UberGuy

Here's a question. I know that Futurias and Ilr have touched on this, but it really hasn't come up specifically.

In the past I have seen suggestions that mobs resist debuffs as a function of their damage resistance. This would relate to the specific example of Nightstar being largely unaffected by Darkest Night, possibly as a function of having a high DR to negative energy.

Do we have any verification or quantification of this effect? It would be fairly easy to test in the arena using a Dark Amor Scrapper, and maybe a /Regen Scrapper as a non-resistant damage soak. (In fact, /DA would be decent for testing with Rad Infection, too).

In particular I ask because this would be a good reason to shrink the rank-dependant auto-resistance to toHit debuffs - AVs that already have damage-type-based resistance will have really severe overall resistance if this is the case.

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Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.

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Abstract like "rebalanced the kora fruit"?

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Yeah, that's sadly a great example. Not sure where that came from, unless it was a placeholder that got left in. My vague understanding is that the autogenerated notes are some sort of tagged code comment.

You are correct sir. Used to thinking of it as a defensive power, I forgot this.

That is fairly interesting. Anyone have player-tested numbers on RI? I thought the 18.5 DN value was pretty well established by players.

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States used 31.25% for RI in his example. I highly doubt that there is such a big different between RI and DN. Something is wrong..

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Are we sure? As discussed, Darkest night does more than debuff toHit - it is a significant damage debuff. To my knowledge, RI debuffs only toHit.

Dysmal, I agree with you. I was specifically answering MonkeyB's commentary on how doing the same would result in loss of a job. Well, I don't think the two rally can compare.

Should they do this right? Yes. However, complaining for people to lose jobs when they're doing something they don't have to do at all is just stupid and does us no damn good. IMO. They could just not bother much. They could make all the patch notes completely abstract. They wouldn't be the first people to do so.

There's a difference.

This isn't anyone's job. There are two community reps: Cuppa and Awry. No one else has to come here and tell us squat.

That they do rocks. That they don't get it right sucks. That they have promised to get it right and not done so sucks. I want it to get better, bad and right now. But it just ain't their damn job.

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Do the debuffs from TG and FS stack?

If so, those recharges folks put into FS for stacking the fear component (the debuff lasts longer than the fear) are making dark into an even bigger monster. And if, like me, you also slot TG for recharge ...

Folks in the know have sought out DDs for AVs ever since dark miasma became playable. There often isn't time to get everything out when a team is mowing down minions and lieuts, but the longer a fight goes, the more powerful dark gets.

Edit for clarity: do FS and TG stack with themselves? I.e., can 2 FSes stack?

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I know that Twilight Grasp's damage debuff stacks with multiple applications. I would therefore assume that the toHit debuff does also.

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So say you put Fluffy on the AV, keep one application of FS on him at all times (the debuff duration is unenhanceable), put Darkest Night on him, and between you and fluffy have two TGs on him at all times. Now let's say it's all 3-slotted for debuffs.

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There's only one problem with this, you don't "put dark fluffy" on anything.

We have no control over it directly.

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I summon it on top of things whenever I can.

I'm with you, Concern. I think this breaks Dark less than it does anyone else. It doesn't mean I don't think it's a problematic change even for Dark and I'd like it tweaked, but I agree with you.

Quizzles, sorry, I was speaking of just using DN. Like I said, stacking the debuffs is incredibly potent in I7. I didn't know the toHit debuff values for most of the non-DN powers, so I didn't try to run an analysis.

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AV's resist damage Debuffs HEAVILY, there's something definintely wrong with your math if you actually believe an AV's DPS will be put at 43% from a single Defender.

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You're right. I left the resistance to the damage debuff part out, though not the toHit debuff.


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You need 3 or 4 of the same kind of defenders to Floor +2 and +3 AV's, nomatter what primary you're talking about.

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Just to be clear, I did not describe flooring the AV anywhere in my post. Nor did I use a +3 AV as my example.

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Have you even spent any real time in all-defender Teams?

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All Corruptor.

