dugfromthearth

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Just remember that great writers break the rules - when it's necessary to the story.

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Hmm... no...

"Good writers follow the rules. Great writers know when to break them."

I agree that if someone comes into an arc and has no idea what to do, it's a problem. But I don't know if I'd call it 'great' to lay it all out in such plain language that there's nothing interesting to it, ya know?

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I absolutely agree with you.

And I beg you (I'm serious) quote the sentence or section of the guide that says otherwise. I am happy to repost my guide with more clarity. But I can't unless I am shown where it is unclear.

straight questions you can ask here

if you want someone to play your arc post here
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/postl...Board=villains

just so you know - the devs have created a ton of characters that can fight.

so if you design characters - you are doing the dev's work
if you are fighting - you are doing the dev's work

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"Look for clues" is perfectly clear. It's pretty much accepted that it means a blinky. After all, if you knew what you were looking for, half the time you wouldn't need to look for it.

And as for hostages being killed, not every map allows rescues, and no, sometimes you can't switch to one that does. Also, bad guys are bad. Sometimes they kill people.

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Fine, "look for clues" is perfectly clear. It hasn't mean click on blinkies in every mission I've seen it in. But it's perfectly clear. I will try not to let reality color my view.

I am fine with hostages being killed. It happens. I just don't consider it a plot twist. It is just done. That's my point. Many things authors consider to be plot twists just come across as commonplace occurances in MA. They are not surprising or shocking.

It's a superhero game. Having someone turn out to be secretly possessed by a demon and is actually evil and trying to steal your heart - in real life that's shocking. In MA that's just a normal story.

I am not a fan of plot twists in MA. I am a fan of plot development.

The problem with a plot twist is that you have to make the player:
1. realize it is a plot twist
2. care
3. think it makes sense but didn't figure it out too early.

realizing it is a plot twist is the hardest - if I am sent after "Bonesnap" in the briefing and find "Blood of Zuul" in the mission - I assume one of them is a typo. I don't assume that this was an intentional change. So you have to really emphasize that this is a deliberate twist.

caring - I expect that every contact will end up betraying me - it is just so common. Everyone seems to think it is clever and unique. I expect that every hostage will be killed before I get there, it is just so common. Everyone seems to think it is clever and unique.

3. not have players realize it too soon. This is painful when it happens. Because the plot is linear, a player who figures out the twist may have to do stupid things to continue the arc.

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I could be wrong, but I don't think the OP is saying that you should lay out the whole story in the first contact dialogue. I think what he's trying to say is that you need to at least have some type of hint of what's going on. If a contact just says, "I need you to go here and see what's going on", there's nothing there to hook the player into wanting to do the mission. There's no clear goal that you're looking to accomplish. If they said, "I need you to go to this place because there's a rumor that so-and-so might have done such-and-such", at least you have a purpose that would give you more incentive to do it. The rest of the story unfolds as you get more involved. One clue leads to another. But, there has to be something that gives you a clear reason for wanting to 'go investigate' in the first place.

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exactly - thank you for saying it better than I have.

It doesn't matter what actually happens in the arc. What matters is that the player believes that there is a story which they are going to see. Of course the author knows there is a story - the player does not.

the basic problem is efficiency.

if you try to be efficient you eliminate the other elements - basically the variety - from the game. The fastest way to gain XP is to fight endlessly without travel, reading story, etc.

If you run around exploring, talking, doing missions, etc in CoX - it is not a grind. You happen to gain xp and such while you are playing. But it is not efficient.

Devs cannot stop players from turning a game into a grind. They can just give the players options.

I like the grey skin and glowing eyes. I made several - I think they look a bit too human. It's fine up close, but when I tested my arc with them, they tended to look like the regular Hellions - horns aren't really enough (or unusual enough) to make them seem demonic.

Although I think you are right - have minions be fairly normal, and increase the corruption with lt's and bosses. Making the lt's look like fairly normal Hellions will probably make the whole group feel more like Hellions.

it's a bug.
they don't spout it when you enter the mission - but when you enter their area.

so if the map has multiple floors they say it when you enter the floor.

It is a very annoying bug.

"Not telling about Plan B? Yes - it's a desperate measure, he'd rather not go there and he certainly doesn't want to tell people he's willing to go there yet if it turns out he doesn't have to."

You shouldn't tell about Plan B. I say that you should feel free to change the plot.

Star Wars plot as told to Luke - we have this droid with information, we find a pilot and fly to Alderan and give them the plans.

The get there and the planet is blown up and the plot changes - perfectly fine. Luke knew that there was a plan and what the big picture was. It changed, and he found out it changed.

Bad Star Wars: Luke is told to go to find a pilot. Finds pilot, told to fly to planet. Get to planet, told there is a secret to tell to king. He feels like a chump the whole time.

Note that in Star Wars Luke doesn't start out knowing about the secret plans, the rebellion, etc. But the audience does. The movie starts off with text about the Death Star, and Leia being captured.

Detective stories do not start out "look around the office and see if something happened". They start off with someone being killed and the detective knowing from the start the crime committed, its importance - then they try to figure it out.

so your new version is closer to what I said. But still not what I said.

"I think that telling a player in the first contact text what the entire story is going to be is a bad move."
your words - is not
"Tell the player what the plot is – but feel free to change it. "

The plot is not the entire story. You keep using words like "entire" and "exactly". Which are not what I said.

