UberGuy

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Aid self also heals for noticeably more than a fire tanker's healing flames......and recharges in like half the time....or maybe even less.

Makes sense, right?

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We already know that at least Castle thinks that's broken and that Healing Flames is being inspected for improvement.

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Aid Self allows me to heal approximately 123% of my HP per minute without Power Boost and 165% when I use power boost every time it's up.

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Honestly, I don't understand the point in mentioning what it can do with PB. That is something that Energy Secondaries and maybe Power Mastery EPP Defenders can take advantage of. (Never met a Defender with Aid Self.)

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My Regen Scrapper can heal at 97% of her HP in one minute with Reconstruction well slotted. My primary regeneration toggle only heals me for 61% of my HP per minute. So two powers that make up my main defenses are beneath this pool power.

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Because they aren't interruptable, do not break your attack chain for 3.3 seconds, and do not require you to be immobile to activate them.

Look, if the problem is that the power's interruptability is not working, I'm all for fixing that. It interrupts for me rather often. Maybe I've been unlucky. I've tried what you describe with an Invulnerability Scrapper and have about 60/40 success/fail rate activating the power under heavy assault. It was usually a mix of slow DoT and multiple melee attacks that I could't time. Melee with one foe? No problem. In the Ice Storm of a Hellfrost? Forget it. With a DE Swarm on my butt? Forget it.

But if it's not working - if the interrupt mechanic is broke, then fix that.

And hey, I'd be ecstatic if they dropped the recharge on reconstruction by 30% or so. I think it takes too damn long to come back.

Yeah, something like that would be rather nice.

Yeah, except they felt that ED was abolutely essential. And in PvP I think it absolutely was. (Which annoys the tar out of me.)

On the other hand, the other thing Castle said ("not strictly neccessary") suggests that they do not feel this way about Aid Self.

Absolutely neccessary > wildly unpopular
Not strictly neccessary < very unpopular

While certainly highly subjective, I don't find those two assertions impossible to accept.

Do I think Aid Self will never change for better balance? No. I do hope that, as a low priority change, it can be rebalanced on the coat tails of some tech change in the game that will allow it to be rebalanced without sucking wind; changed in a way that's not an option now.

Castle is an anagram for "As Celt". Because the Celts used broadswords, I am certain that Castle will next be nerfing the Broadsword set.

That seems to completely ignore the other two things Castle said. That it would be very unpopular and wasn't strictly neccessary.

(Sorry, Castle. You must love having people microanalyze your posts like this. )

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God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

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And I believe that is *exactly* why _Castle_ thinks Aid Self is overpowered.

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The described behavior would break benefits to other interruptable powers for defense sets. Dark/Dark using Moonbeam. Ninja and SR Stalkers using Assissin Strike (or just keeping Placate). My point was that the described solution would be annoying as hell accross multiple ATs, and I am quite certain that +DEF and AS/Placate are very much working as intended.

Any "fix" to Aid Self should not "fix" those other sets. The "fix" I was responding to would.

What you are describing is going to be true so long as Aid Self exists. Aid Self benefits anyone who has defenses or any mitigation already. This is a truism whether the characters have +DEF or not. Aid Self is of great benefit to someone with high DR. It's just not as easy to use reliably.

All that could be changed is that the benefit can be reduced. Past experience shows that such changes tend to make pool powers meaningless across the board. And making yet another pool power have a meaningless benefit is tiresome. Yay, lets make it another Weave! A power that no one in their right mind takes - even the AT that it helps the "most". If the power exists and can be taken, it needs to provide meaningful benefit.

So thanks, but I'm not interested in another Weave.

God, that would suck big for several powersets across ATs. That's fixing a fly with a big sledghammer, IMO.

Yeah. But this is a game. It's an MMO. And given the things in this game that are actually fairly novel (no loot to speak of till the very end, Sidekicking, solo friendliness) I don't mind that they appropriated some tried-and-true MMO concepts. People like having pets. A LOT. And like as not, healing is useful. Sometimes overrated, but definitely useful.

In any case, this is a thread about a self heal. And that there is plenty of precedent for.

