dugfromthearth

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team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.

What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).

That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.

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Yes, they should. In fact, adding diminishing returns to buffs and debuffs of all sorts would allow us to alter many, many problematic powers. In all likelyhood, though, it will not happen. The change would simply be too fundmental and require a great deal of work on our part.

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Lord help us, they'd do it if they could!

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Sure! Then Weave could give 15% Defense, and Combat Jumping could give 25% Defense (or whatever) and combined, they'd give 30% instead of 40%. When the local FF Defender buffed the character, instead of the normal 25% for the FF, it'd be 5% for 35% defense.*

Basically, additional buffs would always be helpful, but the base level abilities could be made better and more useful across the board.

* Disclaimer: All numbers used illustratively and do not indicate any relation to what said values or formulae would actually be if we were ever to implement a system such as this, which I doubt.

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I assume the way to do this would be to make the factors serial instead of parallel.

As in Tanker Resist X reduces damage taken by 50%. Defender buff Y reduces damage by 50%. Instead of adding to reduce damage by 100%, the tanker resist would reduced damage by 50% and then the defender buff would reduce the remaining damage by 50%.

I can understand for tech reasons it may never be implemented. But ED and the tanker nerf gave me hope that the devs are still willing to make massive changes to make the game better. I do hope the devs continue to see the game as having a long future so they keep trying to make it "perfect" rather than just trying to patch it along to keep it running while it gradually dies off. CoH is too good to just decide that it is too late to fix substantial issues.

But I quibble. A dev agrees with me. I can die content.

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The problem I have is that if your are going to say stacked buffs/debuffs are overpowered, you need to look at teams stacking damage auras. Just as powerful and melt invincible missions just as easy.

Cheers!

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You need to work on your math Hobo. Additive damage auras are nowhere near competitive with force multiplying buffs/debuffs.



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Have you ever stacked 4 or more Spines/DA's? Much safer and just as fast as any all defender team I have ever been apart of.

Cheers!

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Then I guess the point would be that the multiplicative damage of the buff/debuff team is well over the top if a stacked additive team is so deadly eh? The truth of the matter is that few enough challenges in this game are really challenging to a competent team.

I will certainly admit that buff/debuff teams do have some time penalty is setting up debuffs and buffs.

Though I rather expect that if you took an extreme case, say a giant monster and used a buff/debuff team compared to your spines/dark team, the scrappers would be shamed.

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Or you could do it solo with an overpowered temp pet that takes all of 10 minutes to get.

I don't think a GM could over come the damage with it's regen. 4 staked Quills, Death Shroud, Spine Burst, Throw Spines is an insane amount of AOE damage.

If we get our Spine, /DA project off the ground we will have to give it a go. So far the teams we have run with 3 or more Spine/DA's are really silly. Everything is disoriented, slowed, and falling in heaps.

Cheers!

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The aoe attacks were modified to have a hard cap on the number of mobs affected. I personally prefer diminishing returns as being more elegant, but it seems the devs decided a hard cap was best.

But the basic issue is the same - characters should work well solo against 3 mobs as well as in a team of 4 vs 12 mobs or a team of 8 vs 24 mobs. All powers do not have to work equally well in all cases. But it is bad for a character to have their power level increase to be 8x as powerful by virtue of being in a team of 8 instead of solo.

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Bull crap it isn't the reason for this thread. You pretty much had it pointed out that people have finally realized the usefulness of buffs and debuffs and that Tanks aren't as necessary as before. Then you post this? It may not have been conscious, but it's definitely a factor. And why am I not surprised to find the king of the argument for making buffs/debuffs weaker has already found his way here...

If you honestly think 8 defenders is godmode...

Then you've never played on a team with 8 defenders.

Just like tri-form Warshades... all-defender teams are at one of two extremes. They either do exceptionally well, or crash and burn faster than you can blink.

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Since I haven't played a tanker in over a year, the decline of tankers was a note of interest to me but not the point of this thread. I was playing controllers and am now playing blasters. But I don't expect reality to impact your opinion.

I have not played on a team with 8 defenders. I have played on teams of all controllers and defenders. The result is godmode. I do believe that players can screw up any build or team - I assume from your post that you fall into that category.

I recognize that people who rely upon broken mechanics as a crutch for their poor skills are often terrified that their uber abilities will be taken away and that you are acting according - it may not have been concious, but it's definitely a factor.

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Link

That thread is pretty much the reason for this one.

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Actually it is not but nice attempt at inductive reasoning. Trying to find a master plan in my posts is giving me far too much credit.

I've been playing a controller, and teaming with controllers and defenders. On a two person team a defender is not very helpful, on an 8 person team a defender is amazing. The game seems to be designed around solo or 8 person teams with nothing in the middle.

It is bad design to have 2 defenders teaming be weak and 8 defenders teaming be godmode. The 2 defenders team should be strong and the 8 defenders team should be strong - maybe a bit stronger.

