UberGuy

I'll be damned. I never had a reason to look at that.

That looks like an outright bug. I wonder if it's still like that. I would PM Castle with that. It looks to me like someone got too happy with toggling on the non-enhancable flag on the resistances and got that one by mistake.

Yes, they can.

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How about simply making the alerts all caps, perhaps framed in asterisks or crosshatches to stand out. Like :

** VANGUARD : ALERT : RIKTI SHIPS APPROACHING GRANDVILLE **

That would be somewhat better.

Or drop the Request channel and make that the Vanguard/special announcements channel. It's barely used.

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The Request channel is used regularly for raid management by folks who raid.

The Friends channel could totally go, IMO. In asking around lately I can't find anyone who has used it since globals were implemented.

I agree that the system channel seems to be an extremely poor choice for the reasons Steel Magnolia layed out.

Honestly, I like the idea of recomissioning the Friends channel. Can the devs pull any stats on how many people actually use it? I haven't touched it since Global was added. Despire the fact that I add it to every tab in which I expect to recieve "chat" messages, I haven't gotten anything on it in literally years.

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Still don't understand what the big deal is. I think people need to relax and just put it out of their mind.

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/agreed.......how hard or time consuming is it to glance at it to see if it is applicable to you at the time or not. If it is then great, if not....move on.

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This lights up all my tabs, no matter what. Badge channel tab? Nothing new there, just spam. PM tab? Nothing new there, just spam. The three chat panels I have open? Same information in all three. Tuesday morning's shutdown alert? Ignored because it looks like the spam.

Your lack of caring doesn't mean it's a stupid, unfriendly design, and that it shouldn't be fixed.

While I don't doubt that TP can help make things go somewhat more smoothly, in practice the only place its important is in recovering from blooms when people get wiped out. It's probable that some better planning, practice and communication can help here, but on Justice that's the only real time sink in the raids, as we wait for people to TP the defeated back to a safe place for rezzing.

Quite a few more folks seem to have TP friend than have TP as a travel power, which is good, because TP friend seems more consistently needed.

Note that TP (self) is relatively though not universally common on Stone Tankers, who are usually in good supply.

Mixed feelings on this. I feel that having the comic has been a good thing, and I have enjoyed some of the issues. On the other hand, I have never been impressed with it, and the issues I've liked I liked in spite of things that I considered dumb or poor.

That's just my opinion, and not meant as a slam on the people who worked on the comics. But it just didn't do it for me. IMO it could have been a much better vehicle for the game with better writing (and better art, at times).

So I view its passing as a sort of lost potential more than anything. Given that it hasn't lived up to that potential (for me) I guess it makes sense to let it go. But it makes me sort of sad for what could have been.

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I have no trouble with a challenge but there's a challenge then there's way too challenging. If they intend us to beat it a certain way then I'd appreciate they tell us instead of us finding an alternate way and them buffing Hami even more to prevent that method and then keep teasing us with a mythical solution that they won't reveal. As they've done in the past.

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Once you know the general strat, it's not very hard. You have to have probably at least 35 people (that's a guess, and I'm guessing it would be fairly harder at that count) and a reasonable distribution of ATs.

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Also I would like to see one successful raid on each side on each server before I hear people saying it's fine and beatable.

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Why from each server? That's an honest question; I don't understand why that matters.

As far as Justice (or, I think, anyone who did the raids on test) is concerned, I'm pretty sure we're not keeping our strats secret. If you want to know them, just ask.

Justice's raid definitely does not have a magic powerset distribution. Things go faster if you have folks who can TP the dead back to cover. Folks who can rez help. Having 1-3 Dark Defenders/Corruptors/MMs helps because they can offer AoE Fear protection. You need people with good taunting ability (usually Tankers/Brutes) and both ranged and AoE healing are important, but both of these things were important (imperative) in the old raid.

