Wavicle
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Posts
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It's all moot anyway.
You CAN pull him. Nothing is preventing you from pulling him.
It doesn't separate him from his clones.
Is it removing player options that most mobs outrange us so we can't hover snipe them in safety?
Is it removing player options that there isn't lava sitting around EVERY EB for us to drag him into?
Not every encounter is exactly the same.
This one has clones with a regen buff that is not blocked by LoS and has either unlimited or very long range.
If that had been the case right from the beginning then you would have no argument that "options are being removed". Would you still be complaining about the encounter? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Ever think they may not HAVE dwarf form? Y'know, one of the OPTIONS of playing a Kheld is to take or not take the forms. Amazingly enough.
L2P yourself.
If he is fighting a mezzing boss and didn't take dwarf and can't hold the boss and didn't use BFs then he needs to L2P. It's as simple as that.
Next your going to tell me that taking Unyielding is merely an option for an Invuln scrapper and that an encounter that can't be defeated by an Invuln scrapper who lacks UY is too hard or that the player didn't do anything wrong.
Yea, taking Dwarf is an option, but if you don't exercise that option then DON'T COMPLAIN WHEN YOU DIE DUE TO GETTING HELD. -
Quote:No, you are misreading.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Yep, yet somehow he wants to paint it as getting it after one game even after that argument.
The Trapdoor fight is ONE of the things you must do to get the Alpha Slot.
The Alpha Slot is one of the rewards for completing the arc that makes you fight Trapdoor.
Therefore the Alpha Slot is among the POTENTIAL rewards for defeating Trapdoor.
Arguing against that is just silly. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Then I'll point out that you're a fool.
Excuse me?
You mean me, who's fought him with non-IO'd-out characters, EVERY AT? Show me where I said it was "too hard." Go ahead. Dig up that quote. Dig HARD. You wont' find it, because I never stated that.
Listen VERY closely.
I DISAGREE VEHEMENTLY WITH REMOVING WHAT HAS BEEN A VALID OPTION THAT PLAYS TO SOME CHARACTERS STRENGTHS. You know, just like high defense, high damage, or holds. Do you get it now, or do you need it pounded into that cement block of a skull of yours even more?
You gripe at BI for putting words in other peoples mouths. Don't do it yourself, or just ask to change your handle to "Hypocrite."
As for changing the encounter? Yes. It's a puzzle. "What's making him regen, and what can I do to defeat that?" We had multiple options before. We have one LESS option now.
FEWER options for dealing with an encounter is a BAD THING.
Simple enough for you?
And yet one of the solutions FOR said puzzle ("What can I do to defeat his regen?") is being taken away, and you call it a good thing. Do you even listen to yourself?
I'm not going to respond to your bs ad hominem attacks.
IN THE DEVS OPINION, pulling him away from the regen makes it too easy. That's all that matters.
They are happy with you holding him. They are happy with everything but pulling him away from his clones.
Your histrionics are all moot.
Did you whine like this about the STF too? -
Quote:EVERYTHING ELSE has ways of preventing the mez or did you just not read even the last page of the thread?Originally Posted by Savos
So is everything else!
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Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Wow. You even argue with yourself.
What did Glen there say - "You do not get the alpha slot for completing that mission." It's a very straightforward statement, but I'll break it down for you:
You - the player.
Do not - a negative state
Get - to be rewarded
The alpha slot - the reward
For completing that mission - note it's not "the arc," but THAT MISSION, indicating a singular encounter. Namely, the fight to and with Trapdoor.
The opposite of that would be "You DO get the alpha slot for completing that mission," which means at the end of THAT MISSION, you are awarded it. You defeat trapdoor, get yellow text saying "Alpha Slot Unlocked."
Do you get that? No.
