UberGuy

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Here's what we'll do: Wet Ice will no longer accept Def Enhancements. We'll increase the base def somewhat. Def Enhancements that are currently slotted will continue to have an effect, but players won't be able to slot new Def Enhancements into it.

We're also adding resistance to Toxic in Permafrost to bring it into line with Invulnerability's Resist Elements.

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How bizzare. Some Ice Tankers just got rare loot.

Depending on what the base value is I see some IT's never wanting to remove those enhancements. I assume they won't be able to replace them though if they expire due to levelling, so the handful of level 50 Ice Tankers with DEF slotted EA just got something unique that no one else can have...

I agree with others that I do not understand the universal removal of your stealth and the suppression of the defense.

What is the point of a higher defense value at all? It literally serves no valuable purpose. Any time defense comes into play you are guaranteed in all but the most unusual of circumstances to be under attack by an opponent that knows you are present. This means you gain the benefit of the higher defense only until:

*) You are hit once (where did this come from???)
*) You use any power that affects a foe in any way.

This combination of scenarios completely eliminates the worth of the higher defense value. In effect the only combat value of these powers is the lower defense value.

Either (pure) stealth powers should consistently provide some defense bonus or they should provide none - with an appropriate reduction in endurance cost. Having them provide a defense bonus that only matters when nothing can see you anyway makes no sense.

Finally, I don't see much value for stealth powers at all if it's supressed for all purposes when you attack. In missions the ability to stave off dealing with a second mass of mobs is practically the only use of stealth powers. This change will relegate them almost completely to travel powers (at which the pool power versions somewhat suck, since they slow foot speed.)

As usual it would be nice to understand the motivation for the change. Most of us seem to understand the %DEF reduction but not the suppression and the 1/2 DEF.

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Id rather them tweak the ETC's exp up so that people try and build tactically balanced teams than dumb them down and remove their powers altogether. Put a cap on how many quicksands they can drop, have the power go away when the mob dies, etc, but dont remove it entirely just because its difficult.

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I have no problem with their current power selection. It's the stacking that I consider a problem. The post above about using the DE emenator code (or whatever was done to Tsoo for that matter) would help considerably.

Last week I met spawns of 5 Thorn Casters in a two man team. That's a lot of Quicksands.

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Just a quick note since this is a hot topic. Regarding the issue of Earth Thorn Casters stacking multiple Quicksands (and such).
Without getting into details, ALL CoT Thorn Casters have been reworked. The amount of control powers these minions have will be severely reduced or outright removed. Expect other related changes with all Thorn Casters.

This change will come in Expansion 5.

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There is also another group in the game that behaves the same exact way as Thorn Casters, Knives. They throw multiple caltrops which have the same slowing/holding powers as quicksands. I think it would be a reasonable idea to consider them as well.

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Just to be clear, Quicksand is -spd, -jump -fly -def.

Caltrops is -spd, -jump, minor DoT.

Moreover, KoA minions don't have very dangerous ranged attacks and they have no AoEs at all. ETCs have the AoE stalagmite attack, throw boulders (with knockdown) and expressly retreat to perform ranged attacks (while KoA minions close to melee).

While I wouldn't complain if KoA caltrops were made less silly, I have never been threatened by even the most preposterous stacking of Caltrops. I have died a number of times to the revised ETCs. I thank the heavens that they only exist for a 5-level range.

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I think they should. But I really get the sense that they are going to spring it on us when I5 goes to test.


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Of course, the surprise is supposed to be part of "the fun".

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Nerf one hero and you're a villian.
Nerf a million heroes and you're an archvillian.
Nerf them all and you're a god...

I also prefer Galaxy. I usually burn my way to level 10 or so in a few hours of play. There are plenty of baddies right there, the "stores" and trainer are readily accessible (mostly flat zone), the train is nearby... and Atlas is just a bit too bustling.

Plus, for whatever reason I prefer the small gathering area of Freedom Force Plaza to the front of City Hall.

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Alone in my Invincible mission, (warehouse tileset) I clicked one of those garage door sliding doors that opened to reveal no less than 5 LT + crouching Minion pairs, all standing within about 10 feet of the first glowie.

