Umbral

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I was on a team with guy that according to his badges had been playing the game since inception.

He asked what "EB" meant.

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Tell him it stands for E-Bay.

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What matters is DPA (damage per activation) because of how activation times are the limiting factor in how quickly you can deliver damage once you have enough attacks (or enough recharge, or both) to sustain a continuous attack chain.

In other words, even if you were right about how things should be balanced (and I very much believe you are not), you've gone about analyzing that balance wrong.

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You may want to tweak that and specifically say "Damage per Activation second". Damage per Activation is how much damage is dealt from a single application. DPA (as is used by number crunchers) is that number divided by the activation time (generally modified for Arcanatime).

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Personally I'd much rather have an empath consider himself a "healer" then an "archer".

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I'd much rather have a Defender than either of those.

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You should never expect public opinion to match the truth. People are stupid and oblivious. Expect their opinions to be wrong unless they have verifiable data to prove it right.


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Do you have verifiable data to back that up?

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Well, no I don't so you shouldn't really believe me.

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- Jock Tamson, Who believes you asked for that.

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How did you know? :P

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The healing aura is quite useful too; however, according to her many grateful teammates.

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You do realize that most of the people you're teaming with are going to notice stuff happening to them rather that stuff not happening to them right? Fortitude will do more to keep a target alive than all of the healing you can throw out at him/her (unless they're already at the defense softcap). People simply notice healing because it is visible. Players will notice their newly glowing red head, but they won't notice how little damage they're taking and how much less healing they need. This is also the reason why most players don't feel that FF/* is particularly potent when it's easily argued to be the best defender primary for keeping your team alive.

You should never expect public opinion to match the truth. People are stupid and oblivious. Expect their opinions to be wrong unless they have verifiable data to prove it right.

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And that's pretty much the only reason to put it in game, which isn't a very good reason at all.

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In other words concept and customization should be set aside due to time constraints? What, exactly, is the reason -not- to put it in the game? Because you -can- have something similar?

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No, what I'm saying is that there is no good reason to include a pool power set that is simply the bastardized combination of 3 existing pool power sets (Fitness, Leaping, and a bit of Speed if you really want to tote the minor +recharge).

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Well shoot! Why'd villains get Pain Domination if they already had Thermal? It's the only other Non-Empathy set in the game with an AoE and a Single target heal. Just pick up the Medicine pool and you're golden, right?

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Because it's a villain power set that differs not only in effect but also in theme and implementation. Your Acrobatics pool is already in game, only, instead of taking the 2-3 power pool choices you need to in order to get it, you want to have the devs create an entirely new power pool just so you don't have to.

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Why'd we get Willpower? It's functionally similar to both Regen and Invulnerability. Just Pick up Health And Stamina on an Invuln!

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How about maybe because you can't pick both Regen and Invulnerability? You seem to be ignoring that. Fitness + Invuln and Regen + Fighting don't have any resemblance to Willpower. Willpower is distinctly different in effect and in theme (unless you wanted to explain your Invuln or Regen character as doing all of that via Willpower).

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Katana? It's just Broadsword with different animations. Go ahead and cut it!

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Uhh... we started with them both, and, if you actually paid attention to numbers, you'd know that they also play very differently (now that they have different animations and animation times). They're only similar in the fact that they have similar powers at similar level tiers. They're nowhere near as similar as they used to be when the game first came out (re: they were made more different).

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Dual Blades? We've already got 2 sword sets in the game! Why Bother?

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Personally, that's my honest opinion that you just voiced, but, now that it's in game, I don't want them to take it out. I was curious as to why they were going to put in another weapon set when there were other more interesting and less thematically restrictive set possibilities out there (Psi Melee woo!). Now that it's in, it provides a distinctly different play style than any other melee set which is why it should stay. The combo system allows it to play like no other set can even get close to.

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Just because you can 'equate' powers doesn't mean they are adequate.

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Okay... I'm curious as to what you mean by this, especially since you've only used primary power sets to get your point across, and, even then, only melee primaries. You do realize that the pool power sets are different than the primary powers in their design, as well as their implementation and flavor, don't you? Or is it just that you have a character that you need 5 pool power choices to make at the moment and want to save on one by having a new power pool that does everything you need newly created?

