Umbral

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I just checked it in-game. It does not give a bonus with no enemies around. I did it in the consignment house and saw no change in damage bonus or ToHit bonus, and the soul drain buff icon did not appear. The baseline buff, I believe, is similar to invulnerability's buff. It's better with one enemy around than it was before, but it does not activate unless there actually is another enemy around.

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That's funky. I specifically remember testing that out in the I13 beta and making sure it was still like that whenever I14 released.

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Or maybe it's the long-awaited Power Suppression in the consignment house?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nah.

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I'm guessing it was a stealth change of some kind during one of the post-I14 bug fix patches. I kinda want it back actually, even though it won't really affect me in PvE. It was nice to know that, even if I misclicked, I'd still get some benefit.

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the existence of Spines scrappers

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As I stated before, Spines Scrappers have been stated by Castle as only existing because they were there when he got here. Focus and Shockwave in Claws share this dubious attribution as well. He has specifically stated that he thinks that giving Scrappers ranged attacks in any primary powerset was a bad idea, but he's not going to change them because they're an integral part of the power sets at the moment. Spines/* and Claws/* shouldn't be used as evidence of this. They're specific and no-longer new-set-comparison viable outliers that you can expect there will not be any new sets based off of as long as Castle has the reigns on power design.

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As a math question: are the formulas for proc's used in attack chains a lot like interest (compounded in Werner's and simple in Umbral's)?

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Afaik, unless Werner is using the -res proc formula that we worked out a long time ago, we're using the same formula. Every other proc is simply a flat increase to average damage for a power.

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They could give MA some -resist >_>, be melee equivalent of sonic blast.

Kicking the enemy in the jewels, his damage tolerance goes down sharply.

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I see it as being more closely related to chance to stun personally but that's already the domain of Energy Melee. :P

I'd much rather they just gave it the "everything has a higher crit rate than it should" treatment. They already opened the door with Storm Kick. Why not just do it to all of them to make the DPS of the set overall more competitive. I'm reasonably sure there's been plenty of math to show that it underperforms at all levels, even with the Storm Kick improvements.

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I don't think that chain works with the 250% total recharge. KoB, unlike it's cousins in EM and SM, recharges in 25 seconds. At 250% recharge, that leaves a 10 second gap in between each KoB. (though you might have accounted for that, didn't actually try to reverse engineer your dps number)

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You're getting the recharge calculation wrong. 250% +recharge for KOB is 25/(1+2.5) = 7.14 seconds.

The attack string I've been able to come up with (no pools) is KOB>Hay>Punch>Jab>Hay>Punch>repe at. With Scrapper mods (re: 1.5 times as much damage), that's 595.8 unenhanced damage in 10.032 seconds. Assuming 95% +dam slotting and +175% +dam from Rage (175% uptime), that's 270% +dam. Before Rage crashing and Critical, that gives us 1608.66 damage. Including crits (8% crit assumed) gives us 1737.3528 damage. Rage crashing (no damage dealt) occurs for 20 seconds every 140 seconds (recharge time + activation time doubled, just like Billz did). That means that damage is only 6/7ths of that numbers, so we get 1489.16 damage over 10.032 seconds or 148.44 dps.

Now that I've actually crunched the numbers, I've honestly got to say that the only reason that SS is even remotely decent is because Rage is completely borked. Without Rage, that same attack string would only deal 125.07 dps (yes, Rage is a 20% overall increase in damage dealt whenever you're slotted). That just screams to me that SS needs to have some serious Castle review treatment, especially since Rage is pretty far down the list.

Of course, something to think about is that, with more recharge, this build is going to improve tremendously. At 300% +recharge, you're going to be able to remove the last Punch from the attack string which will improve it significantly. Jab and Punch are just... gah... The numbers made me hurt a bit on the inside. The base damage is makes me shudder to think about.

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Werner, even at 314% recharge and doing FU/Slash/Focus repeat, I'm only getting 157DPS.

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Are you sure the correct number of FU stacking is used?

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The appropriate stacking should be 3 FU for Focus and Slash and 2 for FU (252.5% uptime).

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Umbral, I would not bat an eye if brute mitigation caps were made identical to scrappers. I would, however, throw a rod if the devs decided to tone down fury so that brute damage was closer to tanker damage than scrapper damage.

And I won't be surprised to see a Gloom nerf in the near future.

