TopDoc

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry I haven't been around TopDoc. Had some RL issues to take care of. I'll get up with you guys in the next day or so and do the bankroll I promised.

[/ QUOTE ]

No problem. I'd just like to have some Influence on hand for when I5 goes live. Making mostly Tech heroes and fighting higher level Tech mobs should help a lot, but 12-27 are usually pretty thin times.

[ QUOTE ]
On the subject of Electric secondary and Transference and End Drain:

Transference does do end drain, but it is single target only, and unless you spend slots on it, it "generally" will not drain them to zero. So you really cannot use it to seriously debuff a mob, even with multiple Kinetics. It does give awesome End Recov though.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found that out. The long description says single target, but the short description says Targeted AoE. It turns out the Targeted AoE is for the team END buff, not the drain. I've heard that 3 slotted or so it will drain a mob dry, and we'll have plenty of slots. It'll be nice for recharging after a BIG NUKE. But it's not a complete replacement for Short Circuit.

[ QUOTE ]
Elec Secondary - If nobody else wants this, I'll be thrilled to take it...

[/ QUOTE ]

I expect we'll have plenty, as that's one of the combinations I was recommending earlier. And I've said I won't turn people down based on their secondary. And we've had plenty of people already making their Kins to level up to 14 that are Electric. I'll live with it. In fact, Tanker Wannabe is my level 14 Kin/Elec. But I may end up playing my new Kin/Dark more, Dark TankMage.

But I'm still waiting for someone to give me a good reason to CARE about draining mob END. Squishies care about mobs attacking. Low damage dealers care about mobs healing. Transference can probably handle bosses. Is there any faction that has Minions or Lts that can cause a serious problem for us? The only thing I've ever heard of that comes close is Sappers, and I'd guess that Speed Boost gives us immunity to END drain. Controlling mobs is conventional wisdom that we may be able to simply discard.

[ QUOTE ]
Quickette: I have been reading your thread and I really wanted to join but I am afraid that since I am from Europe that I would have a hard time teaming with you guys due to timezone differences.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can find some people to play with regularly in your own timezone, feel free to copy my idea. Make your own SG and we can use Coalition Chat if we're on at the same time.

[ QUOTE ]
5th_Player: I don't really go for a full defender team because I like to get teams as diverse as possible, since a well diverse team really creates a really strong team.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not looking to create a really strong team. I'm looking to create a SuperTeam. A ridiculously overpowered SuperTeam. One where every member is chain casting damage capped AoEs at Resistance debuffed mobs. That's at least an order of magnitude more damage than a diverse team. One where every member can tank anything, AVs included. I want to see if we can beat AVs in 10 seconds, rather than the 20 seconds it usually takes Buffer Overrun. All of these things are well beyond the capabilities of even really good diverse teams.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, when I5 goes live, I intend to find someone and send a tell... maybe you need to spot some recruiters in atlas or something.

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't turn anyone down (as long as they have the proper primaries), but I'm not looking to recruit random people off the street. I want people who understand the idea behind the SuperTeam. I want people who have read this thread, and know what powers to pick and how to slot them. I'd rather not have an SG full of people who ask me what power to take or slot every level. There seems to be enough interest that there will be several teams running nightly, and that's all I'm looking for. The easiest way to get in is to join the global chat channel and ask.

Radiation's two low level AoE attacks have long recharge times, similar to Electrics. You can't cycle them very quickly. And they don't have a reliable secondary effect. You'll only hit 10 (?) mobs with the Defense debuff from Irradiate and Electron Haze. In the New World Order with max number of targets, buffs on your team are better than debuffs on the enemy. Team buffs are always in effect, while enemy debuffs only affect the limited number that you hit.

Every character can only have one Primary and one Secondary. By taking Tactics, we can ensure that we always hit. That means we can skip over Radiation and pick a more useful Secondary. Either one that does more damage (Dark) or one that increases the team damage (Sonic). The AoE damage and recharge is no where near balanced in the Defender secondaries.

The team is going to have to live with Knockback. Mobs are going to be knocked back all the time. Half of the team (all of the /Sonics) are going to be using Shockwave every 5 seconds. The Darks might get Torrent as well. In fact, the constant Knockback might be more effective than the bubbles at protecting us!

I realized when looking over a build today that Transference (level 26 Kinetics power) is an AoE END Drain. I don't recall noticing that before (or maybe I'm just getting old). The mobs up till 26 aren't a very big problem. Using the "one primary and one secondary" idea, I should have skipped over the Electric scondary. I don't want to tell people to scrap their characters, but I'll say that future Kinetics should be Kin/Dark. I made up "Dark TankMage" tonight and levelled her up to 8.4 pretty easily.

[ QUOTE ]
Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: "Tank Mages" on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 4 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Note: Kin/Elec will do too
Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have a concept char who will not take a "super" travel power. Instead I intend to take swift(1 slot), sprint(3 slot), hurdle(3 slot), quickness(1 slot) and combat jumping(1 slot). I am curently at lvl 34 with my Kat/SR, do you think this is a viable travel power given the natural concept? What kind of enhancements do you suggest for hurdle? I read that it can be slotted for both jumping speed and jumping height.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jumping with Hurdle is definitely a viable travel power. Hurdle is the biggest bonus by far out of all of those powers, so you would be best off putting all of your slots in it. As I mentioned in the guide, I had inconsistent results testing jumping. I'd say 5 slot it. There is only a single type of Jumping Enhancement.

Combat Jumping gives you mid-jump control and vertical height, though I found it wasn't particularly needed when using Hurdle only as a travel power. Combat jumping is necessary if you want to go jumping around in combat. Sprint and Swift give you a bit more speed. You'll be somewhat vertically challenged, though not nearly as badly as someone with only Super Speed. Combat Jumping and well slotted Hurdle do give you a fairly high jump, but it's no Super Jump.

