Umbral

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eh..if brutes are so hot why are there still far more people playing scrappers?

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Because there are far more people playing blueside than redside maybe?

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It sounds like a respec will be needed soon, but I just went with my old standard of get stamina as quick as possible, but other then that I had no plan or build in mind. I just noticed as I fight more bosses that their alphas tear into my little wp scrapper.

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Sounds like you need to actually check to see what powers your secondary actually has before you start defaulting to basic strategies. QR is bigger than Stamina. RttC is retardedly awesome (just like every scrapper level 16 power). People really need to actually learn the power sets.

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But some people want to just play and figure it out as the go. I'm regretting that I asked.

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Considering that you're asking what you need to do to deal with bosses and you're not even using the tools at your disposal, I'm amused that you think it's our fault. It's like asking why you're dieing because you took the fighting pool rather than anything from your secondary.

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It sounds like a respec will be needed soon, but I just went with my old standard of get stamina as quick as possible, but other then that I had no plan or build in mind. I just noticed as I fight more bosses that their alphas tear into my little wp scrapper.

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Sounds like you need to actually check to see what powers your secondary actually has before you start defaulting to basic strategies. QR is bigger than Stamina. RttC is retardedly awesome (just like every scrapper level 16 power). People really need to actually learn the power sets.

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I mostly run solo unyielding missions. I'm not talking about an oj boss standing all alone.

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Beat it up first? Everything else around you should be there to fuel RttC.

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*ahem* still one more run there lieran. mine. and you guys weren't trying to die on *YOUR* run

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And it wasn't an ITF

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So I'm giving up trying to convince him, cause it will never happen.

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If you actually managed to get any evidence to support your hypothesis that wasn't quite so easy to disprove you might actually be able to.

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I came to this forum to seek input rather than just outright delete the character and chalk it up to another bad experience. Then I found this thread saying how awesome not only dark armor, but claws/DA gets. So tell me, when does it stop sucking so horribly? I've played Doms with better survivability so far.

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You only got to level 9 and you're complaining about lacking survivability? It won't even get close to tolerable until 22 and SOs, just like for every Scrapper.

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Have they made any significant changes to your origin in that does it have any effect on your character other than your minor starting power? I left the game around issue 4 and I am back now.

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No. And all is as it should be. Origin should be the exclusive domain of character concept, not character power.

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So the work it would take is an unknown quantity for all of us, all we have are our assumptions. What's really debatable at this point is the value of such a system in the game, so let's focus on that.

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Actually, what's debatable is the cost:benefit ratio of the game, which is actually going to determine it's cost. Positron has already said that it's pretty much a moot point because it's too expensive to make appropriately and won't pay out because people are playing a super hero game, not a vehicle simulator.

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The actual amount of required +recharge for each of them is...

((base recharge)/(required recharge)) - 1

Smite: 6/2.112 - 1 = 184%
MG: 15/4.488 - 1 = 234%
Siphon: 10/4.62 - 1 = 116%

You can generally get 95% from slotting and 70% from Hasten (when it's up), so you'd need 19% global recharge for Smite, 69% for MG, and none for Siphon Life.

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Making the switch to this chain from the buzz saw shouldn't be an issue, correct? Or will I need to adjust my global. I have all of the single target attacks 5 slotted with CI only leaving out the acc/dmg/end, 3 lotgs and 2 DW sets in recon and DP. And hasten of course. This is on my dark/regen. I figured it would be easier to figure out on this one first then I'd work on my dark/wp scrapper and invul/dark tank. I think the tank would be the trickiest.

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Well let's see...

If you've got CI slotted as such, that's 68.9% +rech from slotting. 5% +rech set bonuses (3 from CI and 2 from DW) is another 25%. 3 LotG is 22.5% +rech. Hasten will give you 70%. That all totals up to 186.4, so you're gonna need to get more, at least for MG. The first thing would be for you to put a 6th slot in it for a lvl 50 common Recharge IO, which will give you 29.8% of the +rech you need. You still need another 17.8 from global sources, so you'll have to work in some other +rech set bonuses (Absolute Amazement, Hecatomb, more LotG).

