Umbral

[ QUOTE ]
~ Change the endurance cost of Dark Regeneration to something more reasonable. Charging over a third of a bar of Endurance for a self heal in a set that uses resists and heals for mitigation is harsh. I would like to see the base endurance cost reduced to 20.

As comparison, Reconstruction is only base 10 endurance. While it has a longer recharge and cannot benefit from healing from multiple foes, it has the benefit of not needed a hit check and it can be used between battles to recover health safely.

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Don't quote a single aspect of Reconstruction when you're asking for a significant improvement to a power you deem "comparable". First off, Dark Regen does damage whereas Recon doesn't. Recon is automatic whereas Dark Regen has to make a tohit check. Dark Regen heals per target hit within a 20 ft. radius whereas Recon is a static value that is actually less than the heal from Dark Regen's single heal. Dark Regen is on a 30 second recharge whereas Recon is on a 60 second recharge. The only area in which Recon is actually better than Dark Regen is tohit (which is pretty well balanced with the fact that Dark Regen goes damage) and endurance (which is pretty well balanced with the fact that Dark Regen doesn't need recharge slotting of any kind).

The entire point of Dark Regen is to be a power that has an entirely different slotting mentality than every other heal power in the game. Recon and Healing Flames are both slotted for Healing and Recharge. Dark Regen pretty much only needs some Acc slotting (2x) and End Redux (3x). If you actually slot it as such, it's still a good deal better than Recon because it will still heal for more unless you only hit a single target (and be able to heal to full with 4 targets whereas Recon will only pull you up 48.7%), recharge in pretty much the exact same amount of time (slightly faster actually), and it only costs a small amount more.

Dark Regen is a perfectly well balanced power, especially since it's within a mitigation heavy power set. One of the reasons why WP is generally viewed as so powerful is because, like DA, it combines respectable levels of damage mitigation with respectable levels of damage recovery.

Here's a build similar to mine I cooked up for you. Melee defense is a bit less important than ranged defense because you've got DA to give you loads of that (a single DA will give you 35.9% melee def), but it's got the recharge to maintain the all important GC>any attack string with the AH and Hecatomb proc in GC.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

+def concept: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(3), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(5), Hectmb-Dam%(5), Achilles-ResDeb%(42)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- RgnTis-Regen+(A)
Level 2: Flashing Steel -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(7), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), Oblit-%Dam(46)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal(13), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 6: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(7), EndMod-I(48)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- Mako-Dam%(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Mako-Acc/Dmg(21), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(43), Zephyr-Travel(50), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(50), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal(25), Dct'dW-Rchg(25)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-ResKB(15), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(27)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(27)
Level 18: The Lotus Drops -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 20: Boxing -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(34), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(36), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(36), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(36)
Level 22: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam(37), Aegis-Psi/Status(39)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(39), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Mako-Dam%(42)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal(31), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(45), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(46), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 35: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 41: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43)
Level 44: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(45), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 47: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

Here's my DM/Regen Build. It's mostly transferable to Kat/Regen, but you'd be hard pressed to get identical equivalent slotting. It's a bit less regen focused than Santor's but it's got much more +recharge. Remember this: Obliteration sets are your friend. By far the best suite of set bonuses I've seen in any IO set.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

[u]Click this DataLink to open the build![u]

+def concept: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Concealment
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), T'Death-Dam%(46)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- RgnTis-Regen+(A)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- Armgdn-Dmg(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(7), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(9), Armgdn-Dam%(11)
Level 4: Reconstruction -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(11), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(13), Dct'dW-Heal(13), Dct'dW-Rchg(15)
Level 6: Quick Recovery -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(7), EndMod-I(48)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(17), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(19), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(21), T'Death-Dam%(21)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 12: Dull Pain -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Dct'dW-Heal(25), Dct'dW-Rchg(25)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-ResKB(15), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(27)
Level 16: Integration -- Numna-Heal/EndRdx(A), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(17), Numna-Heal(27)
Level 18: Dark Consumption -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(31), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-%Dam(34)
Level 20: Boxing -- Amaze-Stun(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg(34), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg(36), Amaze-Acc/Rchg(36), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun(36)
Level 22: Tough -- Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx(A), Aegis-ResDam/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(37), Aegis-ResDam(37), Aegis-Psi/Status(39)
Level 24: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(39)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40), Oblit-%Dam(42)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(29), Dct'dW-Heal(31), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(42)
Level 30: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(31), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(45), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(46), Hectmb-Dam%(46)
Level 35: Stealth -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 38: Moment of Glory -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg(42), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(43), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(50), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(50), GSFC-Build%(50)
Level 44: Super Speed -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(45), Zephyr-ResKB(48)
Level 47: Invisibility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 49: Resilience -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

[ QUOTE ]
Just run the Hero's Hero's story Arc it covers all 13 I am currently running the arc an it also gives 24 merits oh and if speed i more important run it at heroic and the EB versions count. I already done parts of this arc then abandoned it to run some Solo AV's the last weekend to get some test Maruader can be gotten in a 1 mission flashback as well as nightstar

