Vel_Overload

Now before anyone starts to flame me I'm posting an honest oppinion and feel its something we have to discuss.

First, Defenders are not Obsolete, yet. Once the new expansion "Going Rogue" comes out we, the defenders, will be in competition with not only Controllers anymore for groups that require support. We will also have to compete with Corruptors and to a lesser extent, Masterminds.

Defenders are the only archetype that has "Buff" as a primary power selection. But at what cost? Extremely low damage (0.6 multiplier), poor soloing skills and a broken Archetype-power? Lets face facts people. Controller and Corruptors can do everything we can do and then some. Sure, their "Buff" powers have a lower multiplier but their damage is much better. Also, the Controllers have the ability to Hold, Confuse, and down-right stop the enemy from attacking the team in general, all the while having that lovely containment bonus. Corruptors are not that much better in the damage department but its still enough for them to out perform us. Masterminds also have supportive skills. They have Force Fields, the unique "Poison" power set and even a Healing set. So thats another contender for the support roll.

Over-all we're being phased out. If you had to choose between a Kinetic Defender and say, a Kinetic Controller who would you honestly go with for soloing, or even as an extra teammate. Once "Going Rogue" is available Masterminds and Corruptors will also be a notch above us. Masterminds bring damage and have better survivability and Corruptors have scourge. What do we have? An endurance discount?

Our Archetype-power (Vigilance) is almost worthless. First, most players pick up stamina, which greatly reduces the chance our Endurance will hit zero. Second, many primary power sets do not need the endurance discount. Kinetics has Transference. Empathy has Recovery Aura. Cold Domination has Heat Loss. Radiation Emission has Accelerate Metabolism. Force Field rarely needs endurance to operate. This leave very few Primaries that may actually have the need for it.

Another problem with Vigilance is that it rewards bad Defenders. If a Defenders team is dieing then they get the discount. If a Defender is doing their job very well then they don't get a discount. You simply cannot reverse this either. A Good Defender, with a team not in a crisis, would not need a Discount in the first place. A Bad Defender probably isnt capable of handling a Crisis with the Discount anyway. This is simply a bad design and doesnt help us Defenders out in any way.

Power Proliferation is something I really love and like to see but it is actually hindering Defenders. Dark Miasma and Cold Domination thus far are the only two primaries that Defenders have a monopoly of as of Hero Side. Agian, once "Going Rogue" comes out that will fade away. Corruptors have both and Masterminds have Dark Miasma. This wouldn't be a problem but once agian theres nothing that makes a Defender any better at Using Dark Miasma, Cold Domination and every other Primary besides a barely noticeable multiplier. To put it simply, we will no longer have "An Ace up our Sleeve"

Lastly, With Invention Sets and Set Bonuses, this allows many characters to "Balance out" their character, such as adding extra defense or resistance to a blaster. These bonuses make characters alittle more durable and unneeding of a pure support role at times. These characters are not completely support-proof but they do show that it is possible to get away without the use of buffs. The bonuses don't truly substitute for a good Force Field or a Sonic Barrier, but they do reduce the ammount of support needed in a group. sometimes a single Empathy-using Controller is all it takes for a Tank and a team of Blasters to handle a tough Taskforce. This is a small problem but it is still a hinderence on the use of defenders.

I would just like to ask the Developers what their future plans for the Defender are. So far our Coffin is ready for us, as Corruptors, Masterminds and Controllers can do their secondary job better than we can do our primary at times. I really do not wish to shelf my Defender, but at this rate, I may have to. Please help us, we don't want to become worthless.

well its between you guys now. I don't like my idea anymore. too many changes on my part that keeps making it worse (as umbral and samual_tow point out) which isnt bad, just they showed me my flaws. Well, good luck guys

I do NOT have the attentio~ oo a penny, I lik~ ZOMG A SQUIRREL, hah he fel~ what were we talking about? aww screw it, I'ma go make a TA/Rad defender..

Yes, i see that my idea has only 4 actual attacks, a mez and a oh-sh~ button (thats what i call nukes). Hmm, Its strange because I'm using Ice Blast as a model because it some how pulls off the triple attack and no snipe idea thus is is close to what I'm thinking of when it comes to DP.

We could knockout the stun but now i just dont see it happening. Infact now that i think about it, 1 toggle may actually be enough. If that toggle completely changes the way Dual Pistols is played then it may work.
Playing theory-generator here for a second: Lets say without the Toggle on, DP is a full damage set, just like any other, go all out just to annihilate enemies. Now lets say that with the toggle on, it turns Dual Pistols into a different type of powerset. Stay with me: Once you turn the toggle on, you may get completely different effects on your attacks. such as the cone now does -movement speed, the high damage attack now has +X type damage, the weak attack has chance to proc "Blah" etc. Agian i think im stretching the system too far as to whether or not it can be done but I have faith that it can be done. so the powerset would look something like this:

Without Toggle On:
1. Weak Attack/ Short Recharge
2. Moderate Attack/ Moderate Recharge
3. Moderate Cone/ Moderately-Long Recharge
4. Aim
5. The Toggle
6. Mez Attack
7. High Damage/ Long Recharge
8. Strong Cone/ Long Recharge
9. Generic Tier 9
This is similar to yours Umbral if not the same, order can be changed easily, its the idea for now that counts.

