Whataguy

Leveling up a Stone/stone presently; he's 22 now and looks a lot like the Meatshield build posted by Rox. Lots of fun. This guide is still relevant on how the set plays.

I took Mud Pots early and have skipped Taunt so far. I see the pros and cons. Aggro has been mostly handled due to Mud Pots, but the endurance cost is simply crushing. Mud Pots essentially made me skip both of the hammer attacks for now, though I plan to go back and pick them up. Thank goodness for veteran reward attack powers .

Even at 22, with Stamina and SOs in End Redux, Rock Armor + Crystal Armor + Rooted + Mud Pots = a lot of endurance usage. You simply can't maintain a constant attack chain without help from teammates or chewing blue inspirations. I am hopeful that IOs sets will help reduce the end cost further on everything. The endurance problems get even trickier if you use TP, as you can TP into a mob and use up your last bit of endurance, instantly detoggling yourself. :P Sound ridiculous? It is, but I've done it!!

I also agree that Taunt is pretty key. I have missed it, and wished I had it when bad guys across the room attacked.

All that said, if you can make it to level 22 (SO slotted Stamina), it's worth the wait. I took Fault at 22 and it is a wonderful power too.

A few constructive criticisms:

First, overall I think you should try to make the guide an Issue 11 guide. In other words, focus on the newer aspects of the game. Much of the content of your guide can be found in other places and the content is not terribly different from the older guides other than some of the powers that have been tweaked through the issues. You could explore the IO sets at different levels in greater detail (i.e., not just a level 50 build), talk about Defiance 2.0 and AR, etc. You could also discuss tactics and a variety of different AR/dev builds.

Specifically, I would also argue that Stamina needs to be taken at level 20, and would push back Targeting Drone and Cloaking Device to make that happen. AR uses as much endurance as any set, and adding toggles to that makes Stamina that much more of a priority.

That said, I am a fan of AR/Dev and glad to see it getting some love. It is an absolute monster to play in large teams with good aggro management, and I would take my AR/Dev over any other blaster in that scenario, including a Fire/Fire.

I just wanted to throw in a few comments in support of PK.

I have a FF/nrg who's level 14 now. I have taken PFF, FB, the three bubbles, and Detention Field. I have discovered that Detention Field is one of the least-used powers in the game -- I get a lot of "WTH is that!" type comments. I have found DF most useful (a) in panic situations and (b) in large teams to get the second or third boss in the rear echelon of a spawn. By the time the melee heroes get to the DF target, it has usually worn off. This is especially true if you are fighting higher level mobs, as the duration of DF scales based on the relative levels of the bubbler and the target.

That said, DF is clearly inferior to a controller's hold power, which does damage and allows the target to be attacked. On a team with a good controller or two, DF is probably not needed. I see nothing wrong, though, with taking it and slotting it with one accuracy enhancement and leaving it at that.

Also, I should comment on the synergy of /nrg with FF. More knockback is good, as long as you position yourself properly. Also, the set delivers both smashing and energy damage, which is nice as few mobs resist both well.

Anyway, thanks for the hard work, PK, and know that there are a few of us who embrace the FF set. I look forward to getting all of the FF powers, even if I don't heavily slot them. I will eventually have the Flight, Fitness, and Leadership pools.

Thanks for doing the math. I am concerned, however, about a huge missing factor: team size. See this thread for more:

Drop Rate vs. Team Size thread

Essentially, drops are not scaling properly for team size (like XP does). You are presently penalized for teaming because of this. Your calculations are fine for soloing, but are way off for anyone who teams.

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Does your suggested IO price account for a "present value" discount for not having to upgrade the enhancement later, as with a SO?


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Yes, that is pretty much the whole point of the post, to do that math :P

- Protea

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Thanks for marginalizing my reply. Seriously, I was attempting to add something to the conversation.

