Tremere_NA

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Contrary to popular belief, the customer is not always right. Using "what the customer wants is what the customer gets" as the way to run a business is a very shortsighted way to do so.


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Well I'm sorry to inform you that you are wrong here. In a business world, the customer is alwaysright whether you personally feel they are or not. By making the customer happy will ensure that this customer will return to your business and spend more money.


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Again I ask... then why hasnt ED been reversed? Sometimes Beef_Cake its best to NOT do what the customer wants. The way businesses REALLY work (yes welcome to reality) is to apease the majority. In this case the majority of the players want new content. Period.

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There are a large number of wants coming from the customers. ustomer satisfaction also includes deciding what wants the customer has will get fufilled.

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Actually I believe the phrase is " Needs -vs- Desires "

People on this thread "Desire" the Isolator badge, however CoX "Needs" more content that is relevant to the ENTIRE player base, not just satisfying the "Desires" of a select few. As stated by others the man power it'd take to code a way to obtain Isolator is taking away from the "Needs" of the ENTIRE player base. And as Ive stated over and over again, those who "Desired" to have Isolator very well could have earned it at anytime (now or in the past)

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(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.

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The devs doing something because the customers want it is *not* a valid reason to do something.

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A restaurant that had such an attitude would not stay in business long. Making customers happy is the first, last and always the most important part of any business model.

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But there has to be a vision in which the business operates. They need to try to keep the customers happy, but, first and foremost, they need to follow the plan that they have to grow their business. Any extensive reading of the forums will show that the population of a MMORPG will, if you take all the things that people want the devs to do, the devs would have to impliment everything under the sun, and many contradictory items.


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People that are for Isolator being introduced keep harking on the fact that its customer service. Well I have a question for these ppl. What did you do when....

1. The nerfed Regen into oblivion.
2. The nerfed Fire Tanks (esp Burn)
3. They introduced Supression
4. Introduced ED
5. All but stopped Dreck Farming
6. All but stopped Kraken Farming

Sure there are individuals who are still upset over any # of these changes (and many more) but they have learned to accept it and moved on. Its no different from Isolator.

Why not make a thread saying that the customer base wants ED removed and since its customer satisfaction they should do it!!! Why havent the devs removed ED since its customer satisfaction? Answer that.

There are numerous examples as to why sometimes a business must not pay attention to customer desires and instead take its own course of action. Did ED ruin this game? Absolutely not. Will not introducing a way to obtain Isolator ruin this game? Absolutely Not.

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And there was no way I was rerolling him because of all the time and levels invested in him already.

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Like Ive stated over and over and over and over and over again... I'll restate it ONE last time. That was your choice. Time & lvls invested is just a cop out. Noone was standing behind you telling you to not roll a toon and obtain Isolator at I2. You choose NOT to earn Isolator. That was your choice. My choice was to earn it. So, what do you propose I get for my efforts? Its not fair to me that you just be awarded a way to earn Isolator that I had to lvl up a new toon for.

Ok here is a compromise... and should make everyone happy. Give you folks a way to earn Isolator. And I'll gladly take both

Problem solved. Surely there is no way you can argue with that. I get 2 badges to showcase my desire to roll a new toon around I2 and you folks get your Isolator badge. Problem solved.

Shame you have me on ignore because you are obviously ignoring my rebutal to your claims. Here is what you just said...

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(3) IT DOESN’T MATTER
“So what if your character doesn’t have this badge? It doesn’t do anything. Get over it.”

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Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?

If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.

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Straw man again. I already answered this (in the part that you cut out). And you also seem to be confused about what *I* am saying. I have never said “it doesn’t matter so give it to us.” Never, never, never once. Go back and re-read what I actually posted please.

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So, what was it that you posted originally?

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(3) IT DOESN’T MATTER
“So what if your character doesn’t have this badge? It doesn’t do anything. Get over it.”

Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. Besides, as you pointed out, “it doesn’t matter” can go either way. If it doesn’t matter, then let us earn it. Badge collecting is a part of the game. It’s important to some of us, just like PvP is important to others. Just because it isn’t important to you doesn’t not somehow prove that it is objectively unimportant.

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Note the bold orange which I added myself... and my analysis of this shortly thereafter....

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If it matters to you, and its important to some of you... Why didnt you earn it when you had the chance?

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Still waiting for a rational answer to this. The only one I've heard so far is that " I didnt want to delete my lvl 50". Well noone said you had to, just create a new toon at I2's release.

