Werner
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Quote:I agree with your rough estimate for the bleeding edge. Away from that edge, I'm going to guess that the average Tanker has much more than double the average Scrapper survivability. Two main reasons, I think. First, Scrappers will often build for damage at the cost of survivability, while Tankers will often do the opposite. Second, I think it's easier to build for survivability on a Tanker, where a Scrapper requires a much firmer commitment.Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
There's been a discussion on the Tanker boards of top level scrapper vs top level tanker damage... my estimation was that at the bleeding edge scrappers probably had about double the damage and on the durability end tankers probably had double the survivability. That's comparing best combination to best combination of course. -
Quote:That's basically how I'll be approaching it. Another option is to craft a build that plays well with every alpha slot boost, and swap them in and out as the situation demands. I'm not sure how easy it will be to swap, though.Originally Posted by mauk2
This will make designing a build much more interesting. For optimum results, we will want to choose which of the alpha's we want to use first, and then tailor enhancements to maximize the gain-per-power, and then optimize for set bonuses.
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Quote:Figure out what the 89.9% is BEFORE ED. Add 22% to that. Then apply the appropriate ED calculation:Originally Posted by Santorican
Okay so how exactly do I add this recharge bonus to my powers? In Midnight Grasp I currently have 89.9% recharge enhanced. Do I add the 11% that ignore ED directly to that 89.9% and then add the ED portion of recharge to the power? If that is the case how do I calculate what that 22% recharge will turn into once ED takes effect?
At the end, add 11%.Code:Before ED After ED E < 70% E 70% ≤ E < 90% 70 + (0.9 × (E - 70)) 90% ≤ E < 100% 88 + (0.7 × (E - 90)) 100% ≤ E 95 + (0.15 × (E - 100))
So your 89.9% I assume is the Hecatomb set, which pre-ED is 92.75%. Add 22% for 114.75%. Apply the ED formula, so 95 + (0.15 * (114.75% - 100)) = 97.2125%. Add 11%, so 108.2125% recharge enhancement. -
Quote:Assuming you can swap them fairly easily, that's certainly one viable strategy.Originally Posted by Desmodos
Ultimately, I think folks are placing too much emphasis on which Alpha Slot boost is best. It won't be long before you have all of them. Once you have all of them, they you'll simply swap in the most advantageous enhancement for the scenario you are facing.
Personally, I'll probably be building around a specific alpha slot boost. For instance, if I take recharge, I may intentionally short change my recharge a little on some powers to get better use out of the portion of the bost affected by ED. I may choose an attack chain that requires the extra recharge, and choose not to have or slot any filler attacks to conserve slots and power picks. If someone has built around a particular alpha boost in this way, switching to another alpha boost may not be a viable option. -
Quote:Well, it's not 8-9, but here's Sergei's Monster Island Vacation where my Scrapper tanks 3-4 giant monsters. This is with an I13 build, so he'd only be better today if I brought him up to date. I'm estimating a 75% survivability improvement once he's brought up to full Alpha slot specs. Now as a Super Reflexes Scrapper, he's very subject to unlucky streaks, so I don't expect him to be tanking 5-6 giant monsters comfortably when he's done. Maybe 4. But something like a top end Dark Melee/Invulnerability Scrapper at full alpha slot specs with a survivability build would probably laugh at Monster Island, and probably easily do 8-9. And that's a Scrapper, not a Tank. A strong Tank should blow past that easily.Originally Posted by DSorrow
Now that you've said that, I'm sure one of the Scrapper aficionados will do that just to prove you wrong
And yes, I experienced the 50% HO days. It was a Blaster, so I can't speak for survivability, but I was almost entirely Hamio'd out. The damage output WAS kind of insane, and would probably be difficult to impossible to duplicate with even an Alpha Slot Blaster. On the other hand, maybe if I was a Blaster expert, I'd be questioning that assertion just like I'm questioning the survivability assertion.
My very rough impression is that we're already close or as good, and will be as good or better than 50% Hamio'd out characters once we get the Alpha Slot. Big guess, though. -
If 1/6 ignores ED, then 1/6 is just like a set bonus. The other 5/6 will be treated as if you'd put that much more enhancement in the power. So, given the ED calculations here:
http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Enhancement_Diversification
1) ED(62.69 + 5/6 * 33) + 1/6 * 33 = ED(90.19) + 5.5 = 88 + (0.7 * (90.19 - 90)) + 5.5 = 93.633
2) ED(105.71 + 5/6 * 33) + 1/6 * 33 = ED(133.21) + 5.5 = 95 + (0.15 * (133.21 - 100)) + 5.5 = 105.4815
3) ED(81.04 + 5/6 * 33) + 1/6 * 33 = ED(108.54) + 5.5 = 95 + (0.15 * (108.54 - 100)) + 5.5 = 101.781
3b) 101.781 + 4 * 7.5 = 131.781
Now, I don't have a dev sitting over my shoulder and haven't checked in game, so I could be wrong, but if so, I'd be kind of shocked and confused. -
Quote:Very good point. Also, the builds getting those top numbers were probably near perma Hasten and perma Soul Drain. But it's still a high DPS combo in more down to earth circumstances.Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
With the caveat of saturated soul drain fueling that damage boost.