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Personally, I think one or the other should happen. My personal preference would be for Scrappers to simply get a damage increase. Increase the Scrapper base scalar to 1.175 (that's a 5% increase from a scalar perspective!) and increase their damage cap to +450%. Of course, this goes hand in hand with increasing Blasters' damage cap to +450% to account for Defiance doing nothing in +dam situations. (Stalkers get to whine, they're still top when you consider their absurd crit capabilities on a large team and when initiating a fight, plus they've got better control capabilities than a Scrapper thanks to Assassin's strike's fear mechanic)

The logic behind both of these is pretty simple and follows the Brute balance mechanic: the +dam cap should be directly related to the inherent and +dam capability of an AT.

Of course, if you don't want to increase the damage dealing capabilities of Blasters and Scrappers, you could just drop the Brute +dam cap to +650% rather than +750% so that they'll never be able to deal more damage than an equally buffed Scrapper just like Scrappers can never be as survivable as a equally buffed Brute.

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Yeah. Y'all crunched numbers, and I skimmed it. I haven't cared much about the comparison in the past because I prefer blue side and don't PvP. But when Brutes come blue side, I'm going to care, and so should the devs.

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Redside v. Blueside AT comparison (which is a big interest of mine from a number crunching standpoint) has consistently shown a Redside advantage in pretty much every analysis I've done. The only AT that really did largely worse was the non-permadom Dominator, which, with the I15 Dom changes, is going to completely reverse that. The big thing that bothers me is that the redside AT are simply designed better and, thanks to that, get better numbers and operate better with intelligent players (which are painfully rare redside thanks to the kind of player that generally tends to flock to play the bad guys).

It doesn't help that the CoV developers refused to assign decent and consistent AT equivalences which would have made balance a much easier prospect.

I've seen some claims that Masterminds are the redside Tankers. This was only stated by the devs early in CoV's development and was abandoned partway through the design thanks to an inability to find a decent native method to control aggro. They've moved away significantly from that designed role in the intervening time period.

The worst culprit of this, though, is the Brute. They've been said to be by different devs at the same time the Tankers of CoV and the Scrappers of CoV. This is why they've got the survivability and aggro chops to Tank in a group (when they get buffs to overcome their lower base mitigation and take advantage of their higher caps) while simultaneously being capable of dealing damage equal to or better than a Scrapper (because, supposedly, the huge amounts of +dam required to beat out Scrappers is hard to get). They got buffed up to perform both roles without ever having to pay for it. Wonderful stuff there. Absolutely bloody wonderful balancing stuff.

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Personally, I'd for a primary that is going to work well with the blapper-friendly nature of */nrg. Boost Range is a bit of an oddball in my opinion, especially when you consider that the best reasons to take */nrg (power boost, bone crusher, and energy punch) are generally wasted whenever you're using a very ranged heavy primary like arch/* and spending a majority of your time at extended range. It's only real use as far as I'm concerned is PvP.

As to what I'd recommend, Fire/* for the sheer huge quantities of blappery death you can dish out and Elec/* for the incredible AoE blapping end draining chaos that will ensue when you start dropping in Power Boosted Short Circuits.

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I've always been interested in trying out a "blapper"

But I've never figured out what I need to do entirely.
Hwo does Fire blast make a good blapping set?
I know fireball has good aoe, and aim is always great. What else is important for a good fire/ blapper?

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Fire/* makes a good blapper because it's all about using the most absurdly high DPA attacks you can in as quick of succession as possible. Blaze, Flares, Energy Punch, and Bone Smasher are pretty much what you do. Plus, since Fire Ball is a targeted AoE rather than a cone, you can use it in melee without problem.

The entire idea behind blapping is that you're using your melee attacks just as much as your ranged attacks. This pretty much means that you're going to be in melee and using your ranged attacks in melee. Fire/* does it well because it just has awesome damage. Elec/* does it well because it's got Short Circuit and Ball Lightning, both of which do well in melee (1 of which requires it).

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How does 1 + 1 + 1 = 2? Absolute Amazement (Cobra Strike) + Hecatomb (Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Crane Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, Eagle's Claw) + Armageddon (Dragon's Tail) = 3 last time I checked.

That's actually on par with what Claws and Spines get and better than what every other primary gets. Claws gets Hecatomb, Armageddon, and Apocalypse. So does Spines. Every other primary only gets 2: Hecatomb and Apocalypse.

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You are right. Since I don't have room in my build for the mule power and since boxing provides the same thing and most of my builds have to take that I spaced.

Actually it's *4* since if you build an attack chain that doesn't use Crippling you can add in Gravitational Anchor.

*embarrassed*

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Gah! Curse me for forgetting the Immobilization IO sets! However, I wouldn't recommend slotting any of them (which is why I forgot them) because the powers they go into (Impale, Crippling Axe Kick, Midnight Grasp) are actual attacks that should be slotted as such rather than control powers that would actually see some real use out of the redzoned enhancement of immobilization.