Sprint is an END hog compared to the other powers. Only use it when actually travelling. In missions, you'll be moving pretty fast. And you won't get Suppressed by combat.

The more I learn about the Electric secondary, the less I like it. The only saving grace is the low level for the AoEs. It doesn't have AoEs that we can cycle nonstop. And I still question the need for an AoE END drain in the first place.

Anyone else have any comments?

Sure, you can put together some /FF, /Sonic, and /Kinetic Controllers together. I'd recommend against Illusion and Mind, as they don't get AoEs till late. You'll probably be safe enough, and you'll put down mobs a lot faster than a solo Controller. I just don't know if you'll cross the SuperTeam threshold.

Any well constructed team can fight even con or better mobs fairly safely and quickly. SuperTeams just run over high level mobs. It's a difference in feel and speed. You'll have defenses, movement, and END Recovery covered, but I'm not sure how well you'll do with damage.

I don't know how much overkill Defender Tank Mages are going to have. I suspect a lot. I think every char in a team of 8 letting off a pair of damage capped AoEe versus Resistance debuffed mobs will melt them real fast.

I wouldn't be surprised if Controllers can do it too, though with less overkill. They just alternate AoE Immobs and single target holds.

OK, here's the timing analysis. This all assumes 2 FF/Sonics, 2 Sonic/Sonics, 2 Kin/Darks, and 2 Kin/Elecs. Remember, the object is to attack nonstop using AoEs. Kinetics Siphon Power is also used as often as possible to hit the damage cap. First a recap on the base numbers.

Dark Blast
Tenebrous Tentacles, Act 1.9, Recharge 10, BI 3.067
Night Fall, Act 2.1, Recharge 10, BI 3.61
Torrent, Act 1.2, Recharge 15, BI 1.313
Electric
Ball Lightning, Act 1.3, Recharge 16, BI 3.54
Short Circuit, Act 3.2, Recharge 20, BI 3.01
Kinetic
Siphon Power, Act 2.0, Recharge 20
Sonic
Howl, Act 2.5, Recharge 10, BI 2.4
Shockwave, Act 2.4, Recharge 8, BI 1.9

Dark

Dark uses single target attacks till Tenebrous Tentacles at 16, and Night Fall at 20. Then they cycle Siphon Power, Tenebrous Tentacles, and Night Fall. Assuming 3 SBs from the other Kinetics in the team, TT and NF don't need any further Recharge Reduction. Unfortunately, Siphon Power has a much longer Recharge, and it can't be made to recharge fast enough even 6 slotted. As such, Dark alternates Siphon Power and Gloom or Torrent in chains. None of these powers need to be slotted for Recharge. The base slot in the Attacks can be for Damage, just to reach the cap a little sooner. Against hard targets (AVs and Monsters), they should use Gloom and Siphon Power as often as possible, and fill in with the lower damage AoEs.

CHAIN: Siphon Power, TT, NF, Gloom, TT, NF

Electric

Electrics get Ball Lightning and Short Circuit at 4 and 10 respectively. They have significantly longer recharges than Dark, so Siphon Power is a welcome addition to the chain. Electrics will only get 3 SBs from other Kinetics. I think Electrics should lead off with Short Circuit 3 slotted for END Drain, to completely drain the END from most mobs. Taking all of this into consideration, it looks like they need an extra single-target attack in their chain. Even Hasten won't reduce the Recharge on SC enough to skip the single-target attack. I don't have timing data for Charged Bolts or Lightning Bolt, but I'll assume they both have a 2.0 second activation time. Along with the 3 END Drain, Short Circuit needs to be 3 slotted with Recharge Reduction. Siphon Power needs 2 Recharge Reduction SOs, while Ball Lightning and the single-target attack don't need any (just slot for Damage). Against hard targets, use Lightning Bolt more often if you have it as it does more damage.

CHAIN: SC, Siphon Power, BL, single-target

Sonic

Sonics get Howl and Shockwave at 4 and 10 respectively. The FFs and Sonics who have /Sonics don't have to worry about fitting Siphon Power in their chains. They just cast Howl and Shockwave nonstop. They should have 4 SBs from the Kinetics. It takes 4 and 1 Recharge Reduction SOs in Howl and Shockwave respectively to chain them nonstop. Against hard targets, cycle Howl, Scream, and Shout for nice damage and lots of stacked Resistance debuffs.

CHAIN: Howl, Shockwave

Double wimpy damage is still wimpy damage. Defenders get 2 or more cones or AoEs that they can cycle fast. And they get a BIG NUKE at 38. Controller AoEs tend to be on the low side for damage, and the power sets that get 2 have a big recharge time on the second.

Controllers don't get nice AoEs till the Epic Power Pools. That means I ignore them. They're great when you get them, but you play most of the game without them.

Take Earth for example.

Stone Cages
BI@2: 0.83
Activation Time: 3 seconds
Recharge Time: 8 seconds
BI/Act: 0.27

Even doubled, the BI/Act is WAY lower than Defender AoEs. Assuming the usual +150% Recharge Reduction from SB, and +198% from 6 slotted Enhancements, it recharges in 1.8 seconds. That's a total BI of 0.83 in just under 5 seconds, doubled to 1.66 in ideal circumstances.

Darks do 3.33 BI total in 4 seconds. That's more than twice as much damage as Earth's ideal damage, and it has the same Immob.

Sonics are at the low end, and only do 1.75 BI in 5 seconds. But they also have the +20% Resistance debuff as a secondary effect of their attack, and they can stack it several times.

Controllers also have smaller buffs than Defenders. Their bubbles won't be quite as strong, the heals won't be quite as big, their Leadership won't be quite as effective, etc.

You want to talk pros and cons. Everything above is a con. I can't see a single pro. Give me a pro.

This team is for PvE, not PvP.

Illusion? We don't need PA to take agro, we're tanks! Illusion has no AoEs except a Torrent cast by the Phantasm once in a while. Illusion is terrible for this team.