Let's check your lauded comparisons...

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Brute:
Electrical Melee: Lightning Clap -> Dark Armor: Oppressive Gloom
Lightning Clap is tier 8, deals damage, and has a long recharge
Opressive Gloom is tier 8, a stun toggle, but deals damage to the user.
These are balanced.

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Thunder Clap is a mag 2 stun with a 50% chance to add another mag 1 to that. It's got a 9.536 sec duration and a 30 sec recharge time. It's also got a 5.193 mag knockback attached to it (making it a little less useful to those in melee, especially considering it's an PbAoE). It also costs a whopping 13 endurance. Something else to consider: base accuracy of .8. To make it close to perma and reasonably useful, you're best path is to put in 3 stun enhancements (18.5952 sec duration), 2 recharge (down to 18.75 seconds), and slot an accuracy in there. Hopefully you've got more accuracy to stack on to it because 1.064 enhanced accuracy isn't particularly stellar, especially when you're fighting higher level enemies. The other problem is that it's also got that Knockback, which isn't really considered to be an upside for melee PbAoEs...

Oppressive Gloom is a .078 end/sec toggle that deals virtually no damage to the user (2 dps is less than base regen). It's perma right out of the box and has a base accuracy of 1. The duration is nearly 3.5 times the activation time, so it's already got a 357.6% uptime. The only slotting it needs to be perma and useful is the base slot for accuracy. Even better, you have to miss three times for the enemy to actually drop out of the stun.

See what I mean? Those powers are only similar insofar as they're the same tier and they stun. Everything else is completely different.

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Many blaster primaries: Aim -> Devices: Targeting Drone
Aim is the same across most blaster primaries, either tier 4, 5, or 6 and does the same in each set. 37.5% to hit base and 62.5% damage bonus.
Targetting Drone is tier 4, and inceases To hit by 13.875%. It also increases perception and resistance to debuff and it's a toggle.
I have a fire/dev blaster, and the damage increase on Aim is a huge bonus, and because Targetting Drone offers less ACC and no damage buff and is a toggle, I feel it's balanced.

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This one is just funny. You're completely ignoring that Targetting Drone is actually a replacement for Build Up, which, considering the alpha strike capabilities and +dam it provide rather than mostly redundant +tohit, is easily considered the better of the two powers. Suggesting that Targetting Drone and Aim are balanced against each other is pretty funny, unless you consider up how Build Up and Aim are balanced against each other and Targetting Drone is balanced against Build Up (the power it's actually replacing).

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Controller
Earth: Quicksand -> Trick Arrow: Glue Arrow

These do the same thing, quicksand is tier 3 and glue arrow is tier 4. These, IMO, should be tweeked, but they are no where near how bad force bolt and power push are. I do understand the reason Quicksand is tier 4 (hold, immob, aoe immob are first three in the majority of hold sets), but I would cut 10-20 seconds from glue arrow's recharge, or swap glue arrow to tier 4 and make ice arrow tier 3.
Overall, they are only seperated by 1 tier so this example is close to balanced IMO.

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They're pretty similar, except that Quicksand has a huge -def debuff (25%) and Glue Arrow has standard grade -recharge (20%). You're also brushing off the, as intended, recharge time that's twice as high for Glue Arrow and the fact that Quicksand lasts 50% longer. Are you still so sure they're balanced? Quicksand recharges twice as fast, has a larger and more significant debuff and lasts 50% longer. Still determined that they're balanced against each other?

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Defender:
Storm Summoning: Thunder Clap -> Dark Blast: Dark Pit
Thunder clap is tier 7, and Dark Pit is tier 4, and both powers cause stun. Dark Pit has a recharge of 60 seconds, and stuns for 11.92 seconds, and Thunder clap has a recharge of 45 seconds and stuns for 14.9 seconds. Obviously, Thunder clap is the better of the two because of the shorter recharge, and longer stun duration, so it's balanced.

