Unthing

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But one question for you all is Tough and Weave a must for Ice tankers. Especialy Weave as i find it uses loads of Endurance ?

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If you are going for the fighting pool the only decent power is Weave. The fighting pool is all about stacking resistance/defence on top of your existing powers. You have no Slash/Lethal resistance so Tough is pretty useless, sure you get 23% resistance, but that is not worth the endurance. Weave on the other hand is well worth the ( same amount of ) endurance, it gives 7.8% defence fully slotted which gets you very close to the hard cap. However for 3 powers and 4 slots I'm not sure it's worthwhile.

I've found that Ice is perfectly survivable without it. also quite a few defender team buff powers give a bit of defence ( shadowfall, fortitude , bubbles etc ) or a -acc debuff ( Darkest night, Flash Arrow, Tenebrous Tentacles, nightfall, Smoke Grenade ), which stack with your armours to give the same result.

If you want to improve survivabilty, apparently Aid Self is a better bet.

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As for Energy Absorption, it goes something like this:

Base: 10*0.6 + 1 = 7%
1*DEF: 10*0.72 + 1.20 = 8.4% (+1.4)
2*DEF: 10*0.84 + 1.40 = 9.8% (+1.4)
3*DEF: 10*0.94 + 1.56 = 10.92% (+1.12)

So you do obviously get marginally less benefit from the 3rd enhancement, but then it's all pretty marginal anyway. 27.6% is your DEF before EA, so it's a question of how much better 38.51% DEF is than 34.5% (which I can't do in my head as my math-fu is dreadful).

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You take 75% damage if you have 38.5% rather than 34.5% defence. However if you have combat jumping ( 3% def ) this gets better and goes to 67%. As you know the maths of defence means the closer to 45% you get the more value a single percetnage point of def has.

Why? Is that the limit on feared people attacking?

With that build I hope Chilling Embrace doesn't wake people out of fear...

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Boerewors don't believe the most common hero builder stats about the endurance costs of Ice Shields, especially the first one, Frozen Armour, which costs tons more than the builder says. You will definitely need 2 end-reducers in there, and at least one in every other armour toggle or you'll be needing to pop blues all the time. Ice Armours are end-heavy, especially if you later intend to run Icicles and Focused Accuracy, which are also very endurance hungry toggles.

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nofuture seems to say that Ice Armour toggles are the same cost as all the other set's toggles. My experience of the other tanker sets seems to fit with that, so do believe the hero planners. The main difference is that as Ice you have to run 4 different ones ( Frozen Armour, Chilling Embrace, Wet Ice and Glacial Armour ) rather than the more normal 3. Once you add Icicles ( or any other damage aura ) to it, that gives you far more toggles you need to run. Only Stone has more, but they are easier toggles to decide whether to run or not. Although I've never player stone seriously so someone else could be the judge of that.

Generally I find that slotting end reds in attacks is more effective in dealing with your end management than adding extras to toggles. Each attack is about 1 endurance per second rather than the minor 0.26 end per second that a toggle uses. The first end red has more effect than the second as well. However as you can only 6 slot things it is all a balancing act.

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Unthing, you are right about the slows in Chilling Embrace if herding - it slows you down as much as them. However, while running in super-slow-mo, they aren't hitting or shooting, so it can act as a major extra in attack prevention (and makes enemy players physically ill in PvP, especially the stalkers ).

If you prefer not having slows in there, and never intend to PvP, then swap out the Slows for Taunts by all means, and move any extra slots to other powers. Having those slows in there however can be important when the blasters use scattering AoE attacks such as Rain of Fire, as it maximises the damage those do, and any Ice Blaster with Blizzard is going to adore you.

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Any enemy that is slow is one that is potentially less close to my icicles and foot stomp. However if I decide to get Ice Storm I may well change my slotting priorities. I don't PvP, as you can probably tell by my lack of ACC enhancements.

One think I've noticed about these builds is that the powers which are slotted most differently on an Ice tank are Chilling Embrace and Energy Absorption.

Chilling embrace

Ammon ice: 1xEndRdx 3xSlow 1xTaunt
The Spad: 1xEndRdx
Unthing: 1xEndRdx 1xTaunt
Ammon Stone: 2xEndRdx 1xSlow

Looks like Ammon likes his enemies running the Baywatch way. Personally I find that slow enemies slow down the fighting. I like to herd a bit and it takes ages if they can't move.
I put a Taunt in because I initially had put 2 slots there in order to deal with the endurance cost. I now realise that was unnecesary once I gained levels ( same as Wet Ice ). However I like the extra taunt in there, so when/if I ever respec I'd probably keep a taunt in CE.


