Xanatos
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Posts
2017 -
Joined
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Cien I am having a hard time discerning your "roleplaying" posts from your normal posts.
Are you always in character? -
Quote:Taking superjump and superspeed to follow people doesn't allow you to match their speed?Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Also currently the counters to folks running away that Xan posted are completely loltastic in the age of "Phase shift and Hibernoob every time you take significant damage." All those counters only work on complete noobs.
Veteran players are immune to the -jump from web grenade?
If players phase, I'm not able to also phase and carry on hitting them?
Players "escape" by hitting hibernate?
Your post implied all the above. Very confusing. I agreed with the rest of your post though. -
Quote:I'm not trying to sound like a pro or anything. But I wanted to put your experiences into perspective. You said travel suppresion helped you kill people. I was hoping we could get into a discourse where I demonstrated that wasn't the case. (I.e. that your tank would have been just as capable of killing those exact same tagets in Issue 13.)Originally Posted by Fanservice
Hah! Well that isn't a set up to you going "Well obviously you're playing it wrong/everyone you played sucks as I'd never die to that" is it? I'll pass, we don't need to turn this thread into me defending my experiences over yours. We both think PvP isn't very good now, I just think it wasn't very good before either.
If your tank is only capable of killing easy targets then i's not exactly fair to say that travel suppression is helping him do that. Easy targets are easy targets regardless of the system.
I don't understand this at all. People with superspeed/superjump are STILL jumping around like "mexican jumping beans". People without travel powers STILL can't keep up. Travel Suppression has not helped to alleviate this. So I find it very odd that you think it HAS.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
I don't think the current system is great. It's still really kind of bad but it's more fun than everyone bouncing around like Mexican Jumping Beans firing off powers at range or diving down to gank the unlucky sod who got nicked with a Web grenade. So I'd prefer they didn't take a step backwards if they did anything at all to PvP. They need to make it more appealing to everyone, not just a small group of people who are keen enough to level up new characters everytime the FOTM of old is nerfed/changed/found to have a flaw.
Also, due to DR (diminishing returns) the list of viable character power combinations has decreased. What this means is that less builds are viable and that FOTM characters are much more prevalent now than they used to be. Simply put: in the old system there was a lot more variety on what you could play. Now? Not so much.
All of this is a separate discussion though. And it would be one i'd be happy to entertain once Travel Suppression and Heal Decay are removed. Comparing pre & post issue 13 PVp isn't helping anyone as both systems were not very good. One thing is painfully obvious though: Heal Decay and Travel Suppression need to be removed from the game. -
Quote:Cole controls the Hamidon and used it to help him take over the planet. It's all one big lie. There was no "massive battle", it was all a PR stunt.Originally Posted by Golden Girl
The devs have said that there's a huge secret that we'll discover on the Underground Trial in I21 that will "shatter the world of Praetoria permanently" - on the Trial, we fight loyalists as well as the DE before we confront the Avatar of the Hamidon and learn the secret
Calling it now. -
Quote:Melee (scrapper/tank/brute) isn't useless. They can be good tauntbots/web grenaders. That is an immensely useful role in pvp because not only does taunt limit who people can attack - but it also reduces range. This can affect damage dealers, healers, etc. The web grenades can keep people grounded. (making it harder for people to escape.) A well played taunter makes a much bigger difference than a melee character trying to be a damage dealer in PVP. (This applies to both pre and post Issue 13 PVP.)Originally Posted by Fanservice
Yes I am! Admittedly it's only because Rage in Super Strength rocks the house but it works nicely in flattening out people if I have a little time to wail on them. Which I do because they can't run away incredibly easily. If we're back to the bouncy, chasey game then no I can't because Melee is pretty useless in that playstyle.
Blaster keeps killin the squishies? Taunt him and he won't be able to.
Healer keeps healing the squishies?* Well then taunt him and the range of his heals drops dramatically, making it much harder for him to heal, and placing him closer to the action.
