UberGuy

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If invuln scrappers were stepping on tank toes, how is it that Super Reflexes which gets defense vs. everything but toxic (which noone does) isn't stepping on the toes of a tank set that now has a harder time competing with it AND still has no defense vs. psionics (which SR does get).

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I really stopped reading your post here. This comes across as something along the lines of two dwarfs getting in a fight about whose legs are stubbier. If you meant "please make Ice tanks as least as defensive as SR Scrappers", you blew it. Instead you came across as "wait, you nerfed Inv Scraps for stepping on the toes of Inv Tanks - nerf SR now because they step on the toes of Ice Tanks!"

Yes, please. Ask for a nerf on what's probably the gimpiest Scrapper powerset so the gimpiest Tanker powerset sucks less in comparison.

If that's not what you meant to convey, you might want to recconsider how you word things.

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Like defenses stack, but a mixed attack (fire/smashing) will be defended by the higher of your defenses. If you had 45% Smashing and 20% fire defense, and are attacked with something that does both Smashing and Fire, it will have a resistance of 45% applied, not 65% (the combination of Smashing and Fire defence.)

This does not seem to impact stacking of a like defense at all.....and I imagine that there would be a huge outcry if that happened.

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Correct. One power that gives different defense % to different damage types now gives the best of the defenses against a given attack.

Two or more different powers that give defense % still add together whatever defense it is that each one gives.

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I understand what your saying, but the point is that a single defense isn't as good as a stacking defense, which is what Ice Armor did.

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Um... duh?

Look, the deal is... it was never supposed to do that.

Really. It's been screwing over Dark Melee for ages and they've been begging for a fix for months that I know of.

And there was a great cheer among them when geko recently posted that the bug did indeed exist and they were fixing it.

What you had here was a really light version of the old smoke grenade bug, except in that case something was 1000% as effective as it should have been instead of the 150-200% Ice (and Dark Miasma) has been getting. No, I don't understand why things like this take quite so long to find and fix, but they do. There is no consolation prize for this. Your power was broken to your benefit and they fixed it.

Note my sig - I get this "nerf" on one my Dark/Dark Defender. I also get the fix on my Ice Blaster, my EM Tanker, and my Dark Melee Scrapper.

If this screws Ice Tankers then put this energy into looking for ways of fixing Ice Tankers, not wishing for the broken mechanics back.

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Couldn't resist reading the rest of the thread before replying to this one first.. so sorry if someone has said this(Then again.. I seem to be the only person with this beef)


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No, I agree with you. The female hair options in particular need work. Only a few of them look decent, and even they have some odd problems. For example on a couple of the long hair models the inside back of the hair (behind the neck for example) does not render when viewed from the front.

So yeah, I'm picky about the hair too. And I'm I guy.

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First, while the game has not been out for a whole year, there have been people playing it for a whole year. It wasn't stated that the game has been out for a year, it was stated that people have been clamoring for new outfit options for a whole year. Now let's test the validity of that statement. I, for one, have in fact been clamoring for new costume options for an entire year. If one more person has been clamoring for new costume options for an entire year, the statement is absolutely true. Anyone else want to prove him wrong?

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By social and language convention, the statement "people have been doing X" implies that some significant fraction of people have been doing X. Not that one or two have been. The commonly accepted implication of the phrase is the X is somehow significant in that the number of people doing it is "large".

Taken in this context (and interpretation of language is the only context in which we can take a written phrase), the translation of the statment leads us to examine the importance of "X" - the number of people clamoring for new costume options (and the relative importance of that feature relative to others). And the posters here have made clear the opinion that this importance of costume options is a matter of hyperbole.

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Shift-# is used very, very frequently by anyone who needs to heal or buff teammates, or even just to use recall friend. Please leave that one alone.

As for ctrl-#... I don't use it all that much, and most of the time when I use it it is by accident and I have to figure out why my tray got switched. I would not mind seeing that combination being used for a third tray.

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Agreed on the buffing. Almost all the "buffers" I play with use that combo, and a few tankers (taunt/provoke indirect targetting).

Personally I *hate* the (current) control key binds. Left control is my voice comms push-to-talk. Nothing like talking in a fight and switching out your first tray! I wonder why it never occurred to be to null the binds...

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Mission 2; I ran into an "arch-villian" a level above me. I tried twice to even hit him; not a chance. The two shots he took at me drained half my hit points and killed me on my third try, this is nuts. (Stop Circles Sacrifice; Arch-Villian Envoy of Shadow level 36 (on above me); by Casao Kestrel)


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I don't think these are ever likely to go away. The presence of these creatures is fairly evident in many (though not all) mission descriptions, along with a suggestion to bring help. The best you are going to see here is a future improvement in the mission selection mechanism, along with a means of dropping missions you don't want after you've taken them.

