TopDoc

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Don't Swap Out.. add on.. b/c you'll always need the basic as well as the advanced when working on the expert.

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Given 693k Prestige, I could buy 3 Databases, 2 Workrooms, and all 3 tables, and let them sit around mostly unused. But no one has given me that much Prestige, and I wouldn't want to dedicate that much Prestige to mostly idle gear.

Instead I spend 125k for a workroom and basic bench, and temporarily sell the Infirmary when I need the better benches. Despite having about 7 of us around level 30, we've found almost no salvage requiring the Advanced or Expert tables to turn into refined materials.

Now perhaps I'm missing something. I've assumed that items are built entirely on one table, but your comment begs the question... Are there items which you can only build if you have more than one work bench in a workroom?

I went home for lunch and found that we had just barely enough for a basic table as well. Made one, refined my raw salvage, even made a mission computer and basic telepad. Of course I can't place either unless I sell the entire workroom. :-( Tonight I should be able to upgrade it to an Advanced table, or possibly even have both. But that Expert Table is gonna take a lot, since is sucks up so much Control.

I had mid-teens in a couple of salvage items. Buffer Overdose VG has around 50 people, with around 10 toons in the 20s and probably about 20 or more in the teens. I'd call us a mid-sized VG. While I hadn't hit the limit, I definitely would if the VG was significantly smaller.

I have a new villain on Justice named "Tech Mule". :-)

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Only a large supergroup would have the prestige for a functional workshop, even with one table. Most supergroups are much smaller, so will hit the salvage limit a long time before they can process anything. If that wasn't as intended, you might want to look over the mathematic reasonings posted in other threads about base costs, and the time it takes to make them. We won't start seeing workshops regularly for awhile yet.

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EXACTLY! She hit the nail on the head.

And here's the math... It takes 750k Prestige for a bare minimum base and the smallest worktable.

Small SG (6 people): Starts with 120k Prestige. They have to earn 630k Prestige. That means defeating about 63k minions (10.5k each) if they're high level, a lot fewer Lts, or a whole lot fewer bosses. Starting at level 1 like all villains currently, it'll be a lot more than that due to the partial Prestige awarded at lower levels. What are the chances that they're gonna max at least one salvage item? I'd say REALLY REALLY high. If they actively avoid certain factions, or actively hunt others, then it's pretty much guaranteed.

Larger SG (45 people): Starts with 300k Prestige (capped). They have to earn 450k. That means defeating about 45k Minions, or 1k each. I'd say it's REALLY unlikely that they will hit the max unless they hunt a very small number of factions.

My VG is in pretty good shape. We've got the 3 rooms, power, and control. Tonight we should have a functioning work table. But we're pretty organized and medium sized.

This salvage cap may start a whole black market for refined salvage. For example, people may offer to refine salvage for a "small fee".

P.S. I'm @TopDoc, VG is on Justice, and 20% sounds good.

I played around recently with Prestige. Here were my findings...

Level 50 char fighting even con Min/Lt/Boss CoT in Portal Courtyard...
XP: 1852/4075/8151 (estimated)
Inf: 1297/4891/16303
Prestige: 10/35/125

You receive 70% of a Minion's XP in Influence, 120% of an Lt's, and 200% of a Boss'. (This is a constant throughout the game.) In this example, an Lt is worth 220% XP of a minion, and a boss is worth 440% XP. (This can vary depending on the capabilities of the mob.) It looks like Prestige follows the exact same proportions as Inf. Note however that Prestige is capped. My level 38 char earned 10/34/? Prestige fighting -1 Rikti. I'd guess that there's a curve from 1-35, then it's flat from 36 and on. Maybe I'll try some of my other chars later and find out what the curve is.

You need to defeat about 28,000 even con Minions to get from level 1 to 36, and 41,300 more to get to 50. I'm not sure about the scaling factor at low levels, but I'll give half credit for the minions below level 36. That means you get Prestige credit for roughly 55,300 even con Minions going from level 1 to 50. Note that if you fight higher or lower level mobs, it doesn't matter. You get more or less XP per mob, but the Influence and Prestige are proportional. Fighting only Minions at 10 per, you would earn about 553,000 Prestige.

