Thorizdin_LotD

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This shouldn't really come from the player base but instead be a Devs decision based on research and a coherent line of thought. Right know all we have is an across the board nerf with the only explanation given as ''It was too much". How did they come up with those numbers? What kind of dynamics are they trying to accomplish with TD? How do they envision the usage of toggle dropping powers and how often it should happen? What kind of powers and AT should be good at it?

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So what you really want is the devs to make a rational judgement based on datamining _and_ to explain that decision. For one, I think they probably did make a rational judgement but its not beyond what I would consider reasonable for those numbers to get an upward nudge. I don't really expect them to explain themselves, although more data is always a good thing, they don't want to expose too much of their internal debates to us the players.

I think its a good idea personally. It means that its easier to go after a pillbox that the other side has already captured. ie, you will often need a defending force to help hold the pillboxes while your assault team takes others. Whats dumb about more strategic depth?

Specifically which AT's and powers do you think need to be increased?

I agree with your observations on Controllers. What I don't agree with is that Controllers are in a "good place". Are they fun to play? without question. Are more people playing them? certainly. All this sounds good, Controllers went from being unpopular to being very popular because of some changes. The problem is that devs had to go too far to get there. Now, before the flames start spouting, I'm not advocating a change to Controllers nor am I saying they are grossly overpowered. What I am saying is that they are in general somewhat overpowered and with some power combinations very overpowered. Holding up Controllers as a good example of what should be done to Doms will get more people playing the AT. People like to be a the top of the heap, but that doesn't mean that is what is best for the game. Controllers are the most effective hero AT on the hero side for team v team PvP and once they get into their APP's they can also solo in PvP quite effectively. Of course people like them, who wouldn't? (besides people who play Defenders that is)

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No, you got the tone exactly correct. Sarcasm is sometimes needed to counter sanctimony. Discussing changes and what we still could use to be effective is the purpose of this thread. Yet, all I have seen is people tell some of us that Doms are fine and we either are whiners or don't know how to play this game. (At least that what it reads like.)

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That was not what I intended. What I was trying to convey was that we were able to make Doms do more than just work in a team, but be major contributors. Since we have veered back into the PvP stream, the mention a /Dark Cor was something that I felt needed to be pointed out.

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I agree, but Corrs can at least heal damage much more easily than a Dom. Pop a BF and hit you're heal. One INS, not the 2 that Doms need. Plus Corrs can do more damage due to their buffs/debuffs. Even a */Dark Corr gets Tar Patch which has a -RES component that can increase the damage potential of his team.

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Cors are and will continue to be, the back bone of any villain team. However, the nice thing about debuffs is that they benefit the whole team, including the Doms there. -RES is a very powerful debuff, but only so much is needed. If you can kill a target in a matter of seconds, more -RES won't help you. In the meantime, the Dom is contributing damage and toggle drops and building towards Domination. Since most defense and resistance based powers are toggles, Dom's are in some ways the ultimate debuffer.

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Never said they could. But, even from what you said, Doms need Corr back-up. Maybe this is truly a factional thing, but if a Dom goes into a zone, should they leave if there isn't a "pocket-Corr" for them? There are WAY too many ways to nuetralize Doms at any level. BF's eliminate the primary and the secondary is weak for PvP purposes. The changes to Domination go a long way to help since we get the increase in Mag and it does come up faster (assuming you can live long enough to build it.) Tactics and Assualt would help boost damage output, but if people follow the recommended Power Pool allotment, they can't get them.

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A solo Dom in the PvP zones will have problems. I don't have a problem with that. Very few AT's can solo in the PvP zones well.

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Again, I am looking at ALL players being able to PvP on any decent team and have at least a taste of success. We board readers sometimes forget that we are a vocal minority and PvP shouldn't be an exclusive club that eliminates the fun for casual PvP'ers. Should they expect to come into a zone and run the place? Probably not, but to totally discourage them isn't acceptable either. Everyone should have a fighting chance.

