UnicyclePeon

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As for players who think they will just be albe to drop every mission they get to PL off a contact... think again; we're crazy. Not that crazy.

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Can you clarify what you mean here? I sometimes take a mission, then end up not doing it, and street sweeping for 3-4 levels instead because the story didnt interest me or I just forgot and now its green or grey. I want to be able to drop those and get whatever the next mission is, if its in my level range still, and if not, then I want the contact to give me the next contact.

Will we be able to do this? Can you give an example of what WONT work? I'm not sure what the PL angle is from a mission perspective, I'm hoping a "some ruin it for the rest" thing wont prevent me from just being able to drop any mission and get a different one or a different contact.

Lewis

The addition of a endurance reduction is pointless. In most of my powers, because of "diversity", there is no point in slotting past 3 of anything. This gives me at least 1 slot extra to do something with. In most of them, there is nothing else to do other than put an end reducer in anyway, so an end reduction is pointless. Also, most of my characters already have all the powers they ever want so its even pointless to move slots to other powers because I dont want to slot those powers and wouldnt even if I had extra slots.

An Endurance Reduction is a weak benefit to the worst MMO design decision I have ever seen in an MMO (Enhancement Diversity).


EDIT: since you have too much invested in ED to ditch it (even though it is awful) at least make things simple. Disallow more than 3 of the same enhancement, period. Keep full benefit from all 3. That would still keep this to be the most horrble design decision ever, but at least there would be no misunderstanding by casual players. They would see they cant have a 4th damage (it would be meaningless anyway, not that they would know) so they would do something els.

Again, ED is abysmal.

FINAL EDIT: Players could already slot different than 1/5 or 6 of anything. Why force them? Anyway, diversity will go out the window again when everybody figures out the most efficient choices again. Will it distress you when everybody goes 1/3 on defenses and debuffs and 2/3/1 on damage?

Lewis

Statesman,

I strongly dislike I5. Total Lockdown was the reason I played controllers, and the ability to take it on the chin no matter what was why I played Tankers.

For my controllers, the only really positive thing that came out of I5 for me was that containment made my Gravity Controller fun. She was kinda slow in her ability to kill (was level 32) in I4 but containment made snappy and zappy. I ditched all my AoE controls and maxed Crush, GD, Lift and Propel for damage, and quickly enjoyed her up to level 34 so far, more as a blaster. My other controllers, however, while passable with I5 respecs, are kinda lost to me. I used respecs to make them as efficient as I could but being pre-level 41 (fireball) but post 32, my Ice, Fire, and Earth controllers just don't get a lot of mileage from Containment and their control is reduced to the point of being situational instead of always available. They are too different. I feel like the original AT is lost. My Illusion Controller feels about the same as he did, except that Flash is pointless now when you consider the long animation time vs the short base duration. That's OK he gets to save 5 slots if he wants to. All in all, my controllers are totally different, and I don't enjoy them very much. The exception is Gravity Control. I also started a Mind Controller that is fun as a solo blaster too because of containment.

I'll still enjoy 2 of my 6 controllers, at least until Containment is Nerfed.

My tankers ... they aren't fun at all now. I played with them some but they just fail to feel tankish or elicit a smile anymore. My Ice/Super Strength Tanker in particular (level 24) was hit hard and I already viewed him as a weak underdog in I4. The only fun powers he has are his secondary powers at this point. My Invuln tanker can capture the old feel if I max smashing and lethal and tough hide and invincibility or defense and my elemental passives and unyielding and if I totally avoid any foes with any elemental attacks. Of course then I have 2 attacks. Maybe that was the point. Anyway, He is level 38 and I'm just not enjoying. Then again I mostly considered him retired even before I4 was announced. He was fun but I did what I set out to do with him.

At this point both my tankers are off for deletion after this post.

I like the Sonic Blast set. I hate the Archery Set. I Like the Trick Arrow set, it is decent. The Sonic Resonance set is a nice set though the graphics and sounds give me vertigo (same as Force Field Bubbles and Hurricane affect me, no biggie). The new zone is cool. None of it makes up for the total AT changes I was handed (IMO). Too bad.

I do appreciate the effort that went into I5, I understand some of the reasons the changes were made, I just cant say its as fun for me. I5 made the game smaller, less bold, and made the limits less fun to push. Things are more methodical or tedious now. I'm a cautious player so I always build for max defense, max control, max ability to survive, so obviously a paradigm shift to anti-defense was counter to my playstyle. Some people win, some lose. But again, I do appreciate the enthusiasm the devs have even if I dont agree with the direction.