There is a big difference fighting Minions, Lts, and Bosses. Fighting only Lts, you could level from 1-50 and get Prestige credit for about 25,000 Lts, which is about 875,000 Prestige. With bosses, it's 12,500 of them for 1,562,500 Prestige. Solo, you fight more Minions than anything else, and bosses are rare. But I believe the following number is a good generalization...

You earn about 750,000 Prestige going from level 1 to 50 in SG mode all the time. An entire SG worth of characters (75) going from 1 to 50 would earn 56 million Prestige. That 56 Million will be eaten away a bit by taxes, but not much. Assuming the SG levels from 1 to 75 over the course of 3 months, you'll still have over 50 million. Going from level 1 to 50 in 3 months assuming an average of 300 hours total for experienced people means an average of 3.3 hours/day and 2.5k Prestige/hour.

At the end of 3 months, what sort of base will you have? Remember, this is a max size SG with dedicated players who have gone from level 1 to 50. They can have a fairly large hidden base with lots of bells and whistles, or they can have a very small Secure base. This doesn't take into account craftable objects, and I hear they are expensive.

Realistically, this isn't gonna happen often. There may be a few SGs with enough active people to shuffle around into a single SG that they could earn Prestige like this. But for a majority of SGs, they're going to be stuck with a really small hidden base. I expect the only SGs that build a Secure base will be those that PL and farm massively for Prestige.

All that said, it doesn't take much for a small hidden raidable base, even with 5 IoPs and some extra stuff. Note that I don't know what else is required for a raidable base (Mission Computer? Raid Teleporter?).

Mil Room/Item
3.3 Hidden Spot (12x12) with space for 16 rooms at 2x2
0.0 Entry room (2x2)
0.4 Energy Terminal 1 (2x2) with Basic Generator (makes 1000 E)
0.6 Control 1 (2x2) with Mainframe & 3 Databases (makes 200 C, uses 350 E)
1.3 5 Vaults for IoPs (2x2), 6 Anchors scattered around
0.3 Workshop (2x2) with 3 tables (uses 135 C, 270 E)
0.2 Infirmary (2x2) with Basic Reclaimator & Rez Chamber (uses 50 C, 100 E)
0.2 Transport (2x2) with Teleport (uses 15 C, 80 E)
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6.3 million Prestige total

The huge dedicated SG above could make this base in about 10 days. It would take a SG of 20 people closer to 40 days, and a SG of 6 people 4 months. Cut down to 3 Vaults and you can stay with a Tiny Hidden Spot at only 2.8 million total for the base.

Can anyone post exact details about the items you need for a raidable base? I'm talking Prestige cost for mission computers or whatever.

Does anyone know of faster ways to earn Prestige? Exemping doesn't appear to make a difference. I haven't tried PvP zones to see if they make a difference. The mission completion bonus is 100% of XP in Inf, and the Prestige is scaled and capped as usual.

The largest Hidden base, a "Massive Hidden Complex" is about 26.5 million, according to an excel spreadsheet I got off another thread. That's just for the plot of land. There are too many unknowns concerning functional objects and crafted objects to determine what size functional rooms you'll need, and what you'll need to stock them with. But it's fairly safe to say that you can have a Massive Hidden Complex with all the bells and whistles for under 100 mil. The non-Secure rooms are fairly cheap, and the non-crafted items are fairly cheap as well.

The biggest Secure base, a "Massive Secure Complex" is 137.8 mil. Add in multiple big Control and Energy rooms, functional items, etc., and you're talking 250+ mil. Good luck doing that. Maybe if every player on a server worked for the SG you could do it, rotating people in and out of the SG based on timezones. But that isn't gonna happen.

Secure bases cost a WHOLE lot more than hidden ones. I can't justify the unrealistic expense in my VG. I don't know what is involved in a trial to acquire an IoP, but I expect it will be less than the time you have to spend to earn rent money on a secure base. As such, your time may be better spent just doing another IoP trial if you lose one, and sticking with a hidden base.

You might also consider creating or joining a mutual defense alliance. You promise not to raid your allies (by coordinating raid schedules), and to assist your allies if they are raided. If you get enough of the high-end SGs and VGs in the alliance, you can spank anyone on your server who gets out of line. Just put together a max sized group of HO loaded level 50 toons with min-maxed builds, and completely trash the base of anyone who raids you. Repeatedly if needed.

