Umbral

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A pbaoe knockdown power (probably a click, not a toggle) would be great, as would a toggle slow. But TK is also making things *not* move, with your mind. Think of Neo, or Sylar, or Peter stopping bullets telekinetically.

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That would still be more akin +def rather than +res because, if you actually stop it, you're not getting hit by it at all. It might be an interesting variation to make 2 of the click sets that utility the 2 traditional damage mitigation methods.

The problem with making a set that is "Psychic Armor" is that you can explain the effects of a set however you choose. If you make an */SD scrapper and choose one of the less visible shields (Dark shield works well) and change the color to an approximation of CoX "Psychic Magenta", you can easily get something close to a Psychic Armor set.

The explanation of a power set means almost nothing compared to the visual and gameplay effects. The backstory for my DM/Regen scrapper is that the black fuzz around his hands is actually aggressive nanofluid that breaks down anything it touches. It's got nothing to do with the netherworld.

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Which Will Power power grants Def debuff resistance?

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Heightened Senses, all 17.3% worth. (Tankers is 21.625%.)

I tested it a while back, single attacks from Cims have a debuff value of 10% (screenshot). So if you get hit twice (-20%) it will shave 3.46% off it. Laughable. :P

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Not really laughable when you consider that it means that you're getting hit 7% less, even after those 2 debuffs.

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Ok I reread it and _Mojo_ is right and here is why.

first you say

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A skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */regen.

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So A good /WP is as good a and bad /Regen then you say.

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An unskilled */wp will generally survive longer than an unskilled */regen.

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so and bad /WP will survive more then and Bad /Regen, but a good /WP will live just as long?

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A skilled */regen will survive about as long, if not longer, than an equally skilled */wp.

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so a good regen will be just as good but if not better then a good willpower.

what doesn't make sense is you just said that a a
good Willpower player=Bad regen player
Bad Willpower player >Bad regen player
Good Willpower player=or< Good regen Player
How does a good willpwer player live just as long as a bad regen player when a Bad willpower player will live longer that is why it doesn't make sense.

What I think you mean to say was a skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */Wp.

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Gah >.< Meant that second one as */wp. Going back to fix it now. I read it differently because that's what it said in my head.

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I base this alot of this on ITF runs mind you.

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Which disproportionately favors */WP because it's got def debuff resistance and significantly higher levels of lethal resist.

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What?

Why should letha resitance make a difference? Isn't Regnerations mitigation indescrimante?

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*/Regen's mitigation is indiscriminate (or, less so than normal), but */wp's isn't, which means that it gets more effect from some types than others. That's like saying that */invuln is king of the secondaries but only using s/l damage to determine it. The big difference in performance on the ITF though is */regen's lack of debuff resistance (/shakefist at Castle).

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I base this alot of this on ITF runs mind you.

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Which disproportionately favors */WP because it's got def debuff resistance and significantly higher levels of lethal resist.

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Those two lines are referring to different things. Reread what you wrote, it literally doesn't make sense.

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I did, and it makes perfect sense. The entire point is that */regen is a highly skill responsive set. */WP isn't. */WP performs pretty much the same whether you're incredibly good with it or mediocre. */Regen generates incredible gaps in performance depending on whether you've got the skills and timing to back it up or not. There isn't any logical flaw in the original statement.

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That'd do it. I know that the only other famed */regen I know of that uses DP in a similar manner (re: actually letting it fall on a regular basis), Werner, is a Kat/Regen. DA/Parry allow for some very different set ups, but I wouldn't recommend a play style like that to anyone that wasn't also a Kat/regen or BS/Regen because no other set provides the same levels of additional defense as DA/Parry cane.

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Dark Melee may not provide "Defense" per se, but it does have the option of stacking -tohit debuffs on the target which can amount to much the same thing.

Perhaps not to the same degree that Broadsword and Katana can (I don't know, never having played those sets) as I think their +def buff works against all incoming melee attacks but against a single target like a Boss or AV the stacking -tohit debuff from DM does become noticeable.

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DM will only provide the -tohit against a single target (5 at most with Shadow Maul) but it still doesn't stack up to DA/Parry. It's 15% +def(melee/lethal) and easily stackable 3 times. No other Scrapper attack can provide the same degree of crazy defense.

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That logic went wrong somewhere.

And I've personally never been outlasted by a anything/regen, but that's just me, I'm a crazy kat/wp.

