The_SiXKillA

I don't see "YES I KILLED YOU!" as negative, this is an invitation to light banther.

"Y00 SUXORZ COS I KILLED Y00 20 ITEMS!" is a bit annoying, but it's still not what I'm talking about.

I enjoy some lighthearted banther as the next person, it's when it's boarderlining harrassment the problem occurs, and I do realize it's hard to tell where the line goes, but that is the reason I feel there should be some code of conduct, and a moderator or two to enforce it.

Ok, Obot. I apologize.

But I don't feel it should be nessecary to roll a specific AT with a specific powerset just to avoid being slaughtered by every single stalker in the zone. Without /devices, a blaster will never-ever-ever-ever (everevereverever) stand a chance against a stalker with hide+stealth. I feel this is slightly unfair, as there is nothing we can slot, no powers we can take that makes up for not being able to see stalkers. I would MUCH prefer one-shotting instead of how it is now where there's no chance in hell I can even see the buggers.

While I agree with most things in your post Stalk_Obot,

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its the players who need to "adjust" to the AT now in my mind.

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This I just don't hold with. I've tried every trick that has been mentioned, and no matter how hard I try, I can't see stalkers with hide stacked with stealth. There's no way in heck. Before I respec'ed I had tactics, and this combined with IR-Goggles and two medium sized yellows still didn't allow me to see most stalkers. Even with CM most stalkers could saunter up to me and poke me, then que plactate and I was still none the wiser. Hide+Stealth, plactate, AS, very high defense, status protection, crit from hide, holds/immobs/disorients et cetera, more than decent scrappability and extremely short re-hide time is in my mind overpowered when compared with for instance blasters whose only weapon is damage. Blasters don't even get any defense powers aside from the lousy pool power defenses, and most of these don't stack with a travel power in the first place. Another hint that the stalker AT is overpowered you've already come with yourself: That any n00b with enough intelligence to pop a cd into the cd-rom is able to be highly successful as a stalker the first time they enter the PvP zones.

And it's not like I don't know what I'm talking about. Like I've said elsewhere, I have rolled a stalker and in one sitting I generated something in the vincinity of 50 rep. While this doesn't sound like much, it was done without stealth OR plactate in the first time I ever entered a pvp zone with said stalker. I was also lvl 22, and I was in Siren's.

But this wasn't intentionally an anti-stalker thread.

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Well, u cant expect a fair fight in the zones, nor can expect to be equalled numbered. Sometimes heroes outnumber villains and other times it's otherwise.

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LOL! Do you even read the posts?

EDIT:
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In short words, it's a game so dont get mad cuz of it

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Yes, it's a GAME, and I play it to have a good time, and my idea of a good time isn't getting [cencored] thrown in my face when it takes 8 ppl to kill me, neither is it to throw [cencored] in other ppls faces.

(lol. I had to self-cencor myself here. I expect the cencorship engine fried several posts back. )

Like I said. Bad behaviour breeds bad behaviour. If you can't accept this, then you shouldn't be able to accept "villains behaving like villains", because the argument is the same. I'm making a point, and you've not only missed the point, but underlined it. Several times.

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Villains are acting like villains imo, pvp has no rules and to win may require tactics (no matter how dirty) on both sides.

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I'm sorry for saying this, but "villains behaving like villains" is the most STUPID arguement in favour of acting like a-holes I ever hear. This is a GAME, and courtesy should be shown by and to both sides. This is a GAME, and so there SHOULD be rules and code of conduct. Having Player versus player with no rules is ONLY laziness from the devs, and nothing more whatsoever.

If your (I don't mean YOU specifically, just a general "you guys") idea of fun is to insult people and cause them grief, you should join a supporter club for football. Problem is, that people who think these things are fun are either children, or adults with serious personality problems and small you-know-what's.

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Its a pvp zone.

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Yes. PLAYER versus PLAYER. There is actual humans on the other side of the avatar that you insult, gank and grief. respecting other human beings should be a requirement for being allowed in a pvp zone, but alas, this isn't so.

Poor behaviour towards other people only breeds more poor behaviour, and this is in my opinion the reason why it's got so much worse since last time I was in siren's.

I say again. PvP zones in CoX should be moderated, and griefing should not be tolerated. Griefing ruins the playing experience for everyone except the person doing the griefing.

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And back to the Stalkers - just think of it as a final, pre-I7 fling

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You mean before they get their boost? Because I distinctly remember reading something from a redname about some boost or another that stalkers get in I7.

Ok, I'm going to assume you mean they will no longer be able to one-shot people, but to me this has never been a problem. it's the Plactate->follow-up that kills, and that problem is something that won't get looked upon.

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Trash-talking should be done in a funny and humorous way - telling people they suck or questioning their sexuality does not fall into this category (unless, of course, it's said in such a way as to be obviously not serious )

You wouldn't really want a PvP zone where no one was talking, would you?

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Trash-talk is one thing, blatant insulting is something different alltogether. And it is possible to talk to people without insulting or disrespecting them.

I'm taking this all as a lack of proper upbringing, and parents inability to teach their children proper respect for other human beings. Because if this is adults behaving like this, this world is going to hell in a handbasket. If adults behave like this, there is something seriously wrong with them.

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You are complaining about two things here, one, being outnumbered and two, trash-talking in broadcast.

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No... I'm complaining about -one- thing. The griefing and the name-calling from the villains was a result of them outnumbering the heroes. The part about being outnumbered is something that can't be helped, and if you look at the title of this thread it should be pretty clear to you that -that- isn't the problem. it's the behaviour of the players.