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Whther or not you have fortitude on you and are SR will have little effect on how much damage you take when you do get hit.

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Fortitude provides +DEF, +ACC, +Damange, and +DR. "The targeted ally will even take less damage from those few attacks that do hit him."

SR I understand is all +DEF.

I must say none of my 40+ characters have a problem now with the bosses solo. The devastation these things lay out when you face them in groups is something to behold. You know, like when you play with a team or in a Trial.

I have to say that raising the bosses like this at 25 was nuts. A level 25 character is not prepared to deal with the raw power of these bosses. I had a same-level Tank swiper take my 29 SR Scrapper to 10% life in one shot with Fortitude running on him. My 26 Tank can solo one or two, depending on boss type, but it takes inspirations every time. You only get so many inspirations.

So I'll sorta miss the bosses on my 40+s (but only for solo play) and I can't wait to see them go on my 25-30s.

States,

Thank you. Not for the roll back. I mean thank you for that too, because I was for this, but thank you for listening to people here. It really does show an interest in your player's opinions. And I have to tell you that that feels great.

We all know we probably won't like everything you guys choose to do. But doing things like this tells us you probably did listen before you did it.

Thank you and your team!

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I am pretty sure the scrapper primary Dark Melee has a power which can drain endurance, can't speak for the rest.

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Dark Consumption from Dark Melee. It drains end from the mobs and transfers it to the Scrapper.

I think Soul Transfer does as well, but that's a self-revive in the Dark Armour set.

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Dark Consumption (and all fiery Consumption powers) damage the foe and give you endurance. They do not steal endurance from foes.

Based on it's description, I think Soul Transfer is the same, but I've never used it or seen it used.

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My mistake. Sorry.

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Come on, man! Someone with your post count should know everything.

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I am pretty sure the scrapper primary Dark Melee has a power which can drain endurance, can't speak for the rest.

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Several powersets have powers that hurt foes (moderately) to give you endurance. Only Kinetics and Electricity (edit: and Storm's lightning strike) actually drain it.

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Quick update:

I've been discussing things with various team members and I've got an "official" meeting today to kick around some ideas about this issue. With luck, I'll post later today - otherwise early next week.

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States: no matter whether we like the eventual idea or not, thank you for posting even these little "we're thinking!" updates.

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Ok, I'm sure no one wants me to say this. But in my opinion bosses are actually easier now than they were because of the increased endurance drain of powers. So, what if they hit harder and have more hp... If they have no endurance then all that is pointless, it just takes me about 30 seconds longer to kill them. I have an ele/eng blaster, and with a couple of snipes I can totally drain a boss of endurance, so all he can do is stand there. Just have to make sure I have a couple def buffs before I start the fight.

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Not to refute this, but the last time I experienced a end-locked Rikti Mesmerest, he spent 100% of his time firing his Mermerize attack, as apparently it costs him near zero endurance. As a result, he managed to break through the Mez resistance of a level 38 Invul Scrapper, pre I3.

So while I'm the very one who brought up end drain a little while ago (because I am sure it cuts out some of any boss's attacks), I know it's no silver bullet.

Edit: Besides, where in the notes did the endurance costs of attacks go up? Especially villian attacks?

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Where do they break down? My 37 Ice/FF Controller regularly does red and purple bosses. I can even do them without the use of a single inspiration although that makes the fight a lot longer. One example: last night I soloed a 40 Death Mage + 40 Guide. Fight was never in question. With proper slotting I can hold boss, do damage, summon pets and keep my toggles up indefinitely.

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I did open my statement with "in broad terms". But more specifically, do you have any powers besides Stamina for End reduction/recvovery? Have you slotted your powers for end reduction contrary to common practice?

This game allows for tremendous variation. Between powersets, power choices, number of slots and what you put in slots, two heros can perform radically differently. I'm not so foolish as to think my analysis covered every hero.

But in this very thread are other controllers describing running out of end before they could kill the boss. I've seen it happen to my controller buddies, too.

Maybe you've got a nicely optimized combination. And certainly Controllers are something of a weak discussion point on this, since it can be argued they aren't supposed to be able to solo at all (a concept even the devs seem to have rejected since they're looking at "petless" power sets).