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Your rosey tinted glasses suggest otherwise, expecially when you consider each Defender's -ACC capacity with 3 SO's will drop by 40% as soon as this patch goes live.

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You would do well to realize that the accuracy numbers I used are based on I7 math, using the reduced schedule enhancers. The tables I pasted match Statesman's to the 2nd decimal place if you use the value for RI and two shcedule B toHit debuff enhancers instead of DN and 3 (which is what I did).

Your feel for what it takes to floor AVs doesn't mean much here. Your experience is all based on today's toHit calculations, which are significantly different. Stacking toHit debuffs is incredibly powerful in I7.

Correcting my earlier statements to account for 20% damage debuff resistance on a +2 AV.

So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .6016/.9*(1-(0.8*.35)) = 48% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 17.48% of his original damage output.

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(As an aside, TG may have a -ACC debuff, but I know you can't slot for it. Usually I've gotten the target's *damage* debuffed by that time and they are still hitting. So it will take some verifying on that.)

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Purely continuing the aside, it can indeed be slotted for that.

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If Debuffs are being dropped/limited to within the sight of Defense (which they are) the difference of buff versus debuffing has to be looked at very hard.

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I agree, because the debuffing "rolls off" while defense no longer does.

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They are dramatically different in application, but now they are being treated more equaly *numerically* and debuffing is being made weakened so that you can't hit the minimum 5% as easily.

This is both good, and bad. Good, because it's not going to be overpowering in the cases where you do have that "primary" mitigation. It's no longer good in that you can't for sure flatten someone's chance to hit you (and their mezz) like you used to be able to do so.

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I do understand this, and agree. I do want to point out that I don't think we've been able to floor much of interest in a very long time. Not with Dark Miasma.

That was me. I fixed it.

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Twighlight Grasp debuffs Damage and Regeneration, not Accuracy or ToHit.

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Twilight Grasp also debuffs toHit. It is a strong effect - I notice it often.

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Dark Miasma only provides "fear" protection, which doesn't drop toggles. Inequality on mezz protection in this case is *very* important.

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While I don't argue your point here, this is true of all toggle based "Defender" sets.

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With this change, debuffers will only ever be able to *assist* a primary mitigation power set (tanks, scrappers or Sonic/FF) on large teams. They can not even attempt to fill those same roles, even if you had a couple of debuffers.

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Nor can they today.

Look at these I7 numbers, based off the notion that DN is a 0.185 base debuff to toHit.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Lev/Rnk : Normal -&gt; Debuffed
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+0 Minion: 50.00% -&gt; 20.40%
+0 LT : 57.50% -&gt; 26.86%
+0 Boss : 65.00% -&gt; 34.22%
+0 AV : 75.00% -&gt; 43.92%
-----------------------------
+1 Minion: 55.00% -&gt; 25.70%
+1 LT : 63.25% -&gt; 32.92%
+1 Boss : 71.50% -&gt; 41.02%
+1 AV : 82.50% -&gt; 51.73%
-----------------------------
+2 Minion: 60.00% -&gt; 31.58%
+2 LT : 69.00% -&gt; 39.59%
+2 Boss : 78.00% -&gt; 48.45%
+2 AV : 90.00% -&gt; 60.16%
-----------------------------
+3 Minion: 65.00% -&gt; 39.99%
+3 LT : 74.75% -&gt; 48.86%
+3 Boss : 84.50% -&gt; 58.49%
+3 AV : 95.00% -&gt; 71.24%</pre><hr />

Now look at them with two casters.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Lev/Rnk : Normal -&gt; Debuffed
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+0 Minion: 50.00% -&gt; 5.00%
+0 LT : 57.50% -&gt; 5.75%
+0 Boss : 65.00% -&gt; 6.50%
+0 AV : 75.00% -&gt; 12.84%
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+1 Minion: 55.00% -&gt; 5.50%
+1 LT : 63.25% -&gt; 6.33%
+1 Boss : 71.50% -&gt; 10.55%
+1 AV : 82.50% -&gt; 20.96%
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+2 Minion: 60.00% -&gt; 6.00%
+2 LT : 69.00% -&gt; 10.18%
+2 Boss : 78.00% -&gt; 18.89%
+2 AV : 90.00% -&gt; 30.33%
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+3 Minion: 65.00% -&gt; 14.98%
+3 LT : 74.75% -&gt; 22.98%
+3 Boss : 84.50% -&gt; 32.48%
+3 AV : 95.00% -&gt; 44.97%</pre><hr />

Now consider that DN is also a damage debuff. I believe it's around -35%?

