Thundorn

Id have to agree that if you are making a herding tank, although fire armour has some great mob control potential and nice DoT AoE. If you dont plan on taking hasten you might land in hot water. Healing flames is very effective however without hasten your un the risk of being taken down before it recharges even with tough. I have a fire nrg tank, which i have fireshield, plasma shield and tough all 3 slotted with resdmg and although a lot of fun, and on a team with kins and emps he is the dogs danglies, if you have no buffs and heals coming your way it would be a bit close at times.

Speaking as someone who's first 50 was an empathy defender. Healing is a lot easier if people let the tanker take the damage. Heal other is long ranged and fast recharge if slotted correctly. theres no requirement for the empath to get hit by anything. I got the FUN out of getting the satisfaction that i had managed to prevent anybody from dying and keeping people buffed with fort, RA, EB and CM. getting nailed becasue the blaster stood next to me didnt wait for the tank to aggro and has got nemesis grenades coming in at me was not fun it was damned annoying.

My point is that there are lots of different play styles and tactics to use. And im all for that. Just dont blame me if the team gets wiped out because they didnt stick together or becasue the squishies got too close or got impatient. i wont sit there stubbornly refusing to help out people becasue they didnt do as i asked. if someone is in trouble becasue they didnt wait for me to get aggro, ill do my best to help them out, after all that is essentially what tanking is about. and im quite happy to skrank. if there is a stone tank in the team who can take teh damage better. I'm just worried that the tried and tested aggro-hold-aoe-melee which works best and very smoothly will be lost completely becasue people dont want to be boring. Use your whacky techniques by all means, debt isnt a big issue, but missions do get boring if teams constantly get wiped through poor tactics and impatience.

Good eaxample was last night. i was invited to join a team of 50's doing AV's. i was only lvl 40 so was sked up. we flew throught the missions at warp speed because they let me aggro, then the trollers immobilised them around me so that my aoe's could do some damage, then the blasters hit their aoe's whilst the scrappers cleaned up the strays and any that got knocked back too far. We killed Nemesis in about fifteen minutes from mish start to finish. we then went on to rescue Statesman from the preatorians and that AV who's name i have forgotten at this point. again nice and quick and smooth. got myself the Statesman's pal badge which i am chuffed with, and the team worked well together. Thats where the fun is for me, nice bit of TEAMWORK which is something i see less and less. too many teams with 8 solo'ers all trying to get their body count up IMO.

I suppose i should clear up what my OP was really. Herding is one mere example of it. And i tend to only do it if the team is either struggling to deal with aggro containment (i.e only aggroing one mob at a time in close proximity to other mobs) or if they ask me to do so.

I am always up for new experiences and i by no means insist that people i team with should be generic AT's for their stereotypical role. HOWEVER, my main gripe is those players who quite clearly are in some kind of race with the tanker, be it to prove they are just as tough or whatever. Follow the tank is a rule i play by on my other AT's but dont expect people to use when i am tanking the way i see it you follow the person who has moved on first. But when you are the first person to move and other players run in the other direction despite that. Thats when it gets irritating and thats when i start sending tells to my global friends list looking for a new team.

I encountered a guys last night that was at the other end of the spectrum. I joined a team, of guys that had clearly teamed together a few times before. I got this imrepssion becasue the empath was constanly asking the other tank, to herd up entire rooms so that he could nova them. (amusingly enough these nova almost always ended up in the empath dying shortly after cos it was weak) anyways, the first time i heard them talking about herding i was pleased. Finally! i thought. However upon witnessing the other tanks first attempt at herding, it dawned on me that he didnt actually understand the concept fully. i.e he would run in, use his mud pots and his taunt to aggro the bad guys but instead of goin to a herd point, like behing a pillar or something, how would just stand there in themiddle of the room. only about four of the huge number of minions he had aggroed would actually get anywhere close to him and the rest were miles away hitting him with ranged attacks. No problem for a stone tank of course. but for the squishies who were trying to work out which to go for it was a problem. i saw this as an opportunity to set a new example and maybe, without having to belittle another player demonstrate for him the correct method of herding. i sent a tell to the empath saying that if he was goin to nova to use couple of reds and a couple of yellows bafore he did it, which he replied to saying he would try it. Then the next time the tank said herding i said ill help. more bad guys to nova cos we could double the number of bad guys in the herd point and therefore the number of bad guys that would get nuked. Unfortunately the other tank didnt want to share the "Glory" and started lecturing me on how that wasnt how to herd etc. i chose to ignore his little lesson mainly becasue i had already aggroed two mobs and was headed for my herd point, which was the same place that our no.1 tank had identified as his. lovely jubbly two mobs all in melee range around me just waiting for the other tank and his mobs to join the party. NOPE he was stood smack bang in the middle of the room with two bad guys in melee range whilst the rest of his aggro was at a safe ranged attack distance. and hes stood there calling for the empath to nova. Obviously the empath being friends with the other tank, did as he was asked and went to nova those two minions, and shortly after go face planted. Now perhaps i was wrong for trying to help the guy out by demonstrating the right way of doing it. but after it was clear to me that the team were behind him all the way, making digs like asking him to herd and saying ALONE at the end of each sentence i figured it was a lost cause. and as soon as the mission was over i made my excuses and left.