Any of us will be able to herd, as we'll all have capped Resistance and Defense (you know what I mean for Defense). But there's no need. The entire team runs up to a group, AoEs, and moves on. Defenders do it from level 4 on. Controllers do it from level 41 on. I'd rather be on the Defender team.

Just visited Merisel Valenzuela for the first time tonight at level 30. I did a DE hunt (passing up a DE door mission). Then she offered me the second mission in the story arc, beginning with "According to the memo you found in Archon Zane's supply base...". When I turned it in, I got the clue which indicated I had supposedly already done the supply base mission. Now she's offering me the third mission in the arc.

It looks like something is broken. I /bugged the mission, saying I'd never been to Archon Zane's supply base. When I went through this in October of last year (according to my notes when it was still the 5th Column), there was a supply base mission. I already PMd that to you. But it looks like that mission may have disappeared.

I did some timing tests for Electric last night, along with Siphon Power. It turned up some bad news.

Ball Lightning
BI@12: 3.54
Activation Time: 1.3 seconds
Recharge Time: 16 seconds
BI/Act: 2.73

Short Circuit
BI@12: 3.01
Activation Time: 3.2 seconds
Recharge Time: 20 seconds
BI/Act: 0.94

Siphon Power
Activation Time: 2.0 seconds
Recharge Time: 20 seconds

These have some pretty long Recharge Times. Ball Lightning is great, given the high damage, fast activation time, and not too long Recharge. In fact, 6 slotted with Recharge, it can recharge while casting Short Circuit. But Short Circuit, the main reason for taking Electric, just takes too long to recharge.

Short Circuit drains a lot of END. I think you want to slot it with 3 END Drains in order to drain all Endurance from mobs in range. Slotted the rest with Recharge Reduction, and taking into account Speed Boost, it still takes 5.72 seconds to recharge. It looks like you'll need to use a Ball Lightning, Siphon Power, pause, and another Ball Lightning between every Short Circuit.

I didn't take into account Siphon Power in the other chains (Dark and Sonic). Hopefully later today I'll figure out how many slots you need to chain 2 AoEs and Siphon Power. Note that after we hit 32 and get Fulcrum Shift we won't be using Siphon Power.

[ QUOTE ]
If you were to invest 5 slots in either swift or sprint, what would you do and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

First a few numbers. Base running speed is 21 feet/second (f/s). Add Sprint and Swift with an SO in their base slot, and you're going 44.8 f/s at level 50. Add 5 more slots to Swift and you're going 56.9 f/s, while putting the slots in Sprint instead gets you 62.1 f/s. Note that these numbers assume you slot all Run Speed Enhancements.

To answer your question, I can't think of any reason I would ever invest 5 slots in Swift or Sprint.

If you want a travel power, take Hurdle. If you seriously plan to use these as your travel power, put them in Sprint. You aren't worried about END while travelling, and they're a little more effective there.

Since you're asking, I assume you want it for combat speed. You didn't mention the AT or powersets, and that's pretty important. Teaming or solo? What other power pools do you have?

Swift is a smaller bonus than Sprint, but that's because Sprint costs END. Swift starts out as about 50% of Sprint, but ends up at 70% at level 50. If you're not worried at all about END, then you get more bang for your buck putting your slots in Sprint. If you are worried about END, then Swift might be better.

But as I said, I wouldn't slot either. For 5 slots, you get an increase of almost 39% to your total running speed. That's a pretty insignificant return for 5 slots.

Let me end by asking you some questions. What type of character is this for? What powers? And why is combat ground speed so important that you'd consider 6 slotting Sprint or Swift?

(Sigh) Right. No exceptions on the Primary powerset. See below.

[ QUOTE ]
SUMMARY

Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: Tank Mages on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 2 Kin/Elec, 2 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport


[/ QUOTE ]

If you would like to play something other than the recommended Secondaries, I'd like to hear why. Someone last night mentioned they wanted to play a (I think) Kin/Psi. I asked why, and got ready to argue numbers, AoEs, and the relative values of secondary effects. He said he's never played a /Psi. I had to admit, I couldn't argue with that. But if you think you can make the team stronger by using a different secondary, let's discuss it.

[ QUOTE ]
Is there a particular primary or secondary that looks under-represented?

[/ QUOTE ]

There's no way to tell till I5 goes live. Right now, the SG is fairly small, and almost exclusively Kinetics. But that's because you can't make up a Sonic/Sonc or FF/Sonic yet. Only time will tell.

Just to be confusing, I started up another thread. This thread here is in the Guides forum, so it should be about the technical aspects of a Tank Mage SuperTeam. The new thread is in the Protector forum, and should be for the administrative aspects of the SG.

The Tank Mage SG

I've asked some questions in there, like who wants to be an Officer in the SG, etc.

[ QUOTE ]
SUMMARY

Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: "Tank Mages" on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 2 Kin/Elec, 2 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport


[/ QUOTE ]

Last I knew, you only needed 4 SOs in AM to make it perma, assuming you also had perma-Hasten (which similarly only needs 5 SOs to be perma if you have perma-AM).

[ QUOTE ]
My main question is how do we slot our nukes? We don't need Damage, Accuracy or Recharge, so what's left? I guess recharge couldn't hurt really...

[/ QUOTE ]

Take a look at the end of page 7 in this thread. If you 5 and 6 slot Tenebrous Tentacles and Night Fall, and have 4 Speed Boosts on you, you should be able to chain those 2 attacks non-stop for maximum AoE damage plus Immob. Take Torrent and you'll be able to chain all 3 with minimal slotting for slightly less damage, but you get Knockback too.

Don't forget Maneuvers for extra Defense at low levels, and Psi defense later.

I wouldn't bother with To Hit Debuffs. Mobs are gonna be at 5% most of the time. I'd use Damage, just so your attacks are capped sooner rather than later.