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A) It's a new power pool, which will draw attention, might force some respecs, and could wind up forcing alt-rolling. Which in turn means more time spent going from 1-50 and a net gain in monthly fees.

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I really don't see how creating a new pool power is going to force alt rolling. If anything there would be respecs to account for people having the extra options, but, I doubt anyone would roll up a new character now that they have an acrobatics pool especially for them! Also, how are you going to force alt rolling, or is that simply another atrocious word choice?

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B) Not everyone WANTS to take Hasten or a metric ton of Sets. So your statement of 'Most Players' might or might not be true. Considering how few people use the market or forums (in relation to the overall population of the game) I'm leaning towards false.

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The point is that the game offers options. If you want to get more recharge, you need to either get Hasten or get IO sets (and oftentimes both). You don't have to powerbuild. What you're asking for is the right to powerbuild your character without being penalized for following the artificial constraints you're placing on yourself. Even Jack Emmert, oblivious to good game design mechanics as he was, knew that you shouldn't figure roleplay and player generated constraints on game design, because most people ignore them.

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C) It offers players an alternative to taking 2-3 different sets. Not a shining alternative, no, but an alternative which takes parts of each (Speed, Jumping, and Fitness)

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How is it any better than simply telling the player to take Leaping and Fitness if they want to do the sub-Super Leap? The devs have already said (in vehicle threads) that they're not going to create redundant methods of transportation (though that's reading a bit into it, I admit). Yours is redundant. That's the point you're not addressing.

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D) It allows concept characters a different method of advancement based on player-designed restrictions. This is a Role Playing Game, so if a person wants to have an acrobatic martial artist who is merely at the peak of human perfection he no longer requires glowing fists of fire.

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I'll point you straight back to my Jack Emmert comment. Player placed constraints should never be factored in to balance considerations. It may me a Role Playing game, but it's also a role playing Game. Games have rules. Rules need to be balanced. They are at the moment (insofar as this discussion is concerned, I've still got beefs with some systems). If you want work to be put in, you need to give decent reasons why the work should be done. "I want an acrobatic character that doesn't have to take Leaping or Fitness and gets recharge without taking Speed" isn't a very good one. It's simply a "gimme" argument.

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E) Consider the fact that short-recharge powers would basically recharge instantly on a 5 second 1000% recharge. It's been established that any 25 second or less power will recharge before the 5 seconds are up. So people could (Whether using Hasten and a ton of Set bonuses or not) could have most of their powers suddenly refresh to instantly usable, even if their recharge rate has been floored by slow-effects.

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And you do realize that means almost nothing when you factor in the fact that players already run with recharge in those powers? You're also ignoring the necessity of animation times which will eat into the effectiveness of it. You're assuming absolute best case for a very small subset of powers as a reason why the power should be put in. That's very flimsy reasoning.

And, by the way, it's not "instantly". It wouldn't be anywhere near that. A 5 second base recharge power used immediately as the effect went active (which isn't even possible considering animation time constraints) would recharge in 1 second. A 10 second base recharge power would recharge in 2 seconds. A 25 second base recharge power would recharge right as the effect was ending. 5 seconds is considerably longer than "instantly", especially when you're considering attacks and attack strings.

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So there's 5 different reasons for it to go into the game. Is that enough reasons For puting it in the game, yet? I'm sure I could think up more.

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And I'm sure they'd be just as flawed. You haven't given any decent arguments as to why it should be put in game.