It works best if you can split into aggro holding groups, melee groups that pound on yellows, ranged groups that take on blues, and a mezzing group that takes on greens. Once the greens are down, our green group takes on blues as well. Justice hasn't set any quotas on the number of people doing each; we just said "hey, if you do these things go here".

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I only promised to stop arguing with people like you who degrade the discussion to a 12-year old's level.

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You keep saying that word … I think it does not mean what you think it means …

You don't by any chance happen to have six fingers on your right hand?

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Well, since you put it that way, we really are being victimized. Why bother leveling up your toon, testing multiple builds, gathering HOs and now IOs, spend weeks or months leveling a character from 1 to 50 and learning everything there is to know about your powers, how they work, which combos works best, etc. etc. etc., only to find it's all USELESS when fighting the new big bad end game boss.

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Name me a single MMO game where an end/raid boss on the scale of Hamidon (and by scale I mean requires a large mass of players) does not overwhelm the defenses of any single character.

The devs wanted Hamidon to be something that required something other than "stack all the bubbles and fortitudes available and go to down". Is this the only way they could have done it? No. But given what they've decided Hamidon itself should be - a large, unmoving foe, this is one of the most time-effective means they could use.

Hamidon in any form similar to what he is now would be completely trivialized by a zone full of players who's powers actually worked on him.

Here's a revalation for you: if the armored ATs could use thier defenses to stand up to Hamidon the way you seem to want them to, in order to be as challenging as he is to them right now, assuming the same basic behavior, he would have to be able to absolutely annhiliate any non-armored (or equivalent) AT, as he would have to do between 4x and 10x his current damage. That sounds grand, doesn't it?

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And hell, I've been on enough teams to know that even with full resistances and defense current toons can very easily be overwhelmed by their enemies, simply by taking more damage than they can mitigate.

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You've been on teams of 50 people? Neat!

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I just keep thinking back thru 30 some odd years of comic book stories when heroes were gathered in teamups to defeat a dire enemy.

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This is not a comic book. I am really done with people going here. This is a game inspired by comic themes. Comic books are stories the flow of which, every concept and event in, serve the storytelling aims of the author. Books need no balance. The most indestructable character in the universe can be threatened by the loss of loved ones, or by plots that super strength cannot defeat. These things cannot be reliably represented in the modern MMO. CoH is a D20-style combat simulation that looks like comics. It cannot be true to fiction because there is no author. We are the characters, and we have to be limited in the scope of the game's context.

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It's simply ridiculous that with such a rich history of large scale battles in comic book lore the devs chose to throw it all out the window and just make this creature -- a human infused with dark magiks -- into a virtually indestructible, unstoppable, laws-of-physics, time, and space-breaking omnipotent god.

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Because that never happens in the comics.

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EVERYTHING has a weakness. Galactus has a weakness. The Oans have a weakness. Doomsday has a weakness. Hami has none.

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Nice selective memory, since I actually enumerated Hamidon's weaknesses earlier.

Did I mention that the new Hamidon is actually easier to kill in tems of damage dealt? Imagine that. He's harder because he's actually more dangerous than before. And the battles with him are short and frentic instead of long and tedious like they were in I8 and before.

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There is no real challenge here.

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That always happens when you run away and cry that it's too hard.

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And the only strategy involves figuring out how many of each AT you need, what powers they must have

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Wait, you mean like the rest of the bloody game?

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After that, it's pretty much the same as every other foe in CoX -- kill anything that moves as quickly as possible.

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Oh, you do mean that! So... do you not actually like the rest of the game?

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After all the kinks of the "strategy" are worked out, doing Hami will simply be by rote, just as it always has before.

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And someone claimed this would not be so.... where?

The difference is that it's a much, much more active "rote". It requires everyone present to move in tandem, not just put someone on follow and click their best ranged power. It can't fail because someone pulls a giant monster onto people tediously casting holds on Hamidon, or because they lag. The whole thing is much more active, and is clearly going to be much less boring than before, because the combat phases are much shorter. Hell, even planning to get out of dodge when new blooms appear is more interesting.