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I agree to a certain extent, but does saying everyone should have a fighting chance mean that the guy who 6 slotted Jump Kick ought to do ok to? I believe that PvP does need to get more casual and new player friendly. I don't believe that reducing the tactical depth is the way to do it. IMO, the right answer is to create a multi-build system and allow characters to change between builds at specific places in the game. The villain and hero bases in the PvP zones would of course have these stations. I also believe that better information and better player preparation are critical. The game currently does very little to prepare players for entering the zones. This doesn't make sense from a game design or a RP PoV. Why would the factions not do their best to prepare characters to combat the enemy? Obviously not all things should be exposed, but letting characters test their +PER abilities against a "captured" Stalker who is locked in a cage would help people understand how far away from someone they can see him. Lots of room for improvement there.

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So, leaving the zone every ten minutes to recharge your INS tray is the only way to play? There is a huge disparity between heroes and villians in mezz abilities and protection. (Warburg is even worse since there can be Villian-on-Villian action as well.) Yet, whenever I or others bring this up as a problem, we are told that we should just use BF's or get a "pocket-Corr." This only is a partial solution for many and is worsened in PvE with the amount of mezz-producing minions in the late game.

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Teaming issue, no different than any of the squishies before RV and only different then for Controllers. In terms of mez protection, there isn't a great deal of disparity between villain and hero buffs. In other areas this is more true, but its not a significant disadvantage for villains. Both sides have the same number of Inspiration slots per level.

The only reliable toggle drops in the game is something that people need to consider, and smart teams will. The only power with better toggle dropping percentages is Trip Mine and only the Cor and MM version. Its 75% to drop one toggle while all of the Dom big melee attacks have a 64% chance to drop one. I can tell you, its a lot easier to get somone in Total Focus range than to get someone to step on a Trip Mine.

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Thanks for the "facts" about Ice/Dark. I bow to your greatness, oh wise one.


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Tone is very difficult to discern on forums, lets keep the sarcasm to minimum if possible.

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The -ToHit change does hamper the set a bit and it's not the best for PvP,

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Its not just the change to toHitDebuff enhancements. Heroes have significantly more and higher toHitBuffs than the villain faction. This means that Dark is more effective for heroes fighting villains even if the debuff numbers were exactly the same. To make matters worse for /Dark Cors, the debuff numbers are worse than they are for Defenders and they are resistable. Most Blasters have the tools to counter, and more, all of the debuffs that a /Dark can apply from the time they can enter BB, via Buildup and Aim. In RV, Scrappers and Tanks can do the same with FA and BU.

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but as for them needing as much care as a Dom, you must be stating an opinion here. Most Corrs get a self-heal (albeit a ToHit is required). That alone makes them more survivable in PvP. Add in other buffs/debuffs, they can hold their own for a bit longer.


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First, no amount of self heals protect from mezzes, and only /Sonic and /Traps have self mez protection and neither of them have self heals, so from that point of view Corruptors are just as team dependent.

Assuming that a Cor doesn't get mezzed Thermals are the main villain healer, so they will be more survivable. Rad gets a weak, but reliable PBAoE heal. Dark gets a strong, caster centered, PBAoE heal that requires a toHit check and Kin gets a moderate, target centered PBAoE heal that requires a toHit check. /Sonic, /Traps, and /Ice don't get heals. (Traps does get Triage Beacon, which is +REGEN, but not an effective heal.)

Cor Debuff !> Dom controls and debuffs (slow is a debuff IMO)

Again, Cors require as much care and feeding as Doms.


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So if the right combo of AT's aren't in a zone when a Dom enters, shoulld they just leave? PvP should be easy, fun and quick. The changes to Domination should help, but the fact that active Defenses don't work in PvP is very evident. A non-aligned Dominator (coming in already on a team) will still be like the last kid picked in P.E. class, a pity pick-up at best.


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I don't know why this is so hard for people, but the vast majority of all CoX AT's don't PvP effectively solo. A skilled and well built Cor can, but so can a skilled well built Dom. Blasters also require team support. In a team balanced game, its unreasonable to expect anything else IMO. As for PvP being fun and easy, that has to be balanced against having a long term challenge and having some tactical depth. Doms are great counters for the things that give Corruptors trouble, why would a team want them?