Sayin that dm/shields is top tier in damage is true IF u have mobs to fuel SD, but eventually you'll kill your own fodder.
And when facing 1 hard target w/o fodder for SD it falls considerably in the dps race. -
Quote:Neither is strictly better. The game is six and a half years old, and the sets have long since been well balanced against each other overall. All combinations are good. There are no duds. There are no clear stand outs. It's down to different strengths and weaknesses that play out differently in different aspects of the game. So it all depends on what you personally enjoy.Originally Posted by Prancing_Pony
so which one would be better?
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Quote:Dark Melee/Shield Defense is top tier damage - as long as you're only attacking a single hard target. I suspect Martial Arts/Shield Defense would be the better option for just cranking through regular missions, though.Originally Posted by Prancing_Pony
which one would do the most damage overall?
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Both are mostly single target, so neither is particularly good for all round PvE. I'm partial to Dark Melee for the heal and utility myself, but Martial Arts at least has better AoE.
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With the I19 and I20 changes (so all the way to the very rare alpha slot enhancement), and some basic thoughts about how I will modify builds:
Code:Granted, some of the huge survivability increases are because Werner and Sergei have issue 12 and issue 13 builds that really need to be brought up to date. But a lot of it will be leveraging the issue 19 changes. I'm also not sure that either of them will compete with Alexei for survivability even after the changes, but maybe. I'm also happy to see that between four different Scrappers, I'm in three different trees, and that I'll probably even take the radial branch in one of them instead of core. Diversity is good.Toon Combo Alpha Slot Result once toon is completely rebuilt Werner Katana/Regen Spiritual Core Huge survivability increase Sergei Dark/SR Spiritual Core Huge survivability increase, small damage decrease Alexei Katana/Dark Cardiac Radial Moderate survivability increase Turiel Fire/Shield Muscular Core Small damage increase
I'll be waiting to see how this all plays out in practice, of course, and having a good idea what I'll be able to do with builds isn't the same as actually figuring out how to do it, much less actually doing it. Still, it looks like it could be fun. Choosing one of my four to focus on from the start, though, that's tough! They're all so good! -
Quote:Yeah, I meant to include something like, "But you're right that it will depend on primary/secondary and build", and then suddenly I had to run out the door, so I just hit send and ran out the door.Originally Posted by Desmodos
I can see that on some power sets. Other power sets have made sacrifices or were forced into a specific Epic in order to achieve that sustainability. Cardiac is potentially as good if not superior to some of those choices. This would free up builds to focus more on other areas, such as recharge or defense.
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Quote:There's not much point to endurance once you're sustainable, and We can already build for sustainable endurance. But damage, and recharge depending on what you're after, don't have a limit like that.Originally Posted by Desmodos
I'd love to see explanations as to why? Seems like Cardiac would be equally if not more popular. I think it will all come down to primary/secondary and IO build.
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I'm not sure how it gives better management of the interrupts. Build Up is slightly slower than Scorch, so that's a nice swap. Build Up is slightly faster than Fire Sword, which would be a tiny DPS hit if you don't have enough recharge for the swap, possibly leading to wanting to insert Build Up instead of swap out.
But if you have sufficient recharge, and maybe even if you don't, you swap out the lowest DPS attack, Fire Sword. If you just insert the Build Up, then you're spending more time at lower DPS than you need to. Won't make much difference, but it'll make some difference.
If you're inserting a much longer click, again, just replace your low DPS power. You're not trying to estimate when your other attacks will become available; you're just taking out the low DPS power. If it's a long click, the good attacks WILL be recharged when it's through.
You might go with an order other than best attack to worst attack if some other order made better use of Build Up. I don't know if any of these chains are in that category.
And while it wasn't a specific question, one advantage of Incinerate -> Cremate -> Fire Sword over Incinerate -> Cremate -> Greater Fire Sword is that it saves a power pick. That's probably less valuable in I19, but still valuable. No advantage over Incinerate -> Scorch -> Cremate -> Scorch in that regard, though. -
Quote:Incinerate->Cremate->Fire Sword with high-tier MusculatureOriginally Posted by Kyria_Shirako
Which does more damage, Incinerate->Cremate->FS with a high-tier Musculature, or taking a Spiritual to allow the use of Incinerate->Cremate->GFS?
I'm too lazy to look up the decimal points or to verify I'm handling Fire damage right, but I believe you're looking at 78 DPS vs. 81 DPS Mids' unslotted average with Arcanatime. High tier Musculature is +45% damage, 2/3 of that unaffected by ED, so figure over +30% damage. However, my rule of thumb is that high end Scrappers only get 1/3 of their damage from base. So my very rough estimate would be that it's a +10% DPS boost or better. So now you're looking at 86 DPS vs. 81 DPS. Well, much higher than that, obviously, but probably that much percentage difference or better.