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You also missed that Dark Pit has a max number of targets of 10 and Thunder Clap has a max number of targets of 4, Dark Pit costs 13 endurance whereas Thunder Clap costs 10.4, and Thunder Clap doesn't have a type based defense (which is actually a huge advantage).

The problem with the 4 (of your 6 originals) are actually better evidence of my position than yours. Of course, you're not going to concede this because you're purposefully oblivious to all of the points I make.

OG is better at protection via mez than Thunder Clap. OG has a clear advantage, not just in that it's more accurate, but also that it's got better uptime and upkeep advantages while simultaneously being cheaper. They're not balanced against each other.

Aim and Targeting Drone are only balanced because the power that the power that Targeting Drone replaces is balanced against Aim, which you conveniently don't mention. Plus, you use allegorical evidence rather than any actual verifiable comparison to determine equality, which completely ignores the fact that Targeting Drone has a higher end cost, doesn't provide any of the substantial +dam that Aim does, and the only benefits are +per and +res(tohit), both of which are only situationally useful and do nothing to account for the huge +dam disparity.

Quicksand and Glue Arrow are, as I more than adequately pointed out, not even remotely balanced against each other. Quicksand is equivalent in move debuff, more powerful in specific debuff, recharging significantly faster, and lasting significantly longer. That's not balanced unless you've got some very strange views on balance.

You readily admit that Thunder Clap and Dark Pit are imbalanced, and you attribute this to the tier difference, though you completely ignore the fact that the primary/secondary disparity could actually be the culprit. You automatically made the assumption that the discrepancy is a result of tier disparity. If anything, it should have made you look for a better example rather than trying to flimsily make it seem like a valid piece of evidence.

It's even worse that you didn't even know about the powers I mentioned, which are very obvious in their comparative functionality. That is, if you actually know about how the game works and how those powers are used and designed to be used, which you've shown a woeful lack of expertise in.

I've gotten credited with knowing about game balance because I've actually done the work to check it out. People can't poke holes in my reasoning when they actually listen to me rather than automatically assuming their own correctness and ignoring all evidence to the contrary. I debate people on their own terms and even try to make sure those terms are disambiguous and constant rather than constantly changing definitions and fusing terms that are being used in an exclusive manner. It also doesn't help that you're confusing the terminology yourself. Causation (re: relation) is in no where evident in your evidence. It only exists within your conjecture and has yet to be able to withstand intelligent scrutiny (as I've done to it time and again). The only thing that exists insofar as is concerned is the correlation between tier and potency, though this is routinely demolished. The only comparisons you're able to make to support this conjecture are the rare intersections of functionality within two power sets of an AT and even those don't withstand someone who actually knows what's going on.

I have demonstrated time and again that you don't have a clue what you're talking about. You went into this argument using flawed information and have come out of it using misinterpretation of presented information and a lack of knowledge concerning the actual powers in question. I strongly recommend you actually learn what you're trying to lecture me on before you try to show me up. You're doing a horrible job.

I'm only continuing this, fully knowing that you're incapable of actually admitting your own wrong (as evidenced by you incapability to actually confront your errors within this debate preferring to simply ignore them) for 2 reasons: I hope to educate anyone else who may be reading this other than you and that I think that, maybe, one day, when you actually learn all of the information and how to take into account all of the variables that you regularly ignore, you could possibly know a bit about balance. You've shown no ability to actually distinguish between balanced and imbalanced powers and have an obvious predilection for being incapable of actually considering that your hypothesis can't be proven, especially when faced with evidence of the contrary and having your own evidence proven untrue and obsolete. It doesn't help that your evidence is, in and of itself, a rare occurrence, so much so that you've only been able to find a few pieces, which, even then, are actually more appropriately used to prove a completely separate and contradictory theory.