According to your table, you suggest a price of 120k influence for a level 30 IO, apparently halving the projected future cost that an SO-user would have spent to keep up with performance, yes? That's one valid way of looking at it, but it seems high to me (about triple the cost of a level 30 SO), because the IO-user is paying that cost entirely up front.

Did you account for the possibility that someone would replace that generic IO with a set IO, HO, or higher-level IO? That possibility should be applied as a further discount to the present value. At level 30, a player has no way of knowing if or when he will replace that slotted generic IO.

That's why I think twice the price of a same-level SO is a fair rule of thumb for IO pricing, but I'd like you to explain the discounting theory underlying your pricing.

Protea:

Does your suggested IO price account for a "present value" discount for not having to upgrade the enhancement later, as with a SO?

At level 25, if I buy and keep a generic 25 IO, I will never have to upgrade it (at progressively higher amounts) at 29, 34, 39, 44, and 49 as I would with a 25 SO. Discounted for present value (because i'm not realizing all of those cost savings immediately) and for the possibility that I may replace the generic IO later (for a set, perhaps), I guesstimate that a generic IO is worth twice a same-level SO, as a general rule of thumb.

Obviously, at higher levels, the "savings" realized from not having to upgrade is much less, because there are fewer future upgrades to be done, but this may be offset by the increased IO performance at higher levels.

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I'd like to see your build, Whataguy. At the very least I'd like to be able to compare it side by side with the OP's one. I am more interested in a traditional tank (get the aggro, hold the aggro, shrug off damage all day) than I am in being a pseudo scrapper, but I found some interesting points in the OP build. Did you take the medicine pool? For character concept, I'd prefer not having to use the little tricorder thingy, but if Aid Self is needed for Invuln tanks, then I will work around it.

Thanks to both of you for the information and food for thought!

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Whataguy did not take Tough (or its prerequisite) or Aid Self (or its prequisite). This freed up four powers and about 5-10 extra slots that are typically devoted to these powers. This allowed him to invest heavily in the primary, secondary and energy APP. He had plenty of slots by level 50 to play with. Whataguy did not have capped resistance (from Tough) or regeneration (from Aid Self), but his defense is actually quite good with Invincibility, tough hide, and hover going. Other than against Psi-heavy mobs, he is able to team tank anything.

Under i9, the extra slots will likely be used to get set bonuses in powers he normally wouldn't have 6-slotted.

His build is built around developing an attack chain, getting taunt, and having TI and Unyielding all by level 10. By 20, having Stamina, Invincibility, and Whirling Hands. By 40, having Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer, Total Focus, and Whirling Hands 6-slotted. When I hit 22, I focused on getting Stamina and my toggle defenses 4 slotted with SOs. After that, offense took priority.

Got my Apprentice of Cones (tm) up and running, level 13. Having a blast so far. Some thoughts and questions:

1. M-30 grenade is very helpful when teaming with a tank that can manage aggro.
2. Endurance is becoming an issue in the teens (big surprise). the M-30 is part of that.
3. I have not taken any /nrg powers yet except power thrust and build up. I am really reluctant to use powers that put away the frankengun.
4. When Boost Range comes online, are you finding that its activation and gun re-draw is a hassle or interruption?

Thanks for the great guide!

Just wanted to offer the five- rating for this guide. Its references to other threads and guides truly help a user understand the subject more fully. Building on the work of others is tricky, but you've done a wonderful job.

My Inv/Fire is at 28. He's got TI, DP, UY, TH, Invince, ResEl, and ResEn. On the fire side, Scorch, FS, Combustion, FSC, and Air Superiority. Flight and the Stamina tree make up the rest.

This is the first tank I've played to this level without Taunt, and I have to say it's been easier than I expected. I will take it sooner or later, but between Combustion, Invincibility, and FSC, I haven't needed it yet.

Combustion is a wonderful aggro-generation power. It is the only fiery melee power I've been able to six-slot, but it's been worth it. I'm hoping to get FSC to that slotting level soon too. Because of the AoEs, my Inv/Fire is actually a better team tanker than my Inv/EM.