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You're funny. He already stated that he has successfully run through Maria Jenkins' arc, specifically by saying that he defeated Tyrant, the final AV for the arc, so it's pointless to tell him to run it again. Also, you're completely wrong about A Hero's Hero having all 13 of the AVs for Dimensional Warder. While the arc may contain 15 distinct AVs, Tyrant, Shadowhunter, and Mother Mayhem do not count for the badge. Go ahead and try running A Hero's Hero without running The Praetorian War. No matter how many times you run it, you still won't get Dimensional Warder. You'll only get the same 12 AV credits that everyone else gets. To get the 13th (Anti-Matter), you've got to do the 40-45 level arc for Tina Macintyre, who is the only contact in the game that offers fights with him. He's especially annoying because the only times you fight him (and actually get the kill credit) are the very last mission of said arc and a couple follow up missions for Tina after the arc is completed if you haven't already out leveled her.

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Yes, this isn't a tank-bashing thread. Most tanks I've teamed with have been good experiences and a team can really survive and thrive with one. As always, it's the bossy control freaks that are the problem. Luckily they're fairly rare

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I've observed that the primary reason that so many people have a problem with most Tankers (using the specific term in CoX) is the people that tend to play tanks (using the general term in MMOs) tend to think of themselves as the linchpin of the group. They're important. They're in change. If they drop, so does everyone else. Even if they're complete idiots that don't even know how the game works, they think it was all because of them because they're the tank.

It doesn't help that, because of the tank's role within the group, it's more obvious when they're an idiot, a noob, or don't know how to play the game. Incompetent Blasters and Scrappers aren't particularly obvious (obvious meaning you can tell they're idiots without checking their build or reading chat) because they're damage dealers. If stuff is dieing, it's assuming that the Blaster/Scrapper is doing his/her job. Incompetent Controllers and Defenders are a bit more obvious. Generally, they're the ones that think healing is the be-all-end-all of support, don't use their controls/buffs/debuffs, or try to be primary damage dealers. You can tell they're idiots because they're not doing what they're there for: keeping the team alive. Incompetent Tankers are, by far, the most obvious. They're the ones that die or get held (and then die) regularly. They're the ones that, rather than actively getting aggro, focus on the closest enemy and let the rest of the mob kill their teammates. They're the ones that, even though they should know that they're the hardiest guy in the group, still insist on having someone else run in first and take the alpha because they think they're squishier.

Freedom Events and RF2009 are both active channels (active meaning conversations and team/tf forming take place by a decent portion of the people inside) with spaces open.

[ QUOTE ]
Somehow I am finding you simply opinionated and perhaps quite arrogant. I do find in your words some amount of truth in fact, and unlike you, I am willing to give you credit for your knowledge and expertise; would be nice you could see that on others.

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If you knew anything about me, you'd find me to be quite arrogant, incredibly opinionated, and horribly abrasive. Interestingly enough, two of those traits have a tendency to vanish when I'm not constantly correcting someone's gross errors and observational bias based on a small amount of flimsy anecdotal evidence or having to forcibly teach someone the fundamentals of game design and balance and the difference between a want and a need.

When dealing with people that actually know what they're talking about, I'm actually quite amicable and mostly polite and am willing to concede the correctness of a divergent opinion. The problem is that not only do you not know what you're talking about, you don't even have a solid base of evidence with which to make your case on if there even was a problem.

[ QUOTE ]
I think all corruptor damage in general is too low, in fact at times is really insulting. I thought Corruptors were supposed to be the blasters of the villain world, what happened?

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Corrupter damage is more than balanced considering all of the force multipliers they bring to bear, which you seem to be discounting or forgetting. Corruptors are less akin to the Blasters of CoV and more akin to the Defenders, albeit with greater offense and only slightly worse support capabilities. With the I15 changes, the Blaster equivalent of CoV (re: lots of damage and no support) is more like to be the Dominator, because their role is to dish out damage, though the Dominator provides a bit more control (which Blasters do get some of).

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of corruptors, could they get the blaster benefit when mezzed?

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Considering they've already got near defender level support capabilities, I'm going to say no. Defiance was something given to Blasters to help them deal with mez effects better, considering they were the only damage AT that didn't have some method for dealing with it.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Keep in mind that "combos" doesn't mean "firing like crazy". Personally, I think that most of the attacks would only include firing a couple times at most. The cohesiveness and grace of the set would be more involved in the movements of the body itself, getting the pistol in line. Rather than just staying still and firing like crazy (re: assault rifle), the arms would actually be in motion.

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Combos means firing multiple times to achieve a result. That is not something I find I like as a playstyle for Blasters. That's a throwback to Tomb Raider and how she used her handguns - lots of firing, maybe not like crazy, against a tough target. I'm not a fan of that as a thematic. I much prefer a big gun that fires big bullets, even if that doesn't leave that much room in the clip for continuous fire.