<ul type="square">[*]The movement method is already in game (and show me an acrobat who isn't fit and skilled at jumping in real life anyways).
[*]The set itself isn't markedly different (and by "markedly", I'm using the definition of "in a strikingly noticeable or conspicuous manner" if its definition eludes you) from existing options. Of course, the options we have are more costly if you're going to artificially constrain yourself so as to disallow the greater benefits of the divergences, but that's player choice. The examples you gave of "similar" sets were either here when the game was first released (at which point, the difference between Katana and Broadsword is better considered an attempt at weapon customization than actual different sets), don't even apply (Invuln + fitness = WP? wtf?) or makes no sense (Thermal = Pain Domination? seriously, what the hell?).
[*] Additional player constraints exist outside of the normal bound of game balance and design and should be ignored for all intents and purposes, especially when they are done specifically to accomplish a specialized ideal that excludes pre-existing options thanks to arbitrary decisions of the player. This means there is no good mechanical or balance reason to think that you should get extra, specialized options just because you don't want to take certain pool powers.[/list]

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My mid's shows it as over 470 per activation compared to the current 448, which for me feels worth it, especially as this is the kind of high end buil;d where improvement is measured in such small numbers.
Bbut yeah, the endurance may become an issue, and I know how cozy I get with the bottom of the blue bar before CP pops, and I've 3 slotted mine.

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The current that I'm getting is 466.1 damage and switching out the dam/rech for the straight dam equates to 479.4 damage. We talking about the same build?

Yeah, I thought you were referring the the build posted by MrLiberty rather than the original build posted by Powerforge. Just checked the numbers you referenced.

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Swapping the slotting you have in Smite with that in MG increases the recharge from MG by about 0.71s because you have so much global recharge. That would move the Heca proc to a much more frequent component of your probable chain.

Could your attack chain tolerate that increase?

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No, it couldn't. MG recharges in 4.45 seconds and needs to be up in 4.488 seconds to sustain the Smite&gt;MG&gt;Smite&gt;Siphon chain. Any less recharge would create a gap in the attack chain. That's one of the reasons why MG tends to get Hecatomb. It's one of the only melee damage sets that gives good set bonuses while simultaneously granting plenteous recharge.

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Instead of dropping the Heca 'Dmg' IO, think about dropping the Heca 'Dmg/End' IO.
Much more damage that way.
You may need an extra recharge in CP for that though, even with Dark Consumption.

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I wouldn't really recommend it. You're getting an extra 1.97 dps (13.3 damage every 6.732 secs) for .231 end sec (1.56 endurance in the same time period). That's not really a favorable trade off.

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Keep in mind that there is a recharge cap of +400%, or 1/5 the time. (A 100s recharge, f'rex, cannot go below 20s.)

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I believe Rachel and I both already addressed this. You know, 5 posts back.

Also, to address your comment as to how much recharge would actually affect powers within that time frame, check it.

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And 5 Seconds at 400% recharge drops a 25 second recharge power (KO Blow) down to a what recharge? 2, 3 seconds? I know a 48% recharge drops the recharge on KO Blow from 25 down to 16.89....

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Recharge time is equal to (original time)/(1 + recharge)

KO Blow (base 25 secs) with 48% +recharge would is reduced to 16.891 seconds (as you said). At recharge cap (400%), the recharge would be reduced to 5 seconds (25/(1+4.00) = 5). The problem with this, for such a short duration, is that the actual additional benefit is so minor. The only powers that would have any noticeable affect would be short recharge powers. Any leftover recharge is calculated by on a percentage basis (re: leftover buffed recharge in seconds/buffed recharge time*unbuffed recharge time = remaining recharge when the buff drops).

Because most players are already packing impressive amounts of +recharge via enhancements, set bonuses, and other powers, the actual benefit is going to be significantly less than 400% and the short duration of the buff is only going to affect "big" powers like Unstoppable (1000 sec recharge) isn't going to be that impressive.

Consider: Unstoppable slotted for 95% +recharge via enhancements and 50% from global benefits (Hasten? Wha?). The recharge would be reduced to 408.1 seconds. The recharge time while at capped recharge would be 250 seconds. To calculate the "real" recharge (assuming only a single application of the buff within the time frame), it's pretty simple. 245/250*408.1 = 399.9 seconds. That's an 8.2 second benefit. Not particularly impressive.

The only way to really eliminate the movement problems is to simply eliminate all movement and movement modifications from the arena or whatever environment it takes place in.

If the flag carrier is unaffected by movement impairing effects, it would create some situations in which some teams could simply drop the effects in the "run zone" to prevent the other team from catching their runner. I don't think that increasing survivability at all is a particularly good idea, not only because you can't increase hp to 5000 for any AT thanks to the cap, much less give non-Tanks/Brutes/EATs higher than 75% resistance. The only real "buff" that should affect the target should be a +res(stealth) buff (if it's possible) or a -stealth debuff if it isn't.