Point of my story is, that its not always the teams fault. sometimes the tank is just as daft as the rest of em

I think in his own little way, irradiator made a good illustration of what the kind of people i was referring to would look like if i turned th profanity filter back on.

Good Work!!

Agree with most of the opinions on here. i probably however should hav made the thread in a different section of the forum. it did start off as a post about people attitudes in pvp zones but then i sort of side stepped into a different topic. my bad.

To answer you questions marquand, i dont advocate hero gank squads any more then i do villains, and we all know it happpens. my point is that although i dont particularly appreciate being ganked by any combination of people, i wont lay there a snotty heap blurting out profanities because it happened. theres no point.

And as far as fighting for agreement. somewhat a contradiction in terms really but i see what your trying to say. what i was more refering to was those people who have nothing constructive to say and just like being unpleasant.

I dont know about anybody else but i tend to raise my children with the motto, if you dont have anything nice to say then dont say anything. And they are words i try to stick to myself.

[ QUOTE ]
People are perfectly in their rights to duel in a PvP zone, but they can't whinge about it if they get interupted. If you want a duel with no outside interference, then the arena is the only option.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly my point

I have noticed not only in game play but also reading the forums that there are a handful of "Camps" as to the mentality in PvP zones.

I have heard some players/forumites in one thread say that duelling is for the arena and that it shouldnt take place in pvp zones, and then two threads down the list complaining about interference when they are dualling in a pvp zone.

Some people think ganking is a hellworthy trespass whilst others say, pvp is a free for all so anything goes. Ive heard stalkers argue that hide is their inherant power so they should be free to use it without complaint but dont like people using CM to combat it.

The point of this rambling is that, PvP has always been a hot potato and to be honest i dont think there will ever be a happy medium. but is there any real need for some of the more personnal criticisms that i see reading these forums day in day out?

It seems to be a common trend that a post is made, a few constructive replies are posted then a list of replies that are basically people picking holes in each others ideas.

Isnt that the whole reason we pay for and play this game? because there is no linearity or set way to play.

I hate bumping in to role players in pvp becasue they tend to gank using the argument that they are villains so are completely justified in their actions. But im not going to criticise them because that is the way they have chosen to play.

perhaps some people are not as encyclopedic as others or maybe people just lack the vocabulary to get their point across in a way that is not condecending to others, but then some people are just plain rude. Bridger has been away four days and ive already seen several posts which have resulted in flaming sessions.

Everyone has a different opinion about some subjects but that doesnt make them any less right. So why belittle them?

I agree with toughguy on this.

Not to offend anyone but i do wonder how much people think before they type. The Kheldians are epic AT's for the same reason that veteran rewards are now here.

If you get all the cool stuff right at the start, how long do you think it will be before you loose interest and move onto another game.

Would you buy A different game only to see the end credits and fmv sequence as soon as you boot up?? i very much doubt it. Fact is that kheldians are as close to end content as you are likely to get in this game and as such should be a challenge to get. Otherwise it gets boring.

As for a reward for getting a kheldian to 50, well i dont think theres much they can do. personnaly ive resorted to experimentation with different AT's and jsut trying to play for fun. And nowadays i invest a lot of time in my SG who always need help or advice in some shape or other. It ies essentially a free play game in the sense that you have the freedom to do whatever you like, with no fixed story line, and no "CONGRATULATIONS YOU HAVE COMPLETED THIS GAME NOW BUY THE SEQUEL"

Hehe, gotta love the forums, always a morale boost.

In fact im starting to find this thread is getting depressing.

Cm is a pain for ALL AT's not just villains but heros too, when fighitn in WB. HOWEVER there are powers that other AT's have which are equally as annoying. CM makes it harder to hide, hold debuff etc. But its a primary power of the empth and hence why should it be any more different in PvP then say Stalkers being able to hide and if done correctly 3 hit any AT except maybe tankers. How is that any more fair then CM. Hide isnt the only power obviously but its a good example. Not to mention the stacking of invis that has become common in pvp. So i ask you this...