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I only have one Brute at 50, and while I know anecdote isn't evidence, I had the same impression as you. It felt like I had more damage and was more survivable than my scrappers.

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Didn't we crunch some numbers in another thread that showed that in non-top end builds and while on optimal teams, that Brutes won out over Scrappers on damage on a pure scalar basis? There was a rather large sweet spot where Scrappers won, but it was only really in the top end IO build range IIRC.

It's nice to see that there are people agreeing with what I've been saying for more than 2 years now though.

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From what I understand. ALL the ATs were designed to be played solo all the way to 50. They just don't solo as well as the Scrapper. Also, just because you can play an AT solo, doesn't mean that you can solo everything in the game.

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All of the ATs and all power sets were designed to be playable from 1 to 50. This doesn't mean they'll be particularly good at it or do it particularly fast. Castle and multiple other devs have stated this as one of their basic balancing tenets. Capable of soloing. Not designed for soloing.

And, honestly, the Scrapper's role has changed a bit in the lifetime of the game. Way back when, the Scrapper was designed to be a soloing monster. That's why he got good damage (but less than the Blaster) and good defenses (but less than a Tanker). He didn't contribute as much on a team as either a Tanker or a Blaster, but he was designed not to.

Later on, many of us Scrappers threw a fit because Blasters got to deal their damage with the protection of range (and the lower damage of ranged attacks), better damage and and better AoE potential. There was very little reason to roll Scrapper unless you wanted to solo. This was when we got the very first inherent power: Critical hit. The devs gave Scrappers this to specify their role on groups: Boss killer. It was a slight damage buff over all but was most effective on nice hard targets that individuals needed greater survivability to stand toe-to-toe with.

There have been some other changes (Blaster hp increase to improve their solo capability, Defiance changes to improve ST damage and mez tolerance), which have blended their roles a bit more, but, as it stands, a Blaster and a Scrapper are pretty much on equal functional footing on a team. When you're looking for damage, you're no longer ignoring a Scrapper because a Blaster will contribute substantially more, and Blasters can actually solo reasonably well.

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Can someone show me how to figure out average DPS gain from the DR debuff procs? My brain has slipped back into lazy mode.

I'm really pondering this FU, Slash, Eviscerate with the two -DR procs.

If I go with the build I'm looking at right now, I'll have 256.7 recharge in Eviscerate which gives me a gapless chain and base 148.6 DPS not including the damage procs.

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The simple way is to calculate uptime and then multiply by effectiveness. The simple* formula is this:

(chance to proc) * (magnitude of proc) * (# of proc attempts) * (duration of proc) / (total activation time of attack string) = total contribution

Take this number, add 1, and then multiply by the damage dealt by the attack string. Something to keep in mind is that the real effect will actually be lower. The procs don't stack with themselves (AH does not stack with AH, Glad does not stack with Glad, AH and Glad do stack), so there will actually be a loss in real effect whenever you have a proc go off, but it should be close enough unless there are so many procs that you approach 100% up time.

*I say simple because it doesn't discount redundant procs; I lost the notes I had the intense calculations for AH uptime based on number of procs per 10 second period that Werner and I banged out over the forums last year and I'm too lazy redo them now.

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~ Can only slot 2 purple sets. Martial Arts doesn't have enough variety to get the third and fourth purple set. Claws and Spines, for example, can slot 4 purple sets.

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How does 1 + 1 + 1 = 2? Absolute Amazement (Cobra Strike) + Hecatomb (Thunder Kick, Storm Kick, Crane Kick, Crippling Axe Kick, Eagle's Claw) + Armageddon (Dragon's Tail) = 3 last time I checked.

That's actually on par with what Claws and Spines get and better than what every other primary gets. Claws gets Hecatomb, Armageddon, and Apocalypse. So does Spines. Every other primary only gets 2: Hecatomb and Apocalypse.

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that SS is too good for scrappers is complete BS

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Yup.

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Actually, that doesn't really hold. The reason that Brutes are capable of doing so much damage is because they're capable of generating a large amount of +dam thanks to native benefits (Fury) which counteracts their lower +dam modifier and scalar. Rage means less to a Brute because, adding an extra 160% +dam means less when you're already packing 95% from enhancements and 180% from Fury. SS for Scrappers would be utterly borked because, rather than having an increase from 275% to 435%, it would have an increase of 95% exclusively from enhancements to 295% from Rage plus enhancements.

Brutes != Scrappers

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Neither of these will be as good at the functions as something dedicated, and I suggest that there's a fair, interesting and valid place for an assault/defence armor AT, and lots of concepts to go with them, from though clearly there is no necessity for one.