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Not sure if you knew this or not Uberguy, but you don't have to save all of the tanks in that mission. I think I saved 3/4 and I still completed it without a catch.

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I figured when I didn't lose after the 1st failed one. I reset out of a combination of not knowing how much leeway that left me and being stubborn.

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What really got me was that click 8 glowies simultaneously mission. I spent 40 minutes getting a team of 8 people together just to click glowies. While one was in route a scrapper accidently clicked on it, and the "simultaneous" number went down to 7.

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Holy ew, Batman. What mission is that?

It's also possible to go a completly Machen route with it, where the fae folk of old legend were driven into hiding and, bereft of sunlight and the other good things of the surface world, degenerated into things of unspeakable awfulness. Or, depending on the story, were always things of awfulness that mankind intentionally forgot by masking them with tales of glory.

Or they could just be taking major liberties with it.

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Nah, no wories. I'm noth that easy to set off and I suck at holding grudges.

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Goddamnit. We're going to agree now, aren't we?

That never works on the intarweb.

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Since this has been nothing but one continuous hijack anyway...

When did you grow a new forum title?

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How something reads is not always how it is intended, and I'm not really able to take responsibility for every single turn of phrase that somehow hits me the wrong way. I'm not trying to make anything into a declaration of all-out war, either.

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Nah, no wories. I'm not that easy to set off and I suck at holding grudges.

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It would simply be nice to have more distinctiveness for both. Please refrain from telling me what I want, but you are certainly free to suggest what might be a better idea.

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Christ, get over yourself. If you can't get past a figure of speech like that let me know now so I can add you to my ignore list. I don't have any use for drama-ridden BS responses like that when I'm having an otherwise civil conversation with you.

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That wasn't even close to drama. I'm sorry, but saying "What you really want is..." feels condescending to me. So, I commented on it.

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You apparently have a much more narrow definition of drama than I. You took exception with how I worded something and made a passive-agressive statement marking clear displeasure. In the middle of an otherwise intelligent exchange of ideas I take that as a highly emotional and extremely unproductive diversion.

With all due respect, as someone who is as active here as you are I would think you would have a much stronger filter for the specific wording someone uses in forum posts.

No condescention was intended.

I've experienced two missions where there was no chance in hades of protecting the object. One was the "other" Outcast auction mission that has destructo glowies in it. After laying out a careful plan for how to deal with the foes and keep them off the glowie, my team of three, which was a Blaster, a Tanker and a Controller, took action. As soon as we had aggro the foes (which included a red boss - this was just after I2 and the insane numbers of +2 bosses you got) turned on the glowie to a man and fired ranged attacks on it. It died instantly.

The other was just a couple of weeks ago. It was, admittedly on invincible. The mission was recently changed, becuase it never used to have a exploding glowie in it - it's the "Learn about Nemesis plans" mission that you get as the introductory Nemeisis mission. They made gas cannisters that Nemesis is going to unleash be things you have to protect rather than click on and destroy.

Alone in my Invincible mission, (warehouse tileset) I clicked one of those garage door sliding doors that opened to reveal no less than 5 LT + crouching Minion pairs, all standing within about 10 feet of the first glowie.

I actually called for help from my SG, and even with the aid of a Taunting tank we could not stop them from attacking the cannister. One actually ran from the two of us and shot it from range. We lost the cannister and I reset the mission. On return it spawned such that it was on the near side of that sliding door with only one group standing near.

The idea of the missions is fine, but they:

*) Don't scale the objects appropriately with team size. In general taking a team of 3 or more is asking to fail
*) Don't scale the objects appropriately with difficulty slider. (Yeah, the slider should make it harder to save the glowie, but a +2 or +3 boss can defeat them in a heartbeat).
*) Mysical, magical patrolling mobs are vaguely unfair in combo with the glowies. CoH is basically about fighting as a close-knit team. Should someone have to stay behind and guard a a glowie you found four floors ago?

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It would simply be nice to have more distinctiveness for both. Please refrain from telling me what I want, but you are certainly free to suggest what might be a better idea.

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Christ, get over yourself. If you can't get past a figure of speech like that let me know now so I can add you to my ignore list. I don't have any use for drama-ridden BS responses like that when I'm having an otherwise civil conversation with you.