You refuse to see that the encounter has actually been improved, even if one agrees it has bogus mechanics of threat. That hasn't changed. But victory comes through active participation of a smaller core of people (and there was always a smaller core of people at pre-I9 raids who were actually paying attention) acting in brief, coordinated bursts. For the people who are there to actually participate and pay attention, it's a lot more enjoyable. For the people who were bored and afk, they can either step up or go run the STF. You see, the real beauty of it is that they now have that choice.

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The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

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This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.


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So of course, it's fine to trivialize 1/2 of the melee ATs powersets out there instead and add an inspiration to do something they're supposed to already be capable of.

I still say if they had decided to make Hamidon "difficult" by putting a zone debuff that greyed out all buff/debuff powers, and the debuff could only be countered by an inspiration you'd have to farm, the majority of the playerbase that haunt these forums would cry foul loud enough until it got fixed.

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Oh, so you think he doesn't trivialize buff/debuff powers? You think he doesn't trivialize buffs that give defense? Buffs that give DR? Buffs that heal or add +regen? Pets?

He currently leaves useful buffs for toHit, recharge and damage. He currently has specific vulnererability to melee damage (yellows) ranged damage (blues) and holds (greens). He calls for as high a burst damage as possible, making Scrappers of all sorts and Tankers with their top-end melee attacks (which are high burst damage by design) valuable. Anyone with a hold is good for taking on greens. Anyone with ranged damage is good for blues. And anyone who can give good mez protection is invaluable. Buff up just one guy to keep each yellow busy and they can keep the heat off the other groups long enough for an entire bloom to be cleared.

Wake up and stop acting like you're being victimized.

I actually had no idea they did that until last night's raid. I popped one to try and run (fly) in and fire a Howling Twilight on a small sea of orange names.

Sadly, I then got a lesson in just how much knockback those things do. I was literally uncontrollably knocked up the hill towards the old "gathering rock" until one of the blasts knocked me behind cover. I saw that I was going to pass people and expose them to AoEs, but could do nothing to stop it.

On the upside, the raiders got a good laugh out of seeing me bounce up the hill that way.

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Prepare to get lynched. ((more :P)) The current forum fanbase is of the opinion that it's perfectly fine for the end game to completely negate half you character, and you'll also have people suggest you use your armors in "new and different ways" such as "Death Shroud for Damage Mitigation and Stacking Cloak of Fear's debuff".

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Baloney. Moreover, the current Hamidon actually allows slightly more powers to be effective. It still cuts out defense and now erdoes the benefit of healing, but it now makes more mez protections useful.

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The dev team's taken a stance to value Debuff/Buff over any characters innate abilities since I5, the new end game raids are just a continuation of that.

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This is clearly about you having an axe to grind, and zero objective experience or consideration of what it takes to make something hard for 50 people. His damage output would have to be maximized in some way to account for the fact that we can cap our protections to him, meaning raids without the max number of people, or without maximized buffs, would be horribly unprepared for him. If they tune his damage output somewhere lower, then raids who can max their defenses would trivialize the raid.

That's not an easy nut to crack.

If Hami honored defense and DR, do you realize how totally we could negate his threat with 50 people?

I'm not saying the current design is anywhere near the best it could be. But last night I attended a raid that succeeded in under three hours. It was the Justice server's first I9 raid ever, most people there didn't even know how Hami had changed, and we succeeded on our first try. This wasn't some uber-SG-based raid. It was an open raid accessible to anyone who attended (up to the zone cap, of course).

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And ultimately turned it into yet another elitism inaccessible to average and casual players.

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Bzzt. Wrong. All it takes is leaders willing to organize the casual players, and enough casual players to show up. The new raid is even more friendly in the sense that it makes more use of all ATs. There's really an important use for melee types now, for example.

If the strategy can be tuned enough, the time on the raids will come down significantly. Since he can be spawned at will by killing GMs, the old once-a-day (or so) limit is now defunct, and more people can actually potentially raid.