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If you want an "assault/defense" AT, make a scrapper that's either claws/* or spines/*. Both of them have an excellent blend of ranged, AoE, and melee damage, though, they pay for it by being lower damage than every other scrapper primary (we has numbers to demonstrate it too!).

As for making an AT that is, by definition, Assault/Defense, I doubt it would happen to such a degree that those who demand it would like it. Either the damage modifiers would be so low as to make the AT undesirable as a damage dealer (and would be dangerously close to the Scrappers mentioned earlier, which Castle has already said he would never put in game with ranged attacks if he had the choice) or the defensive modifiers would be so low as to make the AT much less survivable than many players would expect. Assault/Defense is going to hit the same "brick wall o' not gonna happen like you want it to" as Ranged/Defense concepts because of the Tankmage issue.

An Assault/Pet set is much more likely to happen, though, and would actually generate some interested play styles, especially if the pets were primarily support based.

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If you want tank damage to be higher so that they kill faster, fine, let's do it. But you have to give up an equal amount of mitigation to get it.

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Actually, I don't believe he's asked for an increase in Tanker damage anywhere. He's asked for a strange and roundabout method to give tankers an extra 40% endurance efficiency to bring the end DPE of their attacks to Scrapper levels.

He's referring to mitigation capability and the lack of risk in solo situations.

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I was also surprised to see so much Brutin on the top half of the list. Apparently Gloom is REALLY good.

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Sadly enough, I'm not surprised in the least. The devs love Brutes.

I just remembered, doesn't the Crab Spider VEATs already do this to some degree? I realize they've only got the single pet power, but they already accomplish the Assault/Pet+Debuff role to some degree, don't they?

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Why would you skip Eagle Claw on MA? EC, Storm, CK, CAK or something like that?

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DPA and animation time

Thunder Kick does 54.7 DPA over 1.056 seconds.
Storm Kick does 97.7 DPA over 1.056 seconds.
Crane Kick does 73.0 DPA over 1.848 seconds.
Crippling Axe Kick does 61.1 DPA over 1.848 seconds.
Eagle's Claw does 59.2 DPA over 2.772 seconds.

Eagles Claw does less damage than the other 3 attacks while up nearly 2 attacks worth of animation time. It's better to get in Thunder Kick and Crane Kick than it is to get in Eagle's Claw and nearly as good to get in a Thunder Kick and Crippling Axe Kick as well.

Thunder + Crippling Axe = 66.4 DPA over 2.904 seconds.
Thunder + Crane = 58.8 DPA over 2.904 seconds.

Because Eagle's Claw takes so long and is on such a long recharge, it also means that it will take longer for it to recharge (meaning you can't have the turbo fast attack chains that do loads of damage) and that you will be able to fit in fewer other attacks.

Personally, I'd for a primary that is going to work well with the blapper-friendly nature of */nrg. Boost Range is a bit of an oddball in my opinion, especially when you consider that the best reasons to take */nrg (power boost, bone crusher, and energy punch) are generally wasted whenever you're using a very ranged heavy primary like arch/* and spending a majority of your time at extended range. It's only real use as far as I'm concerned is PvP.

As to what I'd recommend, Fire/* for the sheer huge quantities of blappery death you can dish out and Elec/* for the incredible AoE blapping end draining chaos that will ensue when you start dropping in Power Boosted Short Circuits.

You know what I really want? The 106 non-AE souvenirs I've got blueside to mean something, aside from a difficult to prove and largely meaningless method of epeen comparison.

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I just checked it in-game. It does not give a bonus with no enemies around. I did it in the consignment house and saw no change in damage bonus or ToHit bonus, and the soul drain buff icon did not appear. The baseline buff, I believe, is similar to invulnerability's buff. It's better with one enemy around than it was before, but it does not activate unless there actually is another enemy around.

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That's funky. I specifically remember testing that out in the I13 beta and making sure it was still like that whenever I14 released.

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I'm pretty sure soul drain doesn't work with zero enemies around... I have damage bonus on my combat monitor on my DM/shield and sometimes when I miss an entire mob, I don't see any increase in damage bonus.

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It does. I know this for a fact. There is a 50% +dam 10% +tohit that you get no matter if you hit a target or not. Each target that you hit grants you an additional 10% +dam and 2% +tohit. If you miss everyone, you'll get a smaller benefit, but you'll still get some.

The big reason this was done to address the uselessness of the old Soul Drain in PvP (when you didn't have targets to saturate it) and when fighting a small number of targets (re: solo or fighting an AV). In both of those situations it was largely useless, so Castle gave it a baseline buff so that, even if you used it with no one around, you'd still get something.