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Funny how I have seen inv tanks without tough hide die to stuff that tanks with tough hide surivived because they didn't get hit.

The only difference in these tanks was the prescence of tough hide. With it they survived more.

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Yeah, and maybe they had more coffee that morning. That's just not a convincing argument.

I have tried that power on my Scrapper and my Tanker, and after that and after reading up on testing by posters I trust to do things well, I dropped them like hot rocks.

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Guess Knives and Chimera's troops are not done by you or the shadow shard tfs.

Those are so far from the hospital and the battle so hectic a battlefield rez such as Rise of the Phoenix is most accepted.

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First of all, I fight Knives all the time. My Regen charater is my "see all the content" character, and I do every single mission with her. Every one of my contacts is maxed barring the ones the came out after I'd leveled past them. So I'm sorry your Regen Scrapper apparenly finds KoA a source of constant faceplant. I do not.

Yes, I considered the Shadow Shard. (You'll notice I did mention two other timed, far from hospital trials). I'm sorry, there's no way I'm going to expend a whole power slot to faciltate the dificulties in three task forces. That leaves 99.9999994% of the game wher such a power is of extremely limited use. That you would even suggest that taking such a power is good for anything but concept/fun is reasonable boggles my mind.

I never said the powers had zero utility. I said that that utility is so specialized, so rare, and so opposed to what I want to be experiencing (defeat) that any other power is a superior choice. Opportunity costs rule my builds. If you take that power you haven't taken something else that could have been more useful or interesting.

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You obviously don't understand where a regen revive would be of use. If they made it so the regen was unable to be hit and could slap on their toggles revive with MOG would be very usefull for large battles.

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Way to come off with a suprior attitude.

How about... when they die somewhere that:

*) The hospital is really far away
*) You don't have a rez or you are dying so much that you don't have enough of them
*) You don't have anyone along who can rez you

Let's look at those.

Outside a team I basically die rarely period. On a team big enough to get me killed with any consistency it's extremely common to have a rez-capable character or just have enough rez inspirations laying around to be gotten up. I can't tell you the last time I died more than maybe 4 times in one mission, and that is vastly more likely with my Defender or Blaster than any of my Scrappers. I don't play conservatively but I do play smart. I don't die a lot.

So, I die rarely, when I do die I can probably be rezzed, and the vast majority of the time that I die and can't be rezzed a hospital trip will take 30-60 seconds.

So to cover the times those things aren't true I should take a power that I can't use at all in any other situation?

Sorry, no.

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I don't know if its been mentioned (too many posts for me to look at) but if anyone has read Harry Potter or played WoW it mentions Red Caps little fairy imp type creatures (which are from Harry Potter) and Fir Bolgs which is in WoW. Did they steal some ideas?

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Heh. Sure. Like Marvel stole Thor and Hercules.

I'm pretty sure thousand-year-old (and more) myth cycles have exceeded the limits on trademark.

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I really could care less that defenders are shaing their powersets with blasters and controllers.

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This is gonna be a bit nitpicky, but why is it assumed that Archey and Sonic blast sets were originally meant for Defenders? Ranged blasts are a Blaster primary, so whose to say that Blasters aren't sharing them with Defenders and not the other way around?

Told ya it would be nitpicky didn't I?

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Because Statesman has indicated he's aware that defenders don't feel needed in the late game, and he indicated that the Sonic Debuff and Trick Arrow sets were going to defenders.

People have wanted for a long time (since launch, I would say) to have more defender-only primaries and controller-only secondaries. I don't think it's ever been a loud issue, but it seems to be a constant issue.

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I've got to say that having powersets that are unique isn't a good enough reason to have a team want a Defender instead of a Controller. If they did, that implies to me that even on Defenders that power set is superior to the other sets, meaning only Defenders with the new set would get the love. I'm not sure you want to "fix" the perceived high-level game by adding in "golden child" Defender sets.

What you want is for Defenders to be meaningfully better at using their primaries than a Controller. You never see people asking for a Defender or a Tanker to increase the damage output of the team. Likewise they really shouldn't be asking for a Controller to increase the defense/buffs/debuffs of the team.

The trick is doing that without making Controller secondaries very gimpy indeed.

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The absence of a toxic damage type at launch is borderline inexcusable, but I imagine other things took precedence.