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As I said before, I am happy for you. But, this does not convince me that I should be denied it on my pre-issue 2 character.


--Rad

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It has nothing to do with intelegence... it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that I made my choice to Earn Isolator, you apparently did not. That was your choice. As with all choices you must live with the consequences. Thats the point. I fully understand that the truth ticks you off and you are upset, but I'll be upset if the devs cave and give you and otehrs a way to obtain something that I worked hard to get.

Somepeople just dont get it.

EDIT: for myself and others like me, our consequence was spending more time lvln up a new toon. Deal

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Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?

If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.

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It doesn't matter when the badge is removed from the game. Until then, anyone who has an existing character from prior to Issue 2 is denied the opportunity of getting the badge with that character.

Even though others deleted a character and created a character with the same name, they are is still playing a post Issue 2 character.

--Rad

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Actually, some of us were smart enough to create a new toon WITHOUT having to delete any of our pre-I2 toons

My I2 toon simply became my namesake & my badge toon heh, what a novel concept.

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If this is the best argument you’ve seen, then you haven’t been paying attention. “It doesn’t really matter” is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.

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I've seen all the other arguments, I just think they're totally unconvincing. It's the only argument presented that I feel has any weight whatsoever.

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(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE

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There are a lot more customers that would prefer to see ED or I5 done away with, or any of 1000 other changes that have been made to the game. But I'm glad the devs don't change things just because players ask, because most suggestions (including this one) are pointless and/or bad for the game.

Beyond that, it's quite clear that there's a significant number of people that don't want to see this, and so your customer service point works in their favor just as well.

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(2) FAIRNESS

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Life is not fair, nor is anything in it, I don't find this to be a convinving reason. We're not even talking about two different powersets here, where one might be performing better than the other, this is just a badge (which, does not matter), that you want and you can't get. Fairness is completely irrelevant.

And again, it's just as unfair to those who did restart their toons to make a special exception for you to get the badge just because you didn't restart your toon like others did. It just doesn't seem fair to you. Afterall, if so many others figured out that that was the only way to get isolator, and managed to do it in time to get the other event badges, why should they lose out on their uniqueness, because you don't think its fair?


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(1) TOO DIFFICULT TO IMPLEMENT

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The argument is NOT that it would be too difficult to implement, it's that the devs could be working on more important things with their time. This would be an example of one of your straw men.

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(3) IT DOESN’T MATTER
“So what if your character doesn’t have this badge? It doesn’t do anything. Get over it.”

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Again, if something doesn't matter, when does it not matter enough that the devs are justified in saying no?

If you respond to any of this post, answer this question. It's the crux of the issue, to me.

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(5) THE BADGE TEXT WOULD BE MESSED UP
“It says you began your career on a high note. If you get Isolator at lvl 50, it’s not the beginning of your career now, is it?”

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You're glossing over this because you don't want to admit its a completely valid point. Everyone who earned isolator the correct way completed the task as it's stated on the badge, and now you want to change it, just so it can fit your needs.

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(7) PERSONAL ATTACKS
“You’re all just a bunch of whiners who want to show off your uber l337 status.” Or “You don’t have it - HA HA get over it!”

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By harping on this, you only make your position look that much lless fortified. If you don't like what someone says to you, ignore it. Going off on them for using what you consider to be personal attacks (although they are generally on topic WRT this thread), just makes you look bad. Respond to an argument if they have one, but trying to tell them how you disapprove of the method in which they argue just makes you look silly.

I have still not seen any argument more convincing than it doesn't matter. You may think that you have made quality arguments to the contrary, but in effect, most of those arguments apply to the people opposed to the change as well.

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QFT

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if I was denied the content because I had passed it, then there would be a entirely different topic on the forums now wouldn't it

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But you DID pass it... you passed the tutorial on your Main. And now you want to go back and get the reward for something you passed, when it would have been soo easy to just roll a new toon then. But alass you choose NOT to and yet you still want your reward.

I fail to understand what is so tough for you all to grasp... It was a choice that each of you made... To go back and earn isolator or not. Those that chose not to now want their reward, sorry if you get no sympathy from me.

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But I have been through everything in this game with my main. "Everything"

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Impossible, there is no way you have all the arcs completed from Croatoa & Striga let alone all of the temp powers from them. Again, Impossible

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If this is the best argument you’ve seen, then you haven’t been paying attention. “It doesn’t really matter” is actually such a lame position that holding it up and talking about it borders on the use of a straw man argument.