Despite not liking Issue 5, I will continue to play and enjoy COH. It is still a fantastic game. For my money it still continues to be the best MMORPG on the market, because of the genre and the quality of most of the Staff. I look forward to more issues, and I know that the Developer experiences with COH will make COV a great game.

Lewis

I found Defiance on test to be somewhere between a cruel joke, and pointless. I don't know (or care) how anybody else plays their blasters, but the defiance damage bar doesn't even start to raise until WELL after I have withdrawn from a fight. I normally dont even let my life bar get into the yellow, and if it does, I'm already running. Even when my life bar was angry red, the defiance bar wasnt even at 20%.

Who would ever use such a power? Yeah, you could co-ordinate and keep your life super low on a team or something weird but really, I barely noticed the damage increase when I was in the red, when I tried to stick it out. I'd rather stay at full health and zap with confidence.

I can think of one friend who would fine this useful and use it regularly, and he plays every AT like a scrapper.

Lewis

Arctic Moon (Pinnacle)

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Controller pet powers are just so much more powerful than their other powers that it becomes a must have. It's not good for a power set to have one amazing power and eight luke-warm ones, and that's the way that many view the controller power sets.

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You couldn't be more wrong. The lockdown powers are where it's at. Without them backing up the pet, the pet would be pointless.

Lewis

Statesman,

I want to add my opinion here that Defenders make the game faster and safer, but they aren't needed. They shouldn't be needed. No AT should be. Certain tasks or teams may feel they need them and thats great.

Every time you post that you like Defenders but are concerned that they aren't needed (twice so far that I've noticed), many of us worry. If the game is changed to the point where you "need" a Defender (or *any* AT) then doesn't that fly directly in the face of your goal of allowing people to solo at any point in their career?

I don't ask to be able to do all content but I ask to be able to solo at all levels in a non-tedious way, if I'm willing to skip team-only content. Making Defenders, or any AT, "needed" pushes the soloability zone from "already too narrow at times" to "so darned tedious or dangerous that you won't want to solo but someone can claim that, *technically* you can."

Please keep your former promise (to allow soloing, but to encourage teaming) by making teaming more fun, not by making soloing less fun or less possible.

I wonder why people think Defenders are not important. I love teaming with them, and I have 2 myself. I think it may be a lack of attention to the secondary. My Scrappers, Tankers, Controllers and even to a degree my Blasters ALL slot their seconday equally when compared to the primary. I feel a Defender is most balanced when they do they same. Some people view this as an "Offender" but I think a Defender who is as happy using his seconday as his primary will be one who brings more to a team.

Lewis

21/21 here also, but at least 2 of them were process of elimination for me also.

Lewis

Statesman,

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1. Actually, we've tweaked SS in the past; the issues with SJ have slowly evolved over time.

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Just because a power has been modified in the past does not imply that power is fair game for any change of any kind in future.

From another thread:

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There was an inherent unfairness with the travel powers; only Flight had a -50% ToHit debuff. Yet Super Speed and Super Leap could create situations similar to hover snipe (i.e. flying above a mob and firing away) where they could fight at little to no risk.

Example: click on Super Speed, run up to mob, attack, run away. Rinse and repeat.

Super Leap already has a toggle that was always intended for battle situations (Combat Leaping) and Super Speed has Hasten (which gives not only a defensive buff, but also an incredibly powerful –recharge).


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I see that here you are trying to balance an inequity that has existed for a long time, and that apparently it has little to do with PvP, despite the timing. However, you still have not really answered the question. The real question is, why were Super Speed and Super Jump burdened with a 50% acc penalty for this difference between the powers? Why was flight not modified to drop the accuracy penalty?

People can still use Flight + Hover at no more risk than Flight without an acc penalty would be. Foes can shoot back no better or worse either way, and every foe has some ranged attack. Please explain how the Acc penalty on Flight is not almost entirely circumvented merely by briefly switching to hover. How will lifting the Acc penalty from fly really affect that?

If there was some fear that removing the penalty from Fly made Hover pointless, then consider that an alternate solution would be to make hover as valuable as the other entry powers, and dropping the penalty on Fly would be the better choice. I'm sure if you called for ideas you'd get many good suggestions.