But I don't think you can come along and say "ooh, ooh, I don't fit your pattern" and say that invalidates it. If a lot more controllers / blasters / defenders come in and say that they have no problem soloing bosses without the exception builds I mentioned then I'll admit my observations were in error. So far, most of this thread seems to back me up. My experience with Tankers may to be skewed - the ones I know had endurance issues soloing a boss, but posters here seem to counter that.

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It limits the amount of enjoyment I can get out of the game - either I have to set the slider down, making all other non-boss mobs trivial, or keep the slider high enough to make everything challenging and select non-boss mission only, or make sure there is a healer on the team.

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Quoted to stress that I think that this is a really important point.

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A suggestion - reduce bosses back to where they were, and introduce a new class of mob as powerful as the buffed bosses (ie, call it "Hunter" or "Assassin"). Make it optional for players to have these on their missions somehow, either via mission description or checkbox at the guy that sets mission difficulties. Maybe even a new AI, so it roams throughout the waypoint seeking the heros..... . Now, that would be amazing !

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A nice idea. I think it fits well with the idea of making "named" bosses really be elite bosses, and the "street" bosses you meet are really just "underbosses".

Your idea does additionally address getting named bosses by suprise, which is sucky solo.

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My earliest experiences with Power levelling were sitting in an alternate dimension bored out of my mind with 4-6 other people while a Spines Scrapper and Emp Defender killed the entire map (save enough to keep the mission from ending) and then repeated.

If a 6 person mission doesn't challenge 2 people then teaming is broken.

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It's a pretty simple prinicple. You take someone who can do damage. You add someone who can mitigate/prevent damage. You keep the mitigator in the background and send the buffed dealer in.

Now, because the damage dealer has mitigation/avoidance, he/she/it can, by definition survive more damage applied (or more attempts to apply it). More foes = more damage received. More avoidance/mitigation = less damage received. When more damage - less damage = damage the damage dealer could survive to begin with, you have achieved optimum effect.

If you can improve on this by increasing the damage the damage dealer can do, even better.

No matter what the devs do, this situation will always exist. They can change the form, they can change the numbers involved. So long as there is any wiggle room, people will optimize in this way.

Frankly, I don't understand why it's an issue. Playing this way is a choice. If you don't find it fun, don't play this way. Why, you could even play solo and avoid people who do this!

In broad terms, only Scrappers and Blasters have the damage outlay per unit endurance and unit time to defeat the current bosses.

For a same-level boss, these are my observations:

Defenders, as a rule, run out of endurance trying to damage the boss while maintaing self-buffs and foe debuffs, even if they have max-slotted attacks for damage. Defenders not heavily slotted for damage and with a means of heavily buffing themselves, badly debuffing the boss or mezzing the boss simply cannot win alone.

Controllers will run out of endurance holding the boss unless they are pet-enabled and can heavily enhance their pet damage output (/Rad and conditional use of /Kinetcs).

Tankers will run out of endurance trying to damage the boss. Barring this, the fight will be very long and boring.

Blasters have a real crapshoot, depending on how "controlly" their primary and secondary are, and how impressive the boss's ranged attacks are. Taking on a boss with ranged mez with no a) anti-mez inspirations or b) the ability to mez the boss are a guaranteed trip to the hospital. (Note that bosses, by design, open up with their mez attack first if they have one.) Blaster primaries that can do well - Electric Blast (bosses with no End are less scary), Energy Blast (bosses on their butt can't kill you), Energy Manipulation Secondary (Total Focus puts a heavy stun even on bosses). In short, if your alpha strike cannot incapacitate the boss you are probaby dead.

Note that certain APPs invalidate these conclusions once the hero hits level 41. My Dark/Dark Defender is able to defeat bosses by virtue of heavy damage slotting, holds, pets with holds and Conserve Power + 6-slotted stamina. (Without CP she ran out of end.) My Ice Blaster got a second hold power from Fire Mastery, so if he can survive the boss's response to the 1st hold he can immediately hold the boss (assuming he doesn't miss with one of the two holds - 2:20 chance).

Please show me where these analyses break down. Until then the statement that any AT can defeat an I3 boss comes across as nothing but hyperbole. Some builds in all ATs can solo bosses. But even then, in my experience, it's not more fun. It's just longer.

/emote gets popcorn

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Every time somebody says to you that the Devs promised solo AND team play, you keep replying as if people are demanding solo play to take priority.


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They are. They are trying to get a badly needed fix to team play removed on the grounds it prevents some people from soloing 100% of the games content. The only way one could ever justify such a position was if they considered this a solo game with an option to team if you want. This is the complete reverse of what Statesman has repeatedly stated as his vision for the game.