Therefore, you do NOT get the alpha slot for completing that mission, any more than you get it for talking to Statesman/Recluse, Lady Grey, defeating Holz or the Honoree. You get it for completing the arc, of which the Trapdoor fight is an *early part.* You could *conceivably* say you get it for defeating the Echo of Minos, as once you do, you can pass to the next room where you click the glowie and are awarded with it.
You get the alpha slot for finishing ALL of the missions. Not for finishing Trapdoor. You get Inf for finishing Trapdoor. You may get Prestige. You may get a recipe, enhancement, salvage or merit drop for doing so. You do NOT get the Alpha slot.
This argument is retarded.
ONE of the things you have to do to get the alpha slot is defeat Trapdoor.
In fact that's actually the ONLY thing you have to do since the rest of the arc can be autocompleted.
The Giants won the World Series. Was their ring awarded to them for winning the final game of the series? NO, it was awarded for having won FOUR games. ALL FOUR are part of the victory, AND the ring is a reward for ALL OF IT.
The Alpha Slot is rewarded for having done or skipped several missions AND defeating Trapdoor.
You people are not stupid enough to misunderstand this. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Tin_Soldier
Perhaps this sentence will lend some insight:
Especially when your toggles just dropped.
Dwarf form? Break frees? Seriously, you went into melee against someone with Energy melee attacks and you didn't use BFs or Dwarf?
This is why arguments like this devolve to L2P. Because you need to. -
Quote:Yes, that is exactly the argument that I am making.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
So, that ranged blast they use to do so isn't part of the character, or the maneuverability (also used for things like not getting into melee if that would be bad for you) isn't?
Again, you're making the argument that *using a power and moving while still being at risk of ranged and melee attack* is "too easy," while *using a power which puts you under no risk of attack at all* is not.
That is the argument the devs have set up. The characters that get powerful Holds get that level of protection as return for having sacrificed greater damage, greater hit points, etc, etc. The character with ranged damage but no Holds is not SUPPOSED to be able to attack with that much impunity.
What you are arguing against here is the whole AT design in the first place.
SOME toons get to fight Held enemies who can't attack them back. Not all toons. That is no different in this encounter than in any other.
What YOUR problem is is that you keep insisting on looking at this fight as the same as any other end boss in any solo mission.
Think of him more like a soloable version of Recluse from the end of the STF.
Really the problem here is that most of the game is SO EASY and STRAIGHTFORWARD that when the devs FINALLY give us some content that makes you have to change your approach based on the encounter at hand people like you and BI start losing your minds and complaining that it's too hard.
If we had been having to figure our way through puzzles and challenges for many levels this wouldn't be an issue. -
Quote:Yes. You do.Originally Posted by Gaming_Glen
No. You do not get the Alpha slot as a reward for that mission.
EITHER it is one of several missions all of which must be completed to get the Alpha Slot (therefore the Alpha Slot is one of the rewards for completing that mission)
OR
you AUTO COMPLETE ALL OF THE OTHERS meaning you do THAT mission and NO other and get the Alpha Slot.
So YES, they DO IN FACT reward you with the Alpha Slot for completing that mission. -
Quote:Sorry you have such a feeble grasp of the way the game works.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I hate to be seen as supporting B_I in any way, but they HAVE - in the cases of many of the powers above - indicated a sense of either the power being "too good" (Shivans - really, any risk these days in PVP zones, which was supposed to be their "balance?") or outright banning them from other encounters (Warburg nukes.)
It's *not* that big a stretch to see they may decide to neuter those in this and other encounters, either. If a *pull* - a standard tactic - is "bad" because, in your own words, "it makes the fight too easy," then yes, I *would* see it as perfectly reasonable to assume Shivans (don't take long to get, don't really have to fight anything but turrets) would get banned from this, and that Trappy would get EB/AV level hold resistance (as mentioned earlier) as that makes it even LESS of a fight than pulling. And, frankly, that either he'd get some fire resistance, or the lava would be "cooled off."