Sadly melee characters don't have a role outside of being a tauntbot in most types of PVP in this game. (This applies to both pre and post Issue 13 PVP.) Unfortunately though, melee characters are pretty much the most popular archetypes in this game. That's why fight club was invented though. Plenty of people enjoy standing still and wailing on each other. Just like in comic books. It's a very slow type of PVP. It's not dynamic in the slightest, and I find it to be incredibly dull. But people do enjoy doing it. People enjoy CHOOSING to do it.
More power to them if they want to do melee vs melee slugfests. That kinda thing can be pretty cool. But don't force every non-melee archetype to move slowly in an ATTEMPT to make all PVP like that. It doesn't help melee types; they're still marginalised by ranged damage dealers, they still don't really kill anything, they're still just glorified tauntbots.
As for you being able to kill people with a tank due to travel suppression. Well I have a few questions to help put your anecdotes into perspective:
-What travel powers do you have in these instances of you "killing people"?
-What travel powers do your opponents have in these instances of you "killing people"?
-What % of their health bar are you responsible for depleting in these instances of you "killing people"?
-Do you use any ranged attacks in these instances of you "killing people"?
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*Let's pretend for the sake of argument that heal decay doesn't exist and people play healers. -
Quote:Do you PVP currently?Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
It wouldn't make it more fun for me. Every time I've done PvP in the past, easily the biggest problem that outright ruined my experience has been travel powers as used by myself and other players. Nothing sucks more than getting the upper hand on a difficult opponent, only for him to fire up Super Jump and disappear over the hill.
Travel Suppression doesn't stop those with superjump/superspeed from having the upper hand though. If you have those powers, and your opponent does not, you will be able to escape them 9 times out of 10. It does not solve any of the problems it was built to fix. (The main one being players being stuck in long rooted power animations while the enemies speed away. This will still happen if you don't have superspeed or superjump)
The problem is when both players have those powersets, yet are forced to PVP really slowly. This helps neither player. It slows down both players. And it makes PVP less fun/dynamic for both players. I know the intention was to help melee builds. But it simply does not work.
I know many of you dislike the "bouncing superspeed" style of gameplay...but with any competitive game there is going to be some sort of barrier to entry. If you want to keep up with other players who have given up powers/slots so they can be fast...why should you not have to do the same?
Well then do the following:Quote:Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's really my biggest problem - fighting people who can get out of a fight instantly is just no fun.
-take superspeed/sumperjump and follow them
-use web grenades to stop them jumping
-use slows to stop them running (This only worked before issue 13 sadly.)
I mean come on. As annoying as it no doubt was to have people speed away from you in Issue 13...there were still counters to it. If you let it happen it was your fault. These days there is no counter to travel suppression. The fault for lack of fun lies with the system instead...so people have stopped playing PVP in this game.
Issue 13 did not change your role as a tank though. You are pretty much still just a taunter. I know this because one of my main characters is a tank. Outside of Fossilize they do awful damage. You are not suddenly capable of killing because of Heal Decay and Travel Suppression.Quote:Originally Posted by Fanservice
If there was no Travel Suppression then I'd be back to being a Taunt Bot as a Tank, rather than someone who can actually kill. -
Quote:I'm more than happy to have an unofficial sit down off-the-record chat with any of the development, QA, or CR team about anything to do with PVP. I don't think chatting about it, publicly, on the forums would be a good idea.Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
I think we need to have a civil discussion with Synapse. He's the main powers guy now and seems to be pretty cool. But if he pokes his head in here and the usual suspects jump down his throat tossing the same old insults, don't be surprised if the conversation ends abruptly and nothing gets changed.
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Quote:Why is heal decay a good thing in any capacity? It doesn't remove heal spamming. It removes healers. People just don't play them in PVP. There is no skill/enjoyment involved in the system artificially forcing you to heal progressively less and less. You don't "time your heals"...because PVP these days is just mindless damage spam. So while you wait to "time your heals"...your team-mates are DYING.Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Heal decay shouldn't be removed either, from my perspective. Both are good things. But I definitely agree that they're both too crippling with their current values, and should be toned down quite a bit.