You also seem to be thinking of this set as akin to the much-repeated "gun kata," which really isn't representative of how a ranged AT would play. I've thought about how such a set might look and play, and I've come to the conclusion that unless you're designing the set to be used in melee while surrounded by enemies, a martial-arts-influenced "dance of the guns" isn't really appropriate, and such a setup is itself not appropriate to something like a Blaster. Yes, they do fight in melee occasionally, but their design is fighting from range and shooting forward (for the most part), which really does entail standing and shooting ahead. Look at all the current gun users - they are all exclusively point and shoot. It's just sometimes pointing with one gun, sometimes with both and sometimes firing a little and sometimes firing a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I'm thinking of the set in the terms of a cohesive set of 9 discrete powers with a unifying design mechanism rather than "gun-katas" or "gun-fu". For your idea, the unifying design mechanism would be reloading. I'm about as big of a fan of reloading as I am of redraw. I don't really care if the attacks are "gun-fu" or not. I'd much rather have them be interesting visually rather than simply standing around shooting with a break every once in a while to move and possibly reload. If it's that, the entire set's animations could pretty much use a single animation: point and click, possibly with some point and click multiple times.

The problem with bringing up FPS and TPS games is that they're nothing like CoX. You're not going to be able to stop shooting mid animation. Reloading should not be a concern mid combat. The attack for a weapon should not be the same with only minor differences that simple serve to distinguish between "one shot", "two shots", and "a lot of shots". I'd like to actually have a series of largely different attacks that are visually appealing.

Combos don't have to be "dance of guns" either. They can just as easily be a combination of specific trick shots in a specific order that accomplish something special. It makes about as much logical sense as using an attack against the target's armor, a series of attacks that knock the target down, and then another wide attack causing a bleeding effect on the target (Attack Vitals) when no other combination of attacks does. The combos exist to provide a tangible benefit for using animations that mesh well, which I believe attacking with two pistols should do equally well, especially considering your own desire for constant fire from the pistols.

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Personally, I think it would work just fine. Blasters don't have to be alpha strike monsters. They operate just fine dishing out consistent damage over a long period of time rather than having discrete spikes of high damage. There's a reason why devices still works even though it lacks Build Up, and it's not that the bombs are supposed to make up for that (they don't in 90% of the situations). Blasters can work perfectly fine with sustained rather than burst damage, especially if they play intelligently.

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I strongly disagree, and happen to feel there is a reason why Devices does NOT work even in the slightest, not counting toe-bombing, or "the bombs" as you put it. The set provides nothing to help the Blaster by little hits at utility and control, gives you plenty of garbage powers that could be combined together and still won't be actually good, and robs you of the kind of up-front punch that keeps a Blaster alive when there isn't a team to back him up. I got the set to 50 and I STILL hate with a passion for all the ways it has made my AR/Dev Blaster suck.

The truth, at least as far as I have seen it, is that Blasters don't GET to dish out consistent damage, because they simply don't have the TIME to do so. Every time I've tried that, I've gotten killed as I'm busying myself dishing out consistent damage and the stuff I should have killed before the battle even started either holds me or outright kills me. By comparison, all of the spike-damage Blasters, even Electrical Melee, have been able to seriously blunt the enemy with a good alpha strike. Sure, they can then afford to deal consistent damage when the biggest dangers are dead and gone, but by that point, it's already a whole different animal.

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My Elec/Nrg blaster would like to have a word with you if you don't think that consistent damage is effective for Blasters. Both Short Circuit and Ball Lightning are largely DoTs and there isn't a tier 3 blast within the set, which means that she has to survive by doing consistent rather than burst damage. The lack of burst damage is simply mitigated by the fact that, though I can't rely completely on dealing damage to get me through solo encounters, I have to rely on actual control effects. I have to use Tesla Cage, Stun, and my endurance drain intelligently and effectively in order to solo well, which she does. Just because you're specific playstyle wouldn't work well with a consistent damage mechanic doesn't mean that it wouldn't work for other people that are more willing to allow their powersets to dictate play style than their own blanket interpretation of an AT, regardless of power sets.

[ QUOTE ]
It's going to take a LOT to convince me that an AT with precisely ZERO staying power can work with slow, consistent damage anywhere near as well as it can work with up-front, spike damage. I'm not immune to reason, let me say that, but I've just been killed by "consistent" damage so, so many more times than it has actually helped me. Pretty much the only reason my AR/Dev Blaster works at anything more than snail's pace are LRM, Time Bomb and Full Auto, with the occasional helping of Surveillance. Anything else is a battle of attrition I just don't have the toughness to endure.

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The problem you've got is that you automatically assume that Blasters have no staying power. While it's nowhere near the level available to Scrappers or Tankers, it's still better than that available to most Defenders and Controllers, especially when considering IOs and soloing. When using the controls available in both primary and secondary as well as using intelligent tactics that actually capitalize on these powers, you can be quite effective and safe when soloing.

The other problem is that the sets are balanced around being able to solo heroic missions. Trying to drag a Blaster solo through an unyielding or invincible Rikti mission is horrible (and, trust me, I've done this), but that's not what the sets are designed around. They're designed around taking out 3 minions and no lts, 1-2 minions and 1 lt, or 2 lts at once without external help, assuming they're at full health when they start the fight and the enemies are 0-1 level higher than you. That's easy to accomplish without any use of burst damage and all of the other tactics you espouse as completely necessary for a Blaster. Against harder targets, maybe and yes, but against the standard design challenge, not so much.