It'll be faster to select a char and cast 2 shields on them. That way each shield half recharges while you're casting the other one. Assuming it takes 1 second to cast a shield and 2 to recharge, we have...

Old Way: 14 casts + 14 long waits = 14*1 + 14*2 = 42
New way: 14 casts + 14 short waits = 14*1 + 14*1 = 28 seconds

As often as we're going to be doing this, we'll want it to be as fast as possible. Note that with Recharge Reduction from Speed Boost, the Old Way will probably drop to around 23 seconds. The New Way will drop to 14, as one shield will recharge completely while the other is being cast.

It's the little things. :-)

To implement this, leave the numpad1 through 8 as is with deflection shield. But just have numpad0 cast insulation shield.

numpad0 "powexec_name insulation shield"

To bubble everyone hit: 110220330440550660770880
But skip yourself.

SUMMARY

Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: "Tank Mages" on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 2 Kin/Elec, 2 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, I'm in on your crazy scheme too, Top. I'll prolly roll a Sonic/Elec defender, just because they sound cool.

[/ QUOTE ]

Note that the FF and Sonic Defenders will have the weakest defenses at low levels. As a Sonic/Elec, you'd have 2 AoEs, and one of those is a PBAoE. That means you'd have to jump right into the middle of a group. You're only gonna have 1 set of Sonic bubbles on you, which isn't a whole lot of Resistance. Even 6 slotted with SOs I think it's only 44%. You can't cap your resistance till level 26 (I think) when you get Sonic Dispersion Bubble.

Force Field Defenders have somewhat the same problem, but we're gonna be running with lots of stacked Maneuvers. That should put most mobs at the 5% chance to hit, except for AoEs which Maneuvers doesn't defend against.

It's OK if the Kinetics get stunned, slept, or held for a bit. But if the FFs or Sonics drop their Dispersion Bubbles, we may have a big problem.

Kinetics will be the best defended, with nearly capped Resistance from double Sonic bubbles from level 12 on, and plenty of Defense. A single Increase Density can easily cap Smashing and Energy Resistance (I think that's all Clockwork do) till the Sonics get SOs at 22. That's why I've recommended the Kinetics take Electric (for the END Drain) and Dark (for the highest damage and probably most agro). The FFs and Sonics should take the Sonics secondary, which has decent damage and a nice Resistance debuff.

I may be worrying over nothing. At low levels, the massive Defense and heals may be all we really need. And two Increase Density's could cap Smashing and Energy Resistance for a Sonic. But better safe than sorry.

We've got some level 10+ chars in the SG now, so we can SK and get a decent team running. It'll probably only take one or two nights to hit 14 with the first set of Kins.

Several of us have been levelling our Kinetics over the weekend. Some people just can't wait to start. And since the Kinetics won't need to get rerolled when I5 goes live, we're not wasting our time. I've gotten Tanker Wannabe my Kin/Elec up to level 9.

The SG now exists. I've put the team composition into the chat channel MOTD.

I recommend levelling Kinetics up to 14 at most. That way we'll have 4 teammates than can SK the FFs and Sonics and all be around the same level. It gives us Speeds Boost and Tactics, which should really get things moving on the first day. But it looks like we might have enough interest for 2 or more teams, so we can certainly start Kins at level 1.

A Rad/Dark build is good, but not ideal for this team. The 2 each FF and Sonic Defenders are required for tanking, so the only question is the other 4 team slots. A Rad contributes less than a Kinetic. Take a look back in this thread. I posted a comparison between Rads and Kinetics a short ways back.

For Tank Mages, we're looking for Sonics, FF, and Kinetics. But if you really want to play a Rad/Dark, join Buffer Overrun, my all-Rad SG (see sig).

General...

Do missions. They have consistent level appropriate mobs.
Do 1 Tech origin person's missions, so they can buy uncommon DOs and SOs from a contact.
Get 1 contact to Friend, then do missions for another character.
Adjust difficulty as needed. Maybe Tenacious or Rugged after DOs and Unyielding or Invincible after SOs.
Do TFs if people want.
We may have multiple teams. Team with people closest to your level.
Always SK if you can. It will help the team move faster. You'll be getting XP really fast anyway, don't be greedy. :-)

Levelling...

Day 1
Level 1-3: Single-target damage. Kins should have Transfusion and Siphon Power at level 2.
Level 4: AoEs for /Elec and /Sonic start taking down packs fast.
Level 6: Sonics/ and FFs/ have all bubbles, and they need to get fully slotted
Level 8: Kin/Electrics move the team using Siphon Speed and Recall Friend
Level 8: Kin/Dark use Increase Density to help the Kin/Electrics tank
Day 2
Level 10: More AoEs for /Elec and /Sonic
Level 12: Speed Boost time! Dispersion Bubble too! Even DOs!
Level 14: Tactics time!
Day 5
Level 22: SOs!
Day 15
Level 32: Fulcrum Shift, Liquify
Day 20
Level 38: BIG NUKES all the time
Day 30
Level 50: CoV Beta

Combat...

Level 1-3: Run up to Siphon Power range, gather, Siphon Power bosses. Then free for all. Just blast away. Maybe assist other people to help take down mobs faster. Transfusion on a boss near the end to top everyone off.
Level 4-7: Kin/Electrics jump in the middle for Short Circuit. Others get real close for cone attacks, and to stay in range of later Siphon Powers or Transfusions.
Level 8-31: Kin/Electrics Siphon Power first to get agro.
Level 32-27: Use Fulcrum Shift instead of Siphon Power.
Level 38-50: Rotate doing 2 BIG NUKES after Fulcrum Shift in every battle.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're debuffing res enough and syphoning power/fulcrum shifting enough that you can really slot up the secondary effects in your blasts, couldn't enough dark blasts with -acc make FF defenders unnecessary? Or make only 1 FF required?

Maybe this has been said.