The biggest constraint is on finding enough people willing to lead and not just be lemmings. And I say that as someone who's got a strong lemming streak when it comes to raids. Get enough leaders and you can get more raids. More raids = more people getting rewards. More people getting rewards means more access for more-average players.

Stop fixating on how the changes impacted Phase Shift, and look at the big picture.

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Can you explain this? Did Hami sneak up behind us while we were fighting Scirocco?

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Until we hear otherwise, I would consider that a bug, likely introduced by the change. I also suspect that I saw Recluse destroy a PA last night, though it might simply have expired when I saw the event (it wasn't mine).

I would /bug that definitely. The "final four" AVs and Recluse themselves are plenty challenging, and have no need of such tricks. I also know it's not consistent, as we had PA beating on those AVs (and the AVs beating on PAs) for a long time last night.

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So have a good one and enjoy the time waste er.. I mean raids.

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What an elitist bag of wind that post was.

In particular, if you've ever seen how the powers are defined, each is a distinct copy, even if the power is identical in every way to one used by another AT. Even different mobs get different copies of the same power, which is why updating powers is such a huge undertaking. This is why some powers for some ATs are broken in odd ways - someone forgot to update one of the copies.

Or, as Arcana mentioned, the AI for some mobs forgets to use certain powers that they have, even when other mobs do use that power. The devs have often fixed such mobs one an individual basis, suggesting that even the AI settings aren't shared (though the "libraries" of general behavior do seem to be).

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The intrinsic assumption here is that the game is designed as an object-oriented hierarchy. Based on the information we have about how a lot of things function in the game, this appears to be virtually impossible to be true. There have been many instances of the devs admitting that particular critters' AI was malfunctioning to not use particular powers, or use them much less frequently than intended, and that generally centered around specific critters, not all critters in general, which implies changes to the behavior of a specific type of critter is usually isolated from all others of different types (although there are probably generic "behavior libraries" that all the critters can tap into).

Its also very likely that many "special" critters like Hamidon are entities unto themselves, with special coding that determines their basic behavior (separate from certain general things that are likely true by default for all critters, like their tendancy to shoot at you when they detect you).

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I did want to strongly agree here. It's terribly obvious that almost nothing in the game uses any sort of behavioral or value inheritance, even where it would seemingly be very useful and not unduly expensive.

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Hamidon is a form of canary in the cage. If the devs don't think something is worth it for Hamidon, its very likely they won't think its worth it for very much else.

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I think some consideration has to be given to the meaning of "worth it" in this case, however.

The devs had, I think, a strong motivation to even the balance between what heroes could do to get HOs and what villains could. A lot of heroes were clamoring for an RSF. A few villains were clamoring for a Hamidon raid (I know I was). I think the devs spotted that and decided to deliver.

Simultaneously, they realized that the existing Hami raid was not only seriously worn out heroside, it was not going to translate well to villains. So they redesigned it. All in the same scope of development where they were adding one of the biggest changes to the game yet - Inventions.

I think what they did deliver is pretty damn good viewed in that light (please note I'm not implying you said otherwise). I am willing to accept this "hack" on the basis that making Hami 's AI better wasn't "worth it" on the timescale required to fit changing him into I9. That's an assumption on my part, but based on what we know I think it's a well-educated one.

To address the credibility of the change (from an earlier post), I find it neither incredible nor inappropriate. While I don't want to appeal much to the fiction since it's highly variable, comics are rife with beings who were so badass that they could hit intangible or harm otherwise invulnerable foes with minimal effort. Hamidon is supposed to be on a class unlike any other in Co*, and it frankly was odd to me that he wasn't always able to penetrate the inpenetrable or dismiss the illusory.

This isn't a defense, per se, of the devs never doing Hamidon more justice as an entity. He remains a large bag of HP and outrageous damage, and I wouldn't be very credible if I claimed they couldn't ultimately do better than that. But I don't think the change to how he interacts with "Untouchable" has to be indicative of what they might do with his or any other mob's AI. They can be orthoginal concerns.