I and several others have presented much better:


(1) CUSTOMER SERVICE
A large number of people do want this badge on their pre-i2 characters. Allowing us to get this badge will make us happy. Happy customers are loyal customers and more likely to remain customers in the future. The quick growth of threads like this one shows that there is a large demand for the badge.

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You had that chance, all you had to do was reroll at I2, but you and others like you choose NOT to, and now you want your reward.


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(2) FAIRNESS
Isolator is unique of all the badges. It is the only badge that has ever been released which could not be obtained by characters in existence at the time it was created. Anyone who entered CoH after i2 can get this badge, but pre-i2 characters cannot. Even those few who actually met the requirements for getting the badge before i2 cannot get the badge.

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Fairness? What about whats fair to those of us who DID reroll to obtain Isolator?!?

Both of your "best" arguments are highly flawed. So unless someone wants to come up with a decent explanation as to why those who choose NOT to reroll back in I2 should be allowed to obtain Isolator, I again reiterate... Tough!

EDIT: as you state also "
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(3) IT DOESN’T MATTER
“So what if your character doesn’t have this badge? It doesn’t do anything. Get over it.”

Well, it matters to me, and to many other people by all accounts. ... It’s important to some of us,

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If it matters to you, and its important to some of you... Why didnt you earn it when you had the chance? Especially if it means so much to you.... seems stupid if something means so much to you and is so important that you'd wait over a yr to claim it

You are abosultely correct... my bad for not realizing you dont understand the concept of " tutorial "

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I was not going to delete a level 50 where I spent all of my time and money to get him to 50 for a badge.

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And thats the crux of the problem.... you had a choice... you made yours. Others did choose to delete (or simply create a new toon). The point is, you made your choice TO NOT earn Isolator back then, so WHY should you be rewarded now?


That folks is the problem in a nutshell... and exactly why I hope Positron is paying attention and decides to NEVER give a way to earn isolator...

Beefcake, you and others made your choice... dont punish those of us who made the other choice.

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No one in this thread is asking for anything more then a chance to earn the badge which they never had the right to earn when the badge was introduced to all of us.


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You had that chance ( and heck you STILL DO) just create a new toon... you could have done it then, you can do it now.
SIMPLE AS THAT!!!!!

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LMAO!!! In any context, what collector is going to through away all their collectables, including the rares they know they may not get back for one item?

Honestly, this has been covered.

--Rad

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Nothing stopped you for anyone else from restarting their toons MONTHS ago.... thats the bottom line... you didnt have to throw away ANYTHING, simple earn isolator around I2... by creating a new toon then... those that didnt, want the easy way out... simple as that.

Edit: as far as the collector point of view... Ive already stated I support a new badge being added that simply says " I predate badges " (well not that exactly but HOPEFULLY you get the point... hedging my bets though)

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If you or anyone else is jealous of that , then thats your problem you too can accomplish the same thing if you are dedicated as I am.

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I am dedicated.... I have isolator, ofcourse I was smart enough to restart my toon

As for your badge count.... I wouldnt take pride in finding ways to exploit wholes in the game system that the devs overlooked... for example: earning the badge for defeating Kronos... that should be a hero only badge, yet your proudly boast that you've earned it. Even after Pos has said that this was a mistake. The fact that you want to increase your badge count by earning Isolator falls in this category as well... sad, very very sad

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No one in this thread is asking for anything more then a chance to earn the badge which they never had the right to earn when the badge was introduced to all of us.


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You had that chance ( and heck you STILL DO) just create a new toon... you could have done it then, you can do it now.
SIMPLE AS THAT!!!!!

Edit: unless I missed something, NOTHING stopped you from creating a new toon when Isolator & badges were introduced. Deal with it.

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A little oversimplifying aren't you? All badges are being at the right place at the right time. Truely, the only badges that fit that criteria is Celebrant, Heart Of Darkness, and Jetsetter/Longbow Reservist. Why? Because only those require no more then being online between the given times. All others require some action in game action by the player such as exploring the city, reading the historical plaques, or deafeating certain enemies.

Also from my original post I said it does not bother me not having it.

I don't agree with your assement. And I will leave it at that.