It is not paraphrasing to change the meaning of my guide.

For instance I could claim that you said that the first mission should consist only of clues which tell exactly what is going to happen and reveal ahead of time all of the plot twists. Of course you didn't say that. But I could "paraphrase" to mean that.

And a mission arc is not a movie - if you write one like a movie, it will be bad. In a movie the audience is passive. They watch the events unfold and cannot control them. In an arc the player must feel that they and their character are in control. Arcs where you just do what you are told are lame - people have complained about them for years.

Bundle of Steel

wow that sounds awesome.

sounds like custom groups can be very cool now - no more every devices has web grenade

I won't redo. Tweaking definitely.

But what I really want is the burning forest map back.

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"Look for clues" I don't like. Nothing screams at the player (I play without sound, so that's literally true). If you really set up the mission as being a detective story - I might by it. But for general superheroes it just feels both bland and out of place.

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So you're not a fan of Batman the Animated Series then?

I had a very long lengthy response to your guide that my crashed internet ate so you're getting the shorter version now. But I really really really really strongly disagree with your "missions have to be clear in all ways" and "Tell the player exactly what to expect from start to finish."

What that does is make the mission nothing more than a game of killing mobs and not thinking a moment about the why, or the how beyond "yes I have a good reason for doing this".

Good storytelling requires the storyteller to hold the audience in some form of suspense from start to finish. There has to be an incentive to read the next page in the book, to go into the next chapter, otherwise why continue? Even with the 18th century convention of titling chapters with "In which we discover... blah blah.." the title was vague enough to get the reader to go "wait, what? How'd that happen?" and then read on.

I would really suggest that ~great~ arcs have you guessing from start to finish but when you reach your climax and then resolution every stray detail makes sense.

A writer should lay it all out at the top, seed the story with hints and forshadowing, and then go from here.

Mr. O

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Batman is a detective.

"Tell the player exactly what to expect from start to finish."

I just did a search and that sentence you quoted never appears in my guide. So I appreciate that you made up your own guide, pretended that I wrote it, and then attacked it.

Now could you read my guide and comment on it?

nope, you are stuck with a 20-40 lvl mission.

link?

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Hudson Hawk died at the box office, but it's one of my top favorite movies.

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Blade Runner.

Poor box office, disliked by the critics.

Now considered a visionary classic.

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Yes, and it is a great movie.
But Hudson Hawk is better.

Please, ladies and gentlemen, please calm down. Listen to me!
We've been thrown off course just a tad.
In space terms, about 70 million miles.
The bumps you feel are car-sized asteroids smashing into the hull.
Also, we're heading right for the sun and can't seem to change course.
We're also out of coffee.

I will add yours to my list to try.

I find that what an author thinks is clever and acceptable and what a player does is often very different.

Small maps make up for just about everything - you can have a defeat all and the vaguest clues in a map with 5 spawns. Putting that on Outdoor Map 2 and it is very different.

The pile of bones, bodybag, etc I am okay with - because you still have some idea.

"Look for clues" I don't like. Nothing screams at the player (I play without sound, so that's literally true). If you really set up the mission as being a detective story - I might by it. But for general superheroes it just feels both bland and out of place.

california looked good, but I tend to play after 9 (after daughter goes to bed).

SG's are a problem. Large SG's either function like PuG's or there's a small group that plays together and the others are there just for filler. Small SG's are generally more social and inclusive - but often no one is on.

there is an arc I've just seen reviewed
A Tangle in Time - 2622

I haven't played it, but the review says it is repeating missions with time travel - and it is rated 5 stars.

So it can be done.

being able to place objectives would be ideal.

but other things could work:

guaranteed front, middle, back placement.

leveled maps letting you choose for certain which level it is on (so a 5 level map would give you 5 areas of placement)

one guaranteed front of mission spawn (your ally could be there, or something you want them to see first).

triggering things to appear in the same room/spawn - so destroy an altar and the demon appears there, not an ambush and not in some random location

having clickies that trigger always appear, but just get made clickable when triggered - so you see the altar as you are going through even if you can't click on it. When you get told to destroy the altar you might remember where it was.

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- Do Not Repeat a Mission
If the purpose of mission 1 is to destroy a mind control device, do not have mission 2 be to destroy another mind control device (same with finding out information, preventing a kidnapping, etc). Repeating the same purpose in another mission feels like filler, even with a cool map. Maybe another hero or the police took out the other devices. Or maybe there was only one (you are writing the arc, you make it fit your needs). The plot needs to develop – that’s how a story works.

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I'm still kicking over an issue with this rule. I agree with it in theory, but the arc I'm working on right now is sort of like a time travel thing and part of it I was thinking to do would involve a follow-up to a previous mission where you'd go back and undo something you did earlier, which would mean - yes - the same map, pretty much the same clickies, etc. There'd be a cosmetic change or two along the way, but...

Anyone got any ideas on that? Think it's worth it or too likely to annoy? There's a reasonable chance I may drop it anyways as I have six missions in my head for the arc, but for some reason that's one to many.

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You can always try it and see what you and people think. When movies and tv shows have someone re-do something - they make it shorter the next time. Think Groundhog day - you don't go through the entire day each time. That would be boring.

You can't really do that here. But you can make the mission short to begin with.