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Don't kid yourself. The importance of balance means less & less as each issue nears release. Now if Aid Self could be directly tied to herding or PLing, by God, watch those mountains move! The bottom line is they're not nerfing it yet because it would take too long and there are bigger fish to fry.

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Well, there are two possibilities. Castle is lying to us or he isn't. I am, frankly, one of the more jaded people on the forums when it comes to the nerfs we've seen in the past. I do not, however, believe that they would flat out lie to us.

Does that mean that, in the future, some new tech or other change to balance might allow them to change this power, and that they might then? Yeah, I buy that. Do I think that, when crunch month is over, they'll just nerf it outright? No, based on what Castle said here, I don't. They could have done that already - that's what he said.

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in it i hear you can even aid self yourself standing in burn. The degree you can lower the interruption of this power is such that many just take 2 interrupt SOs and toss a recharge SO to make an already fast recharging heal even faster.

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I find this very hard to believe. I have it slotted with two interrupts and I cannot use it under the influence of something like and Ice Storm or near a Behemoth running Invincibility. If I can't get it to fire after two or three tries, I give up.

If what you're saying is true then it needs the interrupt time either increased or made less enhancable.

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I think Aid Self would be universally better if the interruptability were removed entirely and the amount of aid nerfed to a somewhat smaller percentage than it is currently, or perhaps even a fixed number of HP per level of the caster.

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Um, nerfing it would make it universally better?

Making it fixed W.R.T. caster level and ignoring AT HPs would make it horribly gimp for some ATs and quite nice for others. Besides, they can already achieve this with AT modifiers.

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It's like saying the Tylenol III you can buy in the store isn't overpowered in comparison to the version a Doctor has access to. Well, sure, but everyone can get it, unlike that specialised version.

Compare the difference between an SR Scrapper with and without. Heck, compare an character with Aid Self to another with SR based solely on how long the two can take incoming damage when not fighting (assuming both have the same HP).

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Actually, that makes the comparison all the more valid. I did not include anywhere in that analysis that Reconstruction is only a part of /Regen's healing-based mitigation. Had I somehow included Dull Pain or Fast Healing in the analysis then yes, it would be unfair. Comparing Reconstruction and Aid Self as stand-alone powers is completely fair. There is no indication that Reconstruction is somehow godly among self-heal powers simply because it is a component in the Regeneration powerset.

Well, I have to chime in here that I think the notion of measuring AS as overpowered because of its raw HP/second healed seems overly limited.

I like to compare AS to Reconstruction, which is a 25% heal every 60 seconds. In comparison, AS is a 20% heal every 20 seconds. Normalizing those comes out to:

Recons: 0.416%/sec
AS: 1%/sec

I'll grant that this is a pretty hefty numerical difference. But let's look at it for a second in a more wholistic view.

*) You have to stray into a power pool and take another power. If you're a melee character, you probably have very limited use for this power choice. (Tankers actually make effective healers with Aid Other, however.)
*) Aid Self has a 3+ second activation, where you can do nothing but move (if you reduced the interrupt time)
*) Cannot be activated in motion at all. You have to stop moving to activate it.
*) Cannot be used in most damage fields, other fast DoTs or pulsing effects

Compare that to a Reconstruction

*) In-powerset power with no prerequiste (other than being a certain minimum level)
*) Can be used on the move. The animation does not root the caster
*) < 1 second activation

Do those differences warrant a 2.4 factor in healing/sec? I don't know, but I can see it being better than Reconstruction in that raw metric because of the other differences.

Finally, Aid Self is one of the few self mitigations accessible to some non-armored ATs, such as Blasters. Nerfing it bearing in mind what armored sets can do (which is arguably much more useful to them) would be a hard, hard nerf on these people. And it sounds like that might be one reason they're not doing it.

Unless you've learned to read Castle's mind, I think you need to stop waving that post as a banner. A lot of discussion has happened on the forums, about that power and about the pros and cons it has. Castle said that then. He is not carved in stone, and he could have changed his mind. It's worth pointing out that he originally did not want the power nerfed and apparently changed his mind when its recharge was pointed out to him.

And as he pointed out, he isn't changing it. I infer that the change he would liked to have made would have had negative ramifications for various uses of the power outside those Castle was looking at. Either that or there is a direct conflict of balance opinion between Castle and someone further up the chain.