Making hover desirable by smashing the other travel powers does not make sense to me. A more in depth explanation is called for.

Also I want to mention that the lack of vertical movement on Super Speed more than makes up for its Stealth ability. I would also like to say that if a 5th Speed pool power were offered that worked just like Super Speed but had a level requirement of 20, I'd take it. I just like the speed. It makes the game fun. It saves my allies. It feels heroic. I would argue that Flight deserves this same fun factor.

Speaking of fun factor ... I leave Super Speed on at all times for the fun. I tried playing several heroes remembering to turn off super speed before every single action I took. I also turned the darned power on each time I needed to zip 15 feet away for some tactical reason or adrenaline-soaked rescue action. It was tedious. I cannot ever imagine that the developers would remove the fun factor from almost every character I have (I'm a speed junkie) and doubtless from many other players as well ... unless there were some other reason.

Some other catalyst.

I hope you will offer more explanation.

Thanks for all the work,

Lewis

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We just seem to have fundamentally different opinions about the proper roles of Propel and Crush. You see the first as a control power and the second as a damage power; I'm just the opposite.

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I don't view either one, currently, as significant control or damage powers.

Considering that Propel has done no damage and no real control for a year, I think that's the place to put the disorient. As much as I hate DS, it IS a (tertiary) form of control and I can see leaving it as-is for situational and PvP use. After testing, I'm getting more control from the single-target WH than the new test one. Propel or Crush are the only alternatives.

The control effect from Crush and Propel is minor in both cases. If i put 1 acc and 5 immob dur in Crush, its effect on a combat is almost indistinguishible from the effect of having 1 acc and 1 immob duration. It isn't much of a control power. If you wanted to spam Immob, use CF.

So, no. Crush isn't about control except minimal survival at low levels and in a few rare situations. It also is not about damage. Neither is Propel. If you had to ramp one of these quasi-control powers up to be a damage option, it would be Crush, especially since ALL of the elemental controllers need a single target damage option and all of them have a mostly-pointless single-target Immob.

Propel is barely high enough (level 6), maybe, to justify being an AoE disorient, has an effect that makes sense with it, and has only been collecting dust anyway. You could even move DS to level 6, it isnt too powerful for that, and move Propel (a disorient version) to level 12.

Lewis

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Honestly...if they actually broke down and dialed back the activation time on Propel, I don't know what people would find to complain about.

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I don't even have to wait for them to do it to complain.

Making Propel into a valuable single target damage tool still fails to address the control gap, which is the drive behind most issues with gravity. Animation times are a limiting factor for the set's control powers as a whole, not just on a flawed damage power like Propel.

If there is some desire to add damage to the set, they should add it to the single target Immobilize (Crush for gravity). That is where it should be added to all the controllers that have one. Make that thing be as good as Spectral Wounds and THEN you have an "OK if you MUST solo for a bit, you can" power.

Propel, both old and new, is clearly a hybrid damage / control power. The problem with hybrid powers is that in order to balance them, the individual components that form the whole are reduced in effectiveness. Isolating these components into different powers would allow gravity users to customize their powers like everyone else can.

Put damage on Crush. Lift is adequate as it is, you CAN slot it for a bit of extra damage, or for perma-flop. Make Propel a ranged disorient, keep the cool animation, keep the OLD levels of damage (in other words, negligible) to the targeted foe, and then trigger a disorient in an area around that target. The base disorient duration should match Flashfires and Stalagmites. Leave Wormhole as it is in Issue 3 (single target scalpel). Dimension Shift? Leave it as it is for the PvPers or for the types who like the additional tertiary / situational control powers such as sleeps and phase powers.

If there were some way to also keep the new Wormhole without losing the single target one, that'd be cool, but it's just an extra happy. If Dimension Shift could behave as it does now with a phase enhancement or act like WH 2.0 without one, that'd be cool, but probably too weird for the developers to consider.

Anyway, NOW is the time to reject WH 2.0 before we get it in play for a whole year and have people become attached to it.

THAT woud fix gravity right up.

Then scale the single target immobilize powers for ALL controllers to be effective as Spectral Wounds is now. That would let all controllers solo painfully if they absolutely had to, without becoming a melee puppy to get by. I don't know enough about mind to suggest anything or even know if it needs damage.