What surprises me is the lack of ability to add new damage types to the game without monkeywrenching the code.

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It always wigs me out, too. I didn't get the idea that it was a lot of actual code being changed, but rather tables of attributes for various powers. In either case, it seems ... painful.

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In fact a force field defender often is capable of doing the most blasting. I don't find being a force field defender being boring. I find it the most opportune time to use my blasts to increase the damage output of the team.

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This makes an awful lot of sense to me, and I was wondering about it through a lot of the subthread here. I'm glad it really does work out that way in practice.

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I have played the mission over twenty times. From release to now. Never have the objects been destructable.

You get the ring of pain and scroll of ruin from that mission.

It has Hellions, Tsoo, COT and an outcast boss named Sno-Pac.

I played it when Issue 4 came out as well.

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Ok, that's a different mission. There's one where the Outcasts have taken over an auction house and are holding 4 objects "hostage" because the owner did business with and then betrayed them. There are no other factions in the mission.

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Tough Hide doesn't suck. Trust me when you get defense debuffs piled on you Tough Hide helps to counteract the defense debuffs.

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Most reliable testing puts this power at around 5% defense with questionable stacking with Invincibility. That's not worth it compared to any other power in the set or many pool powers you could take (and slot) instead.

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Self-rez? The fire armor for tanks and fire epic for blaster self rez knocks and stuns the mobs and makes the person inv for ten seconds. This would allow the fire tank or fire blaster to get back in the fight.

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These powers are so utterly conditional I have never and will never take them. Yeah, they can rock when you die. On a team. With a time constraint or really far from the nearest hospital.

My entire strategy is not to die (or to let anyone else die). I refuse to spend power slots on a power that is predicated on a condition that all my other powers and slotting are designed to prevent. I could instead take another power that will improve my not dying.

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Just set the fire armor rez to auto. The damage it causes and stun would keep agro on the fire armor tank so the team doesn't get slaughtered.

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Again, there are so many more effective ways to do this that don't involve getting defeated that I really don't see the point.

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The regen revive? A regen that teams a lot could find use for it.

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I'm not sure you're helping you case here. Hell, the most stupid and aggressive blappers I've ever known did fine going to the hospital or using inspirations. Why on earth waste a power on something you can cover with inspirations?

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As long as the self rez has a major aoe stun or makes you inv long enough to get away or put on your defenses or resists then they are quite usefull.

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Again, based on the predication that you are going to need this. Why would I need to rez on the spot? I have experienced two cases where self-rezzes are actively useful. The Respec Trial and the Sewer Trial. Never once outside that.

I consider them novelties for level 50 heroes that had no useful powers to take at 49.

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Outcast Timed Auction Mission. The objects are not destructable. They are glowies.

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Not the last four times I've played it.

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Way to be juvenile. "I bet you can't name 3 obscure powers from a power set you don't play! That reduces the validity of your opinion!" Whatever, man.


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I was pointing out that when a player with as much time in game doesn't know what 2/3's of a set does it probably doesn't do anything useful. It wasn't an attempt to belittle you or reduce the validity of your opinion, sorry if it came off that way. Just making a point that no one knows and no one really cares.

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Personal Force Field, Force bolt, Repulsion Bomb, Repulsion Bubble and Force Bubble. Which did I miss? I didn't look them up though I can't prove it. I have 3 FF characters (1 Def, 2 Controllers) in my SG. Of them all the only one I consider useless as someone who played along side the Defender/Controller is Repulstion Bomb. Yeah, knockback is a pain in the [censored]. It's part of the game. People deal.

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If 1/3 of your power set blows ask for it be fixed instead of clamoring that the Defender lines that may not be broken should be made so.

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I don't know what you're talking about in terms of defender lines, but as far as asking devs to change it I have. I've been doing it since November. I've made posts in test, general, issues and suggesitons, controller forum archetype and powers forum, and the defender forum(numerous numerous times, ask around my force field cynicism is infamous). The only response I've received, even after an incredibly civil 100+ post discussion on force fields was from a PM Statesman replied to from someone else, and THAT person posted it on the defender forum. A single sentence(that was posted at least) said something like "we've got our eye on it".

