Wavicle

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Im wondering why in gravity do they put lift that does good knockup and now good damage in pvp, but give you a hold that provides the target 10000% KB and KU protection and 100 mag KB and KU protection.

So you cant throw a hold on someone, say a regen, that is running a toggle with KB and KU protection to surpress that toggle cause your just giving them more protection.

What a poorly designed set IMO.

/endrant

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If they're Held why do you care if they get KU anyway? They still take the damage...extra damage if your a controller.

If it's a Boss and you're gonna have to Hold him twice, and you want him on his butt while you do it, try hitting Lift first.

Fail thread full of fail opinions is fail.

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Meanwhile Mind has FOUR AoE mezzes.

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Correction. Five. Five AoE Mezzes.

Mass Hypnosis.
Telekinesis.
Total Domination.
Terrify.
Mass Confusion.

Five AoE Mezzes. Ah-hah-hah-hah! *Thunderclap*

/TheCount

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Yea, I didn't mention TK because I didn't want to push it too far. TK definitely isn't usable for the same purposes as those other mezzes. It is enormously useful however, for being autohit, for being a toggle, and for having a repel effect.

I'm gonna state this again, in clearer terms.


If you are using how much Damage is done by Fire Control as your baseline for what a control set should be capable of, you are misunderstanding the purpose of Controllers on teams.

If you think that Mind Control is Weak at *controlling* things, then you really just haven't examined what the powers in the set are actually capable of, or you are ignoring some aspect of those powers.

If you think that Fire is better at *control* than Mind, you again have some critical misunderstanding of what Mind is capable of.



Just what is Fire gonna do when a second group shows up and you've already used Flashfires and Cinders (if you even took Cinders)?

Meanwhile Mind has FOUR AoE mezzes. To argue that the sleep and fear are somehow weak, when compared directly to Flashfires (itself out of context), out of the context of the set as a whole, just strikes me as silly.

Maybe these arguments are true IN THE FARM MISSIONS WHERE FIRE/KINS SHINE SO WELL. Go try some REAL missions and come back and tell me how great Fire is at controlling mobs.

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As a control set, mind cant compete with fire.

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Credibility, meet out the window.



As a CONTROL set FIRE can't compete with MIND.

As a DAMAGE set FIRE pulls way ahead, obviously.

You're foolish in the extreme if you think that Non aggro mezzes are worthless.

You're also foolish in the extreme if you think a CONTROL set is Underperforming because it doesn't do as much DAMAGE as another CONTROL set.

Foolish.

In the extreme.



FIRE is OVERPERFORMING, if anything.

Please don't continue to participate in this discussion of Mind Control, since you clearly have a flea's (not Bionic Flea's) understanding of the set.

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The thing about academia is that you can find evidence to support and theory you feel like purporting.

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It's funny you should mention that. He happened to write a paper with the Orwellian premise that Bad is Good., that cheating, exploits, and griefing is equivalent to good, proper, and socially acceptable play.

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So not only are his conclusions obvious, they're also erroneous.

Maybe look for a day job, prof.

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Stone Armor for Tanks: Survivability is thrown around like confetti hero side, and Stoners basically take crippling buff in exchange guaranteed survivability. Considering how frequently the extra survivability is overkill, I feel sorry for the non-irl stoners.

Mind Control: The lack of an AoE immobolize/stun means it's pain to set domination for AoE attacks. Furthermore when purple out your mind troll, you can stop groups every minute with Total Domination and Mass Confusion. Fire Control on the other hand can stop groups nearly as well with Flashfire and cages about every 45 seconds using just SO's. Mind Control really just seems to suffer in the post-io world.

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Mass Hypnosis Hello??

L2P your Mind Controller/Dominator.

What does the Fire Controller use to AoE mez WITHOUT DRAWING AGGRO???

Oh, that's right, HE CAN'T, ONLY MIND CAN DO THAT.

What IOs are you gonna slot to make Flashfire not alert the mobs?

What IOs are you gonna slot to mez Hold resistant mobs?

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But Mind Control -has- a pet, at level 6, called Confuse. Lasts a long time, doesn't agro, and has uses other than being a pet.