Sometimes, the social solutions are the easiest.

P.S. My VG is on Justice, and I expect we'll have a raidable base within a couple weeks. PM me if you wanna talk.

Teleport is still the fastest. Super Speed caps with 2 SOs at about 135 f/s. Teleport goes 140 f/s with 2 SOs as well, assuming 3 seconds per port. But you can slot Teleport more and still get a benefit, though it probably won't be worth it to use more than 4 slots of Range Increase on it. Granted not many people put more than 4 slots into Range for Teleport, as most people have 1 if not 2 END Reduction Enhancements in it if they're going to 6 slot it.

Super Speed will be unaffected by ED. Ditto on Super Jumping, though that one is close. ED will make Fly even slower. It currently takes 4 SOs to cap Fly at 86 f/s. You need a +127% bonus to Fly to cap it, and those 4 SOs give you +133%. I'm in the CoV Beta, but I haven't tested the ED numbers there, so I'm not sure how easy it is to reach +127%. I expect most people will settle for 3 SOs in fly for a speed of 76.64 f/s (I think someone said 3 SOs gives you +94%).

That link doesn't work for me.

Not a stupid question at all. I'm fairly certain that you would not need 3 SOs in SJ if you have Hurdle with an SO. In fact you may only need 1 SO in SJ to cap it with Hurdle. However, the jumping speed formula is still beyond me, so I'd have to actually test that combination. Unfortunately, I'm probably not going to get to this for a while. Fortunately, you can test this yourself. Find a nice big stretch of open water and time how long it takes to go a set distance with 0, 1, 2, or 3 SOs in SJ, while keeping 1 SO in Hurdle. And if you do test it, please post your results here.

Note that this only applies to ground speed. You will probably not cap your jump height without several SOs in SJ. Unfortunately, I never bothered to test jump height.

I've never tested Siphon Speed with flying. According to the CoH Planner, it only accepts run speed enhancements. But the description just says is increases Speed, and not specifically Running Speed. All run speed bonuses increase jumping speed, but the same is not the case for Flying. Siphon Speed may not affect flying at all. That's the first thing to test. If it does affect flying, perhaps the Run Speed Enhancements improve the Fly Speed bonus, or perhaps they only affect Run Speed. That's the second thing to test.

If Siphon Speed gives the same bonus to Flying that it does to Running, then you can use Hover as a travel power! Somehow, I doubt it though.

I'd have to do some testing to figure out how this works. Fortunately, I have a level 33 Kin with a couple respecs available. Unfortunately, testing something like this is pretty low priority.

At level 14+, I prefer travel powers that don't need a target. Eventually I slot my main travel power to cap it, but I don't really worry about how fast I go till fairly late in level. Siphon Speed becomes more a Recharge Reduction buff and debuff. I'd say slot Hover as much as you'd like (some people like to 6 slot it). Slot Siphon Speed for Recharge Reduction, and consider it a bonus.

Peacebringers:
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Quality of Life and other Suggestions <ul type="square">[*]Photon Seekers should be renamed to Photon Walkabout to more accurately reflect their AI.[/list]

I used this simple but VERY handy macro:

/macro Jump "+up$$+autorun"

This is the Run equivalent for Super Jumpers, and I highly recommend it. It's the equivalent of hitting the r key (autorun) and holding the space bar (to jump), but it's hands free.

I did my testing in long stretches of open water, so there were no ground height changes. I used the macro, so I always went as high as possible.

I believe the more time you spend on the ground, the slower you go. For the fraction of a second that you're on the ground, you probably slow down to normal running speed. But I don't recall specifically testing for this. Maybe when I'm done with some of my other projects I'll update this Guide and do a little more testing.

Bad news on the HP values. I was looking at them to try to determine exact pet damage. No good. The values reported for yourself (and maybe other players) are exact. The values reported for mobs appear to be rounded to 5 HP. Basically, the same values you see if you click on the mob and hold your cursor over the HP bar in the target window. :-( Not good enough to determine exact brawl numbers, or hardly even get close. Maybe if I figure out how it rounds, and use Enhancements to get right around that value. Hmm.

OK, I got Snarespawn to help me test Speed Boost and Inertial Reduction. He was level 22 I think. I don't know if those powers increase as you level. Once I5 goes live I'll have a decent level Kin of my own to test with.