Travel suppression really should completely stop affecting the caster of melee attacks, and should be lessened for the recipient of ranged attacks. (The source of a ranged attack or the target of a melee attack should continue to be suppressed as current.)
Heal decay is a stupid system that should be removed from the game.
I have no idea why you suggest TS should only be removed from melee classes. That's a horrendous idea. It should be removed completely to level the playing field. If I am able to evade your attacks I shouldn't be slowed down by anything other than actual in-game slows. Making everyone an easy target is a BAD BAD BAD design for a PVP system. Absolutely horrible.
The simple fact is that removing Heal Decay and Travel Suppression would make for a much more enjoyable level of PVP in City of Heroes. This goes not only for the hardcore PVP community, but also for the casual, zone, and RPVP communities. I know this because I participate in all areas of COH PVP. (Population willing.) I'd also suggest that any new players entering the game with Issue 21: COH Freedom would find PVP more enjoyable without their healing powers being limited for no reason and their characters being slowed down for no reason. As this change would require minimal resources at most, I can't see any reason why it would not go ahead. I mean - given the dwindled PVP population, and everyone who PVPs hating heal decay and travel suppression - what possible reason could there be for keeping them in the game? -
Quote:Yes it would.Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
No, it wouldn't make PvP more fun for everyone.
Plus, <insert Standard Code Rant here>.
And it wouldn't affect the code at all. It would be two numeric values altered. Trust me. -
And to anyone capable of making changes who might happen to read this:
1. I am not asking for PVP to be fixed. (BIG TASK.)
2. I am asking for HEAL DECAY and TRAVEL SUPPRESSION to be removed from the PVP zones. (LITTLE TASK.) -
Quote:Music to my ears mate. PVP is, in my opinion, an endless source of endgame content.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Fair enough. How about some anecdotal, personal experience.
I want a game with PvP. It's one of the things that makes a game challenging, because let's face it, the AI is only difficult for so long. Lambda was impossible, then a breeze two weeks later. Keyes was the same. PvP is always new, always changing and always challenging, because players adapt.
It's gone so far that I need a new game. I've tried a pretty popular F2P one that didn't turn out so good. Now I'm on to a new one (I'll be detailing that experience in my blog). This time it's a subscription game, and I've only got room in the budget for one at a time. I'm paid up here till November, and the same with my new game. Come December, I'm leaving one of the two games.
If PvP were better here, this wouldn't even be a question as I wouldn't have had to look outside the City.
I know it's not for everyone. But I know a lot of people do have a casual interest in it. (RPVP events are always a massive success on virtue. Heroes fighting heroes and villains fighting villains are a huge part of the comic book mythos.)
Literally all the PVP that takes place in the game these days is in spite of heal decay and travel suppression. Not because of it. I know this for a fact. LITERALLY none of the PVPers, casual or hardcore, zone or arena, on any of the servers, actually enjoy heal decay or travel suppression.
If you're good at healing multiple team-mates it doesn't matter. The system forcibly slows you down.
If you're good at evading enemies it doesn't matter. The system forcibly slows you down.
Having the game system placing a hard cap on your ability level is frustrating. That is why your zones are dead. Diminishing returns does play a part. But the combination of heal decay and travel suppression is MUCH MORE influential in killing PVP dead.
Yeah that's actually my fault. I bumped the thread in question being a ******** yesterday and it got deleted due to necroposting. Castle basically said that he had a system to reinvent COH PVP but only some of his changes actually made it through to the real game. Hence why we have this jumbled mess right now.Quote:Originally Posted by Zamuel
Interesting thing about that is that Castle is the only dev to more or less apologize about it's current state. A post that's curiously missing.
While there is a lot to fix. Removing Travel Suppression and Heal Decay would go a long way to moving forward towards this and would make the PVP community (plus those returning for "COH:Freedom") feel like they have not been forgotten about by the dev team. It's not fair to say "just go and play in the arena then" because zone PVP can be a lot more fun and a lot more social. (Plus...why were the zones invented if not to help promote PVP outside the very cliquish PVP arenas?)