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So any player that wants to PvP should take (from what I have read on the boards time and again):

Leaping: CJ, SJ and Acrobatics (3 powers)
Medicine: One of the first 2, Aid Self (2 powers)
Speed: Hasten (1 power)
Fitness: Swift, Health, Stamina (3 powers)


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One of the things that differentiates all PvP builds from PvE builds is that more power pools are taken and weaknesses are minimized. With the possible exception of Aid Self, which my /Sonic Cor will have, those powers will be taken by almost any squishy that wants to PvP. Go look at good Corruptor, Controller, and Defender builds, you'll see the same powers selected in most cases. Now, is there an issue that Acrobatics is so much better than the other tier 4 travel power pools? I think so, but its not a Dom issue at all.

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There are nine powers and people are locked into SJ for a travel power. That leaves 11 powers from your primary and secondary.

Now, go grab (at level 40 ) 4 Greens, 4 Blues, and 12 BF's. When they run out leave the zone to get more.

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That, as I said, is good advice for _any_ squishy that wants to PvP, except I'd probably drop the blues and Greens for more BF's unless you're not sure about your team.

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Lastly, run like heck if you see anyone with the pink Pom-Poms of death 'cause you gonna get stunned.

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I really don't get this kind of statement, do you think you have no options? Pop a Break Free _before_ you get hit, no stun. Clarity also works wonders and Aid Self offers resistance, IIRC.

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Primary > Secondary > PowerPool
I can litterally Spam my WebGrenade.. it's a 4 second recharge for me. The PPP -JMP powers take considerably longer to recharge.

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Somewhat true, but currently on Test just having a couple of people with Web Cocoon more than replaces what one person with Web Grenade can do. In addition, Web Envelope is a fairly large AoE version of Web Grenade.
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Now let's talk about PPP holds... everyone but Brutes and Doms get one. How's this any different than your example of PPP Web powers? ...because there's no Suppresion on debuffs and no escaping them with breakfrees. If a team all uses their hold focus-fire style, they'll break that Scrapper or Tankers mez protection in 1 alpha... thus they don't need a Dom. But the likelyhood that all of them will have a -JMP power is much less probable and means they won't be chain-debuffing anyone.


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Its different in one very critical regard. It only takes 1 Web Coccoon or Web Envelope hitting to apply the -JUMP and -FLY, while it takes 5-6 of the PPP holds to get through base mez protection on a Scrapper or a Tank. (You need 9 Mag's of holds to bypass Scrapper mez protection and 12 on a Tank) In other words, more than half of your team has to hit, _and_ the target has to only have the built in mez protection active. 2 Doms can bypass Scrapper mez protection by themselves even if only one of them has Domination up. In addition, having one character able to drop 6 Mag's of hold in one hit makes it far, far, far easier for the Ice Cor's to contribute.

At the end of the day, we all need to see what evolves, but we have proven that Doms can be effective in team PvP. If I were the devs I would take great care with any further upward adjustments. Once given it is very hard to take away.

The devs have consistently said that balance in PvP is being implemented around teams. Not casual versus serious, but teams. Any team that fails to recognize Doms as valuable these days is going to be in for a surprise long term. As I said, Doms require no more or less care and feeding than most Cors, so why would they be so hard to keep alive? IMO, an Ice/Dark does a far better job replacing a Dom in PvE rather than PvP. Ice/ does get 2 single target holds, but /Dark is _not_ a good set in PvP currently especially for villains. toHitBuffs > /Dark

At the end of the day all I can say is that we benefit greatly from bringing Doms. While do have a dedicated VG and we create teams based on AT synergy is that so uncommon or so unrealistic to expect from players? Acrobatics protects from one application of most/all of the non Controller holds, is it unrealistic that you buy a tray of Breakfree's before entering the zone?