There are often plenty of other reasons to take +recharge, and not other reasons for +damage, so that's not the same thing as saying you should take Musculature on a Fire Scrapper. It's all going to depend on the build. These are going to be similar questions to "which set should I slot in this attack?" It depends on the rest of your build and your build goals. -
I'm not a Kinetic Melee expert by any means, but if you just want to solo AVs, you don't need much accuracy. A Kismet unique and basic slotting of powers should be fine.
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Well, it's better DPS if you have an extra +59% recharge to throw at your build, but don't want to throw an extra +92% recharge at it for the top DPS chain. Call it the halfway between chain, I guess.
As for swapping out vs. inserting, and what you swap out, Fire Sword does enough lower DPS than the other two attacks that swapping is likely the better choice in that chain. The same is probably true of Scorch, which has even lower DPS. Haven't run any math to prove it in either case, though. Not sure what you mean by estimating timing. You see it's now recharged, so the next time you would have hit Fire Sword, hit Build Up instead. Or a heal. Or whatever you need to hit. -
Quote:Dangnabbit, I swore I loaded the top end Fire/Shield up for a look and it wasn't soft capped. Haven't actually READ the thread since it started. Oh, look, I'm completely retarded. Don't mind me! Nothing to see here! Move along!Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
With the advent of the imminent Blessing of the Zephyr Changes in issue 17, interest in building (or more likely respec'ing) an electric/shield and fire/shield scrapper seems to be high. I thought I would save the forum regulars a little trouble and post eight scrapper builds ranging from relatively inexpensive to extremely expensive.
Other than the BOTZ nerf which Fury referenced on page 1, has there been something else I've missed that we should be considering? (Serious question, not trolling)
Yes, Fury's builds are good ones to reference then. Sorry!
(Edit: Maybe I'm just misremembering being concerned about DDR on the top end build. DDR isn't capped. Well, the good news is that with I19, it'll be easy to pick up Grant Cover. I'm not sure it will be capped at that point, but if not, it'll be a lot closer. And Grant Cover can mule the Gladiator's Armor, freeing up a slot.) -
Quote:I'd say the main issue with that thread is that it was from before the IO nerfing, if I recall. Particularly relevant is Blessing of the Zephyr. So you'll probably find that those builds are no longer soft capped. So they'll take some tweaking, but probably still make a very good starting point.Originally Posted by Lord_Drache
There are many FM/SD builds floating around the forum. Here's one particularly in depth thread by Fury. All the builds are pretty good and even if they don't fit for what you're looking for they will give you an excellent starting point for your budget.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=216944 -
I'm going to guess the 72.5% global recharge 35% smashing/lethal defense build would be better.
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BunnyAnomaly (if you're still reading), in response to the question "What IO bonuses do you shoot for w/ Willpower?" in another thread, you said:
Quote:I assume you're not saying that regeneration is always useless, but rather that an additional 1 HP/S amounts to very little because you already have so much?Originally Posted by BunnyAnomaly
Regen bonuses amount to very, very little. On my WP/ tank she gets barely 1hp/s off a set bonus for regen, and when she has 100hp/s base with just a single enemy, why would you build for more?
So if you regenerate 99 HP/S, adding 1 HP/S to get 100 HP/S amounts to very little. While if you only regenerate 10 HP/S, adding 1 HP/S to get 11 HP/S is more valuable. The value of regenerating another 1 HP/S of damage depends on how much you already regenerate.
And if you are taking 100 HP/S of damage at 0% defense, adding 0.5% defense to lower that to 99 HP/S amounts to very little. If you are at 44.5% defense, you are taking 11 HP/S of damage, and adding 0.5% defense to lower that to 10 HP/S is more valuable. The value of preventing another 1 HP/S of damage depends on how much you already prevent.
Can you see the equivalence of these two points? The first is how I understood the one you made in the other thread. The second is the one I made in this thread, which you referred to as misleading and intellectually dishonest.
And as a similar line of reasoning that may be more clear and concise than any I have used so far: If you are taking 100 DPS at 0% defense, adding 0.5% defense lowers that to 99 DPS. If you are taking 100 DPS at 44.5% defense, adding 0.5% defense lowers that to 91 DPS. Preventing 9 DPS is more valuable than preventing 1 DPS. -
Fire Melee isn't going to have that satisfying crunch, though. I think Broad Sword wins for that.
I feel like Super Strength has a similar level of smash. Maybe a high fury Brute with Knockout Blow? That's just single target, though.
Broad Sword/Shield Defense for king of the crunch. -
I'd go with Fire, personally, but either is a damage powerhouse.
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I think Fire has the best balance, at least by late in the game. Dark Melee is way to single-target for general PvE, unless you just like that sort of play style (I do). Electric is probably too far into the AoE department - works great, but then you hit the single hard target and it bogs down a little. Nothing unplayable, though. So Fire, then Electric I'd say, but it depends on your damage-dealing priorities.
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Quote:Fortunately, that feels like one of the few ranged or AoE smashing attacks. I haven't tried it personally, but I think I'd feel fairly safe with a ranged/AOE smashing hole if I went the typed defense route, allowing me to focus on fire, cold, energy and negative defense primarily. Not sure how well it works in practice, though.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yep. Many faces were smashed by hurled boulders to bring us this information.