In either case, his stated wish to change the power at that time is not, in my opinion, some sort of battle standard to be waved to incite the masses.

Stormbringer,

Really, I do understand the things you're pointing out. Maybe not in the same detail you might from more extensive PvP planning and analysis, but I really do get that the Hurricane alone didn't come along and win the battle for the heroes. They had to make good use of it. They had to be smart or at least not stupid.

All I'm trying to say is that I thing the addition of the Hurricane gave them something to work with that was, IMO, more sweeping in impact than even somthing like an empath. (Who trust me, I know full well can be a wicked thing and makes a primary target on the battlefield). It's an opinion I think is well formed, but I acknowledge it is an opinion.

Last night, a controller came into SC. She (well, at least it was a female character) was Ice/Storm. She had decided not to use Hurricane in PvP because she felt people had more fun if she didn't. I don't want to debate the merits of that decision - it's just background for what I'm about to say next.

Just with her holds, debuffs, heals and liberal use of Diciplines/Break Frees (to keep from being cancelled by other holders), she had a strong effect on the battlefield. With buddies around looking out for her, she was reasonably hard to kill. And all that was without Hurricane. If she'd been using it, I do think it could have driven the villain players away, because the villains in the zone didn't have the tools one can use to surgically nullify her. Specifically, for whatever reason TP foe isn't real common. Heck, it seems less common now on both sides of open PvP. I used to get tele-ganked quite a lot.

Anyway, I'm not really arguing with you at this point. I'm just trying to explain my viewpoint. You have a very analytical view, and in particular you are coming from the perspective that "we" (the villains) should always bring the tools needed to best counter the hero powers. That makes a ton of sense when building a competition team for something like a base raid or an arena match. I'm coming from a holistic perspective based on the more random association of open PvP, where I might enter with one or two SG-mates and just make do with whoever else is in the zone. It's in that latter setting that things like Hurricane seem so powerful.

We'll see. I'm hopeful that the devs can do somthing to the power that's less distasteful to its users and fans. PvP != PvE!

Heh. That seems like such an obvious solution.

(Really. I'm not being sarcastic.)

I won't be surprised, though, if the repel thing wasn't the complete reason for the change. Without trying to make this a dig, we seem to get partial info about the reasons for these things much more often than not.

I think there are a lot of reasons it doesn't make sense to nerf it. It's a comparable heal "magnitude" to the non-Healing Flames heals, but it has significant drawbacks.

The absolute wost thing I think it would be reasonable for them to do would be to set Aid Self's recharge such that with one recharge it was equal to to that of a power like Reconstruction's recharge with two recharges.

Where do I get that metric? Aid Self is very hard to use in a pinch unless you at least two-slot it for interrupt reduction. That leaves one slot for recharge, and three for heal.

Honestly, I still don't think that makes the powers par. Aid Self still can't be reliably activated in a damage field, when affected by a fast DoT, or under fire by lots of foes. Its animation is long, and while interrupt reducers allow you to move while it's finishing, you can't use any powers. Contrast that to Reconstruction, which can be used on the move, and has minimal drawback aside from weapon redraw.

No, once they fix Healing Flames, I think Aid Self will be relatively safe. I don't think it should be nerfed at all, and if it is, I would campaign strongly that it be minor.

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well, according to devs the power was nerfed to prevent abusing it in pvp base raids. so, the fact is, we can all see why it was nerfed. you happen to agree with the reason. that's your opinion. while i agree, there was a potential for abuse in base raids, i think the solution to this POTENTIAL problem was wholly inappropriate. that's my opinion.

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Honestly, I don't disagree here. I'm not sure what a good "fix" was called for (if any!), but I have no conviction that this was it. I never got pinned in a corner with it myself except in a situation where the user had me dead-to-rights anyway.

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after all, who is better informed to assess a powerset for pvp...one who's played the powerset for 50 levels and now does so in pvp almost exclusively, or one who's never played the set, pvps only in siren's call without acess to a host of soon-to-be-available high-level content, without access to extra slots, without access to hami-os, without considering a pvp respec, without considering pvp re-slotting, without picking up an occasional temp power, without considering coordinated team tactics...? WHO IS BETTER QUALIFIED TO DISCUSS THE MERITS OF A POWER?! i'm sorry, uberguy, it's not you. your cries of "NERF" smack of ignorance.