[/ QUOTE ]

No can do. You have to hit the mobs with AoE dark attacks in order to apply the debuffs to as many as possible as fast as possible. With the new limits on number of mobs hit per attack, that's just not reasonable or safe. At the first sign of attack, the mobs might unload on one person. Against +4 mobs, undebuffed ones will usually hit and can do serious damage.

Just curious though... What would you replace that FF Defender with? Is there another char that can make the team safer, or let them take down mobs faster?

[ QUOTE ]
WingedKagouti: Scream (single target moderate) is a DoT, Howl is not.

I must admit that it's interesting to see such high damage numbers for Shockwave, I'd have expected it to be about 2/3 what it is due to the Minor rating. Maybe it doesn't scale well later on, though I doubt that is the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doh! Fixed. I'm surprised that Shockwave takes so long to cast! I'd expect it to be like the other Torrent powers at 1.1 seconds or so.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd still prefer having a ranged AoE and a PBAoE simply due to the added amount of targets you can hit with the target limit rules (16 for Ranged AoE vs 10 for PBAoE/Cone). Thus my preference for Electrical Blast on at least half the team. Ball Lightning has a 60% advantage over Howl before Howl starts debuffing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm... that's a good point. And it's a bit hard to factor into things. I wouldn't give it a 60% advantage though, as you'll only get that in the alpha strike. After that, the Minions are down, and you'll be hitting around 6-8 Bosses and Lieutenants just like the Cones. I'd give it a 30% increase in BI when comparing it to other attacks.

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't considering that rule I'd say that mass Sonic Blast is good. The Dark cones are iirc very good for damage, but Sonic + Dark will probably fall behind against either setup (Sonic + Elec & pure Sonic).

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't look like it. First let me dump some data I got last night. Note that this is after the damage reduction reported in the patch notes.

NOTE: For those of you who don't care about the details, skip to the SUMMARY a little ways down.

Sonic Attacks

Howl
Short: Ranged Cone, Medium DMG(Smashing), Foe -Res(All)
BI@10: 1.20 Smashing + 1.20 Energy = 2.40
Resist Debuff: 20% adjusted by level
Duration: 13.7 seconds
Activation Time: 2.5 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 0.96

Shockwave
Short: Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Smashing/Energy), Foe Knockback
BI@10: 0.95 Smashing + 0.95 Energy = 1.9
Activation Time: 2.4 seconds
Recharge Time: 8 seconds
BI/Act: 0.79


Dark Blast

Tenebrous Tentacles
Short: Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Negative/Smash), Foe Immobilize, -ACC
BI@29: 0.443 Negative + 8 * 0.328 Smashing = 3.067
Activation Time: 1.9 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 1.61

Night Fall
Short: Ranged (Cone), Moderate DMG(Negative), Foe -ACC
BI@29: 10 * 0.361 Negative = 3.61
Activation Time: 2.1 seconds
Recharge Time: 10 seconds
BI/Act: 1.72

Torrent
Short: Ranged (Cone), Minor DMG(Smashing), Foe -ACC, Knockback
BI@29: 1.313 Negative
Activation Time: 1.2 seconds
Recharge Time: 15 seconds
BI/Act: 1.09
NOTE: The short description says Smashing, but it does Negative damage.

I'll need to normalize the Brawl Indexes (BIs) to level 1. There's something funny about how they work. I should do that tonight. That will probably show the best mix is about 4 /Dark and 4 /Sonic, but I'm guessing. And I'm only using the first 2 Sonic attacks. You can cycle them non-stop, and adding the third would probably reduce the damage.

The 2 Sonic cones can be cast in 4.9 seconds total. Assuming 3 active Speed Boosts (+150% Recharge Reduction), they can be made to recycle fast enough to chain non-stop with 5 Recharge Reduction SOs in Howl, and 2 greens in Shockwave. With 4 active Speed Boosts, it takes 4 and 1 SOs. Total damage is 4.3 BI, or 0.88 BI/second. (That's pretty bad!) However, the Resistance debuff from Howl can be stacked 3 times (!!!). With 8 Sonics, taking into account Disruption Field, the average debuff during the howls, etc, I get a BI in the first cycle of 12.08, or 2.47 BI/second. The second cycle is 16.84, or 3.44 BI/second, and later ones are only slightly higher.

The 3 Dark cones can be cast in 5.2 seconds total. Assuming 3 active Speed Boosts, these 3 powers can be made to recycle fast enough with 2, 2, and 4 Recharge Reduction SOs in Tenebrous Tentacles, Night Fall, and Torrent respectively. Assuming 4 active Speed Boosts, it only takes 1, 1, and 2 SOs. Total damage is 8.0 BI or 1.54 BI/second. Adjusted for Disruption Field, we get 12.8 BI or 2.46 BI/second.

The non-Kinetics can also just chain Tenebrous Tentacles and Night Fall, the two higher damage attacks. It takes 5 and 6 SOs respectively to chain them even with 4 active Speed Boosts. But they do 6.67 BI in 4 seconds, or 1.67 BI/second. Adjusted for Disruption Field, we get 10.67 BI, or 2.67 BI/second.

Those are the numbers, but the art is in interpreting them. The Sonic numbers are artificially high because they assume everyone is using Sonics. The attacks are low damage, especially Shockwave. Most things aren't going to live long enough to get hit by 2 full Sonic cycles. After the first cycle, the only thing left will be a few bosses. In that case the Sonics can alternate Howl and single target attacks to cap the Resistance debuff faster.

Now lets try some other numbers. If we mix Sonics and Darks (the better Darks), the higher damage Dark attacks get a boost, while the low damage Sonic attacks don't get quite as big a boost. This is just for the alpha strike, which will probably take out everything but bosses and some Lts. Note than the Sonics only look better than the Darks here because they're taking more time. The key thing to note is that adding Sonics gives you diminishing returns. Sure that extra +20% Resistance debuff increases the damage of the entire team, but it also replaces a high damage dealer with a low damage dealer.