Energy Absorption

Ammon Ice: 2xRechg 3xEndMod 1xEndRdx
Spad: 3xDefBuf 3xRechg
Unthing: 3xRechg 2xDefBuf 1xEndMod
Ammon Stone: 2xEndMod 2xRechg 1xEndRdx

Spad is all out defensive. I am mostly defensive with a slight end bonus. I've always used it as a defensive top up, with a end mod bonus.

Ammon has end reds and end mods and has ignored the defence. Interesting. I think it costs 13 and gives back 15 per enemy. So he's using it mainly as a endurance recovery tool.

Shame it only has room for 6 slots really. I'd love to slot it 3xDef, 3xRecharge, 3xEnd mod. Personally I think that the recharge is probably the most important aspect as you then get the benefit of both the defence and the endurance as often as possible.

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Although Fire Breath is about twice the damage of Short Circuit, having 4 attacks that you can use as PBAoEs could be pretty neat ( FSC, Combustion, Lightning Ball and Short Circuit ). A Fire/Fire blaster would have to jump out to reposition for the Fire Breath. An Elec/Fire could just hold still.

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And Burn. And Hot Feet. It's certainly not a solo build, but with a Tank, 'troller or ideally both along nothing touches it for AoE mayhem.

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Yes, I was really comparing the differences between a Elec/Fire and a Fire/Fire. Both get Burn and Hot feet and even Blazing Aura. I guess once you have Hot Feet and Blazing Aura, perhaps the Elec outshines the Fire, because of the lack of hokey kokeying.

Granite doesn't have -ACC. What does this have to do with Ice Men Rockething anyway?

Here goes my Ice build.

Name: Hibernal Flea
Level: 44
Archetype: Tanker
Primary: Ice Armor
Secondary: Super Strength

01) --> Frozen Armor==> DefBuf(1) DefBuf(3) DefBuf(3) EndRdx(9) EndRdx(17)
01) --> Jab==> Dmg(1) EndRdx(15) Acc(17) EndRdx(40)
02) --> Chilling Embrace==> EndRdx(2) Taunt(7)
04) --> Haymaker==> EndRdx(4) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Acc(9) EndRdx(36) Rechg(36)
06) --> Wet Ice==> EndRdx(6) EndRdx(7)
08) --> Hoarfrost==> Rechg(8) Rechg(11) Rechg(11) Heal(13) Heal(13) Heal(15)
10) --> Combat Jumping==> DefBuf(10)
12) --> Taunt==> Taunt(12)
14) --> Super Jump==> Jump(14)
16) --> Hurdle==> Jump(16)
18) --> Health==> Heal(18) Heal(19) Heal(19)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Icicles==> EndRdx(22) Dmg(23) EndRdx(23) Dmg(33) EndRdx(34) Dmg(34)
24) --> Glacial Armor==> DefBuf(24) DefBuf(25) DefBuf(25)
26) --> Energy Absorbtion==> Rechg(26) DefBuf(27) DefBuf(27) Rechg(31) Rechg(31) EndMod(31)
28) --> Hasten==> Rechg(28) Rechg(29) Rechg(29)
30) --> Rage==> Rechg(30) Rechg(36) TH_Buf(42) TH_Buf(43)
32) --> Knockout Blow==> Acc(32) Dmg(33) Dmg(33) EndRdx(34) Rechg(37) EndRdx(37)
35) --> Hibernate==> Rechg(35) Heal(37)
38) --> Foot Stomp==> Dmg(38) Dmg(39) Rechg(39) EndRdx(39) EndRdx(40) Rechg(40)
41) --> Block of Ice==> Acc(41) Hold(42) Hold(42) Hold(43) Rechg(43) Rechg(46)
44) --> Ice Blast==> Dmg(44) Dmg(45) Dmg(45) EndRdx(45) EndRdx(46) Rechg(46)

I like balanced tankers, combining offense and defence. This is the build I levelled up with, I never saw any reason to respec so far. Rage is run perma. I jump alot.

Ice/Fire, probably the biggest aggro magnet of the tanker world! Also it's the second best for AoE destruction ( only Fire/Fire beats it ).

Ah, should have checked the controller/corruptor version.

Yes, I'd agree that solo a Mind Controller is safer, especially if you also invested in the sleep.

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I reckon a Dark/Sonic could do as well if not better. Dark has more -dam ( over 60% rather than 30% ) and -res ( -30 rather than -25 ) than Rad. As -res from the secondary improves -dam I suspect this may be the most important thing. Its -regen is as good, if not better, the only thing it is missing is -recharge. Dark has a better self heal than Rad too.

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It's pretty easy to hit 90% -damage with dark. Rad could get about twice as much -regen I believe though unless they fixed it?