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Sorry, but I don't buy it. I don't have to be an expert in this power. I only have to be at least moderately expert in other ATs and powersets. I have to have enough information to wonder "How best to defeat that? What if I was another AT? What if I had this power or that slotting?" I claim that, while the best fix is perhaps offered by someone with an "inside view", the best ability to spot whether or not a power is unusually powerful actually rests with people who have broad AT and powerset expereience. Certainly I might have more insight if I had a lot of experience with storm, but to claim I can't correctly identify the possiblity that it's "overpowered" in some way because I don't play it is simply false.

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where's your evidence the storm hadn't respecced? where's your consideration for any factor besides a 3 or 4-slotted hurricane? that's a maxed defense power there, buddy.

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I'm not sure why you think I assume Hurricane is anything other than a defense power. I never claimed Hurricane was going to come kill me or my team. It's exactly its potent defense that I took issue with. It allowed a safe haven from which Heroes could strike and to which they could retreat. It goes back to that shield-wall analogy I made. You could form a team around Hurricane and create a defensive formation from which to launch attacks in great safety. The very existence of this formation served to greatly increase the survivability of the Storm Summoner themselves. This is why the standard tactics you describe were by no means even remotely guaranteed. A Tanker's Taunt could cancel the Raging Brute sent in. The debuff tick all but guaranteed safety from Assasin Strikes. A single healer could usually allow recovery from ranged assault.

A motley crew of heroes in that sort of formation was a tough fight. Typcially they would crumble under concerted assault, as the chaos in their ranks took attention off the stormer long enough to kill or disable them. A well organized one was much more devastating, as they would naturally communicate threats to one another, and treating the Hurricane as the lynchpin in their offensive postioning, they would work hard to defend them.

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i meant no personal offense, honest. if i attacked your understanding of pvp it was to point something out...you have not adapted to pvp.

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I understand your point. What I am trying to say is ... it should say something that, even if I have not chosen to build a dedicated PvP progression for my character(s), I still found myself able to do well against almost anything else. Only two powers regularly gave me trouble, no matter how well the opponent was built. Hurricane and TP foe. And TP foe only gives me trouble because there's nothing much to be done about it. You just get TP'd sometimes and that's the shakes. If I hated it enough I'd get TP self.

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again, you're misrepresenting my suggestion. to deal with hurricane and hurricane alone, do nothing. you won't be hurt by it. the fight will end in a draw. if you wish to deal with hurricane as it works in a well-oiled pvp team, you may consider adopting some successful pvp tactics. i merely suggested a few. to be clear: to deal with hurricane by itself, you don't have to do anything...it's not gonna hurt you.

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Hopefully I addressed this above. No, Hurricane itself was not the problem. But the need to defeat other heroes who had a Hurricane to retreat to - that was the challenge I speak of.

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i submit to you that this had less to do with the one power you perceived debuffing you than it did with all the other elements that comprise a successful pvp experience.

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I'll concede that this is possible. My opinion is formed by comparison of fields of play where Hurricane wasn't present with those where it was. And in at least one recent case, I had the opportinity to observe how the arrival of a Hurricane user changed the dynamics of an existing battlefield, and also how one departing changed one where he had been present.

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Finding things offensive and/or insulting is a diety-given right. Finding text on a forum such indicates a bit of hypersensitivity. Perhaps you should step out for a bit. Arguments here can often find themselves stunningly heated for no particular reason and we wouldn’t want to be drawn into that.

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Well, I find it perfectly reasonable to suspect ulterior motive when a poster attributes to me a highly contentious assertion that I did not make. Less than your words, I found the inferred intention offensive.

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So, Hurricane doesn’t offer a soloist an effective advantage, you’ve said. You’ve also said Hurricane isn’t an ability you can’t work around. What you’re saying is that it is your opinion that Hurricane brings more to a team than anything else, with no different slotting than it had outside of the zone.