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You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.


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Your inability to grasp the simple concept of balance is amusing to me.

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Do you even know what balance is?

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Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced.

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Funny, I said the same thing about you. Your grasping at straws trying to disprove that force bolt and power push are broken, yet you can't seem to be able to ... Just FYI, I'm done reading the garbage your saying. I'm just gonna pick out the sections where your trying to turn this into a flame now.

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Folonius, you've consistently been inable to actually read the information correctly. You forget about some aspects of powers and see other aspects that are virtually invisible as being integral to the effect of a power. You're harking on about you're ability to see imbalance where no one else does while simultaneously demonstrating that you're incapable of actually figuring out what a power does when you're given the information. When you actually start figuring out how to read City of Data, I'll actually consider what you have to say. Before then, it's simply a sad fact that you're simply not capable of being able to contribute to the discussion because you don't have the necessary expertise.

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I've yet to see a power that actually activates every second making the endurance cost the same as the end/sec.

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Invincibility, RttC, and AAO.

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It probably doesn't help that I don't really pay attention for stuff like that. I'm oblivious!

I made one up for you and sent it to you in PM. It's a color (and a few other) tweak of the goto costume I use for all of my characters. I didn't do anything with the weapons because I wasn't sure what origin you were and that's something that's pretty concept based.

In order to see what it looks like, just copy-paste it into notepad and save it as a .costume file in the Costumes file of City of Heroes. You'll then be able to open it and alter it just like any other saved costume.

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Scrapperlock in the blaster forums!

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We stayed on topic? I'm sure we deviated from the primary target at least once. I know I was guilty of doing so.

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and umbral im seeing something weird on city of data...correct me if im wrong, it says focused acc is using .39end/sec and not .78end/sec.

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It takes .39 end every activation. It activates every .5 seconds (as seen under Activate Period). It's the same with most of the Scrapper toggles. I've yet to see a power that actually activates every second making the endurance cost the same as the end/sec. Cloak of Fear costs 2.6 endurance. That's more than baseline endurance recovery. Good thing it only activates every 5 seconds, right?

PS. Pardon me if sometime in the discussion I get disproportionately pissed off at people that can't read City of Data.

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Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.


[/ QUOTE ]Fiery Embrace has 25% extra damage to fire, and double the duration of the Scrappers buildup. While maybe I'd make this tier 7, overall, it's still not that bad simply because the duration is double that of build up (20 seconds instead of 10)

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I say weaker because it's completely lacking the +tohit and has twice the recharge of Build Up to counteract the extended duration. It's a BU without +tohit. That's weaker.

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Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.

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These do completly different things. Spine Burst is an AoE Immob Attack that immobs targets for 12 seconds with a mag of less than 1. Prevents jumping, and flying for 10 seconds.

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First off, it's not an Immob attack. The immobilization is only .33 mag, hardly enough to actually count it as an immobilization. It doesn't prevent flying or jumping at all. You're simply showing how ignorant you are of the actual game information. That's a reduction in movement speed. The reduction in recharge and movement speed (along with the DoT) are simply the secondary effect of Spines/*. Please, try to actually learn what you're trying to argue.

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Burn does deal some damage, but is primarily a resist immob effect that lasts for a minute and 40 seconds. How could you even try to compare these two?

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Simple: they're both AoE damage attacks. Burn isn't primarily a resist immob effect. It's primarily an AoE attack. That's why it does so much damage.

AoE attack to AoE attack. Your inability to see the similarities are amusing considering you compared Thunder Clap and Oppressive Gloom to each other. That's hilarious. Burn and Spine Burst have more in common with each other than those two.

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Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.


[/ QUOTE ]Quick Recovery is like stamina, and is always active. Dark Consumption is an attack that deals damage and recovers endurance. These aren't even similar either.