8 Dark, 0 Sonic: Resistance 60%/60%: 8*10.68 = 85.44
7 Dark, 1 Sonic: Resistance 70%/80%: 7*11.71 + 1*7.74 = 89.71
6 Dark, 2 Sonic: Resistance 80%/100%: 6*12.74 + 2*8.36 = 93.16
5 Dark, 3 Sonic: Resistance 90%/120%: 5*13.77 + 3*8.98 = 95.79
4 Dark, 4 Sonic: Resistance 100%/140%: 4*14.80 + 4*9.60 = 97.6
3 Dark, 5 Sonic: Resistance 110%/160%: 3*15.82 + 5*10.22 = 98.56
2 Dark, 6 Sonic: Resistance 120%/180%: 2*16.86 + 6*10.84 = 98.76
1 Dark, 7 Sonic: Resistance 130%/200%: 1*17.88 + 7*11.46 = 98.1
0 Dark, 8 Sonic: Resistance: 140%/220%: 8*12.08 = 96.64

SUMMARY:

A little variety is good. Having 1 to 4 /Darks and the rest /Sonics (rather than all /Sonics) results in nice high damage, an Immob, and a new damage type. I think the single target Dark attacks are stronger that the Sonic ones, though I'll have to verify that. I expect 4 /Sonics can cap the Resistance debuff on AVs easily enough, and bosses as well if they live long enough.

As for /Electric, I can't really say. The AoE attacks appear to be between /Dark and /Sonic in BI. The higher max number of targets for Ball Lightning is a plus. The longer recharge on it and Short Circuit are a minus, though probably not a big once since things should die in the alpha strike. I'm not sure whether Voltaic Sentinel gets the buffs on you or not. But at least with Speed Boost you'll be able to cast it often. It might be a good idea to slot Short Circuit for End Drain rather than Recharge Reduction. Transference and Short Circuit combined can drain bosses and keep them drained, possibly even AVs.

I think replacing 2 Darks with Electrics might be a good idea. They can stack Short Circuit. They don't need to line up cones to attack, so they can sit in the middle of mobs. They can be the anchor for the Sonics/ Disruption Field.

Given that the /Electrics will always be sitting in the middle of mobs, they should be the best defended char. In order to avoid having too many different combinations of powersets, I'm going to recommend the following...

2 Kinetic/Electric
2 Kinetic/Dark
2 FF/Sonic
2 Sonic/Sonic

Everyone takes the first 3 Leadership powers. The first two Medicine powers (Aid Other and Stimulant) are recommended. Grant Invisibility from Concealment is recommended.

The Kin/Electrics are the tanking Tank Mages. They get Siphon Speed at 6, while the Kin/Darks get Increase Density at 8.

All Kinetics might want Siphon Speed and Recall Friend to help move the team around at low levels.

Take AoEs when you can get them.

It looks like people can start making their Kins on Live. Or you can wait another day, and the recommendations will all change again! But at least it'll give you something to do while waiting for Update 5.

[ QUOTE ]
TopDoc, I started a FF/Dark last night on Protector for this team and i'll try to get him to 10 ASAP in order to reserve the name for the SG. Did you want it called "Tank Mages" or "Tank Magi" or somthing else?

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd say "Tank Mages".

[ QUOTE ]
I'll re-roll as a FF/Sonic when I5 is released so that I can boost the -res component along with the others. My build will be completely team dependant and I don't intend to play him outside of the SG, I have many other heroes that I can do that with.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's how most people will probably be. Without Hasten, Stamina, and movement powers, these characters won't do well outside of the SG.

[ QUOTE ]
Just to mention possible benefits for having a few */Dark on the team. We will not have any holds or significant status effects if we all go sonics (unless there is a status in there that i'm not aware of, I didn't check) With a few TT and dark pits we can disable significant groups of mobs. and I recently read that the FF repulsion bomb, now does disorient as well (can stack with dark pit). I'm thinking about some of those annoying mobs that are much easier dealt with status effects (I know we most likely will avoid some of them IE: Tsoo sorcerers). Also TT will help keep things together for the sonic cone attacks. As a side benefit the tohit debuff from /dark blast will help mitigate some of the damage to the FF defender seeing as they won't have capped defense like the rest of the team.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I'd really like Dark for those same reasons. The problem is identifying the different capabilities in the power sets and evaluating them as they would be used by the SuperTeam. Sure Dark has a Disorient and an Immob. Do we want or need them? I don't really know. Think outside the box. We've already discarded 6 slotted attacks, Stamina, Hasten, and individual movement powers. Maybe we can discard locking down mobs as well.

Disoriented mobs just wander around and do not use powers. Do we really care if mobs use powers. How often do Tanks ask Controllers to lock down mobs before they move in to attack? Pretty much never. Attacks don't really worry tanks much, and we're gonna be tanks. What would worry us? I don't really know. I can't think of anything.

Dark Pit is a Magnitude 1 Disorient, which means is only affects Minions unless stacked. It has a duration of 10 seconds, or about 7 seconds versus +3 mobs, and recharges in 60 seconds. We won't care about Minions, but Lieutenants and Bosses might be worth disorienting. This might be a good attack if several Darks use it after the minions go down. That means we would need probably 4+ Darks to reliably lock down almost everything.

Immobilized mobs don't move, but they do attack. Mobs normally start out nice and clustered, and keeping them that way will help us catch lots of them with our AoEs. This is a big plus. But what if everything except bosses goes down in our alpha strike, before the mobs have had a chance to move far? Defeat removes the need for Immobilize. Against remaining bosses we'll likely use single target attacks. Immobilized mobs don't run away. Do we care if mobs run away? A little. We need to worry about staying inside stacked Dispersion bubbles.