Speed Boost +30.77 f/s +20.97 mph
Inertial Reduction +46.35 f/s +31.60 mph +75.53 feet high

It looks like Speed Boost is about 53% of base Super Speed at level 14, or 42% of base Super Speed at level 50. Fully slotted, a single Speed Boost would be very close to capped Super Jumping, at least in ground speed. However, Speed Boost boosts END Recovery, and it is usually slotted for that. With no Run Speed slots, it's a little faster than unslotted Fly at level 50. Not something to use as a travel power. But you can't use it on yourself anyway, Kins have Siphon Speed for that.

On the other hand, Inertial Reduction is better f/s than Super Jump when you first get it, though not quite as high. You should be able to cap jumping speed with 3 slightly green SOs at level 50, just like Super Jump. But given that I've had lots of problems measuring and predicting Jumping, I won't make any guarantees. I'll test it again when I get a decent level Kin of my own, and can play around with it on the Test server.

With Siphon Speed and Inertial Reduction, Kins can get the equivalent of capped Super Speed and Super Jumping. And the capped Super Jumping they can give to anyone for a minute at a time. Not bad!

I didn't test Suppression on either of these as Snarespawn and I were both in a hurry. But I doubt that these are Suppressed.

I've been meaning to test PA and Phantasms for a long time, but haven't ever bothered. My Ill/Rad is 50. But I do have the tools, and it isn't hard. I could get accurate animation and recharge times, BI, range, etc. But there's so many other things to test. Hmm...

Most of your assumptions look correct. I'm not sure about the Purple Patch numbers, having never tested them. But your Accuracy calculation just isn't logical. Why should your Accuracy Enhancements modify your opponent's Defense? Specifically, I would expect you to be able to counter my massive Defense with your massive Accuracy Enhancements. But if your base ToHit is 75%, and I have 75% Defense, it doesn't matter how much Accuracy you have. The right half of the calculation is 0.

The same applies to ToHit buffs and debuffs. If I put a ToHit debuff on you for 75%, it doesn't matter how much Accuracy you have.

Despite that, I think you may be right. With 6 slotted Radiation Infection, people rarely hit me in the arena. And I've heard that SR Scrappers are notoriously hard to hit in PvP. I would expect people with lots of Dam/Acc HOs to be able to hit me or an SR scrapper, but it may not matter.

Now this is something I really DO want to test. It's a pretty major change in the way I expected things to work.

Doctor's Ally is definitely 35-39. It's given by Gordon Stacy, the Natural level 35-39 contact. I think it's his first mission.

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I did petition then and I have petitioned multiple times since. I have never heard a response.

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I'd check your email settings. You should get an email automatically every time you submit a petition saying that it was received, probably within minutes. You should also get monthly Newsletter emails; I think the last one was about 2 weeks ago. If you aren't getting these, then the problem is email. You may have the wrong email address in your NCSoft account. And you may be automatically discarding the emails depending on your ISP or email filters.

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No offense TopDoc people that spread ideas like this are evedently gonna kill tankers and scrappers. Obviously you don't care but when the tankers and scrappers dont have a home in the game some other people might

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Don't shoot the messenger. The world is round. It has always been round. You can ignore that fact, and you'll probably do just fine. Most people probably don't care, one way or another. Their lives will go on just fine, whether the world is round, flat, or something else entirely. But if I want to sail around the world, I can't do it alone. I'm posting here to find a crew of like-minded people who are willing to accept that the world might be round, and who want to sail with me and find out. I'm not posting here to convert everyone to the One True Way of playing, and I doubt I could if I tried. There will always be people who refuse to believe that the world is round, and those who just don't like sailing. You can play with them. :-)

If you take a look at Buffer Overrun, my All-Rad SG (link in my sig), you'll see that Update 5 doesn't change anything with regard to Tankers and Scrappers. A well designed SuperTeam can do better than a balanced team containing a wide mix of ATs. This has been true since the beginning of the game, it's just taken me a while to see it.

Even if this does catch on, it'll only be a fad. It took me 6 weeks to go from level 1 to 50 in Buffer Overrun. This SuperTeam looks to be even faster. In a month or so, people playing in this SuperTeam will hit 50 and move on. They'll go right back to playing Tankers, Scrappers, or whatever else they want. I'll go back to playing my current main, a Scrapper. Life will go on.