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Even more obvious demonstration of your ignorance of real effects. Dark Consumption is an end recovery power that deals a small amount of damage. If damage were it's primary purpose, it would firstly have a recharge time that wasn't horribly long. Its damage is too low and its recharge is too long for it to be classified as an attack. Nice job trying there. End recovery powers are equivalent to each other.

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Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.


[/ QUOTE ]Divine Avalanche is an attack that only offers 15% defense for 10 seconds... Elude is god mode.

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DA/Parry are attacks that are capable of softcapped the melee and lethal defense of the user out of the box. Talk to any kat/* or BS/* Scrapper and they'll tell you that DA is more powerful and useful than Elude is. DA/Parry can be stacked permanently for the same +def contribution as Elude and doesn't have a crash associated with it. They're both defense powers. Defense powers are comparable.

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Clearly, you have lost your mind, or your just being stupid on purpose in using these as examples. Congratz on wasting your time looking for these.

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You know, you may want to actually learn to read the information on City of Data, so that next time you try to actually read the entries you'll actually comprehend them. You may want to also look at the power as a whole rather than just determining that because it deals damage it's an attack or protects from a mez effect that it's a mez protection power. You're constant inability to actually figure out what a power does is amusing.

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Edit: And you've also proven without a doubt with this post you haven't a clue about how these different powers are balanced.

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Looking at how little you actually know about the powers, I'm amazed that you even think you're capable of determining whether powers are balanced. Are you even capable of reading the entries in City of Data? Are you really that incapable of actually determining a power's purpose that you think that Dark Consumption, with it's 3 minute recharge and 55 damage, is balanced around being an attack rather than an end recovery tool? Are you that blind to the actual capabilities and functions of powers?

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For all the tweaking you could do, it would be pretty tough to design a system that didn't allow me to design enemies with weaknesses tailored to my characters' particular strengths. We already see this with non-MA mobs.

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Gah... the number of people I know of that create enemies specifically because they'll be crazy easy for them to kill/survive astonishes me. I know so many Fire/Fire Scrappers that can solo AE AVs with no because designed them with all fire damage and no resistance (re: fire melee, fire assualt), which they're resisting with no problem at all times. They fall over with no effort as well because there's nothing to make them harder to kill. All that this player would have to do with this system is give every attack to the AV and rake in even more experience.

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QR

As a side question, is the 6% to hit IO better than a 9% accuracy set bonus? I just realized I could drop a 4th LoTG and grab that IO if its better.

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Yes, it's better. I wouldn't make a build without it.

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It depends on the situation, but I'll agree that, in most cases, the +tohit is better. Of course, in most cases, neither is really going to be needed.

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Show me one other example where there are two powers that do virtually the same thing, and are seperated by 4 tiers between a primary and a secondary, and I will stand corrected.

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Fiery Embrace from Fiery Aura and any Scrapper Build Up. Fiery Embrace is a tier 8. Build up is a tier 4. Fiery Embrace is actually weaker.

Quick Recovery from Regen and Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. QR is tier 3 and Dark Consumption is tier 7.

Spine Burst from Spines and Burn from Fiery Aura. Spine Burst is tier 3 and Burn is tier 7.

Divine Avalanche from Katana and Elude from Super Reflexes. DA is tier 5 and Elude is tier 9.

Will you shut up now? I found 4 examples that were actually closer comparisons than yours when you only asked for 1.

I've supported the Shadow Shard being co-habitant for a long time. I don't want it to become a PvP zone because that would just make it as empty and unpopular as RV after a month of players going "ooh, shiny!". However, I am willing to share. When I say co-habitant, I mean that players and villains are in the same zone but can't team. Think co-op zones without actually working together. Just running around in a stalemate without ever actually working together.

The reasoning for this is actually pretty simple, especially since the devs have gone into the Origin of Power and pretty much stated that all super powers have the same fundamental origin: super-to-super conflict within the shard would destabilize it to such a degree as to rend the fabric of reality and erase everyone involved from existence as well as potentially releasing Rularuu. The only characters that would actually want to do this would then be those that are trying to release Rularuu with such a fervor as to completely abandon thought for their own lives. It's probably a small enough sub-set of characters (those that really want to free Rularuu and those that don't value their own existence at all) that it's excusable.