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It's awesome then that you're taking up the cause, and I do hope it gets you improvement. The problem I have is people pointing to the other Defenders that might actually have a full slate of useful powers and asking that they be nerfed for it.

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Indeed, but the "lesser used" powers should never comprise a majority of the powerset.

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No argument. Note though that this is completely different from the "working" powers in your set actually being useful or not. If you have 5 crap powers and 4 amazing powers, the sum total can still be effective and useful.

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And of course the one thing that it is supposed to do, provide excellent defense, it does with exceptions that continually increase as you level up.

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While strictly true, don't over state this. The only foes you are absolutely useless against are Carnie bosses (which suck fairly universally), Rikti Metalist/Mesmerists, and the occasional Psionic AV. Rikti are totally manageable, IMO. I have lots of experince being butt naked defense-wise around them with my Scrapper. Carnie bosses and Psi AVs just suck for us. Like I said, I hate that mechanic too.

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If you think I don't know what I'm talking about somewhere in my posts, how about you point it out? Call me on something. Try me.

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Ok, in your reply to me you mentioned the "Welcome to" phrase 8 times in order to illustrate the that other powersets have those weaknesses. The problem is that force field has ALL of those weaknesses. Welcome to Force Fields.

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I've no idea how that equates to me not knowing what I'm talking about. But lets try this. What other Defender set can provide as much "fire-and-forget" defensive capability against probably at least 99% of the attacks that come the way of their team with just 3 powers in their primary?

None. Not even close.

Whether you're broken isn't a matter of how many useful powers you have. It's not a question of how many other Defender capabilities you have. It's a question of whether or not you can do your job (assisting the team) with the powers and limitations you DO have.

Can the set be improved? I'm sure it can. Maybe it's too boring. Maybe it's too specialized. But it is not useless and it is not utterly broken, and my problem is with the assertion that it is broken and my God, all those other Defenders have it so much better. Like so many things, the "truth" depends on your metric. My metric is "do they help me win", and the answer in all cases but Psionic damage is yes.

As prone as I am to say soemething like "Mmm, Fortitude" or "Mmm, Speed Boost" I am just as likely to react in exactly the same way about getting Bubbles. I know for a fact that unless I'm facing a few specific foes that I am nigh-indestructable with an attentive bubbler on my team. And I can't accept that as completely broken.

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Yes, Rad and Dark do work in a team mission setting. I hotly contest any assertion that they are "better" than FF. FF may be less entertaining to play. That's an incredibly subjective assertion and I'm not going to debate it with anyone. But don't tell me that they have lower utility to the team. It's not true.

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It's far more than less entertaining, it's also incredibly less useful.

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Blatant falshood. (The less useful part at least.) Unless the foe is such that the added defense is completely negated (only true with the most extreme level differences, Nemesis with heavy Vengeance stacking, or DE Quartz) your players are immune to nearly everything that most foes throw at them. Even if mezzed by a Psi attack, most other attacks will miss them until they wake up.

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We bring no innate heals and have to waste a power pool just to get aid other(an interruptible short ranged long timer heal)

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I've taken a "healer" to a Force Field fight. I felt pretty damn useless. Getting heals on a FF Defender is a "nice to have". If you didn't like the pool power then you should have skipped it.

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no endurance boosts

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Welcome to Storm and Dark

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no accuracy buffs

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Welcome to Kinetics, Storm, Rad and Dark

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no damage buffs

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While they get one, I think most Storm Defenders aren't really enamored of theirs.

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no crowd control other than knockback

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Welcome to Kinetics.

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no pets

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Welcome to everyone but Dark, and by some measure Storm.

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no sleep protection

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Oh, but wait, you get every other mez type. And unlike any other Defender in the game, you can give yourself mez protection.

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no resistance buffs

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No, but you can make your teammates unhittable except in a few well known situations.

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no resistance debuffs

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I counted these in damage buffs above.

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no auras

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This is a separate category from all these other things you're listing?

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and the coup de grace the force fielder is the WEAKEST and LEAST PROTECTED person on the team and seldom benefits from any of their own powers.

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Welcome to being an Empathy or a Kinetics Defender.

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On ice tankers and SR scrappers FFers do almost nothing.