Now here’s the pickle. It’s your opinion, but you keep ranting about facts. You can’t prove an opinion.

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Would you kindly quote where I have stated an opinion as a fact, in full context?

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For example: In my opinion, you are falling into the same trap most unimaginative PvPers have concerning Hurricane. You see a big, flashy effect surrounding a team and let the panic of all the ranting ravers here on the forums strike fear into your heart. Instead of taking one of the many, many options available to you and confirmed as workable by you here in this thread, you refer to it being overpowered while ignoring the fact that it is only one equal piece of a well-organized team’s puzzle.

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No, in fact I attribute exactly the reverse to you. As a user of the powerset you see someone attempting to make rational assertions about the utility level of the power and assume that I have joined a bandwagon of nerfherders.

I have not.

I simply believe I understand why this power was nerfed. I beleive, taking into account the successes I had against it an my full understanding that it was in no way invincible, that Hurricane was extraordinalrily powerful. That it was more effective than other powers available in the zone.

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I think Clear Mind is more powerful. I think almost all of Energy Melee is more powerful.

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Why? Your asserion means nothing if you don't even offer examples of why you think so. My opinions may be opinions, but I offered examples of how I formed them. Tossing around declarations is meaningless without some backing.

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I think there are dozens of powers out there that bring just as much to a toon or a team as Hurricane ever could, the difference being just how visible the effect was and the fact that it makes some of the more effective squishie-killers stop and contemplate strategy for half a moment.

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Nice hyperbolic and embedded attempt to disqualify my opinion as someone who did not contemplate strategy. I did. I consider the contemplation and coordination required to defeat a team taking even basic advantage of Hurricane more difficult than any other team combination I have seen fielded in SC.

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The result? Your voice won out and here we are. So you’re arguing, why?

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Honestlly? Because I'd like to see people like acknowledge that there could have been an issue. I shared my experiences and explained them in fair detail. I carefully avoided most hyperbolic description, and stuck to events as I encountered them. I offered it as evidence that there may be something to this. And when people (mainly Stormbringer) tried to dissasemble my points, I have tried to defend them in such a way as to maintain that they have potential validity.

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If my tone upsets you, it’s doubtless because I’ve found one of my favorite abilities weakened due in large part to viewpoints like yours. PvP complaints about easily circumventable powers in a set that was long considered highly underperforming are disappointing, to say the least.

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For what it's worth, I have commented on the boards about Hurricane's PvP performance exactly once in the past. My concern was with the toHit buff's duration only. And I share the annoyance of every player that has been nerfed in PvE for PvP balance. My personal opinion is that we have PvP to thank in large part for I5, ED, and supression. This is just another notch in its belt.

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And an allusion isnt a claim. From what I've been reading, you've been doing a whole lot of alluding.

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I fail to see in any way how you can claim my argument has been by allusion. I have been very specific in my claims. The only way in which I have been general is in not naming other powers or powersets, but this is because I consider Storm Summoning's Hurricane to be a singular outlier in ability for one power to shape the battlefield.

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In short, don’t claim that Hurricane was an “I-win” button just because it took the tiniest modicum of strategy to overcome it. That’s just alluding to laziness and self-centered tantrums because you couldn’t click an attack button over and over again to take down yet another helpless squishie.


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Make sure you read the entire line of my posts in this thread. They only go back a couple of days. Because you are advising me not to do something I never did.

I never claimed that, with one exception, I have met Stormers soling well in PvP.

I never claimed that I couldn't beat Hurricane. In fact, with help, I have done so, often.

What I have said is that Hurricane brought more to a team than anything else I have seen in the open PvP zones. That this one power was effective enough to drive the shape of the battlefield.

I claim that it had this capability even "just" slotted for PvE. Even just focusing on the toHit debuff, it had this potential.

That is all. I claim that its value was extraordinary compared to other single powers on the open PvP battlefield.

Edit: In particular, I find this offensive.

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Making allusions that any Storm toon can waltz into a zone, pop on Hurricane and mosey about as if having turned on a cheat code is fallacious.

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If you are going to set a tone in a post, I advise that you stick to the facts. I never made this preposterous claim or anything like it.