I mean, really, it's been said a pull is bad because it makes the fight too easy, but holds are perfectly fine. Let's compare the two:
+ = Good for player
- = Bad for player
PULLING:
+ Removes him from the source of his regeneration
- Lets him fight back at full damage and full strength
- Lets him maintain maneuverability.
HOLDING:
+Doesn't let him bifurcate, removing any chance of regen
+Doesn't let him fight back
+Doesn't let him move.
So - given several *common NPCs* have higher hold protection than trappy here, why aren't you campaigning for a tactic which is JUST as fair of a use of powers, which makes the fight even EASIER, to get yanked by giving him insane hold protection? It's not even like he'd be the only extremely-hard-to-hold AV (or for that matter incarnate) in the arc, as Honoree shrugged off most holds I tried stacking at him.
Sorry, but your "It makes the fight too easy" argument just doesn't hold water.
Holds are a TOONS POWER.
Pulling is not.
See the difference?
They are HAPPY to have you either Hold him (if your toon is capable of that) or bring a friend who can do so.
What they are Not happy with is for you to gain even ONE of the advantages of holding him without actually having done so.
Again, seems pretty clear to me. -
Quote:Where was your Damage Resistance?Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Wasn't it your side of the argument that called it an "exploit" in the first place?
Why didn't you call it an "oversight correction" instead of an "exploit", if that's what you really thought it was to begin with?
I agree that the Devs probably overlooked the Bifurcation issue, much like they over looked massive team rezzing from an Oil Slick Arrow. Probably not enough to get a "WTf?" from the powers guys though. However, I think they could have fixed the issue in other, less hand-slapping, ways.
My Warshade got 1-shotted through about 60% defense. (several Purple pills eaten)
Yes, they do get lucky and roll under 5% at times. (or is that 10% for EBs)
And his hits hurt a LOT. Especially when your toggles just dropped.
Fortunately, I had done just enough damage to him that the Warshade's Rez power defeated him.
Yes, I defeated Trapdoor with a Rez.
I can't conceive of my Warshade being 1 shotted by anything with Energy melee. -
Quote:Killing the clones is still totally an option. Pulling or knocking him into the lava also helps.Originally Posted by ShadowsBetween
The only way I got past Trapdoor was to pull him away from the clones, or focus on killing the clones until they stopped and then finishing Trapdoor. Since neither is apparently an option now, it appears I'll be stopping with just the two Incarnates.
This is seriously one of the EASIEST EB fights in the game to solo.
People complaining about are DOING IT WRONG.
That is not petulance, it's a fact. -
Quote:Apex and Tin Mage don't have anything to do with Incarnates either. Plus, we're just going to be repeating them.Originally Posted by Mirai
Hmm. So you're saying that once I get my slot filled I should just repeat the same level 50 missions I've done before, but at a higher difficulty to simulate Incarnate content, even though none of that conent has anything to do with Incarnates? I don't know... I think I'd be better off making my own Incarnate arcs in the Mission Architect. I could even just ignore the canon and make up my own versions of what being an Incarnate means. Something to think about, I suppose. It will be a long time before I fill the slot on one of my characters, so I'll have plenty of time to plan some stories. It might not work too well, though, because I can't get more shards from the AE to upgrade my Alpha buffs.
Your complaint makes no sense.
So far, ONLY the Ramiel Arc (and the Origin of Power arc) have anything at all to do with Incarnates. Both of these are soloable.
My point is, there really is no such thing as "Incarnate content".
The only sense in which Apex and Tin Mage are "Incarnate content" is that they are harder than most other content and require the unlock of the Alpha slot to participate in.
We are going to repeat them over and over.
You seem to be saying you want new level 50 soloable story arcs that drops shards FASTER than teaming content so that you can attain shards closer to the speed with which a teaming toon does. You want these arcs to be somewhat harder than standard arcs and you want to have to have done Ramiel's arc to unlock them.