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Except that we know people would then just load an enemy down with so many useless attacks that it's not even remotely difficult (because they just load them down with so many attacks that half of them are never used thanks to animation restrictions). It would happen like crazy. People would just make enemies with as many crappy attacks as possible so that they can get an enemy with a high xp mod for very little risk.

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Which is why the "crappy" attacks are rated to give a small threat rating, as detailed in my post. You load a mob with nothing but light attacks - it will give little reward.

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The problem is that if you load an NPC with so many attacks that only a small portion of them actually get used (which is one of the reasons why attack/attack custom critters are ridiculously squishy), you're going to be getting credit for fighting a high threat enemy when it's not even remotely close to being a threat. Examples would be Battle Axe/War Mace custom critters. Give them everything from both sets. The only attacks that are even a remote threat are Clobber and Cleave, and only one of those is ever going to be used because of the weapon redraw issue.

Players are going to do stuff like this. Creating a system complicated enough to actually account for all of the variables would be crazy. There isn't a simple algorithmic way to calculate when a player has overloaded an NPC with attacks. Players should never be able to control how much experience an enemy gives, just like they shouldn't be given control over the minimum strength of an NPC either. It's better to simply assign a flat (preferably sub-average) amount of experience based around the forced minimum level of danger. Any danger above that is only rewarded psychologically/socially.

There is 1 good reason to take FA nowadays: 69.2% tohit debuff resistance.

5% +tohit and 20% +acc aren't really worth the .78 end/sec on their own, but the fact that you can laugh at pretty much every tohit debuff that comes your way is great. It's the only way for a Scrapper to get tohit debuff resistance as well.

I do hope that Castle reduces the cost on it though. Considering that it's supposed to be an APP version of Targeting Drone, it's got an end cost that's twice as high, a tohit buff that is one third as large, and only 20% +acc to show for it.

Strangely enough, the more I examine some of the traditionally awesome powers and power sets, the more I think Castle is trying to punish them for their previous popularity more than actually trying to balance them.

Except that we know people would then just load an enemy down with so many useless attacks that it's not even remotely difficult (because they just load them down with so many attacks that half of them are never used thanks to animation restrictions). It would happen like crazy. People would just make enemies with as many crappy attacks as possible so that they can get an enemy with a high xp mod for very little risk.

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1) I didn't say they're not related.
2) I said that what tier a power is has no effect on how strong the power is.
3) A power will not be made any stronger or weaker depending on what tier the power is.
4) If a power is strong is is more likely to be a later tier power, but there is no example anywhere in game of a power being weakened just because it is a lower tier or higher tier power.


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1 contradicts your entire argument. You didn't say they're not related, but then you go on to argue that they aren't related.

2 contradicts 4 and 1, 3 contradicts 4 and 1, and 4 contradicts 1, 2, and 3.

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The contradiction you seem to be trying to find is a semantic one. The difference between a relation and a correlation (which, I admit, I've accidentally overstepped in this discussion). There is a correlation between potency and tier, as I've said before. A tendency. A higher tier power is more likely to be more potent and a lower tier power is likely to be less so.

Think of it this way: ice cream sales and murder rates show a very strong statistical correlation. When ice cream sales are up, murder rates are also up. Does that mean they're related? No.

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People have been pointing it out to you this entire time and you're either too ignorant, oblivious, or just plain stubborn to realize it.

5) Castle, who is the ultimate authority on the game numbers, has refuted this idea of yours as posited by other people in the past.
6) He specifically stated that the strength of a power has nothing to do with when you get it.
6a) Basic powers come first. More complex ones come later.
That's how it goes. 9 powers are designed for a set and then placed in their various tiers. The powers are made stronger or weaker depending on where they are made available.