--Rad

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Realize this.... The "action" of obtaining Isolator is creation of a toon. This places said individual in the right place at the right time to collect this badge. Even then there is an option to completely bypass the Tutorial. Should those individuals be allowed to obtain isolator?!? I guess that becomes the real question. If you want all badges easily obtained, why not ask Positron to just grant every toon created all badges... period. Thats essentially what ppl asking to have a means of obtaining Isolator want. Simply put, its not fair to those who DID recreate a toon and start all over in the tutorial just to earn that badge. Nothing stopped you, nothing stopped anyone who posted in this thread.

So I guess what all of you want is a new option to appear when creating a new toon...
" would you like to skip the tutorial and be given this nice shiny new badge... oh and how about we lvl you up to lvl 30 since you've already done the first 30 lvls a few dozen times. While we are at it we'll give you 50 mill in Influence and how does a 12x12 base fully loaded sound? Great we knew you'd like it. "

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I disagree. There is a world of difference in missing an event that ran for a specified timeframe and a permanent badge that had the system been in place at the time would have been obtained.

For me personally, I do not mind not having isolator. But, it would be lying to say that I would love to have it. I would do whatever task they set before me to get it. At least, short of deleting and recreating my collector. Because losing the badges I have now is paramont cutting off my nose despite my face.

--Rad

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no difference at all. The time you chose to play the character in did not qualify for a particular badge. Whether it be a zone specific badge, or a kills badge, whatever it may be. The character does not have the badge, because during the time the character was created and played, there was no badge.

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Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The difference to me is that those other badges were especially created for each of those events. This is not a limited event like Halloween or the Winter Lord. Isolator is a permanent badge.

I realize why he does not have the badge. I said in my post.

--Rad

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As noted, it is no different... Isolator began to show up on X date & time. The halloween badges showed up on Y date & time. The one yr aniv badge showed up on Z date & time. Its NO different. Time line badges are for being in the right place at the right time. They are NOT hunt badges, exploration badges, history badges, mission badges, etc. They are for being present at the right place at the right time. Thats it, its that simple. Any toons created before the creation of badges simply were not in the right place (outbreak) at the right time. How is that any different? These individuals could have created a new toon at that point in time and obtained said badge, but no... they rather complain over a yr later. It would have been SOOOO easy to just create a new toon then and obtain it.

So aparently you've never seen Beefcake's sig?!? Nor Burnin_Ups?

Beefcakes:

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Proud Member & Captain of Jagged Legion
Pinnacle's Leading Badge Holder for CoH and CoV

Beef Cake - 318 Badges
Day Walker - 209 Badges

Global Handle: @Beef Cake


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Burnin_Ups...
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Hero's
Burnin Up 50 F/F Tank 315 Badges (#1 on Infinity for /#5 overall in COH)
Urban War Hero 48 AR/DEV
Mr. Mindbender 50 ILL/RAD
Representative 28 PB
Villain's
Burnin Fury 40 F/F Brute 196 Badges (Bug Hunter)
The Bone Grinder 38 N/D MM
Chargin Up 28 E/E Stalker

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Thats just to name 2.... of which Beefcake posted only like 3 posts above yours jeez... can you read? lmao

As stated by SherrickM... Certain badges have a time-line requriement. If your toon was created before the event of said badge, tough. Its no different than creating a toon after an event and then expecting that badge to mysteriously show up, just cause. Nothing stopped these individuals from creating a new toon (Now or several issues ago) and obtain Isolator. I also agree with Memphis_Bill that their should be a badge that simply says " your toon predates badges ", but as he pointed out, others would complain about this as well.


No, you missed the point.

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This WHOLE thread is nothing but a bunch of whiners who have thier precious badge count posted in their Signature as some sort of "oh look how uber I am".

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Simple ad hominim.

Please look at the bottom of this post. See the sig file? How many badge counts do you see there?

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You missed the point

SherrickM gets it...

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I disagree. There is a world of difference in missing an event that ran for a specified timeframe and a permanent badge that had the system been in place at the time would have been obtained.

For me personally, I do not mind not having isolator. But, it would be lying to say that I would love to have it. I would do whatever task they set before me to get it. At least, short of deleting and recreating my collector. Because losing the badges I have now is paramont cutting off my nose despite my face.

--Rad

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no difference at all. The time you chose to play the character in did not qualify for a particular badge. Whether it be a zone specific badge, or a kills badge, whatever it may be. The character does not have the badge, because during the time the character was created and played, there was no badge.