So, yeah, I can complain about Propel, even one that had its animation time reduced. "Thanks for returning my CDs after having them for a year. By the way, you've still got my DVD player, I kinda need that."

Lewis

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I used to solo hunt lvl 41-42 Nemesis in PI when I was 38. I've even soloed 5 AVs... which I consider my personal crowning achievments in this game. Nemesis, Chimera, Countess Crey, Terra and Envoy of Shadows (Countess was -1, Envoy and Terra were -2, Nemesis and Chimera were even con). I question my ability to have done that without a hefty supply of Inspirations, determination and my radiation secondary.

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I also took Radiation as a secondary so that my Gravity controller would be a real controller (meaning that I'd eventually have a real second hold).

Lewis

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Uh, if you want to increase your mission difficulty pre-32, more power to you Uni. Personally I do not see how you can take a gravity controller against a pack of 10 red minions and even kill one of them pre-32 before you faceplant.

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I don't bother soloing pre-32. I guess I didn't communicate it very well, but I'm trying to say that based on the difficulty I can handle with my Ice and my Fire controllers (who do have their pets), and based with my general familiarity with gravity (having played 5 of them, a few into the mid-late 20s now, and having grouped with several pet-enabled ones), I don't see how gravity could handle the same level of opposition (EDIT: depending on your secondary and your level).


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And I'm not talking about what you can handle anyway. I'm talking what tends to spawn inside a mission. Clumps of three bad guys. Sometimes multiple clumps, sure. Sometimes clumps of 2 bad guys. But typically a spawn happens in groups of three on base heroic. Heck, spawn size is similar on invincible, the mobs are just two levels higher.

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Yeah, I'll grant you that a solo gravity controller can play on easy mode and do fine, from what I can infer from my as-yet-incomplete experience (based on seeing other people's singularities in action). However, I can think of a lot of missions like COT missions that Arctic Moon soloed on the next to last setting, which I think is +1/+numbers. Despite the fact that they were only +1, supposedly, they were actually mostly all +2, which meant oranges, with red LTs and purple bosses. Also, with more spawning, and the way the Caves clump packs, it was almost impossible to isolate one pack from another. Invariably, the next group 20 feet over would aggro on me so I'm dealing with 2 packs. Sometimes 3 on a steep temple slope. On some missions I'd have to deal with those portals that spew out nasties (I failed some of those because I couldnt target the portal reliably, but went back and won some of them too). So in reality, I'd often fight 10 or more. I had similar issues with Rikti, especially in the instanced outdoor zones.

Again, setting it back down to heroic is a viable option, but I'm not claiming a Grav can't solo. I'm just saying I wonder if I will be able to handle large numbers of spawns with them? I can't visualize a Gravity controller handling a room full of portaled Behemoths. To come full circle, I would think that one way to help a little with the control gap in big situations would be the scalpel Wormhole for delivering targets (after an opening hold) into the limited lock-down zone of the Singularities. With new packs being added, I'd think I'd have to expose myself to too much risk to try to use the new AoE WH (multi aggro during slow animation) to move a new pack or section to the Wormholes. Could they lock down 5-10 adds? I'd almost rather pull in one at a time.

As I've said before, this is just a concern I have. I liked the precision tool but I won't really be able to know for sure until I'm 32-34 myself.

Lewis

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In solo play, you toss your AoE Hold and then start cycling your single-target holds. In the standard mob spawn of 3 bad guys, you can keep the entire group held indefinitely while you plink away at one target with your damage, assuming you devoted some slotting to your primary holds.

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I think this depends on the kind of solo play you do. I tend to prefer to play my other controllers' solo missions on +1 level, +foe numbers, and I also prefer to do street sweeping on the biggest packs I can handle. I'd say the foe size I face on my Ice and Fire controllers is closer to 6-8, sometimes more, depending on placement for indoor missions, and as big as I can handle for outdoor stuff (I try for packs size 8-15, depending on where I am).

I haven't achieved Singularities yet (I'm level 27, and about 3 bubbles from level 28) but I could see opening with a hold on a pack of 10 or so +3 minions (reds), throwing my second hold for the boss (purple), and then I've got my control gap because, based on the damage I've seen from playing with other Sungularity users, my hold will wear off before the Sings go through these guys. I won't be able to single-cycle that many. I have been anticipating using the Wormhole as a mechanism for feeding guys near the Singularity kill zone so that I DONT have to personally hold them anymore. Even so, I'm not sure I could handle that pack with a control gap. However, if I could handle it, Wormhole + Feeding seems like the ticket. Now, I guess I could throw CF on them also and try to WH the left half somewhere far away, but I'd have to see if that is viable myself by testing it. I might have to lower my spawn size or level difference.