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I forgot about the Dark Servant, yes, with that you get another 30% which gets you to 90%. Although the -res will help if the AV is resistant to their own damage type.

From nofuture:

Lingering Radiation has a 90 second recharge and a 30 second duration for a -100% regen. So assuming you have hasten and Accelerate Metabolism running ( which is reasonable ) you have a perma -100 regen.

Twilight grasp has a 20 second duration and a 8 second recharge for a -50% regen. With a 2 second activation that means if you have a single recharge in it you can get -100% regen. However the Dark Servant also uses it so you get another 50% I'd guess.

Psi has 2 attacks that are very fast and very damaging. Both are around 1 second. It's the early attack and the cone that are slow.

nofuture.org.uk is the most reliable source of power data, although it is I7 data.

I found playing a solo controller even worse than a defender, even with containment. Oh well each to his own. Mastermind solo is fine though.

Seems a reasonable build.

Don't slot PFF. 1 recharge is all it needs to make you almost completely invulnerable.

Is there a reason why you are 3 slotting Hurdle? PvP?


These are minor points below.

From the leadership pool, for a bubbler I'd say slots in Maneuvers are more useful than slots in Tactics. An unslotted Tactics will increase the to hit of your team such that they can hit foes about 2 levels more. The 3 extra slots only increases that by 1. Maneuvers on the other hand gets your teammates so close to 45% defence soft cap that even the last 0.7 defence you get increases survivability a great deal ( about 15% less damage between 2 slotted and 3 slotted ).

Also I'd say than generally Tactics is more useful than Assault so I'd get it first. Assault is a 18.75% damage buff, which in real terms means that your team do 10% more damage. As by that time your force fields are going to allow your team to safely survive about 2 levels higher than without you ensuring that they hit is probably more important.

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Soloing with a Bubbler is nearly impossible or as OVWyx said boring. If you want a good secondary, never look at the Psi. Sonic is good but don't forget about its inherent -acc (hero builder says that but i think Psi has far more -acc, even with two acc SO, Psionic Lance still misses).

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Sonic only has an accuracy penalty on 2 powers. Shockwaves ( Cone Knockback ) and Siren's Song ( Cone Sleep ). Other than that it is normal accuracy.

You cannot stop a power from missing, all powers will miss 5% of the time. Psychic Lance has an accuracy of 1.2, the same as any other snipe ( except the archery one which is better ).

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If you want to use bubbles try a troller, which is easy to solo btw. Actually IMO bubbles is best at the hands of a MM. :P

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Controller and MM bubbles are 75% of the value of the defender powers, giving 29.25% defence total instead of 39%. That makes the difference between cutting damage to 40% of normal and cutting damage to 22% of normal.

I'm loving my FF/Sonic.

I've only got the bubbles from the Primary so far, including the PFF ( so 4 powers ). I've slotted Deflection, Insulation and Dispersion with 3 slots each.

I'm fairly secondary light too, I've only picked Shriek, Scream and Shout ( the single target attacks ). With Hasten they chain pretty well. Because the primary is pretty cheap on slots I've 5 slotted them.

I've picked up the Medicine pool, which was well worthwhile. Aid Self is less useful than I thought it would, however Aid Other is so useful, it allows me to fill in some healing duties.

I've also picked up Maneuvers from the Leadership pool, this seems to have done my endurance some diservice, but it is still a pretty reasonable build from an endurance point of view.

Soloing is not fantastic, it is pretty boring but doable. Against evens and +1s it only takes a few shots to take them down. Sonic really comes into it's own when fighting enemies with lots of hitpoints, then the debuffs stack up pretty well. Against the AVs I fought today, their hitpoints started to drop rapidly after I had started my attack chain on them. So it does seem to make up for the lack of -res or +dam in the set, at least when fighting big enemies.

All in all, at level 26 I like this character, he seems a good team player, I never feel like a waste of space. For instance today I had a level 22 tanker tanking 26s for a 6 man team.

Tanking +5s is something only a Granite can do consistantly, especially on a large team I'd say an Ice tank with all the powers can do +3s ( +4s with support ). If you add Aid Self or Weave I'd up that maybe by +1 but I'm not sure.

The difference better an Ice tank tanking and a Granite tanking is that whilst a Granite is brilliant at shrugging off aggro but no so good at taking damage, an Ice tank is less good at taking damage but is the master of grabbing aggro. There is no way to buff aggro-magnetism survivability but lots of ways to buff survivability ( 80% of defender primaries ), so it depends on the rest of the team and the players involved who ends up best. The other thing is whilst the stone tank is really slow, the Ice tank slows everyone down so appears really fast.

All tank primaries have their forte and often the enemy type, playstyle and the other player in the team make so much difference.