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You've obviously never played with a crazy good, equally well built Kat/Regen. I routinely outlast Dark/WP by a long margin, even when they're built to the brim like myself.

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There are no bad scrapper powersets, primary or secondary, and no bad scrapper powerset combinations.

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Except */Dark.

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Amazing how you can be so wrong... */Dark is actually remarkably powerful.

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EDIT: Just logged in to see what could be causing the disconnect. I recall now. BS/Regen which is what my Regen is, is soft-capped easily because of Parry to melee/lethal. Thus making it much less necessary for me to depend on set bonuses for most of the things I do.

So I'm not going to disagree with your assessment, but I'll say that it's not really relevant to my character's playstyle.

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That'd do it. I know that the only other famed */regen I know of that uses DP in a similar manner (re: actually letting it fall on a regular basis), Werner, is a Kat/Regen. DA/Parry allow for some very different set ups, but I wouldn't recommend a play style like that to anyone that wasn't also a Kat/regen or BS/Regen because no other set provides the same levels of additional defense as DA/Parry cane.

*/Regen has lower baseline performance but much better peak performance (and more ways to achieve this peak) whereas */wp just has good baseline performance and not much variation.

A skilled */regen player will pretty much always survive longer than an unskilled */regen. A skilled */wp is going to survive about the same time as an unskilled */wp. An unskilled */wp will generally survive longer than an unskilled */regen. A skilled */regen will survive about as long, if not longer, than an equally skilled */wp. Of course, this assumes that the primaries for all of them are the same and that the budget for the builds is roughly similar.

editted to correct for a typo

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Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency.

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I didn't say they're not related. I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is. A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is. If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.

People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it. Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past. He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it. Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later. That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.

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armor to go with it or no?

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I wouldn't make a Psychic Armor set just because we've already got Willpower which covers that niche very nicely.

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MG need to recharge in 4.488
SL need to recharge in 4.62
Smite need to recharge in 2.112

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The actual amount of required +recharge for each of them is...

((base recharge)/(required recharge)) - 1

Smite: 6/2.112 - 1 = 184%
MG: 15/4.488 - 1 = 234%
Siphon: 10/4.62 - 1 = 116%

You can generally get 95% from slotting and 70% from Hasten (when it's up), so you'd need 19% global recharge for Smite, 69% for MG, and none for Siphon Life.

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Secondly, stuns and holds are only slightly less situational than knockbacks, but that's because they're completely different effects. You can't compare them side to side.


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Yes you can compare them, because KB falls into the mez catagory. Because KB is more of a situational power, it makes it worse than stun and hold. However, I'm not saying they should remove the KB from the power, but add more damage to it.

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And I'm saying that they already gave out a load of other benefits to the power already to counteract the decreased effectiveness of holds and stuns as compared to KB where mitigation is concerned.

The point I was trying to get across was that you can't directly say, with any conviction, that KB is this much worse than holds or stuns because they operate in completely different manners. Stuns, Holds, Sleeps, and the other "traditional" mez effects can be compared to each other with relative ease. Mag determines what you can affect and duration is duration. Mag for KB is both and a higher KB doesn't actually guarantee a similarly large increase in mitigation of the target.

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While it is important to compare those in the same sets, it is also important to compare primaries and secondaries as I did in an above post. As I have stated, there are numerous of examples where primary and secondary powers are similar in sets, and they generally fall anywhere from 0 to 2 tiers away from each other.

A 4 tier spread IMO is to much for powers that do the same damage, and secondary effect between a primary and a secondary power pool. This is the only two powers when compared are that much of a spread in tiers between a primary and a secondary that I know of.

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The problem with what you did there is you specifically brought up the weird and funky powers from those sets. How are you even comparing Lightning Clap and OG? They're not even remotely close to being related to one another for comparison's sake. You might as well compare Storm Kick to Fast Healing for all that comparison is appropriate.

Tier has nothing to do with a power's importance or potency. Knockout Blow from Super Strength is the same comparative value as a normal tier 9, but it's a tier 6. The same with Clobber. The only consideration for what tier a power gets to the player is how soon the player gets it. A tier 9 doesn't have to be the strongest power a player gets or even the most important. A tier 1 doesn't have to be (and often isn't) the weakest power. Just because you can't comprehend this basic concept doesn't mean that it's a viable train of logic.

Think of it this way: Storm Kick (tier 1) is loads better than Eagles Claw (tier 9) from a functional standpoint. It's got better DPA, better recharge, and better DPE. All Eagles Claw gets is a 4.768 second mag 3 stun. Does a ridiculously short stun balance out with everything that Storm Kick has, especially if you "factor in" that Stork Kick is a tier 1 power?

