The_Spad_EU

*ahem*

[ QUOTE ]
Bear in mind that everything I'm about to say is in reference to those who are playing a Tanker for the first time and are perhaps new to the game entirely, so please don't whinge about how you're amazing and can easily do things that I've claimed to be impossible.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's all well and good from the point of view of somebody who reads the forums and knows the game well, but for a new player it's just not practical.

[ QUOTE ]
What if you dont want Earth mastery for an epic?

Plus whats worthless to you may not be worthless to someone else. One cant talk for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you wanted a PBAoE sleep as a Tanker and didn't have one, then you would have to take Earth Mastery or go without

Even assuming that my reasoning was flawed, let's compare and contrast with the other T9 powers:

Axe: High Damage Cone attack with Knockback
EM: Very high damage ST attack with Mag 4 Stun
Fire: High damage ST attack with DoT
Stone: High damage ST attack with Mag 4 Hold
SS: High Damage PBAoE attack with Knockback
Mace: High Damage Cone attack with Knockback

Ice: Zero Damage PBAoE Mag 2 Sleep

In other words, it's not even close to comparable. Hell, at least Salt Crystals is a Mag 3 sleep - Frozen Aura won't even affect most Lts.

The thing is, Frozen Aura *is* worthless.

Even if there were regular situations where as a Tanker you need to sleep all the mobs around you and happen to either be Inv Primary or not running your damage aura *and* the rest of your team didn't have any AoEs in play, then you can still get exactly the same effect from Tier one of your APP if you take Earth Mastery.

And if you're solo and the above applies then you've got a really bad build or you're playing on far too high a difficulty.

If there was even a top tier power that needed to be changed, it's Frozen Aura.

[ QUOTE ]
Three priorities for a tank are: Smash/Lethal Armour, Mez resistance, and taunt aura. Pretty much impossible to be a tank without them.

Next priorities would be the HP increase/HP heal, and the various energy/fire/cold protection. All highly useful.

After that takes your pick. Personally, I would say taunt is the next priority, but opinions differ on the matter (See tank/taunt thread).

[/ QUOTE ]

Sadly these days, at the lower levels, a self-heal is much more useful to you than your S/L protection for the most part - especially if you're a Defence-based set.

Take Unyielding asap. Taunt can wait, especially if you already have Invincibility - it may not do damage, but it does Taunt.

There's nothing worse than a Tank who keeps getting mezzed all the time (Well there is, but this is pretty high on the list).

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

taunt auras are at:
lvl2 - CE
lvl18 - invincibility

damage auras are unlocked at:
lvl1 - BA
lvl6 - mudpots
lvl12 - icicles

[/ QUOTE ]
Thats just being annoying with exact wording.
Damage aura has the same usability as a taunt aura, they even are the same just that the effect and rules are different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really, the key difference between a damage aura and taunt aura is that the taunt aura is Auto-Hit, which is beneficial both at lower levels when you don't have access to decent enhancements and also when fighting high conning foes.

Never played Stone or EM, so feedback is welcome:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.20
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Rock Face: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armour
Secondary Power Set: Energy Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armour -- Rchg+(A), Def(3), Def/EndRdx(3), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Run+(40)
Level 1: Barrage -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(17), Dmg/Rchg(42), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), Knock%(48)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Heal/EndRdx(A), EndRdx/Rchg(5), Heal/Rchg(7), Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Heal(11), Rchg(13)
Level 4: Bone Smasher -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(43), Dmg/Rchg(43), Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(43), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Dam%(46)
Level 6: Recall Friend -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 8: Rooted -- Heal/EndRdx(A), Heal(9), Heal/Rchg(9), Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(11)
Level 10: Swift -- Run-I(A), Run-I(17)
Level 12: Mud Pots -- Dam%(A), -Rchg%(13)
Level 14: Teleport -- Rng(A), EndRdx(15), EndRdx/Rng(15)
Level 16: Taunt -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 18: Crystal Armour -- Rchg+(A), Def(19), Def/EndRdx(19), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(25), ToHit+(50)
Level 20: Health -- Regen+(A), Rcvry+(21), Heal(21), Regen/Rcvry+(42), Heal(48)
Level 22: Brimstone Armour -- ResDam(A), ResDam/EndRdx(23), ResDam/Rchg(23), ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(27)
Level 24: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(25), EndMod-I(27)
Level 26: Minerals -- Rchg+(A), Def(31), Def/EndRdx(31), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 28: Stone Skin -- ResDam/EndRdx(A), ResDam(29), ResDam/Def+(29)
Level 30: Whirling Hands -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(33), Dmg/Rchg(34), Acc/Rchg(34), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), Dam%(37)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(33), RechRdx-I(33)
Level 35: Energy Transfer -- Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Acc/Dmg(36), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Dmg/EndRdx(36), Dmg/Rchg(37), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Total Focus -- Acc/Dmg(A), Dmg/EndRdx(39), Dmg/Rchg(39), Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 41: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Tough -- ResDam(A), ResDam/EndRdx(45), ResDam/Rchg(45), ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Weave -- Rchg+(A), Def(48), Def/EndRdx(50), Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 49: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet



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[ QUOTE ]
well this will be one, especially untill level 32 as you best move will leave you hanging in the air for 3.3 seconds while all and sundry shoot at you. EM has no real mitigation unless you solo so nothing will slow down the incoming attacks that will breech your defences. You will suck as a "main brute" as the sets dont function that way.