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slows...they work like immobilizes. you forgot those in your little summary

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I really just don't see this. Slowing or rooting would do virtually nothing to the Hurricane users the way I see them functioning in the open zones. This would mildly hinder the team. (Also, slows do nothing to them if they have Super Jump, though immobilizes would.) The tactical use of Hurricane I am used to is that it is used as a safe haven - a forward base. It is rarely a strong inconvenience if it is slowed down; it's often slow moving by nature.

If you don't want to believe player tested numbers from respectable forum posters, that's not my problem.

If you want to believe that everyone who comes in an open PvP zone has to be slotted for it, that's not my problem. Once more I'll point out that "mere mortals" do well against one another in the absence of pre-nerf Hurricane. The notion that you have to have exceptional slotting to deal with this one power clearly doesn't fly.

The simple fact of the matter is I can see why this power was changed. I'm explaining it to you. You dislike my explanation, and you're arguing the point with me.

Sadly, that's not going to do you any good.

The devs saw a problem. They made changes. I agree that there were problems. You disagree, and some of your primary arguments are based around top-end PvP builds. Well, I don't know if you've noticed, but the devs here have never catered much to the top-end players. This game always has been about the middle ground far more than the extremes. Actually, it's often about the low end instead of the top.

I don't have to agree with that to observe and understand it. Hurricane was, to me, an obvious outlier. You disagree. I think the conditions under which you disagree are limited in special ways that contrive to make Hurricane less of an issue. So be it - such conditions exist. I don't agree that they make a useful baseline. It's apparent that the devs agree, at least on some level.

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what i, and many others, get so frustrated with is this notion that everything should be within your reach. you don't want to respect for pvp, but you want to be good at it, you don't want to re-think your team tactics, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to call out targets, but you want to win at pvp, you don't want to get voice technology but you want to be good at pvp...

sorry man, it looks like you don't want to do the work...you just want stuff handed to you DOA.

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Where's the respec for the Storm character? They're using a standard PvE power slotted the way they would in PvE. The notion that people need special, over-the-top builds to counter it is ludicrous. I point to my statement over and over and over nothing else in the zone required that.

You slide into a tried and true defense tactic - you attack my basic understanding of PvP. You claim I either do not understand, refuse to use, or otherwise have not tried "PvP" tactics. You point to not having TP foe be common as no excuse to not using it. How can I use something that's not at hand? If I go into SC and no one on my side has that power, I can't magically add it to my list of options.

Additionally, not everyone in SC is 40 on the villain side, nor are all the heroes 50. Not everyone on either side is a pure PvP build. What if the Brute doesn't yet have six slots for his Rage?

Again, the notion that someone should resort to PvP builds to defeat a power used and slotted in PvE-style only strenghtens the notion that it was exceptionally powerful, making clear why it got "adjusted".

And I have no doubt that many of the foes I have faced are PvP builds. Ice/Energy Blasters with SJ and SS. Double stealthed Stalkers. Devices Blasters with Tactics. And I have had no problem facing them with a good team and a PvE build created with attention to PvP viabilitiy. And my build and the people I played with did defeat Hurricane users. But the effort required to do so was excpetional compaered with that required to defeat other people in the zone. And that alone is my point. Hurricane required unusual amounts of effort and coordination to defeat.

I agree GS. But guess what. That problem existed no matter what. With I7 changes, even if you could floor their toHit, that floor was not 5% any more. It was now 10% of their normal toHit. So that +3 AV would actually have something like a 12.5% chance to hit even if you had 2.65*10^6% defense bonus. One shot in 8 would still hit.

That's just plain a limitation of Force Field or SR or anone's "all defense-based powerset of choice". And I have no problem with people who complain about that as a set design problem - I happen to agree.

But to then say that this behavior makes the nerf unacceptable - I can't get on board with that.

My very first character was SR. I still have him. He's still a PvE gimp, and I keep him only for sentimental purposes. I hope to enjoy him again in I7. We'll see. But I learned my lesson. I dislike the limitations of pure defense. I've stayed away ever since.