Ok, when we turn the toggle on, certain things change and we get different effects:
--With Toggle On--
1. Same /w small AoE
2. Same /w defense debuff
3. Same /w Chance for knockdown/back
4. Aim instead gives +Defense and/or Resistance
5. Toggle
6. Same /w higher mag and longer duration
7. Higher Damage and Range, also increased recharge and endurance (thus becoming similar to a snipe)
8. Same /w Damage Debuff
9. Use your imagination

This would cause the DP set to almost be Two in 1. Of course all of the above effects are just theoretical and you could have any effect on any power really; which ever makes it balance with other sets without becoming too powerful I suppose. Also, While the toggle is on I believe a penalty would be needed, such as -20% damage or even more so that players have to make a choice on either full assault or a more technical approach. this would also get rid of the idea of an instant toggle. This pretty much forces a cast time or else people will switch in an out too fast to feel the penalty.

This would allow even a blaster to become more supportive on a team. Corruptor's would really enjoy it stacking with their own secondary. And defenders (power proliferation!) will like the idea of not having a crummy secondary. I wont go any further on this subject. I'll let others brainstorm on it. Personally, I like it much better than the original idea.

@James:
I dont think many people would enjoy the twitch-switch as im going to call it it sounds neater that way. Some people are... sluggish players, how long would the interval between switching targets?

I did take into account what you said about how powersets pretty much guide you to focusing on a single target at a time. Hopefully this new idea will help that problem out. As while the toggle is on you arent at full power (atleast in my model) thus you might want to pick targets that are attacking your teammates or mabye all of the minions to stun them, etc. This looks good on paper but I don't know how it would actually work. hmm

Thank you for not being one of those people who agree with you just because they want to be nice. It makes for good brainstorming.. gonna go make a storm/psi defender now.

O.O i want to lick the OP's tanker

"Spam" badge for receiving over 5,000 E-mails.. yeah, it would be as awesome as the "PWNZ" badge

and dual wield Archery for my stalker preeze?

Perma or double rage makes SS more powerful than Fire melee but it requires a ton of cash.

This is srsly not a Nemesis plot.... srsly

[Quote]Like I said - a choosable damage type is a powerful tool, but far too dependent on the enemy you're fighting.

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Thats why i'm turned off by the idea of a different damage type, also it wouldnt be a 100% conversion from lethal to fire (or cold, etc). it would be a damage increase by X% in Y damage type.

Ice Blast gets by perfectly fine without a snipe. So i still think removing it would work. I also can't see pistols being used to snipe at all (but mabye im going for too much realism)

since replacing Aim is too much for people to swallow we may need to consider something else to replace. Agian i'm assuming we are receiving:

1. weak attack/fast recharge
2. moderate attack/ moderate recharge
3. moderate cone/ moderately long recharge
4. Aim
5. ???, many sets have a unique attack here, usually a AoE of some kind (Ice Storm, Irradiate, Frag Grenade etc)
6. Snipe
7. Hige Damage/Long Recharge (ussually with short range)
8. Low Damage/ Special effect (weak mez, etc)
9. Nuke////Crashless Nuke//// Extreme Location AoE (Blizzard)
--
Naturally not all sets follow this exact order but they all have these general powers. This is my model for Dual Pistols /w Aim:
1. Same
2. Same
3. Same
4. Aim
5. Toggle for whatever-we-decide
6. Low Damage/ Special Effect (most likely a mez)
7. Same
8. Toggle for whatever-we-decide 2
9. Superior Cone Dot (Generic Full Auto..)
I left out a Target AoE because i don't know of any pistol ammunition that could do something like that. I mean, it has to be 'kinda' realistic right? Sure i could think of something that would work for a Target AoE but I just cant see dual pistols getting anything like that. AR got one because its a swiss-army gun. Its a grenade launcher/Shotgun/Flamethrower combo

The other toggle takes place of the snipe. It was either the Snipe or the low damage/mez attack. I personally would get rid of the Snipe as you can see but its open for debate. I see the low damage/mez being much more useful to the soloing blaster (because for some reason everyone is in the blaster mind set).

I really like this set up but i'd like to see more Dual Pistol powerset lay outs just so everybody can get an idea of what everybody is thinking of so we can hopefully come to some kind of compromise on what looks best for it (and agian, dont be afraid to throw your own ideas out there)

P.S. I idea for the first toggle is the +Damage type or +To recharge/accuracy/whatever. The Second is the +%chance to X on target.

Impossible! *Siphon Speed Mngwa* muhahahaha i got you now!