Of course this is all conjecture on my part, based on experiences with my other pet-enabled controllers, and on having teaming with Gravity controllers.

I guess I'll find out (though I probably won't make level 34 (maxed Singularities) in time to test the old (current) wormhole with them). I will only be able to see if I can AoE WH part of a CF-ed pack far enough away to finish one half while working on another half.

Anyway, the idea that a solo spawn size is 3 foes is one I don't agree with, because at 32 my Ice Controller could do packs of +2s with some effort, and by the my Jacks were maxed, I could do packs of +3s, and by packs I mean 8 or more guys, or more when I find them. Sometimes the packs were smaller but in those cases, unless they were +3, I barely even had to do much. For +4s I try to stick to only 3 or 4 foes tops.

Maybe foe pack size affects how you like the new singularity. Dunno, you guys tell me. I'll find out in 4.3 levels.

Lewis

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To me, they didn't change wormhole. They dropped a power I used frequently and gave me something I can't use. Good for the unhappy group of gravs and bad for everyone else that wasn't in the loop on the change.

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I agree they made it into something I don't really want to use. I got to 26 tonight on live (again) and copied to test and tried it for myself. I DO NOT like it. Everything shoots at me or rushes me when I use it and they aren't dizzy long where I land. Thanks, but no thanks.

Anyway, about your comment, I dont think this was good for the unhappy group of gravs either. It seems like most (my gut feeling, not necessarily fact) of the complaining gravs are still complaining for precicely the reasons you mention. This isn't what we needed or asked for. The new WH is an interesting tool, at the sacrifice of a far more precice tool, and the control gap wasn't addressed.

Lewis

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Even a lot of us who like it would probably like better Disorient duration, faster activation and/or no Knockback. Perhaps that's where the idea that 'most don't like it' came from. It's a good power, but it could be better with some tweaks. It doesn't need to be turned into a new power by making it AoE though. That's a step backwards, imo.

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AH! Exactly! I wish I could be more concise in my posts. The test server WH affects more stuff but in a way that makes it a totally different tool. Improving the tool is cool, I hope the developer change ultimately becomes an "oopsie" and they change it back.

I always wanted a disorient cone on Propel, with the targeted foe being struck by the old damage (or even the new amount) but everybody else just gets the disorient. A FULL LENGTH disorient. The zero range would balance the damage to 1 target. You could slot this puppy for damage or for disorient, your choice. Would rock.

Lewis

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With the notable exception of ProcessedMeatMan, almost all of us called for some kind of change to Wormhole -- shorter animation, no knockback, longer disorient, whatever. We also largely called for another AoE control, although this request was generally formulated as "Replace D-Shift with a useful AoE control." So it looks like they read what we suggested and tried to meet our requests, such as tweaking Propel so that it no longer did sub-Brawl DPS.

What I'm saying is that that would have been a good time for people to come out and say "Wormhole is fine as it is." They didn't hear that except from PMM. The rest of us kind of drowned him out.

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I dont think people asked to have Wormhole entirely changed in function though. Just because it still ports guys doesnt mean it does the same thing. It doesnt work like it used to at all because its old value was precision and isolation. All gone now. Shorter animation, no knockback, or longer disorient would have been fine for Wormhole. People also asked for an AoE disorient but the vast majority were calling for DS and Propel to have that change.

So, while I like to believe it was accidental on the part of the devs, they happened to shaft the current use of wormhole, plus the Disorient duration is too low to answer the reason we wanted an AoE disorient. While a majority of the people in that thread wanted DS or Propel changed to a disorient or a knock up, they werent changed. At least Propel has better damage now (though I personally am still 100% uninterested in the power for other reasons).