I'd agree with the carrier being affected by the "only affecting self" debuff (similar to Rest and PFF), though nothing else would really apply, imo. AT based survivability should matter when you're choosing a runner. Blasters and other ranged ATs are going to be better interceptors because they can blow away their targets (re: the flag carrier) from far away, which matters even more when movement is impaired. If Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers are better carriers simply due to their higher hit points and native defenses, all the better to make them useful. They're not going to do much good having dealing damage when they can't get to their opponents thanks to equal movement speed.

Of course, "hardy" AT usefulness in carrying is mitigated by the fact that it's possible for support ATs to buff someone completely to the gills and make them nearly as hard to kill as a normal support toon. Brutes, Tankers, and Scrappers would still be better in similar situations of buffnitude, but it's not to say that they'll be the only viable carriers (just as Scrappers, Brutes, and Tankers could be very dangerous interceptors if there are choke points, blind spots, or plenteous hiding places; Stalkers would excel at this). Kheldians and VEATs would have some very interesting applications, especially considering the VEATs ability to alter role very quickly.

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And while it might not be markedly different to you, Umbral, the single pool doing what would otherwise require 2 (or more) pools keeps me from having to -take- 2 pools, thus locking out other pools I might want and costing me more powers.

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And that's pretty much the only reason to put it in game, which isn't a very good reason at all.

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Haha! I knew you'd know the stats! Thanks for the tip on Honoree too, I'll skip him as well.

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It's not so much knowing the stats as it is knowing where to look for them.

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Shh! Don't tell them our secrets! We need to look like the sole holders of secret knowledge to maintain their respect and adoration!

Relic, first off, please learn to spell. Hooked on Phonics did not work for you.

Secondly, while I personally enjoy CTF in real life as well as in other video games, the highly variable nature of mobility in CoX would make CTF games less interesting than you might imagine. One of the basic hallmarks of CoX PvP is that, even with all of the nerfs to player mobility, it is much more kinetic and mobile than most other systems out there. The only way to really balance it out would be to have a no transport powers and no teleport tag activated for the zone and/or arena map automatically. It gets even worse whenever you start factoring in the ability for controllers and other debuff heavily characters to create zones of highly limited movement. Immobilizes (thanks to the mez tweaks) and -spd zones and effects (Siphon Speed, Quicksand, etc.) applied to the flag carrier would make it almost impossible to get away, creating an unfair tactical advantage to builds that are capable of such considering the importance of mobility to CTF games.

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Well... It fits the niche of 'Natural' travel power. It's Robin's Travel Power. As well as dozens of 'Street Level' heroes.

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So power pools should be made for specific origin niches? Once again, Robin most likely just has the Fitness and Leaping pools independent of the other. Adding a specific "Acrobatic" movement method doesn't add anything new to the game. You can move identically to the method you're suggesting simply by taking Hurdle and Combat Jumping.

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As for the Recharge cap being 400% I was well aware. The 1000% makes sure that you can't possibly be 'slowed' through the 5 second burst of recharge. Say: By player made NPCs with Carrion Creepers. Similar to the Knockback Set IO which gives a percentage chance of increasing your recharge by: 1000%

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For 5 seconds? What's the point, especially considering any activation time? 5 seconds of capped recharge every 2 minutes requiring activation is a minuscule benefit. The only powers that would get any real benefit would be attack powers that are already going to recharge in a second or 2 anyway.

By the way, the Force Feedback proc isn't +1000% recharge. It's +100% recharge. There isn't any precedent in-game for +recharge on that scale, not even in Adrenalin Boost (which is the largest player generated +rech buff, iirc, at +100%).

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As for what it can do that Leaping can't: Increase your recharge rates of powers. What can they do that fitness can't: Get you going -really- fast.

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The question that I posed is what does the power pool do that the combination of the other 2 pools doesn't already do in any noticeable manner. The amount of +recharge in the set is tiny. A 15% +recharge clone of Hasten and a power that grants capped recharge for all of 5 seconds every 2 minutes? That's not any marked increase in +recharge. That's less than an LotG +rech IO for most people.