I still click the powers (waiting on some "expert" to call me a n00b)

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No it does not.

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umm.. yes it does. many of us are playing it on Vista.. im playing it right now on vista!

(vista still sucks though.. i hate you microsoft)

anyway, try setting it.. nevermind.. people got you covered.

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This rule is pretty lame

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agreed

slot Protector Bots 3 Defense Buff/2 Damage/1 Accuracy
slot Force Field Generator 3 Defense Buff
i also grabbed Aid Other over Repair. Repair's cooldown is too long and is a waste on the Battle Drones.
Another nifty trick i learned is caltrops force a fear reaction in most enemies. lay some of those down and they wont attack, instead they will try to leave the caltrops thus allowing for more mitigation

and as others have said: lead off with the seeker drones. They not only will absorb the Alpha attack but also Debuff Tohit (youm ay want to slot them for -Tohit to stack with your huge defense.. thats what i did)

...Poison>Pain!!

(runs away as he knows how obvious his trolling is.. bad Vel..bad)

IronYeti is my hero of choice!

there will always be noobs, sometimes i feel the same way "The_Player" but i always seem to find myself exemplaring down to the 1-15 range on my main more often then playing with people above say 35.

Yes, there are those stubborn people who just cant/dont/refuse learn how to play their powerset. Now i understand if some n00b scrapper doesn't know how a Dark/-- Defender works because hes a noob. And i only expect him to understand his own class for now. As time goes on and as he teams with more dark/-- defenders and as he plays alts, he'll start to get the idea of how each powerset works.

You cant expect some casual n00b to know EVERYTHING. yeha common sense is neccesary but agian. I don't expect a n00b X to know anything about class Y yet.

Patience. We don't want this game full of jerks (like some other MMO's i wont name) that dont help the n00bs but instead expect them to be "This" powerful and "That" knowledgeable before even considering teaming with them. Well how the hell do you expect them to learn if you don't communicate and help them yourself?

heh i need it too. Send me an E-mail when your going to do it or look me up.
im a kin/energy defender so if you dont want me thats fine.

@vel_overload

^-- send away when you want to do it and i'll look you up!

I like Investigation and Super Vision the best. We already have Karate. Martial Arts used by Stalkers and Scrappers.

remember that Defenders get Zero mez protection and only get that resistance after 40. Also thats ALL we get. If we go Dark we get Negative and Toxic but Power only gives Smash/Lethal. Electric gives the big three S/L/E and Psi gives.. well.. you get the idea. We dont get much on top of that Smash/Lethal

No poison because as a defender... oh wai~

first I'd like to thank Umbral for doing that math i asked for.. BEFORE i asked it (Awesome use of Ouroboros).

I think people got confused when i said damage-toggles.

The toggles would ADD damage. Getting hit with an incindiary bullet is still -lethal- and its on fire, thus it deals fire/lethal damage.

Same sense as the icicles power from ice armor. its still a giant spike yet frozen thus it is lethal.

Communist penguin had a neat secondary power set going but it seems it would only work with Dual Pistols and Assault Rifle.

Instead of thinking of a secondary that fits for blasters, we should think of one that would work for corruptors as their "traps" seem more towards the "tech" side of the origins tree. Blasters already have a secondary that syncs well with DP, Devices so I don't feel as if Blasters need a whole new secondary Expecially one that is specifically made and/or catered for only 1 or 2 primaries.

I really wanted to replace the Snipe ability and Aim from DP with atleast 2 toggles. Anymore than that and your limiting attack options and only 1 seems unnecessary. I'm growing on the idea of a Critical hit but im worried that it wouldn't mesh well with scourge from the Corruptor. Not many people use the Snipe so it wouldnt be missed THAT much.

I have to agree with Samual_Tow that the different damage types may not actually be as effective as they are on paper. When your in the thick of combat your not too worried about your damage type. How often do you hear from the Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster "oh, i cant fight CoT because those behemoths are resistant to fire damage.." ? It doesn't seem like a game-changing idea anymore.

Because of this, I think we need 1 toggle to be +Critical Chance (to make up for the lack of Aim) and... I dont know.. i cant come up with a second toggle. I really like Toxic damage though, as there is ZERO powersets that utilize Toxic damage and would be very unique. But agian damage is damage. Mabye "Armor piercing rounds" which make a % of your damage unaffected by defense. So even if your attack is dodged, say (example, dont freak out..) 33% of the attack damage is still applied. I don't know how PvP people would like it but I know that Defense is king and purple candy is easily obtained.

Just more ideas the add to the list so please don't bite my head off.
And thanks for keeping this a positive discussion.

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Vel_Overload wrote:

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i have no problem with controllers...
i have a problem with 50% of the controller population being Fire/Kin...

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I look at it this way... when people see my non-fire/kin controllers, those people know mine aren't FotM builds. Because they're not.

--NT

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Fire/Kin isnt FotM though.. its FotCOH