The only thing that tier affects is how early a player gets it. If a power set gets a control power earlier than others, it means nothing except that the set gets the control power earlier and whatever other powers later. It means nothing where game balance is concerned, and we have this from Castle.

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Umbral in your build you had Health, Stamina, and Drain Psyche, wouldn't drain psyche be enough.

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It could be (emphasis on could), but the OP asked for Stamina.

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Actually, he said that Stamina is not a must. So you could drop it.

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Eh, I saw an implication that he would prefer to have it if possible, but it wasn't a requirement. With the flight pool, melee defense wouldn't really be needed either, but that was asked for (and is probably the hardest thing to pack in there).

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1) for all situations, the effectiveness of Holds can be substitued for the effectiveness of knockbacks (true/false)

2) for all situations, the effectiveness of knockbacks can be substitued for the effectiveness of holds (true/false)

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I'm trying to figure out what you're trying to get across here. Are you trying to say that Holds are better than knockback, especially since you use "all situations" both times? A Knockback has a number of situations that a hold is inferior for. Knockbacks, because they're higher magnitude than any other effect, affect more targets than any other status effect with a single application. Blasters can't hold a boss in a single go, but they're more than capable of knocking one back in a single go. Knockbacks are also more effective when in the right hands for enemy placement. You can only hold someone in a specific place with a Hold. With a KB, you can put them wherever you want (if you're intelligent about it).

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The reason I bring this up, is if Power Push were a hold or a stun, it would be enough to justify that it's a tier 7, and force bolt is a tier 3. Knockback IMO is a situational (yet fun) secondary effect to play with. Stuns and holds are an all the time power.

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First off, what tier a power is has nothing to do with the potency of the power. All it does is affect when you get it. The same goes for whether a set is specified as being the primary or secondary. Castle as told us more than once that tier has nothing to do with potency.

Secondly, stuns and holds are only slightly less situational than knockbacks, but that's because they're completely different effects. You can't compare them side to side.

Lastly, if you're talking about Power Push being weak, I invite you to actually consider all of the other attributes of the powers you're comparing.

Power Push recharges in 8 seconds. That's the fastest of the ranged "control" powers. Freeze ray and Tesla Cage are both 10 seconds. Stunning Shot, Beanbag, Screech, and Scramble Thoughts are all on 20 seconds timers.

Power Push has a .268 damage scalar. Stunning Shot is .25. Beanbag is .2. Tesla Cage is .15. Freeze Ray is .1. Scramble Thoughts is .25. Screech is .2.

Power push has a base accuracy of 1.4. Stunning Shot is 1.155. Beanbag is 1.05. Tesla Cage, Freeze Ray, Scramble Thoughts, and Screech are all 1.

Power Push activates in 1.32 seconds (Arcanatime). Stunning Shot (1.98), Tesla Cage (2.376), Scramble Thoughts (3.168), and Screech (1.716) have higher (sometime much higher) activation times. Beanbag (1.056) and Freeze Ray (1.188) are the only 2 that beat Power Push, but they pay for that by having worse damage.

Power Push has a range of 70'. Scramble Thoughts is the only power with better at 80', but that's part of Psychic Blast's schtick. All of the other are stuck with a range of 60'.

So... Power Push is better than pretty much any other control power, except that it uses a ridiculously huge amount of +KB rather than a "traditional" mez effect. I'd honestly say that's a reasonable trade, but you wouldn't. You don't really see anything except for the KB v. hold/stun issue.

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Hell, while you're brainstorming gimme Psionic melee too!

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I already did this one around 9 months ago I believe, and it was more a hashing of theme than any specific numbers. I made 2 Psionic Melee powersets. One utilized a blade of psychic energy (my personal preference), though it wasn't a drawn weapon. You essentially created the weapon as you needed it and varied between having a single blade and having 2 blades (or even more) through the various powers. The other took a hint from the existing melee psionic attacks (Mind Probe, Telekinetic Thrust). The idea behind these was that you were just doing melee attacks with the additional benefit of tearing your opponents mind apart as well. The only real difference between the 2 would be that the first is psi/lethal and the second is psi/smashing. The side effect would probably be -recharge without -move.

DPA would be pretty standard imo (~65-70 for the Light Attacks, 80-90 for the Heavy Hitters). The secondary effect would be -30% for 6-12 seconds (depending on recharge). Utility power mez effects would all last 15 seconds and be mag 3.