Can you wander round in PvP and get 3 hit by an enemy you didnt even realise was there, and still claim that you would refuse CM if it was offered because it effects the inherant powers of other players??

And be honest, rather then still argue the toss for arguments sake.

Ref. the note about the 7 team members reply to my last.

Unless you are very lucky, you will not get teams of 8 people most of the time, unless of course you have a group of regulars that you always team with. you tend to find, particularly at lower levels (bearing in mind we are talking about a tank build from scratch not just a lvl 50's respec options for fighting AV's) that youll end up in a PuG of 4 ppl, who may not be as experienced as you.

My point is that you cant really base a build on the best case scenario, i.e. team of 8 people all experienced all playing a useful role in the team. having said that theres not necessarily any need to build for the worst case either. when its all said and done, enrgy melee is very useful however depending on what armour you choose, taunt would be a very handy option mainly because your the tank and there will garaunteed be a situation where you are needed to take aggro from an ally, and personnaly i dont really fancy dragging the baddies that i have got around me, straight at the squishies so that me AoE can get their attention. BAD idea, especially wehn dealing with enemies like nemesis, who grenade the poop out of you hitting all around you and doing only minor damage to yourself, but wiping out all the squishies you have just made a bee line for

But you have to remember that AV's although fun dont make up the majority of the game, where scattered minions actually do. Half the time you will find the squishies on your team manage to find the one who hasnt bitten on your aggro yet and taunt will save their behinds. Cant base an entire build on one type of baddie. respec it out later if you wish but i would say taunt is a MUST HAVE for any tank.

Well yea,

its a fine line between fighting your way out of trouble and ganking, as far as becoming pure evil towards the morons in the zones, i assume you are referring to spammers, gloaters and people who are generally unpleasant?

Maybe im just soft in the head or something but even when playing on my villains i still refuse to play "Unfairly" i.e i dont gank and i generally dont attack lone toons that have no chance, unless of course they start it or they challenge me. Not my definitive playing style but generally how i play, i wont attack easy targets unless they give me reason to. Maybe thats the wrong philosophy for PvP, i just dont know. But i see the fun being in the challenge, rather then the ability to gloat over a high rep because i play the vulture game.

Oh I agree, If a situation occured when the mobs were already in herd, or where i was taking ages to get ggro, then i wouldnt be as fussed if they got impatient. I use my fire nrg tanker a lot, and herding really doest take long. The problem is that some people really cant wait those ten seconds for me to run in, and run to my herd point, and i often find that upon my return the squishies have actually moved right into my herd point so its time fot me to go into quick thinking plan b mode. Do i a) go to my herd point anyway and hope the idiots get out of the way, b) find another suitable herd point safely away from the squishies (not always possible) or do it c) take what baddies actually come into melee range and let the blasters try to nail the other 90% who stay away to blat me with ranged attack. Tough call really.

I guess its a case of perception. A lot of people as already mentioned claim they have been ganked when they have been killed, i guess just to save face or somehting.

The way i see ganking is basically when its quite clearly an unfair fight and there is no possible way you could win.

Oh absolutely, I know that other AT's do have some trouble fulfilling their "Cookie Cut" Role. The amount of time when as a defender ive been griped at for not attacking directly when ive been concentrating on buffing/debuffing, or times when a mind troller has used confuse and everyone goes straight to attack the confused one is laughable.

I find that the fore-reunner technique does work, but i also find that, even as a tank, team support becomes very important, especially against mobs of +3 or higher. and the crossroads scenario always causes a giggle. Debt is not something i fear, like some people i have teamed with recently who consider death a sin worse then murder. You come to a crossroad part of a map. Being the tank you run ahead, expecting your team mates to do the common sense thing and follow behind, you aggro a mob, and tada!! no team in sight. theyve all buggered off the other way and now your in the poo cos you have +3's panning your head in whilst the oh so brave scrapper aggros a room full of baddies and then leads them straight to the squishies hoping to catch the next exciting installment of heal aura.