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Dude, please show me where this game a) had broken team play and b) this is the end-all be-all fix for it.

I play with as heavy a set of power gamers as you can find. About the ONLY thing we don't try to do is race to 50 - we all do missions and enjoy revealing the lore of CoH. We build the most powerful, min/maxed heroes we can because we think that's fun. Most of us never come to the forums for builds, either - we come for numbers and do the designs ourselves.

And we use good, sound team tactics when we play.

And we were having fun. We still could find the challenge in the game.

You are speaking about your opinion as though it was some hard fact. It is not. It was not. Your opinion is valid and you are welcome to it and to state it here. But stop wielding it like a sword to try and strike down the opinions of others.

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Solo play as an option does not mean being able to solo 100% or even 90% of all missions. It means there are always things you can do solo. There are and even if no one could ever solo a boss there will continue to be.

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If all people can do solo is street grind, and they want / need to solo, they will leave the game.

Honestly, the game lacks mission content. If there were enough missions to solo 90% of the time, most soloists would be happy. There could be 200% times that amount of content for teams - that wouldn't matter because the soloists could always do something.

Again I reference WoW. There is more content in WoW than any one person could ever see with one character.

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This thread is about a stated direction that soloing a boss would not be possible. For anyone.


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I have never seen this as a stated direction and it isn’t even close to being true. My understanding is that the devs want bosses to be tough fights that perhaps not everyone can do alone. In fact this has always been the case up until about level 20.

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Go read Statesman's quotes in this very thread. He states in one that even a Scrapper should not be able to solo a boss. If the "boss killer" AT can't, who do you expect can?

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Even with the new bosses almost every single combination of power sets can solo a boss, they are simply no longer pushovers that anyone can take with no real skill or effort.

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You sir, are full of a soft brown substance. Please go build me one of every AT / powerset combination, level it to 35, and solo a red boss for me. Then solo 5 in a row in a mission. Get back to me when you're done. Thanks.

Edit: borked quotes

Polar Knight, I bestow unto you stars!

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It is becoming more and more apparent that the real source of much of the discontent is coming from solo players who have appropriated 99% of the games content as their own despite the consistent position of the dev team that this was a team game first and foremost. These people then become outraged when told that not all the content in the game was aimed at them.

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You are horribly misuinterpreting most of the posts in this thread.

What people want and incredibly appreciated about CoH was that solo play was an option.

I am convinced that most CoH players group when they can. They are either virtual extroverts and like to team up with others or they are playing with real-life friends (my scenario).

What people want is the option we've had so far of playing alone when a) we are not extroverted, b) on with none of our friends or c) on only briefly. That's the part in the quoted description above about "casual friendly".

Finding a team is not casual. Playing with a team of strangers is almost never casual. Being the team leader of strangers is often stressful if you're responsible about it. I have had leadership online competitive teams. I don't want that stress in CoH. I want the casual part to be there. I'll group with my friends often. But I want the chance to run around and read all the story I can find on my own, at my own pace and at my own schedule. If that's hard, that's fine with me. I just want it to be possible.

The people in this thread who think this is about having everything handed to them are idiots. This thread is about a stated direction that soloing a boss would not be possible. For anyone. And compounding this, despite a statement it should not be so the game puts bosses in missions constantly. Those two things mean you cannot count on ever being able to solo anything. That != casual.

This is not about what we have now. It's not about hard bosses. About possible to defeat bosses. About bosses that are possible to defeat, in theory, for all ATs. (Note I do not say all builds - just as an example many team-oriented Defenders lack offensive punch).

Actually, it occurs to me that making a boss butt-hard but possible for an offensively built Defender to take might make a useful benchmark.

For those of you who couldn't find challenge before the boss change, I'm sorry but you weren't trying. Try pulling 5 groups and figting them all. Try that with the Slider. If you can't get someone on your team killed without these bosses you just aren't pushing your characters. I found the limits that would kill my pre-nerf Regen and Invul Scrappers, and I did nothing from then on but play there whenever I could. That was fun.

Edit: broken italics

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Let’s face facts here. In the long run a subscription based MMO cannot survive catering to a solo audience because it offers nothing that you can’t have in a standalone game. This means team play needs to come first and have greater scope then solo play. This isn’t to say a degree, even a large degree of solo play is not a nice addition, but it cannot outweigh team play.

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That's funny. WoW seems to cater to solo play and do quite well for itself. It's good for CoH that I don't have a lot of interest in the WoW universe or in PvP.