Psionic Melee:
Light Attack 1, Mind Probe - Ripped from Blasters and renumbered
Light Attack 2, Telekinetic Punch - Tweaked Telekinetic Thrust, KU instead of KB and higher damage
Heavy Hitter 1, Rend Consciousness - think Hand Clap without being an AoE and a purple aura around the hands
Heavy Hitter 2, Detonate Thought - slowly advance one hand until it's fully extended and then pull it back quickly (at which point the damage happens), big knockup for visual effect
Utility 1, Microcosm - ST hold, minor DoT
Utility 2, Bend Mind - ST confuse, no damage
Confront, Confront - pretty basic
Build Up, Concentration - identical to the usual
AoE, Psychic Shockwave - taken from Blasters and renumbered for Scraps

Psionic Blades: all blades point out from the fist in line with the forearm
Light Attack 1, Monoblade - generate a single blade in either hand and stab the target (punch animation)
Light Attack 2, Quickblade - generate a single blade in either hand and slash the target (backhand animation)
Heavy Hitter 1, Frenzyblades - generate a blade in each hand and go to town on the target
Heavy Hitter 2, Psycheblade - spend a small time generating a larger, swirlier blade and then plunge it into the target (thin cone like GC and HS)
AoE 1, Manyblades - punch downwards creating a series of blades around the user exploding outwards (purple Spine Burst with different animation)
AoE 2, Scatterblade - generate 1 blade and sweep it across the group in a wide arc (150-180*)
Confront -
Build Up, Concentration -
Utility, Mourneblade - low damage, ST hold

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I don't believe nobody's done this yet, but in a vaccum wouldn't robots or zombies be best because they don't explosively decompress and die?

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Lavitae already did it, first page, seventh post.

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I didn't plan it out tho. thats the problem. do i rebuild it in mids first then transfer?

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Yes. You probably want to save the build first though, so you don't have to rebuild it again.

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I've seen many of your posts Umbral, and ive been around since early days, but forgive a fool for not knowing how to post my build. I can tell you what i have, tho it would seem long and without bonuses
I do have mids but don't know how to copy my build there and then bring it here, i'm computer illeterate that way

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Get into Mids and open your build with this window still open. Under the Import/Export tab of the Mids menu on the top of the window, you'll find Short Forum Export. Select "Light Blue (US)" under color scheme (or any of the color schemes with the US tag), "Official Forums (UBB.threads)" under formatting code type, and then click "Export Now". Switch back to whatever you're using to check the forums. Scroll down to near the very bottom of the page where it says "Quick Reply". Either right click over the area and select "Paste" or hit "Ctrl + V". This will put your build (which will most likely look like a bunch of gibberish) into the posting area. Post as normal.

Mind posting your build so that we can see what you've already taken?

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For your utility power, maybe a toggle that debuffs damage resistance point-blank like Disruption Field? I think that would be a nice offensive power to add.

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I think that would work better as a thematic replacement for Build Up, actually. A 120 sec recharge, 12' radius, 360* AoE, 15 sec 75% res debuff.

The utility would need to be some kind of thematic defensive ability, like a control power or self buff. I was thinking of a stun, but that's pretty much stealing from Energy Melee and Martial Arts. A better option might be a high mag, AoE knockup that deals no damage but has a large radius. Possibly a point blank variant of Earthquake without the acc or def debuff but on a shorter timer.

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While the usefulness of WoC is somewhat debateable it makes a great place to get +4% Recovery, +4% Damage, +10% Recharge, and 5% Ranged/2.5% Energy/Negative which is greatly helpful to the purpose of this contest. Also its a dirt cheap purple set too.

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Well, of course. Do people take WoC for any reason other than being able to slot the purple set with the best set bonuses in the game?

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*armor*
I would like to see a low mag pbaoe earthquake toggle. and add minor smash dmg. (like a super mini liquefy)

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That might be an interesting thing to see actually. Something like a small chance for knockup on anyone nearby. I don't think the smash damage would make much sense though. Just knocking someones feet out from under them wouldn't really hurt them noticeably. Might be an interesting mechanic for a Taunt aura.

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I would also love to see a move that pulls mobs around u. ( like sucking people in) sorta like an anti- 'handclap'

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Castle has stated that it's actually impossible to have an effect like this with the current engine. The powers that are supposed to have effects like this (re: Omega Maneuver) simply taunt all enemies nearby in order to get them to approach.