Go heavy on the AoEs (Ball Lightning and Short Circuit) and team powers (Speed Boost!, Leadership, Increase Density, Grant Invis), very light on everything else. You shouldn't need more than your initial single-target attack, but time will tell.

Correct in every way.

Buffer Overrun is all-Rad. Team composition doesn't matter. Despite that, we often have problems putting teams together because of level differences. Imagine adding requirements for specific powersets on top of that. We need FFs for Defense and Status protection. I learned the hard way in Buffer Overrun that power pool defenses doesn't protect against AoE attacks, so there's really no substitute for FFs. We need Sonics for Resistance and status protection. Other powersets offer protection from different things, but Sonics covers almost everything. We need Kinetics for movement, Damage, END, and Recharge Reduction. Those are the bare minimum powersets needed, and I'd like to stick to the bare minimum.

And yes, Kinetics are for Speed Boost as much as Damage. The combination of major Run Speed, END Recovery, and Recharge Reduction bonuses means fast and furious combat, chaining AoEs while running at Super Speed.

Yes, No, and not necessarily.

If you take all 3 and 6 slot them, they will be about the same as unslotted Super Speed at level 50. So yes, you can do it. But no, it is not a minimal investment.

You don't need to suck it up and get SS. Have I ever mentioned Hurdle? Well slotted, it comes close to base Super Speed at 50. That's also slightly faster than capped Flying! Most people who read these boards take Stamina, and Hurdle is just as good as Swift as a pre-req for Stamina. Jumping in CoH doesn't follow the laws of physics, so it may not stack well with Sprint or Swift. You may want to actually avoid them. In a build strapped for power picks, this is the way to go.

That said, Super Speed with 2 SOs is the fastest conventional movement power, and is a very small investment for what you get. Since most people also take Hasten, Super Speed is 1 power pick and 1 extra slot.

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Alamo_Kid: What server is this on? I'd be down to build a toon for this group. Probably a sonic/*

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Protector. See the Summary I try to quote on every page.

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NeoClassis: Perhaps the only reason for needing END drain is variety?

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At what price variety? Is variety with 20% less DPS (Electric versus Dark) OK? If someone wanted to take the Energy secondary which only has a single AoE attack before level 35, would you let them into the SG?

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bombur: It isn't until my 20s do I really slot my attacks. Let me know if you think I should slot attacks a bit more early.

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Consider that at level 12+, you'll be running around with 4-8 Siphon Powers for +100% to +200% damage most of the time. Add in the fact that by the early 20s you should have 8 stacked Assaults for +150% damage. At level 32+ we'll open every combat with 4 stacked Fulcrum Shifts for up to a +1,200% bonus. (Yes, the Devs really did have a good reason to put in the damage cap, and the max number of targets cap.) Granted that once most of the mobs die it will be down to +200%. I can't see any reason to slot attacks for Damage at all.

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SUMMARY:
Global chat channel: "Tank Mages"
Supergroup: "Tank Mages" on the Protector server
Required Primary power sets: Kinetic, Sonic, Force Field, Defender only
Recommended Secondaries: 4 Kin/Dark, 2 Sonic/Sonic, 2 FF/Sonic
Note: Kin/Elec will do too
Highly Recommended pools: Leadership, Medicine
Several per team: Concealment (Grant Invis), Teleport

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If you were to invest 5 slots in either swift or sprint, what would you do and why?

...

My question was with pvp in mind and wanting unsuppressed speed.

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If it's just a question of combat speed between Sprint and Swift, slot Sprint. It's a bigger bonus, so the enhancements do more for you. That should get you to the 62.1 f/s that I quoted earlier. Sprint can get detoggled, but it's an instant-on toggle like other movement powers. You could use speed on demand keybinds to activate it only when needed, if you have END concerns.

As an alternative, Hover 6 slotted is 46 f/s with a fairly low END cost. It's great for ranged attackers, though slow.

For melee types, Hurdle 5 slotted is 89 f/s at no END cost, though I'd recommend Combat Jumping (very low END cost) for mid-air control. Add a keybind or two to target enemy near, queue attack, autofollow, and +jump. You can also joust with this setup, like a bouncing Yoda.