Mind Control is -seriously- fine. It is probably one of the better control sets and doesn't have to wait until level 32 to get playable. Asking it to have a pet means lengthening the recharge times on their holds, or lowering their duration, or killing their accuracy, or their damage. Frankly, no serious Mind Controller wants to exchange -any- of their powers for that.

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Word. Don't change Mind Control AT ALL unless you want to RAISE the accuracy on the AoEs. :P

Actually, as I recall SS numbers are across the board almost identical to similar powers in the other tanker melee sets. Having Rage instead of BU makes SS do BETTER damage than the other sets.

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For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this).

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Gauntlet.





Your other observations are riddled with misunderstandings. Pain Dom isnt as good as Empathy at some thing because the ATs that get Pain Dom are different from the ATs that get Empathy. All the direct comparisons you've made suffer from this. Bane doesn't do as much damage as X, but has other advantages. For example, Widows single target, single attack burst damage is nothing compared to a bane's Executioner's Strike. Some folks say DPS is king. I say that's a very limited view. Not all missions are either AVs or hordes of exploitable hami mitos.

EDIT: (On an unrelated note, the idea of hordes of people with level 50 characters who have never fought anything with them but mitos that CANNOT ATTACK BACK is frightening to me.)

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Excuse me what? I made a comparison of Pain Domination and Thermal, both of which are shared by an AT. I should point out that Thermal and Empathy are shared by an AT as well and both are equally competitive. Thermal blows Pain out of the water with reliable resists from shields, reliable +damage from Forge, massive debuff in heat exhaustion, arguably the best rez in the game, and a targettable debuff that doesn't require a squishy corruptor to get into melee. Meh.

Also, you may want to check your math. Judging by real numbers in game, using Arachnos Soldier and Arachnos Widow as the ATs respectively, Slash does 2 ticks of 76.31 damage with a 101.75 crit. Shatter does 126.79 damage plus 84.53 smashing on a crit and 5 ticks of 4.17 damage. Basic rudimentary math would tell us that Slash (a Widow Skill) does a total of 254.37 damage while Shatter (i.e. Executioner Strike) does 232.17. Not only do widows do more damage, they animate faster in their attack (insignificant point). This is while running around and soft capping their team with mind link (or close enough) and being soft capped themselves.

Yes, DPS may be king but it's not exactly something banes shine in either, apparently.

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Your math is wrong. You forgot about Surveillance. I won't go into the other advantages the Bane has that that Widow can't match. Not to say that Banes are better than Widows, and I won't even argue that they are equal, but Banes are not as far behind as some might think.


Can the Thermal or the Emp Fort or Forge or Shield themselves? No, they can't.

Do either have a permanent regen buff (poor shat upon corrs)? No, they don't.

If you're going to compare the sets then look at EVERY aspect, not just those that are favorable to your argument.

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Wow, what an [censored].

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Think you could be a little more specific?

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For some reason, Swoop is also qualified as an aoe according to real numbers to boot (...I'm confused at this).

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Gauntlet.





Your other observations are riddled with misunderstandings. Pain Dom isnt as good as Empathy at some thing because the ATs that get Pain Dom are different from the ATs that get Empathy. All the direct comparisons you've made suffer from this. Bane doesn't do as much damage as X, but has other advantages. For example, Widows single target, single attack burst damage is nothing compared to a bane's Executioner's Strike. Some folks say DPS is king. I say that's a very limited view. Not all missions are either AVs or hordes of exploitable hami mitos.

EDIT: (On an unrelated note, the idea of hordes of people with level 50 characters who have never fought anything with them but mitos that CANNOT ATTACK BACK is frightening to me.)

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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?

However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.

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"That is not insignificant" <--- This is the opinion part of your argument. My opinion is that it is insignificant. We're both basing this opinion off the same math, which was the fact part.

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No. YOU said "it may as well not be there". I am saying THAT is factually incorrect. Whether it is significant or not IS a matter of opinion, but saying "it may as well not be there" suggests that 12% does Nothing for you, which is demonstrably false.

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Mind idea

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no... Doesn't matter what the idea is, nothing in mind should change... well... perhaps TK should have its end cut a little, but I know that's not your idea.