How is your proposed acrobatic movement method different enough from the combination of the 2 pre-existing power pools Fitness and Leaping? It's not. It's the exact movement method accomplished by taking the small but cheap increases to horizontal movement. It's not markedly different.

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However a player -could- simply take this set as opposed to Fitness to get around. And with 2 toggles and 2 clicks it fits into the 'classic' setup for a travel pool.

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Actually, the 2 of the major travel power pools have 3 toggles and 1 click power (Leaping and Flight). Speed has 2 click powers and 2 toggles. Teleport has 4 click powers. There isn't any specific definition of a "classic" setup, and Teleport would probably be considered a distinct outlier considering.

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Thanks, very helpful.

As for this:

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Also, please don't identify yourself as a "healer" or fall under the false assumption that heals are the best form of team support available to a Defender.

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Don't recall doing that, but thanks for the reminder? Just wondering why some other folks' heal powers were stronger than mine.

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You identified yourself as a "lvl 46 healer" without any mention of power set or archetype (though some assumptions could be made concerning both).

Does it have to be an empath or even a character with a heal? If not, I totally call running this with my FF/Sonic fender. Just try to get hit with softcapped defenses and then some.

Also, should be assume Level 5 Difficulty or are you guys gonna make it pansy and run on Level 1?

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Freem! =-3

Anyone else?

-Rachel-

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How does it fulfill any role that Leaping + Fitness doesn't already fulfill? I don't see how it does.

In order to figure out how the powers compare numbers wise, you'd need to provide more info. You need to give Adrenal Boost (which probably needs a name change because of the similarity to Empathy:Adrenaline Boost) its duration to go with its recharge time to calculate up time. Combat Jumping costs .065 end/sec, not .03 (the cost is .0325 end every .5 seconds). The +recharge cap is only 400%, which means that Rush is going to be wasted, especially since you only want it to be a 5 second duration.

Personally, my biggest problem is that I don't see what it accomplishes honestly. You don't like having to take Fitness and Leaping in order to have an acrobatic character (which is what Leaping is supposed to signify anyway), is that it? Doesn't really seem like that big of an issue to me.

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weapon customization (wait, we got that one)

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BABs actually said that weapon customization wasn't all that hard. It was just a matter of removing the form of the sword from the power and replacing it with a variable costume slot option. It wasn't something that was made virtually impossible without hefty modification of the game engine.

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wings (wait, got that one too)

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Wings were simply an extension of caps and follow pretty much the same mechanics in game. They have a rest state, a jump state, a flight state, etc, and before you say that we got them in exactly the form people were asking, people were asking for wings to be a variant form of Flight. The devs gave a costume piece where power customization was asked for (which made more sense to me anyways).

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That being said, I've never seen it mentioned in the threads I've read, but hey I'll look anyway. 'Course, I'd still like a Super Cycle.

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I'm really curious how long you've been reading the forums then. At least once a month someone comes up with or asks for vehicles to be implemented without looking up any of the existing threads. I've seen 3 different vehicle threads at once on the same page of the Suggestions Forums.

Also, something to think about, what does adding vehicles do for the game that isn't already done with the transport powers in game? If they're that distinct, they're either going to be so bad that the only reason to take them is because you insist on having a vehicle (which is a waste of dev time because that's very little player benefit for a lot of work) or they're going to be better (which is a waste of previous dev time because people are only going to use the old trans powers if they refuse to use vehicles).

Honestly, if you'd done the search (and yes, you should have searched for "vehicles" because "Super-Cycle" is a vehicle no matter how you twist it), you would have seen this argument and the many others (most of them concerned with the horrible work:benefit ratio associated with designing them). There's a reason that "Search for similar threads and post there rather than creating a new post" is in the forum rules.

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I've slotted 5 slots to my healing powers, but I'm still not getting the same amount of healing as others I've seen in the game. With SO Enhancements, I get about 260+, and a little more than that with IO Enhancements on my lvl 46 healer. Some people are able to get 500-700+ heals. What enhancements are they using?