I've found at low levels the most important power defensively for slotting is your hitpoint boost. So if by level 12 you get Hoarfrost, Dull Pain or Earth's Embrace 6 slotted with recharge DOs, you get a 40% damage mitigation that is up 2/3rd of the time. When you get to SOs you then change to 3 recharge and 3 heal slotting.

For Fire tanks ( who don't get a hitpoint boost ) you want to 6 slot your heal, probably with even heals and recharges.

Another useful thing is to 3 slot Health. Yes Health, the one you get before stamina. I did this on my Ice Tank and it really made a large difference between level 17 and level 19. I'm not sure this is worthwhile for Fire tanks ( with their decent self heal and no hitpoint boost ) or Stone tanks ( with their Rooted regen ).

Edit: If you are going to stay Inv, the 4 most important pre 20 powers from your primary should be Temp Inv, Dull Pain, Unyielding and Invincibility. Get each of them ASAP. Slot Invincibility with your 2 slots at level 19. You want 3 or 4 slots in temp inv, depending if you want an End red ( I'd say yes to 4 ). Dull Pain should be 6 slotted early too. Slots in Unyielding can wait, it really makes very little difference ( with DOs you gain 1% resistance to all per slot, whoopi-do! ), slots in Health are a much better investment defensively ( your level 17 slots if you can spare them ).

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Depending on build, Rad/Sonic can be very strong in teams, solo and in PvP


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I reckon a lvl 50 rad/sonic def with a shivan could be a Hero that can take down an AV.

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I reckon a Dark/Sonic could do as well if not better. Dark has more -dam ( over 60% rather than 30% ) and -res ( -30 rather than -25 ) than Rad. As -res from the secondary improves -dam I suspect this may be the most important thing. Its -regen is as good, if not better, the only thing it is missing is -recharge. Dark has a better self heal than Rad too.

Can't really call him my favourite as he's my only one. Dr Ruin is my Sonic/Dark Corruptor.

The -res from sonic stacks with the -res from Tar Patch and as -res makes -dam more effective, that gives some truly awesome damage mitigation.

He's pretty nifty, his biggest achievement is managing to tank a few AVs in a duo with a dominator. In the 2-3 cases where it has been successful, it did require luck.

Also with Fearsome Stare and Howling Twilight ( I'm a villain I don't use it as a resurrect ) as control he is pretty effective.

That makes me want to play him again.

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My money is currently on Fire/Elec. Arguments can go around and around on it all they like

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Pah, Elec/Fire is the BOMB - quite literally. PBAoE madness FTW every time for me

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No elec/ isnt very damaging and /fire isnt blasting and id give fire/fire the bomb value unless ya got time for a /dev to set up..

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Although Fire Breath is about twice the damage of Short Circuit, having 4 attacks that you can use as PBAoEs could be pretty neat ( FSC, Combustion, Lightning Ball and Short Circuit ). A Fire/Fire blaster would have to jump out to reposition for the Fire Breath. An Elec/Fire could just hold still.

I'm just planning on PvE for the moment. I'm not really sure which of the passives to get first though. also I want to get Spin, I can't fit it in yet, I was hoping to get it in the 20s.

Has anyone got a levelling up build for Claws/SR?

I run hibernate for periods of 10 seconds, rarely anymore than that. Running it for 1/3rd of the battle is irresponsible and shows that your team probably doesn't need you. Although saying that some teams just want a tanker for the alpha strike in which case Hibernate serves that pretty well.

I have a Claws/SR, has anyone got any build advice.

Currently I'm level 16 this is kind of my plan. Anything after 23 is not decided.

This is my current build with SO slotting, current slotting is slightly different

01) --> Strike==> Acc(1) Dmg(3) Dmg(7) Dmg(13)
01) --> Focused Fighting==> DefBuf(1) DefBuf(7) DefBuf(15)
02) --> Slash==> Acc(2) Dmg(3) Dmg(5) Dmg(5) Rechg(31)
04) --> Focused Senses==> DefBuf(4) DefBuf(13) DefBuf(23)
06) --> Hurdle==> Jump(6)
08) --> Follow Up==> Acc(8) Rechg(9) Rechg(9) Rechg(11) Acc(15)
10) --> Practiced Brawler==> Rechg(10) Rechg(11)
12) --> Hasten==> Rechg(12) Rechg(17) Rechg(17)
14) --> Super Speed==> Run(14)
16) --> Health==> Heal(16)
18) --> Focus==> Dmg(19) Dmg(19) Dmg(23)
20) --> Stamina==> EndMod(20) EndMod(21) EndMod(21)
22) --> Quickness==> Run(22)

It all seems kind of tight.