[ QUOTE ]
Isn't the reason Fire has higher dps that damage is all it does? Fire doesn't slow the target like ice, it doesn't drain endurance like electricity, and it doesn't debuff the target like sonic, radiation or dark.

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The extra damage of each attack is supposed to be represented by the additional DoT at the end of each attack rather than any significant natural advantage in damage-recharge, damage-endurance, and average DPA calculations beyond the contribution of the bonus DoT. The lack of utility is supposed to be made up with additional attack options, namely replacing the control power with another AoE (Rain of Fire).

The big reason why there is such a disparity between the DPA of ranged attack sets is because, when Geko was in charge of the numbers and Jack Emmert was in charge, neither of them believed that animation time had anything to do with DPS. They both believed that recharge was the more integral attribute for DPS. It wasn't until significantly later that the players, the number crunchers and min/maxers we are, determined that activation time actually had a greater impact on potential DPS than animation time, mostly due to the low recharge times in some fast animating attacks. This lead to the current devs actually taking animation time into account, though, because of the sheer number of attacks and lack of balance formulas, they have yet to actually rebalance all of the attacks to account for the disparities. Well, those reasons, along with the fact that balance is analyzed from a heuristic standpoint before being analyzed from a numerical standpoint.

The I13 PvP changes, which normalized most attacks for their animation time along with their recharge and endurance costs, showed that it was possible to create changes as systemic as would be required for real balance across all attributes, but it was unpopular enough that I don't think it will arrive in a similar form in PvE. The normalization of the animation times of the tier 1 and 2 powers for the blast sets was nice, seeing as it brought all of the blaster sets more in line with the intended balance, and I hope that, eventually it will be done to more than just those 2 powers within the set, but, keep in mind, that normalization of this kind is bound to largely remove the individuality from power sets, as well as angering large portions of the player base that enjoy those powers that would be weakened by such normalization. Just look at the number of players throwing a fit concerning Dominator Psychic Shockwave in I15.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh my Umbral, you need not to be so condescending...

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I'll stop being condescending when you start actually showing a deeper knowledge of the game mechanics and balance processes. My condescension is derived from having to constantly deal with people that are demonstrably lacking in knowledge and expertise while simultaneously making recommendations the would actually require a minimum level of this knowledge and expertise. If people actually knew what they were talking about (and, by extension, what I was talking about), I would speak on more equal and respectful terms.

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Your cure all Acrobatics is not nearly as good as advertised

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If you actually read what I posted, you'd see that I never posited Acrobatics as being a cure all. I stated that it's a pre-existing mez protection pool power that demonstrates the extent that the devs are actually willing to go to give players a pool mez protection power. Acrobatics is incredibly weak and is only serviceable for knockback/up protection (mag 2 hold protection will only save you from the very few mag 2 holds in the game). That's as good as you can hope for, especially since the context of this thread is a power pool for mez protection.

[ QUOTE ]
I can solo with my Defender well enough, it just is boring when each encounter takes forever to complete. Status effects normally can be dealt thru hurricane by making the ACC of badies be really bad, but some status effects are sadly auto hit. I don't think mag-4 status effect makes me immune, you are exagerating there, by quite a large margin; it does make me much more resilient; there is no way at mag 4 a defender can be immune to any status effect when playing in say difficulty 3 level of mission, at that level yuo will have so many LTs and Bosses slamming you, that the puny 4 is mostly decorative. I will agree with you, at level 1, the most simple and supposed to be not challenging, the Defender would likely not have to worry much about status effects.

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The only requirement that the devs have stated for any AT is that it should be able to solo on heroic. You can solo on heroic. You don't need a new source of mez protection to solo on heroic. Hell, I've leveled a number of soft character without any mez protection and found it to be completely alright.

As to how much effect mag 4 protection is going to have, you first need to realize that the Scrapper and Tanker mez powers scale with level. They don't start out at double digit mag protection. Scrappers start with mag 6.3 when most of them first get their mez powers at level 16. Tankers, which get theirs
6 levels or more earlier, get only 6.375 at level 10. And from that point on, they don't get mez'd. The number of times that mezzes actually stack in PvE are incredibly rare, generally only happening at the high levels in which multiple enemies within an enemy group have mez affects available. Even then, it's not common to actually stack up these mez affects unless you're in a large group, at which point it's assumed that there should be some granted mez protection available (Clear Mind, Thaw, Clarity/Sonic Dispersion, Dispersion Bubble, Increase Density, etc.). Even just 4 mag of mez protection would provide immunity to virtually all control effects while soloing and a vast majority of mez effects while in a group.

[ QUOTE ]
Once more, I challenge you to not think in black and white, but shades of grey.

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I am thinking in shades of gray but, thanks to the binary nature of mez affects, it's rather hard. Just because I don't agree with you because I'm actually looking at competent performance across a larger period of time and more diverse power selection doesn't mean I'm being obtuse. If anything, you're the one being obtuse because, rather than changing your play style to actually account for mez effects, which shouldn't just be shrugged off by the ATs that they're meant to be a threat to, or packing a few break frees when you solo, you're asking for an entire AT (or even all of the ATs, depending on the implementation) to be rebalanced around the presence of a completely new power pool made exclusively to service to your desire and the observed need (more appropriately, a want) to not have to deal with mez effects.