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5 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.
6 contradicts 4, 1, and 6a.

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How is 6a contradicted by either of those? Power complexity is only tangentially related to power potency and effectiveness unless you interpret complexity as potency, as you seem to be. Complexity has nothing to do with how strong a power is. If it were so, powers such as Storm Kick, which are incredibly powerful would be later choices rather than initial ones. No one would get or use early powers because they wouldn't be effective compared to the later ones. As it stands early powers are simply more basic, meaning that they generally recharge faster and provide the basic function of the AT more directly. Later powers tend to be less basic (Re: complex): they're less integral for generating attack strings, provide additional functionality to an AT beyond the basics, etc.

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A special note on 6a. You used the words Basic and Complex. These are two very good descriptors for the different powers. They can also be the difference between a strong power and a weak power in many (not all) instances.

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And yet you purposefully use the basic/complex and weak/strong comparisons indiscriminately. I specifically used the terms basic/complex because they include innumerable other variables outside of direct effect of a power to account for a power's placement within a power set. You simply decided to ignore the difference and use it to try to make it seem like I'm agreeing with you (which I'm not).

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Fire imps is better than speed boost IMO, and is more complex. MoG is more complex than Divine Avalanche, and is better IMO. But it doesn't work in all cases, because saying Inertial Reduction is more complex than Ice Slick isn't correct. (I was comparing primaries and secondaries on a DB/Regen, Fire/Kin, and an Ice/Kin)

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Inertial Reduction could easily be considered to be more complex than Ice Slick. Ice Slick is a PbAoE knockdown. It provides a basic function (control) to the AT (controller). Inertial Reduction is a PbAoE +jump. It provides a non-combat benefit. Non-combat benefits are more complex than combat benefits, especially when you consider that everything in game has to be examined from a combat perspective. How to gain benefit from Inertial Reduction while in combat is much more complicated than how to gain benefit from Ice Slick.

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Are you trying to make yourself seem like some game balance messiah by bringing up completely pointless comparisons and claiming that everyone else is oblivious to it?


[/ QUOTE ]No, I'm not a messiah, but thanks for thinking that.

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Your reading comprehension skills must be incredibly lacking if you think that's what I was saying. If you need a quick primer on "How to Read Intent", here's a sample:

If someone questions you asking whether you are attempting to make yourself seem exceedingly grand, the person does not actually believe what you're trying to do. They're seeing through it.

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What I'm saying is your narrow minded in not thinking that there is already a balance between primaries and secondaries in place. The balance between force bolt and power push is skewed IMO. The damage is almost the same, the recharge is slower on the tier 7 power, and has less knockback.

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The damage is not "almost the same". The damage is twice as much. You're also ignoring the primary/secondary disparity issue. If a power in a secondary were just as potent as that of a power that same AT's primary, that would be completely broken, not to mention that it ignores the fact that balance is done for a power set as a whole not as a series of independent powers. Force Bolt should recharge faster and have greater support capability (re: higher mag knockback) because it's there to support. The damage means less because it's there to support, and, because it's a knockback power, it needs to be back up quickly in order to actually perform that support. Power Push, on the other hand, is a support power in a damage set. It's less effective and takes longer to recharge because it's a support power in a set that has the function of dealing damage.

Your inability to actually accept that powers from a primary and powers from a secondary shouldn't actually be equal is incredibly exasperating. Any idea behind having something like that would generate ridiculous imbalance. If a Scrapper wants to get some extra damage from his secondary by sacrificing a bit of survivability (Fiery Aura), it shouldn't be as efficient. It's a defensive power set. It should focus on defense. If a Controller wants to have some extra control capability from his secondary by sacrificing a bit of traditional support (Trick Arrow), that should be less efficient than the controls in his primary or cost the power set as a whole more. Any deviation from assigned power set role should come at an increased cost, otherwise it's pointless to even have different roles.