If you can see any better uses for Disorient and Immob attacks, let me know. In a Tank Mage team, they appear to give some benefit, but they are not on the "must have" list. Otherwise the main things to compare are damage and other secondary effects. I think Sonic has better damage (see my previous post). Sonic Attacks have the Resistance debuff, but that's been taking into account looking at damage. Dark has an Accuracy debuff. Is this useful, perhaps for the FFs without double bubbles? I don't think so, now that hopefully everyone will be taking Maneuvers. One set of bubbles, two Dispersion bubbles, and 8 Maneuvers 6 slotted and run by Defenders should floor everything except maybe AVs using AoE attacks. I can't see taking Dark just for that.

[ QUOTE ]
As a note on your kinetic build posted above,

I see no need to slot inertial reduction at all and the same for increase density. If we have 4 kins on the team (even 2 can cap the jumping movement i believe) casting the same buffs they don't need to be slotted. the sonics alone will cap our resists to smashing/energy right? so increase density becomes our mez protection.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Inertial Reduction has a 1 minute duration, while most of the other buffs have a 2 minute duration. It's likely that this will be cast in the middle of combat, or under other conditions that are less than ideal. As such, it won't always be stacked 4 times. I haven't tested it, so I don't know what it takes to cap it. I just put slots in there because I couldn't find a better place for them.
Increase Density as I had it doesn't need slots. But I think it could be nice at low levels before the Sonics can 6 slot their bubbles with SOs. We'll be able to cap Smashing and Lethal from level 8 on. We'll probably want to wait till 12 for Speed Boost though, otherwise we'll be moving REAL slow. Although a single Kinetic with Siphon Speed and some stacked Increase Density could be our Tanker's Tanker at levels 6-12.

In fact, that sounds like an excellent strategy. One Kinetic takes Siphon Speed at 6 and Recall Friend at 8. They can move the team around quickly. But they can also be the kamikaze that takes the mobs alpha strike, after being buffed by some Increase Density's from the other Kins. But as you pointed out, Increase Density probably doesn't need to be slotted.

[ QUOTE ]
EDIT: Same thing with the 6 slotted hovers. Speed boost affects hover speed, you bet it'll be capped with just a few applications.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not so sure. I know how to test movement (check my sig). But I haven't ever tested Speed Boost. But I suspect you're right. Hover with 4 Speed Boosts may well cap Fly speed. That said, Hover 6 slotted can be used as a safe emergency travel power, when you don't have Speed Boost. If you are defeated and the team has no Awakens, hit the Hospital and Hover back to the team. If you need to level and buy a full set of Enhancements, the rest of the team can go on without you. When you're done, Hover back to them. Hurdle would be a lot faster than Hover in those situations, and the non-Kins could easily spare another power pick for Super Jumping.

Let me turn it around and ask you what you would do with those slots? Can you find a better place for them? Maybe to slots AoE attacks for recharge so you can chain them faster?

[ QUOTE ]
AtomicPhoenix: One thing to keep in mind that doesn't apply to the all-rad concept is time to buff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, I'm aware this is gonna be a pain. And with the huge number of buffs, it'll be hard for the FFs and Sonics to know when their bubbles have run out. We probably will need to "Gather for bubbles" and "Gather for SB" constantly.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that Psi isn't a good choice. But I can't understand why you think /Sonic lacks AoEs.

[/ QUOTE ]
Minor damage isn't good enough for a damage AoE IMO. Sonic Blast only has 1 AoE (beyond Wail) that deals more than Minor damage. Also only Howl is listed as having -Res as a secondary effect out of the 3 non-nuke AoEs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good points. I'm glad someone is keeping me honest here.

But consider the Resistance debuff. I think it more than makes up for having more minor damage attacks.

Let's compare it to Dark, which appears to have the best AoEs. I think Dark has 2 Moderates and a Minor cone, though the description doesn't say. You should be able to chain the 3 cones nonstop, or come close. With 2 Disruption Fields, each person will do (Moderate*2 + Minor) * 1.6. I don't have the numbers for all of the Dark attacks, but let's assume a Moderate attack does 2 bits and a Minor attack does 1 bit. A complete Dark chain will do 8 bits worth of damage.

With everyone using Sonic Attacks, you can again chain the 3 cones or come close. Only 1 appears to have the -Res debuff, but you can likely stack it twice. Assuming the stacking isn't perfect, and taking the average debuff as the Howls hit, the first cycle will be around Moderate * 2.2 + Minor * 2 * 2.8, and the second and later cycles will be Moderate * 3.4 + Minor * 2 * 4.0. The first chain will do 10 bits worth of damage, while the second and later ones will do 14.8 bits.

Granted Dark and Sonics attacks do close to the same number of bits of damage on the first chain. In fact these calculations are bad enough that the I'd consider them equal. (I'd need Brawl Indexes and good Activation and Recharge times to get good numbers.) However, the second cycle of Sonic attacks appears to be a fair amount better than the dark atacks.

(I do have a level 29 Emp/Dark Defender, so I can get all the Dark numbers I need given a little testing. But I can't do the same with /Sonics. :-( Anyone have a level 28+ /Sonic on test with all of the AoEs and a half hour to spare?)

Also take into account the single target attacks used to finish off bosses. The Sonic ones all have Resistance debuffs, and will stack on top of any current AoE debuffs to reach +300% very quickly. Dark will stay at +60%. The base damage of the attacks is comparable, so the Sonics will quickly be doing 2.5 times as much damage.

[ QUOTE ]
In the other post you criticize me for slotting the attacks and then later on in your post suggest 6 slotting them. You also question me picking stuff like Maneuvers (which does protect against the one major hole in this setup: Psionics) but later go on to notice that you can actually pick and slot just about anything you want to. As long as you pick & slot the basic required stuff for your powersets of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your attack power slots were empty, so I didn't know what you were using them for. I only advocated slotting attacks for recharge in order to chain AoEs. What did you intend to slot in your attacks, and why?