Certainly your /Traps Cor will have more solo ability, especially if ya add Aid Self, but I wouldn't give him equal billing in a team situations. Dom's do require some care and feeding, but no more and no less than all but /Traps and /Sonc Corruptors, which are the only ones (IIRC) that get their own mez protection. Web Grenade is good, its one of the few reasons my /Dev Blaster is still ok. However everyone and their brother, on the villain side, is going to have Web Cocoon and/or Web Envelope that its value is going to go down. The devs have always had a hard time balancing damage as a secondary. It never seems to work out that well, however with Doms having the best toggle drops left in the game and Domination much more often, there are lots of options to deal with the lack of damage from Doms.

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and our rock shouldn't be just a wet ball of dirt

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What PvE content makes you feel that useless and what's your pri/sec?

Thanks Atomic, you're always welcome to fight with us.

I still don't see this as a big issue. The complaints about the strings of AV's that heroes encounter in the 40's has been corrected, the one thing that does need to get fixed is that AV's that get dropped down to EB's need to lose the AV "purple triangles". Other than that I don't see a big problem, will there be mez resistant mobs? Certainly, but there should be a "paper" to our "rock".

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Unfortunately, the ways we "neutralize" a threat is vastly different. Damage is always effective, control is seldom effective (especially at higher levels).


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I'd have to disagree, I never had problems with Doms in PvE. My Fire/Fire in the CoV beta was able to solo Relentless contact missions with ease. My Ice/En can't solo as quickly, but he runs on the middle setting in most cases simply because he doesn't have the AoE damage to handle the larger spawns. Control isn't his problem at all. My Mind/Ice is also fine in PvE. Now, some can and do have some issues, but I don't see that as a global AT level problem.

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As stated before, Blasters have damage on their side. But both Defenders and Corrs have the ability to buff/heal themselves or debuff their opponents. As Doms, we have nothing to fall back on. It's hold or nothing in most cases.

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Ice certainly has other options, Ice Slick, the cumulative slows, Artic Air, etc. Mind also has plenty of options and Confuse got a buff to its animation speed which will help even more. My Fire/Fire had zero problems, but Imps are the best PvE pets by far.
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This can be said about ANY AT. I've done some amazing things in Siren's with my Warshade if I can get on a good team. Still doesn't make Warshades very suitable to PvP.

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Warshades have a rather large dependency that Doms don't have. Far too many of their good self buffs and other powers require mob's. With the changes to Domination you won't see a Dom off to the side beating up npc's to get ready for a fight. Unfortunantly you will see this with WS's.
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This is a big point you bring up. I'll counter with the number of support AT's per side that can grant mezz protection. Obviously heroes get Defenders and Controllers. Both very powerful and abundant. Villians get Corrs and MM's. So on the surface it looks even, except the only power set for MM's that can give a Clariuty/Clear Mind style of protection is Poison. The others only offer PBAoE resistance. This tilts the advantage away from viliians (very much away from Doms.)

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Factional balance is one of the things that concerns me. I think the devs need to make MM's more a good buffing class. The mez protection buff in Poison only last 45 seconds!

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Most doms don't have a dedicated PvP supergroup to support them so the realities they'll be facing will be in stark contrast to his. Plain and simple, Thoriz is sheltered, not creditable, and basing almost the entirety of his opinions on this matter off of FotM Ice builds in his elite SG.

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I have to laugh at this, FOTM? My Ice/En Dom was my very first villain character when CoV released. I didn't finish leveling him because I could see how broken they were for PvP. I have resumed leveling him because that is no longer the case. I compare Dom's to Blasters since they do have similar play styles in PvP, there are differences as well, but in both cases your defense is your ability to neutralize threats before they can hurt you. As for how I play, yes its almost entirely with members of my SG. However, the argument that my viewpoint is irrelevant because of that isn't particularly relevant. Is it so much to ask that /Thermals have, and use, Thaw? or /Sonics do the same with Clarity? I don't believe so, nor do I believe that it takes a dedicated PvP VG to do so. The only real justification that I can see for giving Doms mez protection in their PPP's due to factional balance. Controllers do get those powers, which brings the number of hero AT's with mez protection to 3 while only 2 villain AT's have mez protection outside of normal pool powers.