I appreciate the comments mate. But I'm not asking for PVP to be fixed/balanced. That would be a mammoth task and would take AGES. (One coudl even argue that PVP is even less balanced now than it was before Issue 13.) All I'm asking is that HEAL DECAY and TRAVEL SUPPRESSION are removed. This would make PVP more fun for everyone and would take about ten minutes of development time.Quote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
This.
Need to be specific about 'Zone PvP' for which Heal Decay and Travel Suppression can't be turned off as you can in the Arena.
But, even before I13, Zone PvP was already completely lulzy because there was no way to balance the number of people on teams. An open PvP zone is by its very definition, unbalanced and very, very, very Bad Idea.
I've been suggesting forever for those zones to be turned into PvP Tournament grounds with gated entry to balance numbers.
This.
Your only hope of Zone PvP being 'fixed' is if FREEDOM is wildly successful and as they revamp zones (as they are doing with the tutorial, Galaxy, Atlas Park, and Mercy), they revamp the PvP Zones.
Arenas are useless. Anyone anywhere can call up the Arena interface and enter a PvP event. You don't even need a terminal. And if you were going to add physical Arena meeting grounds, all you would need is the terminal, which you don't even need.
/arenalist
Removing Heal Decay and Travel Suppression from PVP would definitely appease freedom players as it would incentivise them to play competitively and would give them a taste of end-game COH. They would then subscribe (so they can get IOs) and buy going Rogue. (So they can get incarnates.) -
I prefer big massive events in-game, and detailed RP stories/campaigns/etc out of the game. In-game RPing tends to be little more than a soap-opera. I still do it though, but my preference is for the prior types mentioned.
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Quote:Plus one of the community peeps said there was going to be no changes to PVP before Issue 21. Maybe at the SAME TIME as I21 is released though...Originally Posted by Leandro
Not gonna happen. Powers devs have been working in the Time Manipulation set and in Proliferation 3.0. That leaves no development time for PVP at all.
And as I said in my post. These changes would take minutes. Not hours. Not days.
Minutes. -
Quote:I would work for them, free of charge for one week, and would completely fix their PVP system.Originally Posted by Leandro
Well, the PVP redesign was Castle's baby and he's gone, so the new Powers devs might have new ideas on how to tackle PVP.
Real talk. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
It could happen - CoH: Freedom would be a could time to do it.Exactly.Quote:Originally Posted by DumpleBerry
Just before Freedom launches is the BEST time to do it. Don't waste this opportunity.
Xan is right. Sure, there are a lot of problems with PvP mechanics right now--but changing heal decay and travel suppression alone would interest me in it again. -
Quote:Contribute something useful to the thread other than tired memes then.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I'd love to PvP were the system not broken as all hell.
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Quote:Thanks for sharing your mildly-relevant anecdote. I'm still waiting for the part where you disagree with me.Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
You're simplifying Posi's explanation... and that creates a use of the term "farm" that's so broad that it becomes meaningless. Entire genres of games (from pacman through mario to some of the latests a-listers) would be considered nothing but "farms." There would be no need to differentiate between "raids" and "farms" and "street hunts" and "grinds" and any of the other terms we use to define gameplay.
Put into historical context of MMO's, you had "hunters" that would run around instances, find new mobs, and kill them. A person that found a good respawn point (usually, but not always, with unique drops) settled down to just that spot. Just as hunter-gatherers settled down into farmers, "farming" seemed a natural name to give it.
In this early state, the proponents of "farming" defended the practice as a form of the Bartle "explorer" gameplay. While poking and prodding at the game, you find things that give better reward (over time and/or over challenge) than the way the devs anticipated (or intended), and then you pause to take advantage of that discovery. Developers often DID offer some perks out there FOR explorers to discover- things that just worked better and gave somewhat-better reward rates. The explorer thus saw "farming" as a badge of honor, and the responsible explorer knew to exercise judgement and to report something that they thought went "too far." They were treading in a gray area-- if the farm was TOO effective, they'd be exploiters, and they couldn't easily read a dev's mind to tell where they'd measure that threshold. Early farmer-explorers were some of the best bug-reporters early MMO-devs had.