Well, give it up. They are never going to let you earn team rewards solo at anywhere close to the same speed. And why should they?
They may add more 45-50 arc content. However I seriously doubt they will force you to have an Alpha slot to do it. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
If pulling Trapdoor away from his minions is bad, then *all* pulling of bosses away from their minions is bad, its an "exploit" and needs to be stopped ASAP!
I hope you can see how extremely silly such a supposition is.
Yes I see quite well that it is a Completely ridiculous supposition.
SO WHY DO YOU INSIST ON MAKING IT?
Trapdoor is NOT the same as All other bosses in the game. The Ramiel arc is an introduction to the end game content that began its release in this issue. A main feature of that content is going to be end boss encounters with Encounter Specific Mechanics.
YOU and others in this thread who share your opinion are insisting that Trapdoor must be treated Just like all other bosses in the game. The devs, through their design and subsequent actions, have shown that they see this as a different kind of encounter.
Stop whining and eat some damn inspirations already. -
Quote:No. YOU are MAKING UP the slippery slope.Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
The problem is that killing the bifurcations means that he INSTANTLY respawns them, and they seem to respawn faster the faster you kill them.
Thank you God that you are not on the development team. They're bad enough, we don't need your mindset infiltrating them.
If tactics that involve the use of tools equals "exploit," I expect to see the following things removed from the game ASAP:
*all inspirations
*all snipe tools, including the Blackwand and Nemesis Staff
*shivans
*nukes
*Vanguard HVAS
*PvP zone heavies
*...and really, enhancements.
At the bottom of your slippery slope is the notion that ANYthing that helps you win a fight is a cheat, and therefore an exploit. Good luck with that line of reasoning.
The devs, through their actions, have indicated that they believe pulling him away from his clones makes the fight too easy.
There is NOTHING else they have indicated they feel that way about. (EDIT: My bad, there is one precedent. Recluse in the STF had almost the exact same change made.)
Quit putting words in people's mouths. -
Quote:Yes. With a Shivan. Which is also attainable solo. Just yes.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Aha, No.
Because soloing an Empath/Psi Defender, while Im sure is possible for those with way too much time, inf and build prowess, is NOT a doable thing for every poor average joe who also happens to like the power combination while running with a team/friends/both.
So, no. Just no. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Rosen_ice
Soloing used to be an option, simply less efficient and isolated to special things...
Even if you were super strong, your missions wouldn't spawn a huge mass for you to run through alone... you HAD to be in a group to get big spawns (or street sweep).
That, and people simply became so much stronger. Anyone can get soft capped defenses now, or HUGE enhanced damage through IO procs.
And the way missions are set up. In order to go through an arc... the game pretty much forces you to solo. If you join a group an they are 1 mission ahead of you on the arc, well, too bad for you.
In praetoria, it is either do the storyline alone... OR play in a group. Even keep running into key points which FORCE you to leave whatever group you are in!
Then, out in the big world... the chance that a group you find will have the same contact as you and actually be on the same stage is nill.
The only thing that players can work towards together are the farmable things like tips or newspaper missions :P
Yea, i think a re-thinking of the quest system would be a big step towards helping out grouping.
This is an interesting post that raises some issues not much dealt with. Kudos! -
Quote:But you DID have an Amy and a Shivan, ergo 7 players could and did take down the Honoree.Originally Posted by Flarstux
LGTF earlier today, 7 players could not take down the Honoree. If we hadn't had an Amy and a Shivan we'd still be in there.
Yes. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Mirai
(Now if the devs were to add soloable Incarnate content along with the TFs, the Incarnate system might mean more to me, and I'd be more motivated to fight those EBs.)
The devs have already added soloable incarnate content.
Do ANY level 50 content with the difficulty at +4. BINGO, solo incarnate content.
Make it Maria's arc if you need it to be Praetoria related.