This is totally conjecture, but I don't think we will ever be able to escape Dimension Shift There is a whole enhancement type for phase, and how many Phase powers are in the game? I can only think of 3 but dont know much about the Epic ATs' powers. Dropping Phase from DS would make them have even less powers with it. So, I dont seem them dumping that attribute. Its a shame. And all conjecture on my part. Too bad because an AoE Phase will always be then antithesis of what, to me, control is all about. Any power that interferes with my choices as much as the enemies is off the list. It even interferes with those choices more than a Sleep, so to me DS will always be at best 3rd tier control. They'd have to drop the phase, or make it do big DoT damage while the foes are phased, or something else totally crazy for me to consider it. That's why I rebuilt this 5th time as /Rad. For the control.

Its weird how Rad has 2 AoE holds (even if one is end heavy) and gravity has just 1.

Lewis

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Ha! I use crushing field quite a bit and am not afraid to say it. CF gets way more use than wormhole does when I play

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You are gravity / rad and there is at least one rockin' combo with CF and the rad set (radiation infection). That's why my 5th incarnation of Gravity is /Rad so that I can have a control option I can use every fight in addition to GDF when its ready. You can really keep the aggro off you because the enemies are whifftastic (I open with RI and then follow with CF).

Lewis

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I bet you can remember the 8 trillion threads Gravity had before Issue 1 (in particular) and every issue in between that mentioned our "control gap." The ideas that always came up (after Issue one) involved scrapping or changing Propel, DS and wormhole. It's been that way since.

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Well, if you go look at the 100+ gravity thread from a coupld months ago, you'd see that most of the requests to changed powers are focused on DS and Propel and not so much wormhole anymore. I think a lot less people had discovered the joyful uses of Wormhole with Singularity, etc, at the time you are talking about. In most of the recent uber threads on gravity, we have people defending DS and Propel, its true, but it is pretty uncommon to hear anyone scrapping Wormhole these days, at least in comparison to DS and Propel.

So, I guess I'm horrified they zapped Wormhole, because it is unquestionably and desmonstrably too darn good to mess with. I can understand someone else saying they use DS and are fine with them. I can't fathom it on Propel since, not counting I4 test, its effects and damage are mostly worthless (knocback? so what, the bad guy can run up on you before you can cast it again so you should have held them instead or use Lift. damage? less than brawl over time after the teens with hasten).

So, ok maybe people like DS but why kill Wormhole? The new Wormhole removes what the old one did, so "more enemies" isnt a better tool because its bigger. If I could have BOTH tools that'd be sweet. I just dont get losing the single target WH.

Oh crap. Its been less than 24 hours. Well it wasnt too long this time. And it is the next day anyway.

Lewis

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UnicyclePeon isn't the only one typing manifestos about it.

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I should probably feel embarassed now. I guess from here on out I'm just repeating myself. I'll try to show some compositional restraint for a day. I can go 1 day. I can. Just watch me. *Nervous Look*

Lewis

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Just for the reccord, Dimension Shift was never as worthless as everyone seemed to think on the forums either. I mean, it WAS a power that, unslotted, with just the base SO in it, could remove an entire group from combat, INCLUDING BOSSES, for a longer time than it took to recharge.

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That's pretty much what I don't want. As I said before, I never claimed that this power doesn't "do stuff" but as you said it removes an entire group from combat. This is exactly what I hate. In a team it usually makes everyone wait or confuses everyone. I know based on the way I solo with my other pet-enabled controllers, and my tests with Dim Shift in the past, that I don't want this. I pick and choose each fight carefully, so this power is worthless to me compared to a disorient (which would be offense friendly). In an "oh crap" situation, Dimension Shift is inferior to a disorient in most ways except the boss issue. However, I've been jumped by a new pack with a boss MANY times and have almost never failed to deal with them with the simple use of an offense friendly control power and some minimal strategy on the boss. If I have allies around, the new boss goes bye-bye fast. No waiting.

So yeah Dimension Shift does stuff. Other powers that do other stuff would be better, by getting rid of the control gap.

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Surely you people have noticed that there are no defenses against being phased. I predict that gravity is going to be an incredible team player in PvP, since we have not one, but TWO powers that let us remove people from combat, that there is NO RESISTANCE AGAINST. You can't resist being wormholed. You can't resist being dimension shifted. You can try to bump your defense up high enough that the controller misses, but if they hit, there's nothing you can do.

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So before people come down TOO hard on dimension shift, think for a moment. Do we REALLY want to try to bargain away the only unresistable status effect in ANY controller set? (at least that I can think of... Feel free to correct me if I'm forgetting something)

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I know some people care about PvP, maybe most people for all I know, but that is total rubbish that all the PvE players must suck up having a power that "can be used" but "blows chunks" in PvE compared to other options just because it will be good for PvP. I have to be stinktastic on bread-and-butter control just because the power is good in PvP?