The problem became that many explorers didn't report questionable discoveries to the devs. Some had the attitude of "if they let it in the game, we can use it... and if they can't find it, too bad." They were broken pieces of the game (exploits) that, if stumbled over once or twice weren't particularly bad, but when FARMED, they could lead to real trouble-- and many exploits in games were farmed to disastrous levels for the MMO. Thus, "farming" came to be known as synonymous with "exploiting" among non-farmers and MANY in the community started putting a lot more anger behind that word.
Finally, we have latecomers that never understood the history of a "farm" or caught the significance of tying optimizing reward into the definition. They incorrectly used "farm" for... well... virtually every kind of grind they encountered. Any kill-all activity. Anything where the primary effort is to run around and beat up stuff. It saves them the "boring time" traveling point to point, and they don't pause to read stories. To them, that's "farming" and they're fine with it... and they don't see the issue with farming because they're using the words in ways that the people who rail against a farm would find absurd (*I* find it absurd).
You can say its all relative and we all should be able to use the word however we want, but from an operational standpoint, the most-broad definition serves no useful function- it defines virtually nothing that "playing" doesn't, and there are more descriptive terms (hunts, raids, missions, "kill[ing] skuls") that offer better function. You just can't exclude the whole "gray area" of optimizing risk/time/reward without eliminating any useful meaning the word may have. -
What are the chances of this happening? I know trying to fix the horrendously broken Issue-13 PVP system is not going to happen because to do so would take up a lot of development time.
But surely turning off Travel Suppression and Heal Decay is as simple as changing two numerical values. That would take, at most, ten minutes of development time.
It would definitely be a step in the right direction to fixing the PVP experience in COH.
Inb4: "lolpvp", "this isn't a pvp game", "the devs don't care about PVP", etc... -
That is quite possible the longest post CF has ever written.
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Quote:HoF arcs give regular rewards? I thought that was just "Dev Choice" arcs?Originally Posted by Verene
The devs are paying attention - you'll notice that the HoF farms don't have the regular rewards option that story HoF arcs do.
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Quote:Only funny thing in thread.Originally Posted by Zwillinger
Not real response.
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Quote:Well yeah obviously it's a business decision. The vast majority of customers care more about the new shiney than the old stuff. But customer retention relies on the old stuff working to an acceptable degree. (Because all current stuff eventually becomes old stuff.)Originally Posted by Sente_
It is a business decision most likely - will we get the money we invest on fixing this back, either by gaining new subscribers/paying customers or avoid losing too many customers.
If the answer is no, it gets a lower priority than things that might provide better opportunity for revenue and profit increase.
So when you look at COH's old stuff - PVP, Base Building, and now AE. And all you see is a series of bugs and failed targets, you have to wonder if NCSoft really cares about customer retention. To me it seems like their main aim is to make people chase the shiney new stuff (at the expense of the old stuff) as a means to steamroll in COH2 in around two years.
I am genuinely worried that COH is basically just a hype machine for COH2 right now. The game going F2P isn't helping to alleviate my paranoia
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Quote:Nah Positron himself said it was running the same content over and over due to rewards.Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
the argument could be made that farming is about maximizing rewards while minimizing risks. while eventually getting level shifts and running with a solid crew minimizes chances of failure on incarnate trials, they lack the capacity to truly minimize risks in the way most successful farms have.
you can report farms and get them shut down, right? or has that fallen by the wayside?
Wonder if he's going to ban anyone for running the iTrials over and over.
On a serious note though. I wouldn't worry about this. The dev team tend to COMPLETELY ignore old systems (pvp, base building, etc) when they have a new system to focus on. Now that incarnate stuff is the new shiney, I can't imagine the AE will get any attention.
I mean look at this thread about how the word "Paragon" is on the AE banlist. So many normal words are banned and the vast majority of old arcs are full of bugs.
Alas poor AE I knew you well... -
Any thread about recent changes is good for forum pvp.
The Champion League is also good. -
The incarnate endgame content is basically farming.
*shrug*
Get with the times Positron 180.