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Incidentally, originally when the game was created, Defenders were supposed to be a compromise between blasters and tankers

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Incidentally, when Jack Emmert originally created the game (re-early beta and prebeta, which you seem to be referring to because, even at release, defenders never had a particularly high pool of hit points), there weren't supposed to be ATs at all, weapon affects modified your basic attack, and origin had significant effect upon your effectiveness. The game is nothing like it was at release or even like it was in the game's early conception and design, which is a good thing. Bringing up what was original conceived rather than what the AT actually does now isn't really a good argument. The game is completely different now and those arguments are almost all completely inappropriate.

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,All I seek is some status effect protection, mainly for defenders. Blasters have been semi-fixed by being able to still combat despite of their status, controllers can get a status resist ability thru their epics; so whats so wrong to get a little status effect resistance for defenders?

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How about the fact that they don't need it? If everyone gets mez protection that allows them to ignore mez for a significant portion of the game, then it's pointless. Defenders don't need mez protection. You've be incapable of actually showing that. You want mez protection because there are situations you've put yourself in to that would have been easier had you had it. If you can actually show how Defenders are inordinately weaker because they lack mez protection (even though they don't; see Dispersion Bubble and Sonic Dispersion), then fine; bring those arguments up, but all you've served to show up til this point is that you don't like having to deal with one of the designated weaknesses of the AT that you're playing. You might as well be complaining for more and better melee AT ranged damage.

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Herding tanks drive me batty.

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I'd like to suggest a change to that: bad herding tanks drive me batty.

When I play my tanks, I herd. I do this mainly because I find it the best way to actually tank since I'm not nor have I ever been a fan of taking Taunt (though I'm reconsidering this now that Taunt has -range), but I also don't expect the group to stop and wait for me to actually herd. I'm proactive. I don't wait for the entire group to be dead before I go and herd up the next group (which also prevents group splits because everyone knows I'll be exactly where they need to head by the time they need to choose). I wait for enough stragglers to be standing around that it will take enough time for the rest of the team to clear the group for me to get the next group nice and huddled up. I generally operate 1 group at a time as well, but that's mostly because I run on diffs 2 and 4 with 8 man teams (re: I live at the aggro cap). The only time a herding tank slows a group down is if it's a bad herding tank, at which point you'd be better served by just having him/her jump in.

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Help me here with your assertions, but what single power you are talking about that give defenders all those high levels of damage resistance, against so many different types of damages? I thought it was a choice of pairs at best.

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Each of those set ups is a different resistance toggle available from the defenders' Ancillary Power Pool (APP).

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I don't understand your use of "scalars" on their powers, can you please clarify or expand?

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Scalars are on the primary balancing methods used in the game and are the method used to determine a power's effectiveness at the various levels. For some examples, Blasters have a 1.125 ranged damage scalar. Scrappers have a .5 ranged damage scalar. With the same ranged attack power, a Scrapper would do ~45% of the damage of a blaster. The same functionality applies to resistance, defense, buffs, heals, melee damage, control effects, etc. ATs with a high scalar are going to get a greater benefit than an AT with a low scalar from powers that perform the function in question.

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What I can tell you, is that when I am trying to kill something with my Storm/Dark Defender, it takes me forever to drop a boss, my damage is nearly insignificant. I have never experienced such an issue with my Scrapers, bosses drop within 6 hits or less, not nearly thirty something hits as it happens with my dark/storm defender, maybe it just dark set of powers that have puny damage Defenders wise and gives a wrong appearance.

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Or, it could just be that you're comparing Scrappers, which are the soloing kings, to Defenders, which are rather mediocre (if not the worst in most cases) soloers. Of course the Scrapper is going to rip through the enemy faster, though it probably doesn't help that you're using Dark Blast which has anemic single target damage because it's more control/utility based. Scrappers have better damage. I don't however see any relationship between how long it should take to kill an enemy and the need for mez protection, especially since an intelligent defender will be using his buffs and debuffs to get rid of the need for most such things (re: use your knockback).

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Also I would like to suggest if we could stop thinking binary here, that is all or nothing. Tankers get MAG-12 status ressitance, that is a controller's largest MAG attack being 3, would have to hit you (12/3=4+1) 5 times before they can even affect you. In practicality that is fair enough, Tankers gonna go get the entire aggroe and thus need it. But why should Defenders have "0"? They do draw aggroe too, why not give them the same mag resistance that a boss has (MAG 6), so it takes 3 applications of a mez to hold them down? This does not mean a defender is immune to status effects, it only means that they can also be heroic and take the periodic aoe status effect that hits them while they are trying to keep the tanke alive, also it means they could solo (when the player choses to) that they are not so totally helpless.