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Yeah, and healers don't do much for Regen, DR buff powers don't do much on Invul and some Dark characters.

Besides - there aren't that many SR Scrappers and Ice Tankers out there.

So, basically you provided a list of every possible Defender power that FF doesn't have and listed them. I've pointed out that except in one case at least one other Defender Primary also lacks them.

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I've played have a rad and dark defender as well as a kin and storm controller. FF is far far worse than all of them, particularly post lvl 40

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Based on what? I mean my God, at least back statements like this up. I have over and over explained how things like runners, phasers, knockback, accidental aggro, and other effects make it hard at best to make good use of Dark or Rad as defensive power sets. Explain in exact terms what, besides the kryptonite of Psi damage, is so bad about Force Field. Toxic we expect to be changed, and untyped is also either a bug or Hamidon, who nothing helps with.

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against anything with psi, untyped, autohit damage, or toxic damage(yay 25% unenhanceable resistance) which have become much more pervasive in the game since launch.

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We covered this. I agree that this is crap. This is crap because it's a bad design and it's badly designed in other power sets as well. It needs to be fixed in all of them.

Any situation that invalidates an entire powerset sucks.

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Furthermore the knockback powers which I assume were meant as an added measure of control do almost nothing and frequently just irritate the scrappers and tankers.

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Welcome to the life of Energy Blasters and Martial Arts Scrappers.

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We have the big 3(insulation, deflection, and dispersion), the rest are superfluous fluff that serves no real point than to fill in the other 6 powers.

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Welcome to about 1/2 the power sets in the game. I'll agree with you that this shouldn't be the way this works. However, I'll continue to disagree with you on the merits of the good powers you do have.

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Btw since you know defenders so well, without looking them up, what are the other 6 powers besides those three fields? I'm just curious how many you know or how many you have used since you seem to know better than FFers what we are capable of.

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Way to be juvenile. "I bet you can't name 3 obscure powers from a power set you don't play! That reduces the validity of your opinion!" Whatever, man.

If you think I don't know what I'm talking about somewhere in my posts, how about you point it out? Call me on something. Try me.

Sorry, buck-o, but I didn't base my opinion on the lesser used powers. I based it on your "big three" and Dispersion Bubble. Yeah, all your powers should not suck. Tough Hide shouldn't suck. Self-rez power shouldn't suck. Crippling Axe Kick shouldn't suck. Resilience shouldn't suck. If 1/3 of your power set blows ask for it be fixed instead of clamoring that the Defender lines that may not be broken should be made so.

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Which two defender primaries are better than all the rest, and which two ATs are better than all the rest? Just curious; I honestly can't imagine what those two might be.

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Rad and Dark. Dark can do everything except boost your endurance and comes with pets, rad can do everything except free you from mez(though it does halve your mez duration).

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Just to be clear, last time I checked Dark can't clear mez or help you resist it. Dark can't help you attack faster. Dark can't give you any DR against fire or cold. Dark can't give you DR, Defense or Damage buffs that go with you wherever you are, meaning to get benefit from the Dark Defender you must go to places in the battle that the Dark Defender alone determines. If you need or chose to battle foes outside those dilineated areas the Dark Defender does zilch for you.

All the same restrictions are true for Rad except that Rad can give you a damage and attack rate buff. Rad is also a crappy healer compared to everyone except Force Field.

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The two AT's that are far better than the others are Controllers post 32 and Tankers in their current state. Nothing can really compete with tankers in terms of damage to be taken(rightly so) but also damage able to be dealt(thinking mostly of energy, fire(primary), and axes here as I don't have much experience with others)

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That is waaaay subjective. I think you may be the first person I've seen in months claim that Controllers are a runaway AT.

Tankers is a tough call. I do not consider them "the best" AT by any even remote stretch of the imagination. I do think they are awfully tough in practice. I am loath to see the devs modify Tanker toughness because I consider it likely to cause a totally undesirable ripple effect into the survivability of every AT except maybe Blasters. Moreover, I see it possibly having an effect on damage dealing balance for Scrappers and Blasters.

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The code for "Defense" against Toxic does not exit *yet*. Positron or Geko told us this alreayd.

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That's good news, and makes more sense. The absence of toxic defense just doesn't follow thematically. Not for a force field.