As for Maneuvers, you never said it was mainly for Psi defense. If we avoid Psi mobs as I've been saying, Maneuvers only gives Defense, which is already handled (better) by the Force Fields.

But I think you have a point with Maneuvers. I don't know how much defense it provides on test, but fully slotted and stacked 8 times by Defenders it had better be significant. It should take a big bite out of Psi damage. It will also provide enough Defense that the FFs won't need to take Power Mastery for Power Buildup in order to cast extra strong bubbles on each other. Everyone can take Psychic Mastery for Mind Over Body and Psi Resistance at level 44.

All this means that Psychic mobs can probably be dealt with if everyone takes Maneuvers. Since there are Psi mobs in the game that we will have to deal with from time to time (cape mission, last Respec, TFs, etc.), I think I'm going to officially reverse my opinion on both Maneuvers and Psi mobs. I recommend everyone take Maneuvers, and we shouldn't specifically avoid Psi mobs like the plague.

I rejected some of your choices because I didn't see a need for them, and you didn't explain them. When I rejected them, I explained why. You came back with a counter for some, and I expect we'll bounce back and forth some more over some of the items. But at least we're both learning the reasons for the choices.

[ QUOTE ]
Aim/Amplify were taken mainly to advance in level so I could get to the higher level powers, the same can be said for almost anything that isn't in the required stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]

There wasn't anything else worth taking when you hit that level, so you took Aim. OK. I chose different powers that I felt could be used, even if rarely.

[ QUOTE ]
For the FF'ers the required stuff is the 3 bubbles, for the Sonics it's the 3 shields + Disruption Field. Kins are there to use Transfusion, Siphon Power (Fulcrum Shift is a waste if you bring 4 Kins with SP in a party with 8 Defs all running Assault) and Speed Boost. Rads would be Radiant Aura, Accelerate Metabolism & Enervating Field.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd add either Repulsion Field or Force Bubble for FFs. The team will have very few if any melee attacks, so there's no reason to let mobs close to melee range. Granted Kinetics get Repel and Sonics get something similar, I think FFs have the most powers to skip in their primary. I've never played an FF to any significant level. Can anyone tell me how these work?

I wouldn't say Fulcrum Shift is a waste. Remember it is also an AoE Damage debuff. That's a pretty minor concern given the team's defenses, but not against Psi mobs. For them, it can be our second line of damage mitigation. It has twice the duration and Damage buff of Siphon Power, and that's ignoring the extra damage buff you can get near the mobs. You cast it once at the start of combat, when everyone is gathered around, and they will be capped for 30 seconds. With Siphon Power, you have to recast it in the middle of combat to hit the cap, and you may not buff everyone in the team if they've moved around to attack. Siphon Power is a waste once you have Fulcrum Shift.

Kins can use Siphon Speed (Heresy! A personal buff!) between level 6 and 12 as a travel power. A Kin with this and Recall Friend could move the team around far faster than Sprint. Of course you only need 1 per team, and they can respec out of it after level 12 and Speed Boost.

Increase Density can help against Smashing and Energy damage before the Sonic bubbles are fully slotted with SOs. It'll be great against Clockwork. It's status protection between 8 and 12, when FFs get Dispersion Bubble. But it may be needed up till 26 when Sonics get their Sonic Dispersion Bubble, against particularly mez heavy mobs. Stimulant also provides status protection, but Increase Density appears to be a better choice due to its extra resistance. It slows you down, so maybe you only stack it on a single Kin with Siphon Speed who always takes the mob alpha strike. Any volunteers? Increase Density doesn't give Sleep resistance, so Stimulant will be needed for that.

Inertial Reduction gives you Z axis movement, which can be important when maneuvering in certain mission maps or zones. Sure the Kins can Teleport and Recall Friend the entire team, but that's less efficient for short distances.

Transference is a must-have for casting after BIG NUKES. Normally I have to take a CAB or 2, and watch my Endurance till the 0 Recovery buff wears off. Transference lets the nuker immediately turn on toggles and attack full speed, as it can completely fill the Endurance bar. Our BIG NUKES can be 6 slotted for Recharge to use them as often as possible (once per person every 2 minutes, probably 2 per combat). The only problem I can see is that there may not be any mobs left to target. It's also good for instantly draining dangerous bosses (Rikti Chief Mentalists), and even AVs in around 15 seconds (cast twice by 4 Kins). But again, I expect this team will be defeating all but the high end AVs in around 15 seconds.

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone should of course have at least 1 AoE (preferably 2), 2 or 3 single target attacks, Assault & Tactics. SR/Clarity would be nice but only really needed vs Sleep due to massive resists from 4 different stacked fields (2x FF & 2x SR) covering Hold & Disorient.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good for the attacks. I'd say take every AoE possible. We're always gonna be in big teams, so the AoEs will never be wasted.

But Clarity, Stimulant, and Increase Density may be needed more often than you think. We're gonna be moving fast. It'll be easy to wander out of the bubbles, and we can be hit. We won't have all 4 bubbles till 26.

[ QUOTE ]
Anything beyond those powers is pure fluff and only really taken to level up. The Psi APP is nice fluff (like Maneuvers it covers a hole) but still fluff. With 2 (or more) Kins movement powers become fluff though they can still be nice to have.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't go quite that far. Grant Invisibility will be a staple power, as it will let us get into position for short range cones without attracting agro. Heal Other will be good if someone is hit by a boss or two at the end of combat. A lot of the Kins powers can be used in various situations. But the FFs and Sonics have some useless powers, and may well have fluff. They can get Group Fly for Hami raids. :-)

For future builds posted to this thread, it might be a good idea to specifically point out fluff powers. I don't consider any of my sample Kin powers to be fluff. But the FF has Hover, Aid Self, Temp Invulnerability, and Conserve Power that are likely useless.

Thanks for the replies so far. I look forward to your next one.