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That sounds like an interesting weekend challenge...

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When I wrote that, I though of you. Seriously.

In fact, if I hadn't thought of you, I might have been tempted to write something more along the lines of "we'll never see it."

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Actully you cant get 2 HO AND 2 rares a day if you run them twice each.

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You can run each twice. They are on different timers, as I understand it.

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Because beating on anything with 50 people is cool.


[/ QUOTE ]Ill do you one better. Because beating on anything with 50 people is so Laggy that it isnt fun or cool.

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No offense, but get a better computer and this will change. I suffer zero lag at Hami raids until there are over 90 people on the server. I run at full graphics settings, too. (Notably running in safe mode also improves it a great deal for folks with less beefy systems.)

50 people is not sufficient to cause server-side lag at a Hami raid. Some of the fastest pre-I9 raids have been 50-60 people.

Finally:

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A hami raid in 30min? Nope not going to happen. STF/LRSF happens every night that way.

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I think you have your expectations reversed. First of all, 30 minutes is not even remotely normal. That's maximally optimized teams with strong debuffers, full bore use of nukes and/or Shivans, and everything to speed it up. I believe that the eventual availability of a raid to the average player is going to be vastly higher than an STF that runs under an hour.

If that doesn't change, then I think you can expect either the STF/RSF to change, or the tools we're using to breeze through them to. The devs have stated that the two should be comparable in time, if not effort (it's harder to get 50 people in synch). I'll be disappointed if they don't track that.

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The vast majority will choose the first mission, where you were fighting large quantities of weaker foes.

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I can make up statistics or sweeping generalizations too. That doesn't make them truth.

I don't share your opinion on this, and neither do most of the people I play with. Doing what you describe would bore me and many of them, because there's no challenge in it.

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Ex: PA is invincible could be changed to PA is invicible to all, except certain higher level entities.

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That would be fine by my. Of course, it'd be nice if they updated more powers to actually say what the powers do first.

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Also, neither you or I know if the core engine would have to be touched to support larger mass combat, as only the devs know what needs to be done.

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Yes, only the devs know what needs to be done. And they told us this (mass enemies in missions) was stressful to the core game engine. I'm not pulling that out of my nether regions. We know it for a fact.

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The fact that the programming staff and zone/editing staff are not the same is also an aside, as you might still need the programming staff to program the AI for the new behavior in these missions and/or zone (if the new behavior was say for only the moon zone.)

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Yes, it was an aside. I mentioned that actual programming staff might be needed when I said "new mission features". My point in the aside is that new missions and art do not automatically require programmer resources; they can make new missions, new powers and even new mobs using existing tech without programmer resources. Those things would simply work like everything else we already have.

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I don't agree with the cost/beneift analysis being the only thing that should determine if something vary major is undertaken by the devs.

The cost/benefit of inventions versus new ATs, content, epic ats, powersets, zones, and arcs is one example of where sometimes fun trumps cost/benefit analysis.

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Nor do I feel it should be the only thing, and I didn't suggest it should. I was talking specifically about the cost/benefit analysis of improving the core engine to support larger mass combat as a slider setting. I consider the "cost" of that analysis to include time lost for working on new powersets/ATs, new mission features, fixing old bugs and other things that would require programmer resources. (I feel pretty confident that the mission and zone editing staff are not the same as the programming staff.)

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Also the subsequent change to PS should have been noted in the patch notes.

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I don't believe there was a change to PS. There was a change to Hamidon, or possibly to the "Untouchable" status effect (which affects more than PS) to give Hamidon a free pass. None of the changes to Hamidon were enumerated in the patch notes.

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Not true. Challenge can come in numbers, which I have said many times over the years is the first and foremost way the devs could turn this game around.