So let's pick a +2 AV. One DDD would drop him to .9/.6016*(1-.35) = 43% of his damage. One character would do that for the entire team. TWO DDDs running DN would drop a +2 AV to 14.25% of his original damage output.

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One person would activate their debuff, get hammered before the second debuff lands if your timing is not perfect and die.

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Yes, this can happen. If it happens as a matter of course you need to find some teammates who know what they're doing. I have problems when facing rooms full of stuff that mezzes, like Freakshow. AVs? I can't tell you the last time an AV looked at me sideways if I coordinated well with my team.

I'm totally on board with the need for the change in mob toHit calculations. I think I understand how the rest followed from there.

But I agree. This would be a nice opportunity for a tweak that made this less ugly.

Dubhar, I think you about got it right.

I want to come down on the side of saying all this DOOM is silly for Dark. I won't speak to the other sets; I just don't know them well enough. But I have a 49 DDD, a 34 DDC, and a 34 Ice/Dark C.

No, I don't like this. Yes, I think the combination of the purple rolloff, the schedule downgrade, and the added "rank resistance" is bad for debuffing. I think the total effect of the values are probably too strong.

But I don't buy this stuff of "Dark's gonna play second fiddle" to FF or much of anything that it didn't already play second fiddle to today.

I've been nerfed a lot on lots of characters. All of them still work. Yes, some have, IMO been nerfed too much or in ways I don't understand, and I do campaign to see those improved. I see this similarly. People have valid points and concerns, but this just doesn't rise to the level of DOOM.

Histrionics will just get the devs to tune us out.

The only way to fix it would be to exempt toHit buffs from the purple rolloff. That is the root of the entire problem.

Note, however, that the moment you do that, you are almost certainly looking at a significant nerf to the base values. They aren't going to let us floor the accuracy of +4 mobs just because we can toss 2 or 3 debuffs on them at once.

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The defense values are using a 40% defense, which happens to be lower than even the post-nerf 3-slotted RI number (46.87%).

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How does that number relate to real-world 3-solotted bubbles?

I'm honestly asking. 40% defense sounds very high. For example, an SR Scrapper gets 12.5% defense out of each toggle. Defense is also Schedule B. That means that, 3-slotted, it's 19.625.

Elude is, what +45%?

Honestly, though, this is unavoidable. It doesn't even matter if they left us at Schedule A or not. ToHit Debuffs would still roll off while Defense would (now) be constant.

The only way what you are graphing above could be avoided is if toHitDebuffs avoided the "purple rolloff". I'll bet you the engine can't support that currently. I'm not saying I don't think it *should*, but if it can't then we simply are screwed.

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As for FF Defenders replacing Dark and Rad Defenders, I'm sorry, but it's not gonna happen. All this change really means is that Dark and Rad defenses will Enhance AT THE SAME RATE as FF. And they can still 1) heal, 2) buff damage and 3) rez, not to mention hold and slow and in the case of Rad even boost attack rate and Endurance, none of which FF is capable of. And if you bring up Aid Self, that's a slot that can't be used for the FFers Primary or Secondary, three if he wants to be able to rez.

Nobody's going to give up Accelerate Metabolism for an FF Defender. At best, this means FFers might be able to compete, instead of obviously being weaker than all other Sets but Trick Arrow. It's not what I wanted, I would rather the defense ratio stay where it is, and FF get some offense. But neither this nor the Accuracy rebalance are going to suddenly make FF popular. FF will be no more useful against reds and purples than it is against whites right now, and saying that an FF is better against whites than 300 Darks is certainly not true.