IT seems lately, there is an epidemic of teams who dont use tanks to their full potential. (hopefully its not a long running thing cos i love old skool tanking) What i mean is that ive teamed with a lot of PuG's lately and in the interests of not coming across all ****** retentive, i havent tried to "educate" them on what a tank actually does. And it seems that I probably should. The amount of scrappers whom i have teamed with lately who for some reason (maybe its blood lust i dont know) cant wait those ten extra seconds for me to herd up and get the aggro solid, and run off ahead and aggro on their own. (this has on numerous occasions resulted in their death, surprisingly enough. Not surprisingly though guess who gets the blame when that happens) its not just scrappers mind you. the amount of times ive been herding, gone to my customary pillar or corner to draw them in only to find my expected herd has been frozen in their tracks by the moronic troller who has gone and held them in a nice "Spread out as far apart as possible" configuration. Again resulting in people getting nailed because the are too far apart to taunt all in one go.
Another classic is the blaster who messes it up, while im off getting baddies attention with my AoE the blaster decides to snipe one of the ones i havent gotten to yet, which then results in me having to chase them down to regain aggro.

It certainly adds a new dynamic to the game anyway. Im up for a challenge like anyone else but when i start getting blamed becasue our scrapper thinks he's a tank or people dont understand the phrase "Herding to here stay put and dont attack till i say Ready!" then i get annoyed.

Rant Over

yea ill go with that, my list would be : Barrage, Bone smasher, Whirling Hands, Build Up, Total Focus, Energy Transfer. Ive gone for barrage instead of energy punch becasue although its weaker, the recharge time is better and its less end heavy, and i always find there just that last bit of health left on the baddies bar, that i dont want to waste a powerfull attack or the associated endurance on.

Gankin in my eyes depends on how many people atually HIT you. if there is an empath nearby not actually doing you any harm but buffing and healing your opponent, i wouldnt necessarily call that ganking, just cowardly.

depends who you are sneaking up on really. People tend to forget about AT's for some reason. Now i know that people hate hearing comparisons between Hero and Villain AT's, but lets look at it logically.

In SHort, Pick on the wrong bloke, an regardless of CM they are gonna kick your behind round the four corners of the map, simple.

Ok i have another alternative, although not as cetailed, more just a list of powers to go for, makes good PvP and teamin.

Barrage, Bone Smasher, Whirling Hands, Build up, Total Focus, Energy Transfer.

Blazing Aura, Fire SHield, Plasma Shield, Burn, Consume, Fiery Embrace.

Hasten, Boxing, Tough, Combat Jumping, Super jump, Acrobatics, Swift, Health, Stamina.

Healing Flames Slotted with 3 heal and 3 recharge, will take 15 ish seconds to recharge and will make you virtually unkillable as long as your end holds out anyway. Tough, mainly because IME the two shields in the fire set are good in normal play but in pvp they are pants.

Obviously other ppl use different builds but i find thats the one that works for me. I try to choose powers that will boost my pvp abilities withough spoiling my normal play and reduce my ability to actually tank.

Id have to agree with you on the brute build although, i would say that certain types of tanker are similar. My Fire armour tanker had impressive defence in normal play but in pvp was getting anhialated constantly, with both fire shield and plasma shield slotted 3 dmg resist. To compensate i had to use up two of my powers in order to get tough, just to survive against a stalker in one on one combat. Ironically, fighting the same stalker, my ice armour tanker, was a little more rugged (i emphasize only a little) but the end drain on the ice armour gets a little too much when being assassin strike-lung-placate repeatedly.

Its a fine balance really, by rights brutes and tankers should be able to stand up pretty well with just their primary armours, and deal a good amount as well. But then i suppose if it were that easy, everybody would pvp on tanks and brutes. I think if pvp was more of a team thing the problems encountered by most AT's wouldnt be so hard to balance out. But unfortunately, a LARGE number of people PvP solo, and i guess this is where the problem lies. In order to stop those solo PvP'ers getting destroyed by what would be a tougher or stronger AT in normal play, the inherant characteristics of those AT's has to be nerfed.
Otherwise you would have tanks and brutes having hour long battles, long after they have gotten rid of all the other AT's in the area. this of course is a generalization i know of course that tanks and brutes arent the be all and end all and there are AT's built out there that would make easy work of either but more as an example.

what build was the brute?

Pure human build is an interesting subject. I'd like to hear more about building human form for PvP as well. I dont see PB's and WS's in pvp much so it would be interesting to see what people think. Given the massive damage output that PB's CAN be capable of i would expect to see more out there.

im with you hammerfall. Why i said that to jaqueline was that as im sure you have noticed, the clear mind thread turned into a b**ching session about how biased pvp is in favour of heroes. but as you just said. its about experience and knowing what you are doin.

I mentioned using good tactics and things got a bit snotty. Oh well such is life.