You refuse to accept changes to the most commonly regretted powers in our entire set since day 1 (Dimension Shift, Propel) because the PvP is probably going to be strong and the powers are useable in PvE situationally. I guess I can't blame you. I refuse to accept Wormhole being changed after a year of being awesome, being used in every single fight by the many who have it, and being liked by almost everyone, and which would also rock as a single target PvP power for that matter.

So which of these team-mates will they fire from the team? The one with serious drug use issues who is trying to bounce back (propel)? The one short of breath from too many cigars (dimension shift)? Or the one with a twinkle in its eye (Wormhole)? I mean really. Of course they axed the fit player and brought in another (POSSIBLY more fit but less refined) player. But why not nix one of the slackers? Sure they do stuff but .... egad.

I think at this point maybe we should call for the developers to support more than the standard 9 powers in the standard tiers. After a year into the game, changes to powers like this just aren't satisfied by respecs. People are too attached.

Lewis

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Also, please note that the biggest advocate against wormhole had a gravity controller but deleted her. For those that currently play a gravi/* controller have, for the most part, found good application for it. I for one think that it is a good alpha strike as well as an excellent tool for herding (which, coincidentally, also involves packing large groups against fences and in corners)

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But still there is nothing compelling for me to get DS just yet. I don't see the need to have a large group taken out of the fight, but if i wanted detention field, i could do that with singles.

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Maybe I'm vain but I'm assuming you mean me. I see the applications for Wormhole (new) but I lament the loss of the old. If DS is so bad, why not axe that power instead? That is the point I'm shooting for.

And for the record, I've deleted FOUR gravity controllers, two I played into the late teens, and 2 I played into the mid 20s. I deleted FOUR of them because I love gravity but kept struggling with which secondary I needed to get by with the lesser control Gravity has. I finally settled for /Rad on my FIFTH incarnation, which I'm working on now, and who is level 24. One day, whether I like the toolkit powers or not, I'll have the second hold from EM Pulse. Now I know that whatever else happens, I'll be able to cover my own bases. I'm still interested in improving gravity overall though.

Also, the implication that I can't see the uses of the new wormhole is misplaced. I'm no uber player or anything. However, I have played 2 other controllers to 32 and 37, I have played 2 other non-grav controllers to the 20s, several other characters to decent levels, and I have played and levelled MANY characters in every AT, generally into the high 20s.

I also have basic reading comprehension.

Therefore, I do indeed see the uses of the new wormhole. I can appreciate the kill zone tactics and group placement possibilities. However, I'm lamenting the fact that they axed a perfectly good wormhole when they could have axed a perfectly sub-blah Dimension Shift.

Thanks,

Lewis

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The radius does NOT appear to be as big as GDF at all. More like a ten or fifteen foot radius.

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Regarding use of Wormhole against the DE emminators, it should still be fine. I haven't tried it to be sure but I would think any DE that went along with a little pet would simply run back to the battle as soon as they could.

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I need to push my new Grav to 26 to test it. Darnit. Still, splitting out foes to somewhere else and letting them run rampant isn't my idea of control. So what if they run back? Then you've got guys you aren't controlling or that are away from your kill zone. Also, 10 or 15 feet seems like it would snag a lot of guys. Not what I want for that function (removing emanators and FF generators). Also, you wont be able to pull bosses without bringing some of the crowd. They are usually standing all together.

Oh well, will have to push hard on Saturday. I agreed to a table-top RPG tonight so can't play. Wish I could play and test instead.

Lewis

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Clearly inferior? To who? As far as "pure" AoE control goes, Dimension Shift is far superior to both versions of Wormhole.

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Dimension Shift is inferior to other third tier control powers (Sleeps) but qualifies as one. After that, other controllers (not counting Illusion) get 2 other primary forms of control, we get one. Everything else in the set is parlor tricks. They needed to address the issue of more control, not exchanging one parlor trick for another one.

Like another poster implied, if everybody has their favorite power and how dare we suggest changes, then the changes to Wormhole were too drastic. Also, by that logic, they should never change anything, ever. I feel they should have axed an inferior power (DS, propel) instead of a superior one (current wormhole).