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While I may disagree with the extremism in the example, his point was that, because high-level foes resist toHitDebuffs (and now, high-rank foes resist it additionally), while Defense is invariant with foe level or rank, Defense is more powerful and consistent than toHit defbuffs. Whether the sets as a whole suffer for that is, as you point out, far less black and white.

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REgardless of whether or not its new, I submit that it's a bad idea, and should be abolished post haste.

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Actually, I've been looking at this, and I understand why they did it.

Without this we could totally trivialize a +0 or even +1 AV, slamming their toHit to the floor.

I do question the strength of the numbers. Personally, I think numbers 1/2 this large would be better.

Can anyone provide me with good numbers for the toHitDebuff values for other Dark Miasma powers? I am running this with various other numbers, and I want to inspect the numerical impact of stacking multiple debuffs on someone. I'd love to have numbers for Fearsome Stare and Twilight Grasp, and I wouldn't mind some confirmation on Darkest Night. Dark Blast powers would be cool, too.

For the willing helpful, I already have builder numbers. I'm sorry to say I don't trust them.

After getting my math to line up to Statesman's numbers (as with MrQuizzles, I'm off in the hundredths place, probably due to rounding differences), I ran the I7 numbers for RI with 3 SOs. For the curious, here are my results:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Lev/Rnk : Normal -&gt; Debuffed
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+0 Minion: 50.00% -&gt; 5.00%
+0 LT : 57.50% -&gt; 5.75%
+0 Boss : 65.00% -&gt; 13.00%
+0 AV : 75.00% -&gt; 22.50%
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+1 Minion: 55.00% -&gt; 5.50%
+1 LT : 63.25% -&gt; 12.02%
+1 Boss : 71.50% -&gt; 20.02%
+1 AV : 82.50% -&gt; 30.53%
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+2 Minion: 60.00% -&gt; 12.00%
+2 LT : 69.00% -&gt; 19.32%
+2 Boss : 78.00% -&gt; 28.08%
+2 AV : 90.00% -&gt; 39.60%
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+3 Minion: 65.00% -&gt; 22.75%
+3 LT : 74.75% -&gt; 31.02%
+3 Boss : 84.50% -&gt; 40.56%
+3 AV : 95.00% -&gt; 53.14%</pre><hr />

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REgardless of whether or not its new, I submit that it's a bad idea, and should be abolished post haste.

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I agree. As I mentioned above, it violates what seem to me to be the reasons for the change in mob toHit calculations. Powers being less effective against more powerful foes is a double whammy when those foes are already, by definition, more powerul.

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I think this will honestly greatly effect a D/D combination more so than someone who is just a Rad/. As those of us know who play D/D, their primary job and only role is completely to DeBuff in both of their primary and secondary sets. This could spell messiness for this set along with any other set that relies so heavily on ToHit Debuffs.

While this isn't a huge change, I cringe to see how much this will effect my D/D Corruptor.

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Actually, I think this is backwards.

Why? Because Dark Miasma has more tools which debuff foe accuracy. Those add directly to one another, which is going to be vastly more powerful than it used to be, completely unenhanced.

For toHit debuffs in addition to Darkest Night, Dark Miasma also has Fearsome Stare, Twilight Grasp, and Dark Servant (a powerful toHit debuff on his own if you toss him right on foes). If you're Dark/Dark, you actually have even more debuffs going for you, and they're all more powerful in I7 too.

Maybe it's a playstyle thing. I don't toss Darkest Night on LTs unless they're outrageously dangerous (+3 or more) and I can't hold them with Petryfying Gaze. If faced with a room full of LTs (assuming I don't think I should just flee) I would use Fearsome Stare to mez them, then start holding people. Darkest Night is reserved for bosses, which are a target I can stack all the above tools on with Darkest Night.

No, I think this damages Rad worst. I can't say that with authority because I never got a Rad Emis Defender over 21. But Rad doesn't debuff toHit with as many tools.

It's also clearly bad for Storm Summoning. I don't know if the other benefits of Hurricane and the other powers make up the difference - I not only haven't played Storm characters, I haven't played with them much, either.