My rules for tanking would be:

1. Generate aggro through auras, taunt, and AoEs -- don't rely on Gauntlet
2. Don't lock in on one target and ignore what's going on around you -- your role is to protect your teammates
3. Communicate constantly with your team and be the tactical leader, identifying targets and dangers.
4. Find a pace that suits the group and the difficulty of the mission.
5. Be flexible. Certain tactical situations require herding, pulling, and bleeding off aggro to others.
6. Have fun. This is a game. Don't be the aggro tyrant telling everyone what to do ... just lead and be clear about what you are doing.
7. Learn to assess the difficulty of the combat you are about to enter, and don't be afraid to ask nicely for a buff or spare defensive inspiration.

In sum: if you're not willing to generate aggro and otherwise protect your teammates, don't be a tank. Roll up a scrapper or brute instead.

One of your stated goals was to have a tank that could team in PvE. Without Taunt, your Inv/SS tank offers nothing to a team until Invincibility at level 18 -- until then your teammates would be better off with something, anything other than a tauntless, aggro aura-less scranker.

Inv has no aggro generation until Invincibility at 18. Without Taunt at 10, SS has no group aggro generation until hand clap at 16. Your supertank has nothing except Gauntlet, which is simply insufficient at low level in large (6+ player) groups.

I strongly suggest that any new players take Taunt at level 10 and then respec out of it later if they absolutely hate it. You are doing a disservice to new players who think they can join a large low-level team and do anything resembling tanking without aggro management abilities.

I agree with the other replies regarding Hasten. It is too much of an endurance hog for any Inv/- tank I've played. And superspeed is simply redundant with Flight. You can feel sufficiently Superman-ish and skip the Speed pool, IMO, while freeing up two power choices and 4 extra slots.

The key powers (all 5 smiley faces) are Temp. Invul, Dull Pain, Unyielding, and Invincibility. They, along with Tough Hide, need to be taken and slotted ASAP.

I agree with your comments about initial attack slotting for accuracy and endurance. Many of the guides focus on damage slotting early, which is a mistake.

I would caution new players reading this guide to be careful when choosing powers that seem to save you slots in other powers, such as Hasten, Focused Accuracy, and Conserve Power. It is easy to look at these and say, "hey, I can take these powers and never have to slot recharge, accuracy, or endurance reduction!! Gimme damage!" Unfortunately, all of these powers are endurance hogs and/or are not always available. Plus, if you ever have an artificially reduced level from being an Exemplar, many of your high-end powers will be unavailable and your optimized slotting will fail you. My advice would be to take these powers as situational powers only; do not plan your build around them.

Inv/EM level 50 here. My tank is built for defense but always attacking.

If your toon is strictly a solo toon, then so be it. However, if your scranker does any teaming, your teammates are going to be in serious trouble. My comments are about the suitability of your build for a new player or a teaming tanker.

1. Your build has no aggro management tools, other than gauntlet, until you get Invincibility at 18 and Whirling Hands at 22. This is unacceptable. Take Taunt at level 10 and respec out of it later if you simply hate it.

2. Your build skips Health, which aids nicely in HP regeneration. 3-slotted health combined with Dull Pain will save your bacon in a long, tough fight.

3. You state a desire to take Hasten. After extensive playing with and without Hasten, I can tell you that the endurance burn from using Energy Transfer, Total Focus, and Bone Smasher frequently (not to mention a high-end toggle like Focused Accuracy) is prohibitive. Yes, it's nice to have Dull Pain and Build Up more often, but it's not worth it. Instead, I have gone with 1 ACC / 2 DAM / 1 ENDREDUX / 2 RECH slotting for ET, TF, WH, and BS. The loss in damage is offset by the recharge rate, and frequently the uber-damaging powers are overkill anyway (though it is fun to hit a Rikti Monkey with an Energy Transfer).