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First off, Tankers get 12.975 mag of mez protection and bosses have 4 mag of mez protection, not 6. Secondly, controllers don't have a simple mag 3. They've got overpower, which is a chance for an additional mag 1 of the control on virtually all of their powers. Either way, player control capabilities and NPC control capabilities are vastly different. Critters != players where balance is concerned. Thirdly, mag 6, which you're suggesting, would actually provide immunity to most mez that comes your way within the confines of PvE. It's rare enough to have enemies that control heavily but it's even more rare to get enough enemies in a single group to actually chain control a player, especially if s/he is on a team (wherein s/he loses aggro unless there is a Taunt active). Lastly, mez protection is not needed for soloing. It's not needed for anything. The reasons Tankers and Scrappers get it is because they have to be in melee, and thusly exposed to additional risk, to accomplish anything. Being in melee is purely an option for Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers. They can operate at full or near full capacity while remaining at range the whole time. Lacking mez protection does not make someone "helpless" especially if they've got the debuffs and controls available to negate most enemies in the first place.

Keep in mind that you're asking for a power pool, not defender mez protection. Power pools should be useful to everyone. Sadly enough, giving extra mez protection to a Scrapper or Tanker would be largely useless except maybe for PvP since they've already got enough and would only be particularly useful to Blasters (which already have Defiance), Controllers, and Defenders.

It sounds to me like you simply need to learn to play the game. If you're running with a Storm/Dark, you'd be running fine if you actually knew how to use it. Hurricane, Tornado, numerous controls, and prolific debuffs should be more than enough to carry you through while solo and while on a team.

Here's something for you to think about: there's already a pool power with mez protection in game. It's called Acrobatics. It gives mag 9 KB/KU protection and mag 2 hold protection. That's all that the devs have been willing to give it. I don't think they're going to actually give it any more, much less create another power pool to do what it does only better, especially when the devs and those of the player base that actually know what they're doing see no real balance need for it.

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Has anyone come across this before?

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It's a problem that exists when you've got lots of enemies spawning like crazy in a single lag filled area. IIRC, it's an issue with the server lagging behind in real time and your client thinking that the Rikti has already spawned when the Rikti is still in the process of spawning. The other is that sometimes they're already dead and the server hasn't been able to keep up with everyone's client. It knows it's dead, but you don't.

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Also, the notion that guns do defence debuff isn't exactly accurate. Burst does defence debuff, but it's pretty much alone in that among rifle attacks. What's more, the only precedent we have for dual handgun attacks - Thugs Masterminds - don't actually have defence debuff effects on their attacks. Empty Clips and Dual Wield do have a chance for knockbakc, but Pistols pretty much has a single effect - damage.

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Players aren't the only things in the game that use guns. Virtually all NPC guns cause -def, and they've got many more pistol users than players do. The prolific nature of NPC guns and how much -def they do is one of the reasons why def debuff resistance is so necessary for defense based sets.

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I'm not sure it's accurate to say that combos are a specifically new game mechanic that had to be designed for Dual Blades specifically, so much so as just a new implementation of existing functionality, such as when they set up certain toggles (primarily Phase Shift powers), auto-turn-off after a certain period of time.

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I will cede that it wasn't exactly a new mechanic, but the entire design and balance structure was rather new. You can see how convoluted designing the powers and effects got if you check the CoD entries, especially when you consider that it's the first time the mode mechanic (which isn't used outside of Dual Blades; Sniper Rifle simply checks to see if a single power is turned on) was used.

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The thing, though, is that I don't specifically see this as a thematically appropriate thing for using dual pistols. Combos assume a barrage of hits, one after the other after the other. Now, with something like a belt-fed machinegun I can sort of see that, but handguns in general lack big enough clips to do this, and don't really lend themselves to being fired continuously.

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I don't see how you think a belt-fed machine gun would be more likely to be a combo set than dual pistols. The entire point of a belt-fed machine gun (aside from being a generally emplaced weapon) is that it doesn't have to stop firing. You just keep squeezing the trigger. That doesn't seem very combo-like to me. That's just using the same attack going constantly. Concerning reloading, that's a complete farce within this game. We don't reload the frankengun in AR. The existing pistol and firearm users never bother having to reload. Reloading in movies is almost always passed over quickly when in the confines of a fight (unless it's being used for a dramatic break in the fight or other storytelling purpose).

Keep in mind that "combos" doesn't mean "firing like crazy". Personally, I think that most of the attacks would only include firing a couple times at most. The cohesiveness and grace of the set would be more involved in the movements of the body itself, getting the pistol in line. Rather than just staying still and firing like crazy (re: assault rifle), the arms would actually be in motion.

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More than anything, and more based on how I've found handguns to work best in video games, to be honest, they work best in short burst and few shots at a time, dealing a lot of damage, then pulling back to reload.

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Something else to remember is that in 99% of video games, the pistol is also a bad weapon. It deals less damage than pretty much anything else, has worse range, and a smaller clip size than anything except for the crowd clearing guns. Considering this is talking about using a pair of pistols to the exclusion of any other firearm, it's not going to need to be crippled with similar comparisons. I'm also pretty sure that most players wouldn't want to stop to reload after every attack. People don't really want to stop attacking.

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If anything, I'd give it a Claws-like Follow-Up mechanic via a Reload power, but I don't believe that kind of small, frequent damage buff really works for a Blaster.

