you're listing (which I guess could be covered with +dam set bonuses). Keep in mind, of course, that the disparity you're mentioning between Melt Armor up and down is also too large because Melt Armor only provides 9.75% -res, so you'd see roughly 660 damage.



Which is exactly why it's called a "mini-nuke" and not a "nuke". RoA and Full Auto aren't generally referred to as nukes because they're crashless and up a lot more.

Originally Posted by Siolfir

The following are some details about Shield Charge for Scrappers, and are among the reasons that I assumed that the version of Lightning Rod that was created for Scrappers should've been ported over to everyone while leaving the Brute/original version of Shield Charge on the ATs that get it.

• Shield Charge does more damage than Lightning Rod, solely due to AoE radius.
• Shield Charge is a tier 8 in a defense powerset, Lightning Rod is a tier 9 in an offense powerset.
• The Scrapper version of Lightning Rod does roughly as much base damage to the whole AoE as the Brute version of Shield Charge.
• Scrapper Shield Charge does less damage than a Blaster nuke.
• Base damage for the typical Corruptor nuke is 125.13, 75% chance of 62.56, 50% chance of extra 62.56. This makes the average damage 203.33 for nukes such as Blackstar, Atomic Blast, Dreadful Wail, or Nova. This is compared to the 200.2 for Shield Charge.
• Shield Charge has no crash, an endurance cost of 13.52, can be done at a 60' range, and has a base recharge 1/4 of that of the nukes.

Now, given that what I expected to happen didn't (ie, the devs didn't leave Shield Charge alone when I commented on how much crap it was that Scrappers and Tankers got a buffed LR when Stalkers didn't - instead the buffed the Stalker version and then Shield Charge), I'm assuming that means that the devs feel that Shield Charge, as it stands now for Scrappers, is "balanced". Which means that it shouldn't be nerfed, but instead that every power dealing comparable damage at higher cost and/or risk is too weak.


So, to keep up with this form of "balance":

• Have Lightning Rod deal its full damage to the entire AoE. There is no logical reason why a shield strapped to someone's arm can hit everything in a 20' AoE but a huge blast of lighting from the sky can't.
• Remove the crash from each and every "nuke" power, and cut their recharge in half. This would still be twice that of Shield Charge, and they'd still cost more endurance and most would require being in the middle of the spawn.
• Boost Corruptor damage modifier to 0.90 ranged and Defender damage modifier to 0.75 ranged. This means that a Defender using a secondary powerset will do as much damage as a Scrapper using a secondary powerset, and Corruptors will do slightly more - after all, they're using a primary powerset, so they're primarily damage dealers as well, right?

*gets off soapbox*

Originally Posted by Silas

Inferno and SC both one-shotting +0s doesn't mean they're "as strong".

It's like a Maserati and an F1 car racing a beat-up old pickup truck. Both the Maserati and the F1 will reach the finish line before the pickup, but they're certainly not as fast as one another.

The fact of the matter is, when compared both in a vacuum and in the context of their respective sets, Inferno does significantly more damage than Shield Charge.

People say it because the numbers back it up.

Originally Posted by UberGuy

I just got a new character to 50 last night. It's a Regen Scrapper with 20-22% defense to all 3 positions and 50% global recharge. I have 650M inf, and 900 merits. (I had more merits but spent a bunch on low-level globals.) My build is shy one set of Hecatombs, one set of Obliterations, and one set of Blessing of the Zephyr to be "done", and I expect to have all of those by this coming weekend. (For those keeping track, that'll be 23-25% def to all and 60% recharge.)

I didn't farm. I didn't marketeer. All of my contact bars except a couple in Galaxy City, Striga and Croatoa are all full. Other than running the Task Force Commander TFs and a few ITF or Lady Grey TFs, I soloed the whole way.

This is the 2nd character I've played up to 50 since XP smoothing, and the 1st since the I16 difficulty changes. I'm amazed how easy it is to level solo now. I went from 40-44 before I'd finsihed the arcs from two contacts, playing at +2/x2/yes/no.

So I think it isn't hard to get to 50 without PLing, and I think it isn't hard to make money and thus think it isn't hard to get lots of IOs. Do I think it is easy? Let's say I don't think it's automatic. Maybe, just maybe, you're radically less patient than I am. But I think my experience again suggests that there's just a wee bit of hyperbole in these claims one has to farm their eyes out or rake their fellow players over some sort of virtual market coals to get a tricked out build.

Yes, it absolutely means there shouldn't be pieces for them on the market. Do you understand that people playing the game is how those pieces get there to begin with? People like you are a big part why there are no low-level goods for sale. You want to race to 50 and consume the things others have produced, and you wonder why people are paying 500M inf for one purple. You and all your buds who race to 50 are inflating the number of people with 50s competing for those items. If you're PLing in the AE you're making it even worse, because you aren't producing any purples while you're in there.

Purples are only slottable by level 50s. That tells me that they are intended to be a carrot you chase mostly once you are already 50. If everyone tries to get the carrot before they get to the end of the stick, we run out of carrots real fast, and that means the price of carrots gets really high.

Originally Posted by Talen_Lee

You call the people who disagree with you immoral, liars, and children. You are simply unable to recognise the distinction between your behaviour and the behaviour of those around you; if you do it, it's good and right and with pure intent, and if someone else does it, it's bad. The amount of respect with which we treat you is directly proportionate to the amount of respect you deserve.