Best thing to put in your search comment is "Stalker with hitpoints" as thats pretty much going to be your role.

enjoy

[/ QUOTE ]

Blimey, did an EA brute run over your dog or something?

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, i didnt know that i had 0 def at the time, so a 5% def debuff wasn't going to make any difference at all until i actually had some defence for it to subtract from.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you can have negative defence - at least as far as the effective soft cap of whatever gives the enemy a 95% chance ToHit you.

This post was spawned by the Must We Herd thread currently in progress, but I didn't wish to derail it any further.

There were a lot of interesting posts made in the thread, however, one struck me; Unthing's point that "Maybe people learn that they aren't that tough in the Hollows, so don't bother investing in defence/aggro stuff."

Bear in mind that everything I'm about to say is in reference to those who are playing a Tanker for the first time and are perhaps new to the game entirely, so please don't whinge about how you're amazing and can easily do things that I've claimed to be impossible.

It would seem that Tankers have something of an issue in the levels Pre-SO, at least for players new to the archetype. From the very beginning, blasters can blast, scrappers can scrap, defenders can defend and controllers can control; tankers, however, can only really scrap.

Tanking for a medium to large sized team simply isn't practical - or even possible in some cases - until your late teens. You lack the aggro management, usually the mez protection, and the damage mitigation capability to keep the aggro of 10 or so mobs and actually stay alive. Not to mention that you're unable to tank and attack at the same time without very rapidly running out of endurance.

What this often means is that by the time a new Tanker reaches Level 20, defensive toggles are seen as nothing more than a pointless waste of endurance. Now there have always been those who have looked upon toggles as such, even back in I3, but they at least had no excuse as their powers were noticeably effective from day one.

These same tankers never learn their true role because they aren't able to fill it during their early levels. The job of a tanker would appear to be to run in first, aggro everything and then die while the rest of the team attacks - not exactly the right message to be sending.

So, the question is, what can be done to try and overcome this problem? How can we help people to appreciate what a Tanker can be and what they can do if only they can overcome the difficulties of the first 15-20 levels? It'd be a shame to end up with a nation of scrankers, let's hope it doesn't happen.

Here you go, a sample build based on your power choices - I can't say I've had a great deal of experience with Energy Melee, but it seems about right to me:

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.20
http://www.honourableunited.org.uk/mhd.php

Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Energy Melee
Secondary Power Set: Energy Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Barrage -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(9), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 1: Kinetic Shield -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), DefBuff-I(3), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(9)
Level 2: Bone Smasher -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(17), Acc-I(40), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 4: Power Shield -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(5), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(11)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 8: Build Up -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 10: Entropy Shield -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11)
Level 12: Whirling Hands -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(13), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(15), Dmg-I(15), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I(A)
Level 16: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(19), Heal-I(19)
Level 20: Energy Cloak -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(21), DefBuff-I(21), DefBuff-I(23), DefBuff-I(25)
Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(23), EndMod-I(25)
Level 24: Total Focus -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(27), Acc-I(27), Dmg-I(37), Dmg-I(37), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 26: Aid Other -- IntRdx-I(A)
Level 28: Energy Drain -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29), RechRdx-I(29), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31), EndRdx-I(46)
Level 30: Aid Self -- IntRdx-I(A), Heal-I(31), Heal-I(33), Heal-I(33)
Level 32: Energy Transfer -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(33), Acc-I(34), Dmg-I(34), Dmg-I(34), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 35: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 38: Overload -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(40), Heal-I(40)
Level 41: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 44: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(45), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(45), ResDam-I(46)
Level 47: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), DefBuff-I(48), DefBuff-I(48), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 49: Gloom -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(50), Acc-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury



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</pre><hr />

I really wouldn't bother with Assault.

Don't bother with either of the passive RES powers unless you need them for IO Slotting (Such as the global +3 DEF from Steadfast Protection).

You'll want to slot Energy Cloak for Defence, I'd also suggest trying to slot it in earlier if you can, it makes a noticeable difference to your survivability.

You won't need to slot Overload for Defence as it will be capped from the start - it's much better to slot it with Heals as it will greatly boost your maximum HP.

You might also want to find a couple of extra slots for Health - the extra regen helps minimise any downtime.

These days, until you get SOs, your tank is little more resilient than any other AT; relying more on their extra HP and self heal than shields for survival.

Ice Armour probably has it easiest, because at least you can get full mez protection by Level 6, but you still have to deal with incoming damage and it can be difficult to say the least.