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What about mobs with status effects? Mobs with 0 END cannot use their attacks that have status effects. Will this superteam be buffed enough that status effects will be a non-issue?

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As far as I know, yes. We'll have high enough Defense that mobs will have a 5% chance to hit us. That means status effects will rarely land. Anyone can pick up Stimulant at level 6. At level 8, the Kinetics get Increase Density. At level 12 the FFs get Dispersion Bubble. The Sonics get something similar at 26, along with a Clear Mind type of power earlier. The Defense and stacked bubbles are probably all we'll really need.

But just in case, maybe carry around a few Inspirations. After all, you won't need Damage, Accuracy, Defense, or Endurance. You might want to keep some Heals around just in case. Otherwise, stock up on Break Frees (or whatever they are these days).

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Also, when fighting a big group, will they all go down fast enough that everyone should be able to survive regardless of the enemies attacks? I am thinking that having END drain just adds more safety to the team, since mobs with no END can only brawl. The only time I have been on anl all defender team, we were not fighting big groups (10+ mobs), and never had multiple bosses. Those groups we did fight though went down FAST!

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All 8 of us will be chain casting damage capped AoEs on Resistance debuffed mobs. Yes, the mobs will fall real fast. At low levels we'll open with multiple Siphon Powers on the bosses to debuff their damage. At higher levels we open with multiple Fulcrum Shifts to damage debuff most of the mobs.

We don't need to survive sustained fire, we just need to survive their alpha strike. The Defense and Resistance we get should be more than sufficient.

If that isn't enough, I hear Transfusion heals for 23% of your HP. Fully slotted, that's about 70%. It's an AoE, and can be cast by half the team every few seconds.

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Although the more I consider the KB that will be in effect from the sonics and possibly the darks (some of it mitigated by the dark TT), we will act as a steam roller most likely pushing mobs into the next group just as they go down. IT might turn into a never ending curtain of doom...

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It gives a new definition to the term "Street Sweeping". We should try it some time.

Since I'm recommending mainly Kin/Darks, I thought I'd post a couple builds. These are both to level 24. At level 24, we can do the Respec Trial and shuffle some things around. By then, we should have plenty of people with Tactics. Speed Boost may make Siphon Speed unnecessary.

The first one is a team mover, with both Siphon Speed and Recall Friend. This is the build I'm following for my Dark TankMage char. The second one has Grant Invis and earlier Increase Density. Both have well slotted triple Leadership, Transfusion, and Speed Boost. Both take the AoEs and certain other signature powers as early as possible. There's a lot of overlap between Increase Density and Stimulant, so I hope the FFs and Sonics take Stimulant while the Kinetics take ID.


Archetype: Defender
Primary Powers - Ranged : Kinetics
Secondary Powers - Support : Dark Blast

01 : Dark Blast acc(01) acc(9)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(5) hel(5) hel(7)
02 : Gloom acc(02) acc(9)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04) acc(7)
06 : Siphon Speed acc(06)
08 : Recall Friend recred(08)
10 : Maneuvers endred(10) defbuf(11) defbuf(11) defbuf(23) defbuf(23)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(13) endrec(13) endrec(15) endrec(15) endrec(17)
14 : Tactics endred(14) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(21) thtbuf(21)
16 : Tenebrous Tentacles acc(16)
18 : Inertial Reduction jmp(18)
20 : Night Fall acc(20)
22 : Increase Density damres(22)
24 : Assault endred(24)


ALTERNATE

01 : Dark Blast acc(01)
01 : Tranfusion acc(01) hel(3) hel(3) hel(5) hel(5) hel(7)
02 : Gloom acc(02)
04 : Siphon Power acc(04)
06 : Maneuvers endred(06) defbuf(7) defbuf(9) defbuf(9) defbuf(11) defbuf(11)
08 : Increase Density damres(08)
10 : Grant Invisibility defbuf(10)
12 : Speed Boost endrec(12) endrec(13) endrec(13) endrec(15) endrec(15) endrec(17)
14 : Tactics endred(14) thtbuf(17) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(19) thtbuf(21) thtbuf(21)
16 : Tenebrous Tentacles acc(16) conrng(23)
18 : Inertial Reduction jmp(18)
20 : Night Fall acc(20) conrng(23)
22 : Aid Other hel(22)
24 : Assault endred(24)