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Confuse, Mass Hypnosis, and Mass Confusion don't cause aggro. Please don't give Mind a Cat, I mean Pet, to herd.

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Here is a question I am sure has been asked a million times over, but I have been gone for a long time so I am not up to speed on the latest developments. Will the Blaster AT ever get the Dark Blast set as a primary?

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I'd say probably, but with the caveat that there's a strong possibility it might be altered in one or more ways.

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One of the most fun things to do with KOB (which I do on occasion when I'm bored and passing through low level zones) is to click on the Vanguard accolade power (if you have it) which amplifies all secondary effects (such as knock-up in this particular instance) and go hit some little lvl 5 guy with a KOB. The hang time is just spectacular.

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Power Boost effects (such as Power Boost, Power BuildUp, Benumb, Vanguard Medal, and others) no longer effect Knockback or Knockup.

I know, it makes me sad too. Tho probably not my teammates.

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<snipping the quoteamid>

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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.

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I'm going to entirely disagree with this comment with the same amount of factual evidence as you provided.

[/ QUOTE ]Ummm, all scrappers do have weaker defenses pre-22. There's a leap around 10-16 when they get the mez protection, and then at 22 when they (finally) get SOs. The only scrappers that aren't as weak pre-22 are BS and Katana primaries due to the godliness that is Parry/Divine Avalanche, /Regen, which gets Integration and DP, its main tools, pre-22, which, like most self-heals, are viable without slotting for the first few levels.

Dark Armor is staggering under a massive end deficit pre-SOs. Fiery is leaning entirely on HF there, and because of how their mez protection is split up, can't even pick and choose armors. Willpower doesn't get QR until 20, and its main tool for survival being a taunt aura can easily hurt more than it helps pre-SOs, when the other defenses, and itself, are operating below SO efficiency. Invuln's big tool isn't until 28, and it doesn't have SOs for Resists. SR is lacking AoE defense, and is only on DOs. Shields blooms earlier in terms of pure defense, but it still has issues with its other mitigation and Defense DOs only being +10%.


There's some actual facts. Scrappers (as well as Brutes, Tankers, and Stalkers) have issues pre-22.

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My comment was mostly in irritation that Dispari went through the trouble of detailing a well constructed argument and the reply it gets basically amounts to "Well, you're wrong. So there." That's so incredibly annoying when you're trying to have a debate about something.

Anyway, I generally feel defense in general suffers more at lower levels than anything else by the nature that it either works or it doesn't, and you need a lot of it to work well. Regen and Resistance does not. Even if it's only 12% resistance before you can get DO's and SO's, at least it's doing something, even if small. 12% defense, on the other hand, might as well not even be there when it's all you have to rely on.

Even as the powersets grow and start getting their notable powers, click heals, etc., /sr is still stacking on defenses it's whole life until it finally has them all, at which point you take a dramatic turn and become *very* good.


granted, this whole argument is very much opinion based, so your mileage may very.

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Defense IS less Dependable at the low levels. That is ENTIRELY by design. If you don't LIKE the design of Defense = Safety, Resistance = Dependability, then maybe you should play Res sets instead?

However, your argument that 12% defense might as well not be there? That is hyperbole and is NOT an opinion, it is simply factually incorrect. 12% Defense takes you from getting hit by half of attacks to getting hit by a third of attacks. That is not insignificant, but is not yet dependable on the scale of SO slotted powers. That is the design.

Dispari gave an argument and then followed it with "and SR just sucks at the low levels and I die all the time".

To which I responded that she doesn't know how to play.

Because: If you're dying all the time then you are doing something wrong.

That something wrong could be fighting guys that are too tough at that level, it could be failing to pull when there are multiple spawns, it could be skipping key powers, it could be anything. However, it comes back to it very clearly: if you are dying all the time you are doing something Wrong. There is NO set in the game that is so bad you will die all the time even while doing everything right.

My answer was NOT equal to "well you're wrong, so there" it was "if, as you say, you die all the time, then you are doing something wrong". Quite distinct.

You're being the PvE equivalent of a Care Bear: "if I'm having difficulty it MUST be the fault of the SET and not my own behavior."