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, back to the dmg vs agro story. Are you some squishy scary blaster that is scared already 1 mob of 16 is attacking you?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's an even level minion, then no. If it's a +3 boss, then yes.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What I tend to focus on is that you are a Stone tank - You are there to take the damage better than anyone else; that’s your role in a team.

[/ QUOTE ]

and this, i guess, is where we fundamentally disagree. imo the primary role of a tank is not to "take the damage better than anyone else", it's to take, and keep aggro. i'd much rather team with a tank who dies taunting, than one who lets the aggro bounce off them but can survive anything you throw at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a small difference but a significant one. Yes, you are there to take damage, but only as part of the process of taking aggro.

I've said it before and I'll say it again - it doesn't matter how much damage you can take if the rest of your team ends up dead because you weren't holding the aggro.

[ QUOTE ]
That's the one!

Thanks Sinergy

Are these the only enhancements I can slot with Stone Amour &amp; Super Strength?

http://paragonwiki.com/Stone_Armor
http://paragonwiki.com/Super_Strength


[/ QUOTE ]

Those, plus any appropriate IO sets - see Mid's Hero Designer for details.

True, but that doesn't exactly discount it from the discussion as there's RES against every attack type.

Toxic attacks, as there is no such thing as Toxic Defence, so I suppose you could call them Untyped for the purposes of this discussion.

I rarely herd beyond a single spawn unless it's one of those rooms with lots of spawns clumped together, in which case it's usually safer to aggro all them in a controlled manner rather than having them attack at random while you're dealing with another group.

I haven't really herded since I4.

Personally I love it when I've got a team full of Storm defenders and Energy/ blasters - it gives you a real challenge when mobs are being knocked around left, right and centre.

[ QUOTE ]
AVs don't resist damage debuffs, and LR certainly hasn't anything near 90% S/L. Maybe 50% at best.

Your experiences don't match mine either, he never hits me (well, "5%") when I'm around 60-70% def.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, but it's not a matter of who does and doesn't - it's a side effect of the game mechanics by which Damage Debuffs are implemented.

Even assuming 50%, you're still looking at a 90% damage debuff only debuffing S/L damage by 45%, which would still mean that some of his attacks do over 2500 damage.

60-70% DEF is no better than 45% DEF from a ToHit point of view unless you're under the effect of Defence Debuffs.

Regardless, he will statistically hit you once every 20 attacks and even if he doesn't the streakbreaker will eventually kick in and force him to hit you anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tanking (and I wish I didn't have to keep saying this) is not about taking damage. Tanking is about taking aggro. The perfect counter-example of this are Granite-only Stone tanks who are repeatedly the last one standing against huge mobs because they're virtually unkillable, but they simply can't control the aggro so all their teammates die. It doesn't matter how much damage you can or can't take, the important thing is that you can hold the attention of the mobs so that the rest of your team can do their jobs without having to worry about getting one-shotted by something that got loose.

[/ QUOTE ]
And there we go again with the 'what is tanking' story. Granite cant keep agro, fire is squisy and inv is dull and boring, ice tanker pwnz all.

For the record a sonic def can cap fire and inv kinda on every element, making them non less then a Granite. Its the whole story of finger pointing. My Granite hits nearly 2 years lvl50, i know very well what i am capable of and if i am able to keep agro. And clearly if 1 team member cant handle a lost minion, its more his playstyle then my 'agro management'.

And thus, issue 10 for inv and fire tankers.. get a sonic and behold. (this is very well proven and tested to high degree +3 AV tanking). So yeah a sonic is needed, but isnt a rad or kin also needed for STF?

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't misunderstand me, I wasn't accusing Stone tanks of being useless - I simply used it as my example because it is the most common example of people thinking that simply being the last one standing makes you the best tank, whereas it's actually the case that having all of your team still standing makes you the best tank.

I do find it highly amusing that people now have the idea that Ice Tanks are "teh Pwnz" given their checkered history in the game - 6 issues ago, nobody in their right mind would have even considered rolling one. Time are a changing, I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
-Dam isn't very good, actually.

Foes resist damage debuffs to the same level as their resistance to that damage type. Recluse does mostly S/L and I'm guessing he's got pretty high S/L resists too.

Thus, if he's got a 90% S/L resist, then a 90% damage debuff will actually only debuff his S/L damage by 9%.


[/ QUOTE ]And that's without taking into account the AV debuff resistance, AND the fact that he's +4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, I'd forgotten how badly Damage Debuffs scale with level - though I've no idea what kind of scale the AV Debuff resists are.

-Dam isn't very good, actually.

Foes resist damage debuffs to the same level as their resistance to that damage type. Recluse does mostly S/L and I'm guessing he's got pretty high S/L resists too.

Thus, if he's got a 90% S/L resist, then a 90% damage debuff will actually only debuff his S/L damage by 9%.

+Resistance is *much* better than -Damage against tough mobs.