It is a question of balance. There should not be one best way to play the game. And currently there is - stacked buffers (and debuffers but that's another topic) are godmode a duo of buffers is weak. That's bad design and invites abuse.

team buffs have a mechanics problem. Teams vary in size from 1-8 so a buff that applies to everyone on the team is multiplied in effectiveness from 1x to 8x. Either a buff is useless for small teams or godmode for large teams - or both.

What if team buffs had diminishing returns? Say 150% effectiveness for teams of 1-2, 125% for 3-4, 100% for 5-6, and 75% for 7-8 (numbers given are just an idea, the real numbers would need to be better balanced and more complex like (Y-1) X (12.5% + R/2.3).

That way buffs would be more useful on smaller teams and less powerful on bigger teams than they are now. A team buff should still give a bigger total boost on a large team but not 4x on an 8 person team what it does on a 2 person team.

amusing, it starts a bit slow

well done for the most part coordinating the emotes with the dialogue.

Many players post on the boards "don't nerf me" and "nerfing is bad". They don't have very detailed or persuasive arguments against being nerfed - because the simple truth is they are jealous. Jealous of those of us who have gone for months or years without being nerfed.

Not being nerfed is difficult, much more difficult than copying a fotm template - so this guide is not for everyone. There may be some who just are not able to learn how to not be nerfed. To those I offer my condolences. For the others I offer the "how not to be nerfed" guide.

Step 1: Deciding on your At
- Go to the AT forum and post "What is the best AT?" Ignore posts that mention that it depends on what you want to do, your style of play, etc. Just look for posts that seem authoritative and say something like "scr@pers rUle11!!". List the AT's that are said to be best and avoid them.

Step 2: Deciding on your power set
- go to the forum for the AT that you have chosen to play because it is not being pushed on new players like steroids on a high school pitcher. You do not even have to post on this forum. Just look at the titles of the threads. Any threads asking for help with a build - avoid those builds. Especially if you see 3+ threads asking for help with a particular build. Note that people building fotm builds are often not capable of gleaning information from similar threads so they need to start their own so they can be told EXACTLY how to create and play their character. This herd mentality and need for specific redundant information is your friend.

Step 3: Slotting your character
- The trick here is creativity. Slot to make the character fit the concept you want - long range, faster recharge, etc. Don't focus on just being good. Focus on being different. Remember that diversity adds enjoyment. Okay, I'm lying. Here you are just screwed and eat the nerf with everyone else - Doooom.


In conclusion - most nerfs can be easily avoided. The players post every day the AT's, power sets and powers that need to be nerfed. All you have to do is peruse the boards and realize that every post of "oMG IM S0 ub3R" is a call for a nerf. Which is why you should join me in playing an ill/kin controller, which are gimpy, horribly gimpy and desparately in need of some love from the devs.

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As I tried to make clear in my original post, this list is nowhere near exhaustive - it is simply here as a guide, not a complete and thorough listing. I make no mention of Kheldians, for example, who with their tri-form nature can cover any of these roles quite easily.

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I understand. It is just that you tend to have either both AT's from CoH or from CoV but not one of each in your examples. One from each would seem to be more useful.

nice list but some quibbles

Controllers make the best hitmen. They cannot knockout lt's with one attack but they can hold them. It is much easier for a controller to make a Tsoo Sorceror useless then a blaster. The blaster hits once and the Sorceror teleports away. The controller holds once and the sorc is stuck. TA controllers and others can hold bosses as well with two attacks.

Blasters and spike scrappers make great reapers - in CoH they are the reapers.

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Nobody likes escort missions... in any game.

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Agreed. It's just boring. You do it once, the newness is gone and it gets frustrating.

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I like them, and I like them as implemented.

I loved the new villains spawning after we rescued a hostage. I loved that the mission was really the mission - you didn't just clear the map and accomplish the mission as a side effect.

We fought our way in, found the hostages, and fought our way out. We weren't careful and got separated (just running too quickly and not paying attention). A spawn formed between us.

It made for a much more interesting mission then just clear spawn, move to next, rinse, repeat.

That said - having them run a bit faster would be nice but might spoil the effect.

I want escort missions - not turning them into click on blinkie mission by being able to "pick them up".

I want my variety to actually be different, not just a defeat all mission called something else.

I like TA as a defender primary because it means my controller gets it as a secondary.

Basically I get two controller sets.

I liked the first series. It felt like CoH.

This new series I can't stand. I doubt I will read the third issue. I had to force myself to finish the first one hoping it would get better - it didn't.

I agree totally with the OP. This is not a CoH comic book. It is not about superheroes, it is barely set in Paragon City, none of the characters are remotely likeable.

This is like somebody wanted to do an edgy, tedious comicbook and accidentally put the CoH name on it.