4. This one is personal preference, but to me a Passive Power > Toggle Power > Click Power. I like powers that do stuff without me having to do anything. I prefer to use my brain managing aggro, keeping the bad guys off my buddies, "quarterbacking" the team with team chat, and arresting opponents. That's why I like the passives in Invulnerability. They are not great, but they work with just the default slot and cost me no time or endurance. I have noticed a difference tanking Infernal when I don't have Resist Elements.

My Inv/EM "tanky tank" build has 8 of the 9 Inv powers (no Unstoppable) and ALL of the EM powers. I have Hover, Flight, and Swift/Health/Stamina, and Conserve Power and Focused Accuracy from the Energy APP. I have wavered over Unstoppable vs. Focused Accuracy, but other than that, I'm set. I have enough slots for everything (yes, I can even 3-slot the passives if I choose) and can handle any non-Psionic bad guy on the planet. I kept Taunt, so that I can either herd or wade.

I'm not sure who the "Unhappy Tanks" are, but in all likelihood they're folks who'd be better off with a Brute or Scrapper.

1. Pre-Build Considerations

Disclaimer: This build presumes that you want to primarily be a team support character through level 20. This is not a solo toon, and if you can't find a team it will be nearly impossible to get to level 20 if you build in this manner.

You first need to decide what travel power you want to take, which dictates certain parts of the 1-20 build.

2. The Build

Base Build
1. Healing Aura: your basic Area of Effect heal. Slotting: 3 Heal, 0-3 Recharge, 0-1 Endurance Reduction.
1. Secondary Blast (tier 1). Slotting: 1 Accuracy, 1-3 Damage.
2. Heal Other: your basic targetted heal. Slotting: 3 Heal, 0-3 Recharge, 0-1 Endurance Reduction.
4. Absorb Pain: the uber-heal, damaging you in the process. Slotting: 1-3 Heal, 0-3 Recharge. Taking this power is debated but having the third heal in your bag is very handy. I recommend it.
6. *
8. Resurrection: the name says it all. Slotting: 1 Recharge, 0-1 Endurance Reduction.
10. Clear Mind: prevents/removes status effects from teammates. Slotting: 1-3 Recharge.
12. *
14. *
16. Fortitude. A single target buff that is very nice for any offensive hero. Slotting: 3 Recharge, 0-1 Accuracy Buff.
18. Recovery Aura. The area of effect endurance recovery buff. Slotting: 3 Recharge, 0-3 Endurance Modification
20. *

The basic build is then modified based on the travel power selected. Each travel power suggestion uses 2 power pools, leaving open 2 additional power pools for later exploitation.

The basic build does not use Endurance Reduction enhancements because it assumes you are teaming. Defenders' Granted Power Vigilance ensures that you will rarely get low on endurance, particularly at low level (when fights are short). At higher levels, Recovery Aura will see you through, though an Endurance Reduction slot could easily be added on your toggles or high-endurance buffs if you are fearful of running out of endurance.

The Teleporting Empath

6. Recall Friend. Slotting: 1 Range.
12. Hover. Slotting: 1-3 Fly Speed, 0-3 Defense.
14. Teleport. Slotting: 1-3 Range, 1 Endurance Reduction.
20. open (Suggestion: secondary attack)

Comments: Hover is taken to provide safety while teleporting, so you don't drop out of the sky. Hover can also be a handy way to move around in combat and get a little knockback protection, but it must be 3-slotted for fly for this to be really feasible. The defense bonus is small but can be slotted up if you have the slots to spare. Teleporting is the fastest travel power.

The Jumping Empath
6. Recall Friend. Slotting: 1 Range.
12. Combat Jumping. Slotting: 1 Defense.
14. Super Jump. Slotting: 1 Jump.
20. Acrobatics: Slotting: 1 Endurance Reduction.