You take your bubbler and stack his bubbles on my DR or Regen oriented Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes, etc. and you'll make me a very happy camper, because you'll layer a mitigation I don't really have on my own, and your mitigation layer will be very strong. Yeah, it's not going to protect the Blaster from an AV's attacks, and that's a bummer. But it's not like FF is useless; it's limited. Take some pleasure in the fact that your limits will be relaxed a little for a change.

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How conveniently you ignore the debuff. A debuff that can reliably drop a Brute with Rage running to a 25% toHit chance. (Less now, of course.)

--and how conveniently you forget the potpouri of to-hit goodies available to your poor brute including but not limited to any to-hit buffs available to the brute like build up, soul drain, or rage, you also forget any team buffs, any defense debuffs, any yellows the brute might keep on his person...

--if hero builder numbers are to be believed, your rage (when properly slotted) provides you with a 78.69% to-hit bonus. this, coupled with 2 accuracies in your attack granst you a base to-hit in pvp of 214%.

--there is no way in hell hurricane (by itself) debuffs that to 25%.

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First of all, those planner numbers are not to be believed. The Rage toHit buff number is more like 1/2 of that. I cannot find numbers for Hurricane's base debuff or I would have run the math for you. I am basing this off of the experience of a Brute running Rage with one toHit buff and one accuracy in each attack.

Assume for a moment that Hurricane has the toHit debuff of Dark Miasma's Darkest Night. Darkest Night is a -18.75% toHit debuff. 3 slotting that with Schedule B SOs makes it -29.4375%. Brute Rage is +18% toHit, with one SO making that +21.6%.

Now with one accuracy slotted, that Brute would have a toHit of 1.33*(50-29.4+21.6) = 51.6%.

Now, assume instead that Hurricane is closer to Radiation Infection: -31.25% base. Now the numbers become

1.33*(50-49.1+21.6) = 30%.

So, it's possible Hurricane is a large toHit debuff or it's possible the Brute had a bad run. Franky, getting someone with Rage running is to miss 50% of the time is still pretty damn impressive.

And recall these are post nerf numbers.

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1) ranged damage, 2) ranged mezzes


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Covered over and over in every one of my previous posts.

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3) melee with to-hit buffs

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Covered above.

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4) slows

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I have no idea why you think this does anything to them. The storm player does not need to be especially mobile - they are the strong point of the team.

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5) kill the mez protection

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You know, the mez protection that's in the Hurricane, and has all the same problems of actually killing the stormer themselves.

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6) tp the mez protection away

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This is definitely a viable strategy. TP foe is not ubiquitous in SC PvP, however.

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7) detention field, 8) sonic cage, 9) TK, 10) force bubble or whatever it's called.

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People with dedicated PvP builds probably see these powers more often. They are, in fact, incredibly rare among PvE players because they are widely reviled for PvE use. That means that you don't get them often. On the other hand, Hurricane is (or at least was) universally useful in PvE and PvP. It did not require a specialized PvP build to include it.

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BUT THERE IS DEFINITELY MORE THAN ONE WAY TO BRING DOWN A STORM!!!

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So, lets break it down again.

*) The ones I covered (ranged)
*) Edit: TP foe, which is good and I didn't cover
*) Ones that aren't particuarly effective (I have no idea why you seem to think it's so simple to remove the healers if it's a challenge to remove the stormer to begin with)
*) Ones that you are mistaken about the pre-nerf effectiveness of (toHit buffed melees)
*) Ones that were uncommon except among dedicated PvPers.

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--recharge time on hurricane is 10 seconds. if your team of villains is not coordinated enough or balanced enough to kill a squishy in 10 seconds without his primary defensive power running, then i don't think your problem is with hurricane.

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And again I believe you are blinded by your focus on dedicated PvP in controlled environments. It's apparent that the majority of your attention is on the Arena or Base Raids. HvV zones like Sirens' Call are open PvP. You get what you can when you enter the zone. I happen to be lucky and can go in with my SG-mates, some of whom I have years of gaming experience with and with whom I can communicate on voice comms. But that zone is rich with PuGs and all sorts of randomness. Once more I will reiterate my claim that liitle can cause more need for those potenitally random people on the villain side to act with true coordination than a Hurricane caster working with a group of heroes. In fact, I claim that a PuG of uncoordinated heroes with a stormer called for a coordinated group of villains to defeat.