They've EVEN gone so far as to allow you to get shard drops from nearly all 50+ enemies. So not only is there soloable incarnate content, but you also don't have to team to fill your alpha slot. -
I looked up orthogonal and found many meanings but couldn't figure out just what you meant by it here, Arcanaville. Would you mind clarifying your use of that term?
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Quote:Originally Posted by _Zep_
So sad. Q-FLight used to be awesome.
A perfect little 'get out of being dead' power.
I was OK with the long recharge. I was OK with the increasing end cost.
The brown and smelly stuff is hitting the wall, hit Q-Flight and run.
Have to cut across talos or IP to get somewhere... hit conserve power - q-flight and go at max fly speed.
Now you're at max fly speed just from regular fly.
There's no increasing cost. You can't use it quite as Long, but you can still use it for all the purposes you used to, with less end cost. You don't need to use CP, and you don't need to use it for travel.
Seems like they buffed it from my perspective. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
In that case, they should patch so he can't jump in the lava. That's taking advantage of the situation (that environment) to one's benefit.
Hell, if you want to use *that* loose of a definition, they need to get rid of blaster nukes. Spawn that stays close together? The nuke would take advantage of that situation for the blaster's own benefit. Or the opportunity to pick and drop missions. Group you don't do well against so you pick another? By that loose definition, THAT's an exploit.
How far do you want to go with that definition? Or would you prefer to use the one the devs gave us a while back - excessive reward for the risk involved? (Something that is *not* the case with Trapdoor.)
(Of course, strictly speaking you're using the verb definition - to exploit something - as opposed to *an exploit,* which is what the devs defined.)
it's not "strictly speaking", that's the Whole Point. and you missed it.
He's making a Distinction between exploiting an advantage and "using an exploit".
Pulling him away from his clones is an exploit.
Pulling him into the lava is not.
According to the devs, inferred based on their approach to the situation.
Seems pretty clear to me.
It IS too much reward for too little risk. You're being rewarded with the ALPHA SLOT. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Smurch
Yet, there's a bunch of people saying it's hard for them. So... either it is hard for them, or they're lying.
There is a third option: They're doing it wrong.
That is not me being elitist or any other bs excuse you're going to come up with. I am not saying it necessarily IS the case, but it is a third option that you don't mention above.
So yeah, either it is hard for them, or they're lying, OR they haven't figured out how to do the encounter properly.
Kill the clones, kill Trapdoor. The only way this encounter should be hard is if your toon doesn't do enough damage to kill an EB. In that case, go get a Shivan if you so desperately need to do it without another player. -
Quote:It shouldn't be stupid hard for ANYONE.Originally Posted by Smurch
You know, it took me less than 5 minutes to defeat that encounter. Anyone who had to do a pull would probably take considerably longer without the pull, if they could even do it.
So WHY is it a problem if those people circumvent the primary encounter mechanic? It just turns the game from "5 minutes of fun" to "25 minutes of suck" for a large number of people. Why is this good for the game? Unless there was some kind of metric to scale the encounter based on AT and Powerset to ensure a level playing field, it's still going to be stupid-easy for some people and stupid-hard for others. All this change will do is frustrate people.
Anyone finding this encounter stupid hard is DOING IT WRONG.
Why even DESIGN fights with new mechanics if people are just going to cheat their way around it? -
Quote:Because the Devs don't want you to be able to circumvent the primary encounter mechanic?Originally Posted by Smurch
I did this on my SS/Invuln Brute on +4/x2 and mopped the floor with him once I saw all I had to do was kill his clones. I just rounded them up about 2-3 of them at a time and plowed through them, then engaged him immediately after I got the last clone down. He dropped quickly after that.
HOWEVER, I don't see why it's a problem if people figure out a good tactic to use to avoid having to fight the clones. I don't see what the difference is. If you WANT it to be harder, then Pro Tip: DON'T USE THOSE TACTICS. Do it as a stand up fight if you prefer.
I really don't see why this needs to be fixed.