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Personally, I think it would work just fine. Blasters don't have to be alpha strike monsters. They operate just fine dishing out consistent damage over a long period of time rather than having discrete spikes of high damage. There's a reason why devices still works even though it lacks Build Up, and it's not that the bombs are supposed to make up for that (they don't in 90% of the situations). Blasters can work perfectly fine with sustained rather than burst damage, especially if they play intelligently.

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I remember reading not too long ago about a run that took down Ghost Widow without any Clear Mind, Clarity or Thaw on the team. They had multiple Dark Defenders and put so much debuff on her that she simply missed them. A lot.

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I ran a deathless STF (we didn't think about making it an MoSTF attempt when we started it) with my old SG with 7 controllers and a defender. It was an all rad STF and we all knew what to do. No CM. No Tank. Just loads of debuffs. We even took out LR with 2 of the towers up.

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If you could make the case that Dual Pistols was the same "theme" as Dual Blades, it would be a relatively straight-forward sell. But there's a circular dependency problem here, in that if the devs coincidentally agree with you, the argument is automatic, but if they don't agree with you, there's no obvious way to convince them to change their minds, because the very fact that they disagree with you (that the two sets are the same theme) automatically nullifies any arguments that rely on them being the same theme in the first place.

I don't think this would be an easy sell just because both sets have the word "dual" in their names.

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Honestly, I don't think the "dual" has anything to do with it, aside from the animations. Dual Blades has no reason outside of uniqueness to actually have combos. Logic would dictate that it would share the same secondary effect with the other blade powers, namely defense debuffing which it only gets in a single attack, because it's still using swords. Swords reduce defense. That's how the game sees it (at least from a thematic standpoint).

For the same reason, Dual Pistols, if it were assigned a secondary effect based exclusively off of basic theme, would do -def like all of the other guns in the game. However, I doubt that it will be given such a basic secondary effect so the problem comes into what will the set be given. The only "secondary effects" that would apply while also having some precedent in game and not duplicating existing available blast sets (which the devs have avoided for a long time) would be either Claws' (rech and end discount for powers) or Dual Blades. My money is on it being one or the other, unless they're going to be going with something completely different. We don't know how far the engine can go or what ideas the devs are tossing around so all we can do is look at what the game can currently accomplish and hope for one or the other.

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As to the analogy with Fire and Ice, those are conceptualizations on a different level. Fire and Cold as conceptual damage types have certain effects like Dot and recharge debuff associated with them, so powersets that incorporate those damage and concept types get those effects as a consequence. The association is with Fire and Cold, not with the powersets that use those effects.

To take a different example, Dark Melee was originally conceptualized as a lower damage, higher utility melee powerset. "Dark" itself tends to be associated with effects like tohit debuff and fear. The Dark Melee powerset thus has secondary effects that come from its association with Dark such as tohit debuff and fear, but it also has effects that are not always associated with Dark but are directly associated with the set specifically like endurance recovery and heals (neither of which Dark Blast possesses).

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I would still argue that Dark Blast and Dark Melee still fill a similar thematic set design niche, just like Fire and Ice do across different power sets. Both of the Dark attack sets (and Dark Miasma too) have a greater emphasis on utility and powers outside of the basic function of the power set. Dark Blast gets 3 control powers (Dark Pit = stun, Tenebrous Tentacles = immob, Torrent = KB) along with getting a self heal attack rather than a normal tier 3 blast. Dark Melee gets the fear, the self heal, and the end recovery power. Dark Miasma gets the fear, the hold, and the pet. All 3 of the sets have powers that are significantly outside of traditional role of the power sets groupings that they belong to. Along with the tohit debuffs, the extra levels of control and utility are thematically linked to the Dark power type.

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So a separate question would be whether combos are associated with "dual wield" or with the dual blade powerset itself specifically. That's a question that I'm not even sure the devs have thought about very much.

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Considering how much game play interest the Dual Blades combos have elicited, I would hope that the devs would at least consider having a ranged power set that shares a similar design. It would seem self defeating to create such an interesting game mechanic and put forth all of the effort to make it such a good system to simply abandon it to never be used again. Of course, designing a ranged set that uses combos would definitely have a greater design demand, which may be an obstacle, but one would assume that it's not outside the realm of possibility.

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i suppose Rus stands for russia? just asking.

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It's more likely Thugs-R-Us.

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Umbral, help me understand your calculations. I'm looking at numbers in Mids and the differ drastically from yours...or what I understand of yours.

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I'm checking damage contribution over the 10 second period for direct comparison of the total damage dealt by aura to the average damage of the proc, and then calculating best case of a single slot: SO damage or proc. Because the procs are unaffected by +dam of any kind, they're going to be a static contributor. It will add more comparative damage when you have less +dam available.

Everything you posted is the same as what I posted, except that I calculated for the period it takes for the proc to cycle whereas you calculated the average contribution for a single activation period.

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Incidentally, a PROC placed in Cloak of Fear averages the same damage as one placed in Death Shroud. Death Shroud ticks ever 2 seconds. CoF ticks every 5 seconds. Can we verify somewhere that tick rates do in fact play a part in these PROCs. It would seem Mid's is set up how I originally understood it work, where tick rate is irrelevant to the 10 second rule.