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The devs have addressed this in the past, when talking about the GDN in I5. People suggested increasing the number of foes instead of nerfing defenses. The response was that the game doesn't handle it well. Imagine an 8-person team where there were 10 foes per player per spawn. The problem isn't the servers but the game engine, and interactions of that with people's client computers. As mentioned, some people can't play with masterminds due to the lag it causes them.

Sure, maybe they could spend time working on the core graphics engine, or the core game event loop which we see slow down at events like Hamidon raids. The question is one of cost/benefit. Is that really going to bring back enough people to bother with the time and effort? It seems to me we might already have the answer to that.

Beyond that, there are balance problems with large numbers of minor foes. AoE powers (and thus AoE powersets) gain a trenendous economy in such situations. Single-target attacks suffer from overkill, making them involve much wasted endurance, while AoEs can apply that overkill to their AoE limit in foes, making them vastly more efficient in both endurance and time. This would almost certainly spill over into other mechanics, such as the current drop rate mechanics of Inventions, which are at least partly on a per-mob basis. People would be farming these "en masse" missions within minutes of their arrival. All things are possible with time and money, but that example alone tells me there would need to be other under-the-hood changes to allow a slider setting like this.

Personally, I can tell you I wouldn't find enjoyable a setting that surrounded me with gimpy foes. As true to classic comic imagery as that is, I don't do that now. I play on the settings that give me fewer, higher-level foes, because I enjoy the harder one-on-one fighting, even consistently from minion to minion, more than I do mowing faster through large numbers of foes. My opinion on this in no way invalidates yours, but I present it to show that your ideas of what would make the game better aren't universal. Could your ideas be a good game? Of course, and maybe better than CoH ... assuming a fresh start with those goals in mind. My perspective is rooted in the history of what this game is now and how it got here, mixed with some of the realities the devs have explained to us about limitations and their own time constraints.

Don't take my perspective, which I consider to be something of a realist's viewpoint, to mean I am a dev fanboy. I'm not. I don't hate the devs, and I don't think they ruined the game. But there are past decisions and new ones with I9 that I despise and don't feel are justified. I think some powersets are still unnecessarily weak. I do think this game can be better than it is. I just don't happen to think that mass solo combat is required for it to be better. I don't think a repeal of the GDN or even ED, which I disliked intensely, are called for.

Nor do I think that making Hamidon able to blast through "Untouchable" status is a sign of a coming nerfpocalypse. Time will tell.

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The game lacks any kind of puzzle solving element, even on an elementary level. Super Heroes are always thinking thier way out of problems.

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Superheroes are part of books. They are a story, read by a reader, who is paced by the author.

I disagree completely that any sort of puzzle solving is consistently present in superhero stories. It depends on the nature of the hero and the plot devices needed by the authors. Heroes do things ranging from beating the tar out of people, convincing them to turn a new leaf, or whatever in between. Actual "puzzling" over the solution is very rare for quite a few iconic characters, and many cases where they would do so would be incredibly boring to actually act out in a game. I don't want to play Mister Fantastic or the Beast designing some new gadget or researching a mysterious disease.

Moreover, I don't want to solve puzzes really at all. I enjoy endlessly beating the crap out of mobs. In that sense I'm Cryptics perfect customer, and I'm the kind of player that vindicates their model for this game. Combat engine first and foremost, and everything that goes into it improves or expands on that.

Responding to the thread more generally, improving the AI and whatnot is fine, to a point. But I still feel heroic in this game. I don't have a character one over 40 that can't take on 6-10 +2 foes, and most can take on that many +3s at decent risk, all often without having to resort to long-recharge powers or inspirations. I happen to think that's pretty good.

Do I miss the days of taking on 30-60 foes? Yeah. I also know it was broken. I knew it then, too; I knew someday it would go away, because it was unevenly distributed (even more than it is now) and made certain things that should have been more useful largely useless. Do I agree with all the mechanics of how they changed the game? Definitely not. Do I feel they ruined the game with those changes? Definitely not.