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I PvP with SG's built for PvP from the ground up too, so I know a difference it makes. But expecting everyone else to do the same is like yelling "134rN 2 P1Ay n00b" and that's not a casual solution to the problem. It totally ignores the Weaknesses that people are pointing out here.


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Blasters, Defenders, and Corruptors manage without self mez protection, I don't think that everyone should have it. IMO, Controller ought not to have been given mez protection, but that's already out there. Just because an AT requires team support to be good doesn't mean it needs a buff. Solo Blasters get chewed up pretty badly, just look at the number of threads in the Blaster forum saying just that. The devs have said that they are balancing around team v team PvP and everyone should carry BF's with them when they enter one of the PvP zones.

Whether you want to believe me or not is your choice. I can say that Doms are worth having on PvP teams. Doms on good teams do quite well, we ran with 3 last night, 2 VG members and a pickup and did very well in RV till our /Thermal ran into network problems.

I don't expect mez protection on Dom's. In PvE I normally play them the same way I play Blasters. It would be nice, but not a requirment IMO.

I'd suggest you test this before commenting, this is a buff and quite a large one. I personally don't believe that Doms need anymore big adjustments. Some small ones would be fine, but the biggest PvP issues have been addressed.

Thats kind of like telling an office full of workers that they can print their messages and make them into paper airplanes to shoot down two flights of stairs for communication. Just because its a "use" for something doesn't mean it will get used. In this case, I don't see this as useful for anyone.

I would think so, but if they are that worried they could cap the number that you can have or make them only last a day. There are lots of ways to lessen the chance of them being abused, of course there isn't much chance of abuse now

I wish they would give some indication that an invisible solid object is there. Perhaps a smoky outline of Recluse to indicate the potential of the switch...

I think they are concerned with people building a lot of these and then abusing them if they let them take the form of temp powers or custom Inspirations. However, I'd say that unless they do something like that they won't get used. If that means they're useless until Cryptic builds the code so you can only carry 1-3 or some other reasonable number, then that may be what has to happen. As it is now, I just don't see them being used for PvE or PvP. I really don't understand, they are certainly so far below what Warburg nukes can do, why those aren't balance threatening to carry with you but the buffs from Empowerment Stations are..... 0_o

Even from a PvE PoV who wants something you have to die to make use of? In lots of missions there isn't any easy way to get to that tough boss without first plowing through most of the map. Do they really want to encourage people to stealth to the boss and then use Recall Friend to get everyone else there?

I don't read anything that screams PvE only, its not like he made an exclusionary statement.

Quite honestly I don't see much value in that statement from a PvE pov either. The current implementation gives buffs that are so minor that I don't see them helping teams very much. I suppose they'll be useful for protecting solo characters from a specific mez type but even that seems iffy to me. On the PvP front, any buff that takes effect from the time of crafting is pretty much useless, even beyond the fact that the buffs are so minor in magnitude.

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Well i dont get it. I dont have power boost. Dom is only up sometime. most times I'm out there iwth one modest duration modest recycling single target hold trying and failing to stack it-sometimes even on the squishies who have acro, buffs and BFs for when I do finally get enough stacked. I'm basically a target until I can get dom up, and on live now thats a beatch! Fingers crossed for the increased ability to build the dom bar coming in i7.

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Bear in mind that all of the comments here are about what's on test server, ie I7, _not_ what is on live.

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This is based on the assumption that clear mind is a magnitude 15 mezz resist, standard Dom holds are magnitude 2 and mag 3 with domination up.

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Err, first Dom's have the magnitude of holds as Controllers. Some people call this 2 and some call it 3. Domination _doubles_ the magnitude of mez effects. A Stalker running Practiced Brawler takes 3 holds to break PB without Domination while with Domination it takes 1.5 (ie one Dom with Domination and one without it) to hold through PB.