TwilightPhoenix

Sorry, just didn't want to take up a lot of space by quoting several paragraphs.

I can appreciate the thought and math you put into that to come to your conclusion. And, in the long term play, it's probably all more or less accurate. Though, when you talk about short term fighting, such as a single encounter with a mob, it's probably not so accurate. For HP, Resistance, Regen, and Healing, yes it'd probably match up perfectly. Defense, however, confounds it all by being all or nothing. Assuming no other mitigation, defense by itself either stops all the damage or none of the damage. That 900 damage swing, if it connects, still does 900 damage (unless you're fighting someone like Cimerorans and it crits). So, while having X amount of defense might be like having Y amount of HP, you can still get two-shotted by a fraction of damage below your Y HP.

In short, you can probably describe defense as luck manipulation rather than adding raw HP, at least for the short term. It's not reliable like, say, Resistance, which always provides its protection. You can get enough that it'll protect you most of the time, but I've even had my /SR Scrapper, soft-capped, go from 100% to 0% before I knew what hit me on occasion.

Also, streak breakers.

For the long term, I suspect you're pretty much right on, or at least in the right direction. I'm not a math person, so I can't check it myself. For the short term, the values would probably be quite different and I'm not sure how close. If I recall, Arcannaville had some good short term equations she used when she compared the survivability of the Scrapper secondaries back when there was only four.

I guess it's not so obvious to me since powers like Heat Loss and Force Bubble are so dramatically different we may as well compare different species of fruits. Particularly since a number of FF's more "unique" powers can't be quantified on a spreadsheet. Much, if not all, of Cold can. The powers provide v debuffs and w buffs for x targets over y amount of time and recharge in z amount of time. Powers like Force Bubble don't work like that. Using said bubble as an example, it doesn't repel x targets for y time, it does it when the target meets the bubble, whether they ran into it or the bubble ran into them. Additionally, the mitigation it provides largely depends on both positioning and what you're fighting. Rikti Drones, for example, have no melee attacks and therefore Force Bubble mitigates 0% damage against them. In contrast, enemies who's ranged attacks are only short range, such as many shotgun toting enemies, may not be able to move close enough to even attack, thus causing Force Bubble to provide 100% mitigation.

Both are edge cases, of course, but still serve to show that some powers have too many variables and/or are too different to really compare them with. Or, at least, that's why I wouldn't compare them. Buff/debuff sets provide a huge amount of variety among each other. That's what's so awesome about them. But, on the other hand, it can make direct comparisons a pain.


And now, to move away from responding to a specific post...

There's one big issue with this (and other) Cold vs FF discussions: the level 50 Defender on a helpless or perfect team vacuum. It seems as though almost everyone is assuming these are Defenders, when they could be Controllers, Masterminds, or Corruptors (I know MMs don't have CD and Cors FF yet, but we know their modifiers and would know how strong the sets would be on them). It seems almost everyone is assuming level 50, when there's 49 other levels too. It also seems almost everyone is either assuming the Cold/FF is providing the sole source of team mitigation or the team already has perfect mitigation.

So, big question: which set interacts with more general teams better? Who works better with an Empath? What about a level 30 Empath? 12 Empath? 48 Empath? What about the Dominator? What if he's Elec/Stone? What if he's Fire/NRG? What about an Ice Tank? Invuln Tank? Super Strength Scranker? Level 50 SOed? Common IOed? Set IOed? Uber set IOed? A newb and totally unslotted but otherwise well played? A newb and poorly played but otherwise uberly slotted? What about the Stalker? What if the Stalker is some weird stealth-support specced Stalker relying on Medicine, Leadership, and Concealment to buff and heal teammates from Hide? What about the Brute's Fury Bar? Which set generates more fury? What about Scrappers? Will they care if you're even on the team shielding them while they solo +4/x8 spawns as they typically do? What about Fusionette and Lady Jane? Which set will let them survive going Leeroy Jenkins mode better? What about that level 1 Hellion Slicer taunting you? Which set has more amusing powers to use on said foe?

Next big question: other power options! Which works better with Sonic Attack? Ice Blast? Rad Blast? Psy Blast? Bots? Thugs? Fire Control? Illusion? Gravity? Leadership? Presence? Teleportation? Fire Mastery? Earth Mastery? Mu Mastery? Throwing Sharks? Warburg Nukes? Which set does better against Hamidon? Which set works better just with Hami-Os? Will my set make a cottage if I use Build Up?


Ok, I know some of those are silly and non-sensical, but there's still a lot more variables that haven't even been scratched. For example, a Cold could use Dark Blast to make up for the rest of the way to the softcap. A FFer could abuse Dispersion Bubble with control set's AoE auras with little worry about them getting turned off by mezzes. Cold can grief RPers on fire-themed toons better, whereas FF can grief melee toons better. And so on.

I bet someone is thinking "You don't really need to worry about all that." Of course not, this is CoH. You can survive and accomplish much in this game with whatever team you throw together as long as everyone knows what they're doing. But, if you want to go into uber min-maxing for maximum pwnage, might as well consider all variables!