Comments: The Jumping Empath has the least slot-intensive of the builds and the best status protection, getting protection from Immobilize and Knockback and (a little) Hold protection. Super Jump is one of the slower travel powers overall and carries a risk of landing in a pack of angry bad guys. There are also certain times at high level when Jumping just won't get you where you need to go.

The Flying Empath
6. Recall Friend. Slotting: 1 Range
12. Hover. Slotting: 1-3 Fly Speed, 0-3 Defense
14. Fly. Slotting: 1-3 Fly Speed, 1 Endurance Reduction
20. Open (suggestion: Secondary attack)

Comments: The flying empath enjoys the most versatile (but slowest) of the travel powers, flight. There are times when Flight is the only thing that will do. However, Hover and Flight work best when slotted, so it is fairly slot intensive. This combo offers only Hover's "ghetto" knockback protection and no other status protection.

The Speedy Empath
6. Hasten. Slotting: 3 Recharge.
12. Recall Friend. Slotting: 1 Range.
14. Superspeed. Slotting: 1 Run Speed, 1 Endurance Reduction.
20. Open (Suggestion: Concealment. Slotting: 1 Endurance Reduction).

Comments: The Speedy Empath is tremendous fun with a few significant drawbacks. Super speed is fast and Hasten, its prerequisite, frees you from having to put a ton of extra recharge enhancements on your basic heals. When combined with Concealment, Super Speed provides you with the equivalent of invisibility. This allows you (with Recall Friend) to penetrate to the end of a mission, teleport your friends to the boss, and end a mission quickly. This is critical in certain task force missions. Concealment also provides some defense, but eats up a power pool choice and uses endurance. Having Concealment also helps prevent you from running into a newly-spawned pack of bad guys and dying immediately. Remember that superspeed offers no vertical movement -- later you may want to take hurdle or combat jumping, at a minimum. This build also lacks status protection.

3. Playstyle

The Empath is inherently reactive, responding to threats to teammates. You should be watching the team status window as much (or more) than the main screen. Heal Other will be your main heal typically. If you need to heal yourself or give everyone a boost/top-off of health, fire off Healing Aura. Save Absorb Pain for tough situations, like when the Tanker is at 1/3 hit points or a squishie is about to die. Don't use Absorb Pain if your health bar is less than 1/2 -- if you do, you are in real danger of getting one-shotted.

I don't put Healing Aura on auto, but many people do. I prefer to save it for when I need it, and the recharge time can sometimes mess you up if you're on auto.

If you have another healer on your team, make sure to tell them that you use Absorb Pain, so they don't waste healing on you during the 10 seconds where you are un-healable.

Ask your teammates to tell you if they're held or slept, etc. so you can fire off clear mind. Clear mind should also be applied proactively to any character who attracts aggro that lacks status protection.

Fortitude is best used on Tankers, Blasters, and Scrappers. It is the best all-purpose buff in the game. With recharge enhancements and/or hasten, you should be able to keep it on 2 players at a time. Try to do so whenever possible. If they don't appreciate your heals, they will certainly appreciate fortitude.

Feel free to use your blasting attacks when you have time. Be wary of attacks that have a long animation/activation, as this will prevent you from firing off a rapid heal. Most of the tier one defender blasts (exception: Psychic) have a fast animation.

Recall friend is very handy but make sure you have permission before using it. It can be irritating to be TP'd before you're done seeing a contact, etc.

Finally, feel free to speak up about team issues (party is separated, controller keeps getting unnecessary aggro, etc.). The party knows a happy empath is a Good Thing.

Post-20 development

You should strongly consider developing your offense during the 20s. At a minimum, consider taking an Area of Effect attack, an attack with a status component (hold, sleep, etc.), and a high damage single target attack. At higher levels, you may be on teams where your healing is not necessary, so in such situations you are there to buff your teammates and contribute offensively. Just remember to avoid powers with a long animation/activation time, so you're not tied up at the wrong time.