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The activation rates only matter where the activation time of the power is capable of evenly dividing 10. Because the procs check the targets of the proc, they activate simultaneously (or, more accurately, slightly later) with the activation. The real activation time disparity is demonstrated when you use World of Confusion (which is why I put it up there even though it's not on Scrappers) because it's not evenly divisible within 10. This is why the proc only checks once every 12 seconds whenever the power activates every third time.

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...
As much fun as it is trading horror stories of Mewbs, ...

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I never heard that term before, but know EXACTLY what you're referring to. That's just perfect!

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I like the term bAEbies too.

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The moment Dual Blades got combos, combos became effectively "off-limits" for anything else short of an act of god, because combos were The Cool Thing Dual Blades Got**.

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I'm actually curious about this. I understand why no other melee set would get combos because of Dual Blades' presence (with the possible exception of some type of Escrima or some other stick fighting power set), but I don't see any reason why a ranged set wouldn't be able to get combos. If the combos are considered to be the "secondary effect" of Dual Blades (which is how I've always interpreted it thanks to the lack of a cohesive secondary effect otherwise), then, because we've already seen secondary effects be shared across similar theme sets (all Fire sets lose utility and get mo' damage, Ice does -recharge, etc.), it would make sense for a ranged set to be able to use the combo mechanic as well, without taking anything away from Dual Blades.

Someone asked for maths? Maths time it is!

First off, some initial commentary:
The number of targets affected is irrelevant. If you're hitting 10 targets with the aura, you've got 10 potential hits with the proc.
Activation time is important. If the activation time is not evenly divisible by 10 seconds, you're going to have a delay because there is a 10 second downtime and the procs check against the targets hit by the proc. Ergo, if you've got a longer, not evenly divisible activation time, you're going to lose some effectiveness.
I'll be using a 20% chance for 71.8 damage as the proc for basis of comparison. It's the most common damage proc that I see flying around, so that's what I'm working with. The math is simple enough that, if you want to recalculate it for other proc chances or damage, you can with little effort.

First off, Blazing Aura. 2 second activation, 13.76 fire damage. Every 5 ticks of the aura, you're going to get a proc chance with the tick. That's 68.8 damage per proc chance. The proc does, on average, 14.36 (.2*71.8) damage. A single SO (33% +dam) is going to add 22.704 damage for the same time frame. The SO is better (until you hit red zone, as usual).

Next, Death Shroud. 2 second activation, 12.51 neg damage. Every 5 ticks, you'll get a proc chance with the tick. 62.55 damage per proc chance. 14.36 damage on average with the proc. SO adds 20.6415 damage. Advantage to SO.

Next we'll do Invincibility. 1 sec activation, no damage. Every 10 ticks, you get a proc chance with the tick. 14.36 damage on average with the proc. That means you'll get an extra 1.436 DPS. Pretty small contribution, but not bad, especially if you get a large number of targets around you.

Last one, World of Confusion. 4 sec activation, 7.51 damage. Every 3 ticks (12 seconds), you'll get a chance to proc. 22.53 damage per cycle. 14.36 average damage for the proc. SO adds 7.4349 damage. Advantage to the proc. Interestingly, whereas in all of the other situations, the proc adds 1.436 DPS, it only adds 1.1967 to World of Confusion thanks to the activation time disparity.

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The Defenders got a mediocre smash and impale damage resistance, but no help in defense and absolutely none for status effects; really bad rebalancing here.

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Coming from a Scrapper, I wouldn't call 40% res(s/l) and 30% res(psi) mediocre. I similarly wouldn't call 40% res(s/l) and 22% res(neg/tox), 40% res(s/l) and 30% res(nrg), or 45% res (s/l) mediocre. Those are huge amounts of resistance from a single toggle, especially considering that you're paying less than 25% more for it than a Tanker would for that same amount of resistance. You're actually paying less for each point of resistance than a Scrapper would. Defenders and Controllers got awesome APPs, so don't try to claim that Tankers and Scrappers, which both got very mediocre and generally anemic APPs thanks to their scalars, got awesome APPs and the disparity needs to be made up.

Something else to keep in mind, Defenders and Controllers were never meant to be taking punches to the face so they don't get the tools to resist facepunchery. Mez protection is one of the primary tools that exists to actually allow melee types to stand around in melee. Giving it to everyone would pretty much negate the vast importance of that.

And don't try to bring up the low damage of Defenders as a reason every AT should get a pool for mez protection (re: useless to Scrappers and Tankers). Defenders and Controllers already get better scalars or use out of the existing power pools. They don't need to get one added to address an issue unique to them.

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So basically, as far as mid to end game content goes, all other archtypes will outshine a blaster as far as surviveability and the basic ability to solo right?

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Depends on the build in question. If you build and play your blaster with the intent of soloing, you'll probably solo on par or better than a defender or controller (unless you're talking AV soloing, which is a completely different beast). I found soloing on my Earth/kin to be much annoying and slow than soloing on either my arch/mm or elec/nrg blaster. The same applies for my FF/sonic and rad/psi defenders (both of which are, admittedly, built for team play).