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This WHOLE thread is nothing but a bunch of whiners who have thier precious badge count posted in their Signature as some sort of "oh look how uber I am". Well I got news for you folks, this here is the truth on the matter...


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Here's my biggest beef with the whole "I want isolator" thing...

We have a *small* percentage of people - *very* early badge hunters - who want the devs to code, test, and implement a system for them to go back and get... a badge. A badge that, as has been stated, does *nothing* but sit there and look - well, like it's there.

I have yet to hear any of them stick up and say "While we're at it, people should be able to get Celebrant, even though their toons weren't here at the 1 year mark, and get XYZ badge that are also now not obtainable."

Of course, if *any* of that were possible, it'd pretty much take any meaning out of the badges themselves, now, wouldn't it...

I'd be perfectly fine with them being datamined for character creation date and just auto-given, say, a "Mythic" badge for being around pre-badges... of course, I'm sure several would *still* complain they couldn't get isolator... and we'd have newer badgehunters complaining they couldn't get *that* badge.

Me, I'd rather see the time and effort put into new content, or fixing the preexisting bugs.

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So you missed out on ONE badge, big whoop... heaven forbid the devs dont humor you by allowing you to increase that badge count in your sig by +1. Sad, very very sad.

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Well another patch. One new badge (yay new badge) and a pile of ones that remain broken (not money).

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Speaking of badges that are still broken... Has anyone tried taking out 100 Longbow to see if it awards the Villain badge now. I'm STILL waiting to unlock Jaegar *sigh*

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Thank's Friggin, ill be updating my list under the virtue forums today.

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I'd hold off if I were you... lets take a closer look at that list provided by Taser...

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I've got a list from a redname in a PM about which gladiators aren't available for Heroes and only unlocked through CoV means. These include:

Arachnobot
Longbow Rifleman
Arachnoids
Crab Spider Longfang
Tarantula
Night Widow
Gremlin
Red Hand
Wolf Spider Tac-Ops
Mook Capo
Coralax Blue Hybrid
Tellus Legacy of Earth
Hellfrost
Juicer Sniper
Hordeling Lasher
Kaolin Legacy of Earth
Ember Legacy of Flame
Lucent Legacy of Light
Mook
Night Haunt
Slag Pile
Wailer
Wailer Queen
Wolf Spider Enforcer

The Following Gladiator is currently not active in the game as far as the redname knew:
Sorceror

That leaves the following possible Gladiators to rule out in CoH:
Smasher Elite
Shivan Destroyer
Behemoth Overlord
Longbow Warden 1
Mu Guardian (Which the redname said specifically is for defeating Mu)


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Since Taser didnt site his Redname source, I'll play devils advocate for a second and draw your attention to something. Note, I"m saying I have no clue who the redname was that he got that list from, but I am saying whoever gave him that list... well... you figure it out....

Notice anything missing from that list....

anything....


Cobra!!! And last I checked there are no zones in CoH that have snakes in them, so unless this badge is obtainable in another manor, that redname is wrong. Like I said, I'd hold off on that list Plasma

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There is no Shivan gladiator in CoH.

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Unless confirmed by a Redname, I'd be hesitant on saying there is NO to anything at this point concerning Gladiators. Truth is there may be 100 gladiators we have yet to unlock. Who knows what all is out there. Everytime someone posts a glad unlocked via a hunt that isnt associated with a badge, well that screams that much more is still to come. CoV / I6 hasnt been out long enough for anyone to assertively say yes or no to anything. Sure some web sites say this or say that. Honestly, those same sites have been listing Arena badges since I4 LOL so I wouldnt go by what they say.

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I tried this with a friend. He took his villain and fielded 3 snakes every time. We fought 11 battles, and I had done 2 battles before where i might have killed 2 snakes or so.

My total amount should have been 33-35 Snakes (Cobras) then. I knew that I got the Mongoose Badge at 31 Snakes with my villain, but my Hero didn't get it then.

So sadly, it seems that this option is either bugged, or not intended to be possible for Heroes/Villains.

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People were earning Glad badges in Arena matches about the same time they were earning Xp / Infl / Salvage in Beta. The patch that fixed that exploit I believe also fixed it so that defeats in glad battles will not count towards hunt badges. Thus I dont think you will be able to aquire Cobra or Gremlin in this mannor. Likewise you shouldnt be able to aquire freak tanks, or Crey power tanks, or DE bladegrass like this either.