These powers are inferior not because they have more or less control than this or that but because they are bad from the "why would I ever take this power" or "why would I ever spend enhancement slots in this" perspective.

To me, killing the old wormhole to get something new is like ... killing Bonfire to get Quicksand when you could have axed Hotfeet.

Anyway, if DS were replaced by a disorient, you could still use it as a panic button, as a divide-and conquer, but it would not be slow, would not interfere with offense, and would become the other primary control gravity lacks. Putting a weak disorient on a teleport but losing the precision doesn't solve anything I needed. How about you? Yeah its a cool power, but why did we lose a good one? Wormhole was tactically awesome AND good fun and precise, and worth every slot in it. The new one MAY be also, but why lose the old one?

I would rather have a teleport seperate from a disorient anyway, so that I could pump up the effect I want. When combining 2 awesome attributes in one power, neither of the sub attributes can be too good or it becomes too good of a power. I just want the "control" somewhere else.

Oh well, I guess before long I'll be in therapy meetings with people who miss the days when it was nice to have a team teleport in the primary.

Lewis

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and LOTS of people will use and like the new wormhole. Me being one of them.

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Sure, my point is why get rid of a great power for a different (possibly) great power when there are at least 2 other clearly inferior powers to change. It's like saying "lots of people like crush, glad they dumped singularity for the new fear cone" only not as drastic. Why nix the GOOD power. I loved wormhole.

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Where do you get this "nuke" impression? And where do you get the impression they're married to it?

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Because its coming up on April and Propel has been the worst power ever in any set since release. Or on the short list anyway. But its a nuke! It makes a big boom! Why nudge the power out of total uselessness to passable usefulness NOW when they could replace it with something the set needs?

I just can't fathom hanging onto Propel and DS and ditching the most unique power gravity has (current Wormhole)? I just don't get it. I admit the impression is based purely on conjecture, but I can't fathom hanging onto propel at this stage as a damage power. Its gone for so long, why not do something good with the slot?

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It IS AoE and it IS control. The debate remains exactly how much it does or doesn't deserve that title.... and whether the Devs will hear our pleas and tweak it up a notch.

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Hey if they tweak up the new wormhole to where it works like Flashfires (or close) on the disorient duration, that'd rule, but they can't. The test server wormhole has an AoE port AND an AoE disorient and it'd be overpowered if it did both with full power. Now, making the ported target just 1 guy and the destination have the disorient (but not disorient the ported foe) would let you use the power both ways but even that would require the disorient time be less.

So I dont see how they can tweak it up a notch, not to the point that I can rely on a constant disorient like other controller powers (at least constant on one set of guys, misses notwithstanding). So, while it can be used for things, I lost a precision tool I loved and didn't get the bread and butter control that most gravity controllers have been wanting since way way before that 3 billion page gravity thread (ok, more like 100 pages).

So, I dont see how they can cram too much into one power. It would be too good. That's why I dont see why they didnt take a year, an entire YEAR, of Propel and DS sitting there rotting and just say "heck with it, lets make one of them an AoE disorient". Then at least if I wanted uber teleporting and uber disorienting I'd have to take both and max slot both. I'll admit I'm crazy irrational about it at this point and abandoned gravity for a better (read: any other) control set, but I wanted gravity to be a contender.

Now, I know some people like Dimension Shift. Almost everybody loves the animation on Propel. However, a disorient like Flash Fires, even a cone (meaning you have to get close) disorient would be as much of a bacon saver as DS, and would function for divide and conquer too. Yes, people have learned to cope with DS or view it as a unique tool that can be used, but any power can be used. I mean they all "do stuff" when you click them but I dont see the reason for not upgrading DS to a cone disorient. It would be superior in almost every context (I cant think of one it wouldnt be but I'm sure there are, I've avoided DS after trying it several times).

I feel like someone took away my bionic arm and gave me a bionic leg when I needed an Iron Lung. Know what I mean?

Ah I'm sure I'm just irritating people but I just dont fathom any of this. I'm just too wrapped up in it. Back to the Ice Tanker (just to clear my head) maybe, after I get Ms. J to 26 and try it some. Then I can come back to my gravity controller with some distance and calm.

And really, I'm not offended at your differing opinion, I'm just feeling like I'm so close to something good ... anyway about to ramble again. I do respect other people's opinions, I'm just burned out right now.

Lewis