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What heals are you referring to them using? If you're using Healing Aura as your basis of comparison, that sounds about right. Twilight Grasp from Dark Miasma and Transfusion from Kinetics both heal for a significantly larger portion because they are tohit heals. Healing Aura, Radiant Aura and the non-tohit heals have a significantly lower base heal amount.

Twilight Grasp and Transfusion have a baseline heal effect for Defenders of 23.5% (238.8 at level 50). Healing Aura and Radiant Aura have a baseline heal effect of 13.2% (133.9 at level 50). Factoring in 95% +heal from enhancements, the numbers you're seeing are completely appropriate.

Also, please don't identify yourself as a "healer" or fall under the false assumption that heals are the best form of team support available to a Defender. Numbers have been done and, in 99% of the situations in which support is actually needed, buffs are better by a significant margin. Math supports this. If you're an Empathy Defender, learn to use Fortitude as often as possible on as many targets as possible. It's your real money maker.

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* hand snags the doritos and tosses a year of cat gurl kitty litter in* *portal closes*


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Is a "year" no longer just an increment of time? Is it now a measurement of mass, weight, and/or quantity? Or are the RPers just that incapable of using decent English?

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Is all that really nessasary outside of PVP?

IIRC even after The Crisis of Infinate Nerfs I still managed to solo the Praetorian Earth story arc with just SOs.

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IOs? No, not at all, but they're a virtual requisite for many of the other challenges that we Scrappers have invented for ourselves. Also, by IOs, I'm talking about set IOs. I view common IOs along the same line as I view SOs: for leveling, not for crazy challenges and hard core character design. There's just not much you can do with 'em.

Keep in mind that, thanks to how click oriented */regen has become that +recharge has become exceedingly important except for a few builds that instead focus on high levels of defense. Either way, the primary method for achieving optimum performance from a */regen is all about shrinking the ratio between the periods of high survivability that are attainable and the equally common periods of inferior survivability. Recharge is the most common method of doing this, but it's also possible to do so by simply increasing the baseline performance to such a degree that the click powers are less necessary (at which point it's not as necessary to have high recharge so that the click powers are always available).

("infinite" is spelled as such, as is "necessary" &gt;.&lt

I don't really agree with it because I don't really think it's necessary. It's not as if level 14 is really all that difficult to get to or that players even need a transport power. Changing the system like this would needlessly complicate it whenever the system already works fine.

It's not broke, so it shouldn't be fixed. And what you're suggesting isn't even a tune up.

If you're curious as to what you should aim for on IO set bonuses, */regen has 2 things that it loves beyond everything else: recharge and recharge.

When IO slotting a */regen, I've got 4 steps that I tell people to go through:

1. Get more recharge.
2. You still need more recharge. Get more recharge.
3. That's still not enough recharge. I told you, more recharge.
4. You've got how much recharge? Noice! Now you can start slotting for positional defense!

Because IOs have made recharge so much more variable between individual builds, you're also going to want to look into your attack string whenever you start building. */Regen is one of the nicer secondaries for this because you get significant defensive benefit to go along with all of the morbid amounts of +recharge that you need for many of the top tier attack strings. Kat/Regens generally tend to aim for enough recharge to have Gambler's Cut recharge within the animation time of any of their other attacks (Divine Avalanche, Golden Dragonfly, and Soaring Dragon are the 3 standard attacks used because they offer the best damage).

You're also going to want to invest in at least 1 Achilles' Heel proc for Gambler's Cut. It's not all that great for chewing through minions and other soft targets, but it will contribute more than any other single enhancement slot when you're fighting hard targets like AVs.

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Here's a question: Will I run into problems if I Exemplar down to run some of the lower level Task Forces? IIRC when I left there were some problems with IOs scaling down too much when you Exemplar, particularly the IO sets.

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Exemplaring does nothing to your slotting whatsoever. All you can lose when exemping down beyond the normal powers lost for dropping the levels is losing some of the set bonuses that you no longer qualify for (re: if you're too low to slot those IOs, you still get the enhancement benefit but not any set bonuses you may have). Procs and other special benefits of IOs will still remain no matter what.