Thus, we regard you as a cleverly painted chicken, left in the town square on a podium.

Originally Posted by Gearford

comparing a toggle to a full string of defiance, or even aim/BU is simply illogical.

Originally Posted by Werner

It is? Granted, I do NOT talk to a lot of people in game. But the few people I've hung out with have been rather opposed to buying gold from gold farmers, both because it's cheating, and because it's the cause of all the spam. I've never heard anyone even hint that "if you want to win, you buy inf." If it's really widespread, that's a serious problem.


Wait, so the problem ISN'T all the people you say are out there buying huge gobs of influence, which lets them get the top end loot right now by paying more than current market equilibrium? Mind you, I doubt there are all these hordes of people buying influence, but I have no evidence either way, and if there ARE, I'd say they ARE they problem.

But then, maybe it's just a difference in who we blame. I don't blame the gold farmers. They're just satisfying a demand. I'm cool with that. It's the people on the demand side that I blame. And I'm sorry, but I'm not accepting "I'm just keeping up with the Joneses" as an excuse. You buy from gold farmers, you ARE the Joneses. You ARE the problem.

Still, does this really happen that often? I suppose the gold farmers have to be making their money from someone. But still. It just seems so foreign to me. Maybe it shouldn't. I don't know. It just seems like another variation of buying a level 50 character. Why would you pay someone actual money to play the game for you? I've never really gotten it. And I'm kinda drifting off subject, I suppose.

Originally Posted by Hyperstrike

Originally Posted by Another_Fan

At this point you have destroyed the legitimacy of your argument and are just hating out of envy.

Originally Posted by Umbral

At level 50, Blaster Inferno does 304.98 damage base (62.56 smash, 125.12 fire, 50% chance for 93.84 fire, 75% chance for 93.84 fire). Shield Charge doesn't even compare with its 200.2 base damage. Keep in mind that, when you're looking at the power itself, you shouldn't be factoring in contributions from things like AAO. When analyzing the set as a whole, it's useful, but when comparing powers 1-to-1, it's not really appropriate.



LR and Shield Charge do the exact same amount of damage. The difference between the two that makes Shield Charge better is that Shield Charge applies all of the damage to the entire area whereas Lightning Rod applies the damage in concentric circles, with only a small area around the point of origin actually experience the full damage. Honestly, I point this out as all the more reason why Shield Charge is too strong: when a defense powerset has a better attack than a primary, you know something is wrong.



I'm curious how you're getting 300-350% base damage with Shield Charge. Slotting would cover 95%. Saturated AAO will give you another 81.25%. Toss in BU as well for another 100% +dam, and you're still going to be short about 25% +dam to even achieve the lowest damage you're listing (which I guess could be covered with +dam set bonuses). Keep in mind, of course, that the disparity you're mentioning between Melt Armor up and down is also too large because Melt Armor only provides 9.75% -res, so you'd see roughly 660 damage.



Which is exactly why it's called a "mini-nuke" and not a "nuke". RoA and Full Auto aren't generally referred to as nukes because they're crashless and up a lot more.

Originally Posted by Lohenien

Real life character and how someone behaves in a semi anonymous setting online are pretty far from the same thing.

Even given that fact, RL people gobble up things in short supply and sell it to the highest bidder. Look at oil companies, they do it. Even RL there are rich, obnoxious, ****** bags that will corner the market on a highly desired item.

The difference is here in game, anyone can be rich and obnoxious. Therefor yes, because there is limited supply, someone WILL manipulate.

But the thing is, that is only possible due to low supply. I can prove it to you - Numina's Convalescence uniques at level 30 are in lower supply than level 50s. Which one costs 200 million and which one costs 60 ? The higher cost one is the lower supplied one, clearly. The demand for the IO at the lower level is also higher, so people are willing to bid more to get it which allows manipulators to capitalize on the lower supply.

Originally Posted by Umbral

Comparing Shield Charge to the weakest of the "true nukes" (i.e. not crashless), Thunderous Blast, Shield Charge for a Scrapper deals 200.2 smashing damage over a 20' radius spread while Thunderous Blast deals 265.88 energy and smashing damage (62.56 smashing, 125.12 energy, 75% chance for 62.56, 50% chance for 62.56) over a 25' radius. The true nukes are still a good deal stronger, but SC is pretty up there. It's, honestly, more appropriate to compare it to a blaster mini-nuke (i.e. crashless), like Rain of Arrows, that deals 225.21 lethal damage over a 25' radius area. The comparison still prefers the Blaster nuke, but, considering that Shield Charge is in a Scrapper defensive set, it should probably be a bit more preferential towards the Blaster nukes.

Originally Posted by Lohenien

Great - now you just need to realize that 95% of the people that use the market and these forums are flippers / crafters and not the manipulators.

Your assertion that there are large amounts of manipulators is the whole thing that you have wrong and the major reason everyone here is jumping on you.

As I outlined in my 5000th post, manipulators cannot control prices on IOs that have enough supply. You your self pointed out that somethings don't sell often and there for you could go in and list it at higher amounts and it will probably sell.You identified the problem but pointed in the wrong direction.

The problem is actually supply, not manipulators, as you claim. If supply where higher, the manipulators would not be able to manipulate.

The fact of the matter is, somethings are so rare that they will be manipulated and there is nothing that will fix that that will not also break everything else.