You're as bad as he is.

"I played by the rules" is NOT a defense of antisocial behavior.

This is Not like State Rights. The players do Not have the right to do anything and everything that the rules don't specifically ban.

The community decides what is and isn't socially acceptable. The devs decide what is and isn't 'legally' acceptable.

Just because it's not explicitly forbidden does not mean it's completely acceptable.

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Extremely late reply to this, but this is where you contradict yourself. You first claimed that SR without IOs "underperforms", but then in this post you seem to admit that the set is "decent" with just SOs. So which is it?

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I had this huge post written up but if I keep arguing this, I'm just going to be recycling all the posts I've already made in this thread. I'm just saying the same thing every time someone replies to my posts. I'm not sure what part of the communication is breaking down, but at some point I'm not getting my point across.

Recap: All I'm complaining about is low-level SR that doesn't have IOs. If you're low level and have IOs, that can ease the pain. Low level SR without IOs is the least durable set there is. All sets have problems at low levels, but SR is the worst. Even Shield has +HP and +RES to fall back on. Other sets have +regen or heals. SR has nothing other than defense, which almost all low-level enemies debuff, and at low levels you have no DDR or scaling resist. SR is a late-bloomer, and that's why it has problems at low levels only, unless you patch it up with IOs.

High level SR + IOs = extreme
High level SR = decent
Low level SR + IOs = decent
Low level SR = terrible

It's just like Dominators were. If you can suffer through the first 35 levels or so, you get rewarded. But for some people, those early levels aren't any fun and not worth the effort.

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Nope, you just don't know how to play your SR. ALL scrappers have weak defense in the low levels.

Wait, you fight the mobs OUTSIDE in the pvp zones?

Well...I think that's a little crazy...

But...

Like I said before, I agree that RttC should be considered defensive for the purposes of toggle dropping.

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Given that [super reflexes] had a good reputation long before IOs, I really doubt they're 'necessary'.

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Very long ago. Perma-eldue-long-ago.

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Yeah, between the end of the Perma-Elude and the introduction of IOs, SR was generally considered a rather poor set.

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No, it was considered poor (rightfully so) between perma elude and the introduction of Defense scaling.

Since Defense was made to work equally well against mobs up to +5 SR has been quite excellent (in PvE), even befpre the introduction of IOs, adding scaling resistance to the passives was icing on the cake.

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Sonic Resonance is a lot like Force Fields (actually more like Cold). It's not as defensive as Force Fields (about as defensive as Cold, though), but it supposedly makes up for that with some offensive-boosting capabilities. It really doesn't completely make up for it, though.

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That is an opinion that I have to say I STRONGLY disagree with. The debuffing in Sonic MORE than makes up for what it lacks compared to FF.



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Electric Blast's problems lie solely in its secondary effect. The problem is that, most of the time, it does exactly nothing.

Returning a bit of endurance to the user is kinda useful, but it's neither reliable nor very effective. It's not enough to free the user from endurance worries to the point where they don't have to implement another solution (such as Stamina). So really, the endurance situation of Electric Blast is no different from that of any other blast set, and it, in fact, does pretty much nothing.

Draining endurance is a whole other can of worms. It's completely useless unless you have enough of it to utterly drain the foe you want to disable, and then you have to constantly apply a -recovery effect to them or else they'll just use endurance as they get it and, essentially, attack as normal.

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Electrics problem is NOT in its secondary effect. The problem is the lack of strong single target damage.

The numbers have shown that the end return effect is approximately equal to having an End Reducer in every attack with the effect. That means you can slot for other things instead, or if you slot for End you will be Even More efficient.

End drain IS useful even if you can't keep enemies at 0 permanently. If you keep them NEAR 0 they will only be able to slowly use their weakest powers. Pay more attention to how fast they attack and what attacks they use when you have an enemy hovering around 0-10 end.

Also, extra damage IS Fire Blast's secondary effect.



Almost every example in this thread of underperforming sets is followed by a playstyle example that demonstrates the poster doesn't know how to best leverage the abilities of the set in question.

You find people stand next to you powering your RttC a lot in PvP?