As any good Storm/Energy Blast/Energy Assault/Energy Manipulation/Peacebringer/Gravity Control player would probably tell you , if you're annoying the team you're doing it wrong. As a disclaimer, I don't fall under good Storm due to lacking a Storm user. The other sets I've used at various levels of extensivity (I know that's not a word) to be familiar with how to use them. Most teams don't even realize (or just don't say anything) my Grav Controller is using Wormhole as much as possible, a power well known for ticking off teams when used poorly.


Thankfully, aggro does not work like that in CoX. Now if you go chasing after him, toss a fireball after him, or the Dark/ had him used as an anchor (at which point your team is free to ridicule you if you Force Bolt an anchor), then you'll aggro that second group. Now if this game had, say, Aion's aggro mechanics, you'd have a big point here.

Also, I'd like to introduce you to knockback's good friend, Mr. Wall. They get along very well. Mr. Wall also likes Sleet (and similarly targeted powers), because you can use him to cast from out of Line of Sight. Unfortunately, Mr. Wall isn't present in some areas and you do have to take that into consideration if you're leveraging knockback or Sleet.


Again, if you're having to wait and it wasn't an emergency use or an "Ok, everybody use Rest!" moment in an AV fight, which I'll admit is extremely uncommon on decent or better mid-level+ teams, it was a bad use of Detention. Of course, the power is still situation, that I won't argue. However, I will argue that situation powers are awesome in the situations that they'd be good in. It's like taking a Rez on an Empath. You shouldn't need it because nobody should be getting killed. It's highly situational. But if someone does go down, you'll be glad you had it.


Anyway, remember, I'm not arguing FF is better than Cold. And I'm not going to argue it. So, constantly replying to me will just have me taking pot shots at different parts of your posts without directly addressing your "Cold > FF" position.

Though, back at your 8 vs 35 argument, I could tell you how a lot of other Defender/Controller/Corruptor/Mastermind sets could handle it if you'd like. Pretty much every set would have something they could do to save the team in that situation (or just use Vengeance).

Wormhole is like Storm Summoning: poor use is very disastrous and extremely obvious. Unlike Storm though, excellent use generally goes unnoticed. Nobody says anything when the group flickers for a moment and is suddenly stunned because you Wormholed them to the same spot, rather than being scattered to the four corners of the map. But when you have a team that can handle Wormhole's maximum potential, then it's just ridiculous.

Before I reply, I'll go ahead and say no trio will be perfect and the "best" one will always be subjective. There will be holes and always something you can sub that'll make it better in one area though worse in another. To respond point by point...

-Corruptors get neither Empathy or Force Field. Your only other options for those powersets are Controllers or, for the latter, Masterminds. Both have lower buff/debuff values Additionally, against any target that matters, the highest resistance debuff values in Sonic attacks should outweigh the lower damage cap, especially against single hard targets where you're not likely to be capped by Fulcrum Shift.

-At softcapped defense for the other teammates by 22 if the FFer takes Maneuvers and slots it, very little will get through to hurt the trio. FF can reach the softcap itself with a little bit of IO slotting and good power picks, or maybe just via slotted Fortitude. What does make it through can easily be patched by the Kin or Emp. Defense Debuffs are an issue, though this can be mitigated via Siren's Song to sleep the majority of the mob before taking down problem targets and by Empathy's heals/regen/extra defense from Fort. Alphas are never an issue. A FF Defender has access to Personal Force Field right out of the gate, which adds massive defense and resistance.

-While issues with defense debuffs and lack of resistance can show in some instances, the team would be quite strong at all levels. The FFer would be providing tons of resistance, controls via knockback/down and stun, emergency Detention Fields, and the ability to keep everything out of melee range. The Kin would provide healing, massive damage buffs, recharge buffs, recovery buffs, regeneration debuffs, recharge debuffs, super speed for everyone, super jump for everyone, and endurance recovery. The Empath would provide massive heals, massive regeneration, massive recovery buffs, recharge buffs, accuracy buffs, damage buffs, defense buffs, and emergency rezzing. Probably the best way to patch the trio's few weaknesses would be to add a Thermal or a Sonic Res to add resistances, though that'd be a quartet. Alternatively, as staying a trio, they could all simply pick up an APP with resistance shields.

One change I'd make to my trio would be to swap out someone's Sonic Attack for Ice Blast. Ice Storm and Blizzard use Blaster base damage. So, after massive sonic debuffing and kin damage buffing, the Ice Blast Defender would be doing a huge mess of damage while still retaining Defender buff/debuff values. Plus it'd add a bit more AoE to the group than going three-straight Sonic Attack would. Hard targets would be a little bit harder, but it should still be a non-issue.

Hey, what's wrong with ratgirls? They, or mine at least, aren't running around swimming in sewers.



I actually have a whole series of screenies with those catgirls from a rather spur of the moment photo shoot. Ahnya, my ratgirl, only appears in that one and one other of it, however.

In other news, took this one yesterday. Looked cooler in-game with all the bubbles rotating though.

That would be one, albeit not the one I intended to point out. Though I do wish we had proper head options to make characters like Fox. Even if we didn't get other parts to match, I'd at least be able to do it and cover the rest of the body with clothes/armor/whatever. That or make Egyptian gods.