By level 32 you should try to work in Regeneration Aura and Adrenaline Boost. These are handy high-end Empathy powers that will see regular use.

Due to Vigilance, this build does not require Stamina, but if you choose endurance-heavy power pools (like Leadership and Fighting), you might need it -- particularly if you also have Hasten and are firing off powers constantly.

You should plan on taking 2 or more of the Ancillary Power Pool powers at levels 41-50. The APP powers generally offer a control or defensive aspect that you don't have in your primary and secondary power sets, and help flesh out your character considerably.

Name: Whatateam
Website: www.geocities.com/whatateamsg
Leader or Recruiting Officers: Whataguy, Addagirl, Byzantian, Whatabeauty, Enfernoe
Preferred method of contact: whatateamsg@yahoo.com, in-game PM
Description: Are you wonderful? Do you admire yourself just for being you? In a city of heroes, it's easy to get lost in the shuffle. That's why I formed Whatateam(tm), a new, mid-level team of semi-roleplayers dedicated to playing our not-so-humble team of heroes. Loose and fun. Proper attitude is a must. Any AT is welcome. Check out the website to get a feel for us!

Whataguy, Inv/EM Tanker

The thread is old but remains true. Rule/game changes don't change the fundamentals of leadership.

I enjoy being the leader, and it's easiest to do it as the tanker. By managing aggro and leading into battle, you can seamlessly merge "team" leadership with "tactical" leadership. My Stone/SS tanker is great fun and since I'm not always spamming attacks/buffs/etc. I'm usually able to "quarterback" the team.

Leading takes a light touch. I find a sense of humor goes a long way, especially when times are tough. Success is also good for the team. I've changed missions for the team simply to get some "wins" under our belt and learn how we operate, even if the mission was not optimal xp-wise. Once you've succeeded together, the tough times are easier.

RE: playcalling, I try to limit it to picking which group of mobs to go after or identifying specific targets (quantums, etc.). There's a fine line between good playcalling and bossing around your team.

Tanking as the leader has the added bonus of being the "fulcrum" of the group ... and so the defenders will pay attention to your health bar. I'm amazed at how well they keep me "topped off" when I'm leader.

As far as team composition, my ideal team of 8 would be:

Me -- Tanker
Scrapper or Blapper
Empathy Defender
Kinetic Defender
Force Field Defender
Controller (any)
Blaster/Kheldian
Blaster/Kheldian

That team is defender heavy, but with all the buffs, aggro management and holds the blasters/khelds will be in heaven. Having both FF and Empathy allows the defenders to be more offensive during play.

I find two tankers to be unnecessary -- the team would be better off with a different AT.

Enjoy and agree with most of your comments on the much-maligned FF, the redheaded stepchild of Defender primaries.

I love force bolt. It is cheap, quick, and effective. I have it slotted presently (one each) for ACC, RNG, and KB. It rarely misses, and the extra KB helps to buy you another half-second or to get that guy over the cliff.

In supporting your melee teammates, Force Bolt is best used to keep knocking the bad guy up against a corner. It keeps the bad guy out of action but in range of your buddy hacking gleefully away. This kind of control plus your bubbles can make an empath unnecessary on small teams.

There are times, though, when you simply have no Defending to do as a FF Defender. This is why it's critical that you either have alternative support powers (Medicine pool, etc.) or slotted attack powers so that you remain busy. Knocking around bad guys simply because you have no other meaningful offense is a waste of time.

I know the OP is posting his /Rad comments and will likely be addressing this ... but I strongly suggest that in the 10-20 levels the FF/- Defender pick up one good attack power to complement the mandatory tier 1 secondary attack power. The snipe attack or high damage attack are good choices. I would stay away from AoEs, as you (you know, the one hero WITHOUT wonderful bubbles) will draw aggro, forcing you to turtle in your PFF or run away.

Not trying to hijack the thread, just wanted to lay it out there.