Outnumbering and killing people isn't ganking and griefing in itself, but when you add in name-calling, gloating, base-camping and general bad behaviour, it turns into ganking and griefing pretty fast. (it's pretty much in the actual WORD griefing. Giving people grief. it's self explanatory.)

The only thing I sort of frowned upon about being outnumbered this badly, was that 80% of the villains in the zone were stalkers. Stalkers are so overpowered they should be an Epic AT, and not something every new player can just pick off the shelf the second they've installed the game. And when there is twice as many stalkers as there are heroes in the zone, this IS indeed a PROBLEM and should be looked upon by the devs promptly.

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Let's all stop caring when PvP becomes pointless for one side. Then we can just empty the zone and pretend it doesn't exist! Brilliant.

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This is what I honestly hope will happen, because it will force the devs to come up with a solution to this PROBLEM.

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What you need is a guy who can lay down some ice patches or the like - big area, slip up or knock back effects tend to help a great deal. I've seen how one hero with access to this sort of stuff can really galvanise the rest in the face of superior numbers. It's a sight to see, it works very nicely to let you fight enemies in a co-ordinated way.

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Every single solution I hear to the stalker problem is specific sets or powers. People with these power(sets) isn't always redily available, and thus it's not a soulution at all.

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I think the main problem is the attitude,

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This is, as they say, hitting the nail on the head. Like I said, it's not the getting killed that bugs me, it's all the [censored] that came/comes with it. When you've been killed 14 times by the same four ppl, and then they start gloating and name-calling, the getting killed part does indeed become a problem. I'm not generally one to be talking about respect, but I honestly feel that other players should be respected in order to get a good game experience all around.

But the incredible lack of respect that comes from these n00bish stalkers is just getting way way out of hand. And you CAN be a noob stalker and still get kills by the handfull, because all it takes is to get stealth in addition to hide, and 75% of the opponents is not able to see you -no matter what they do-.

I'm not whining, I'm commenting on people being a-holes to other people.

It's the base-camping, gloating and namecalling that gets me in the end. it's not being killed. It's the being killed by the same eight people over and over and over, and it's not one out of the four, it's all eight at the same time.

In my opinion, this is griefing and ganking and extremely bad behaviour, and it ruins the pvp experience for the people who is subject to it.

I spent quite some time in Siren's last night on Defiant, as a hero. In the beginning the sides were pretty much the same numbers, the hero side being slightly outnumbered and consisting of a couple of scrappers, a tanker and a couple of blasters. We held our own pretty well, but the sheer number of stalkers made it very hard. There were at least as many stalkers as there were heroes combined, plus a small asortment of other villain AT's (iirc there were one dominator, a corruptor and a brute).

It is very hard to get anything done when every time you attack you are standing still long enough to be AS'ed, and every time you get AS'ed there's AT LEAST two stalkers doing it, so there is NO WAY you can survive, even as a scrapper. I say this was pretty evenly matched, because it was the most matched fighting that happened all night.

After an hour or so, the heroes numbers hadn't changed, a couple people leaving due to the severe number of stalkers, and a few new faces coming in, but the number of villains had increased drastically. At this point there were 5/6 heroes, 6/7 stalkers, three MM's, a couple of dominators, corruptors and brutes. The hero side being horribly outnumbered we were pressed back into the base, with the entire cadre of villains hanging around within a couple hundred meters of the hero base. Every time we tried to break out of the base we got summarily ganked by every single villain in the zone, everyone of them wanting to throw a punch at the heroes. This is in my opinion bad enough conduct in it's own right, but then the gloating and the bragging started, the villains obviously thinking themselves teh ubar PvP'ers for bein able to keep us in the base. After a death there would be several villains gloating over the kill and standing around dancing on the corpses.

after a while, a couple of us heroes would try sneaking out and falling on the villains from behind with stealth and/or invis running, but as the stalkers get their +perception skills there were NO WAY we could have a hope in hell of surprising them. It was so bad after a while, when I stopped to attack a seemingly lonesome villain, I had FOUR [4] stalkers surrounding me in the AS position. Now it goes without saying that me being a blaster, only one or maybe if I got lucky, two of the stalkers actually got in their AS before I was dead.

And still the villains kept up the gloating, name-calling and "corpse-dancing". Is it really considered a good kill when 5 people manage to take down a single blaster? It sure seems like it, because the only villain in the whole zone that didn't participate in this was a corruptor called Dearch. Dearch, I salute you for your honor in PvP, cos there sure as [censored] isn't any other villains showing any.

And I am not exaggerating when I say there was between six and eight stalkers in the zone at the time. In the end, this was TWICE the number of heroes COMBINED. Now, the question I have is, if the stalkers are so lousy as all the people who play stalkers want us to believe, why the hell are there so many of them? The only answer I can come up with is that they ARE INFACT massively overpowered, and thus every NOOB villain is going to choose one, because they are so incredibly easy to get kills with.

Anyways, why is it generally accepted that people behave like spoiled children? Why is ganking accepted? What the hell has happened to common courtesy? Bad behaviour in PvP seems like the norm, and not the exception. Why isn't there moderators in the pvp zones when there OBVIOUSLY should be?

I used to pvp a lot, but when the new players found out how easy PvP becomes once they roll a stalker, the stalker population in the pvp zones exploded, and most of them being in my opinion BAD PEOPLE, I had no choice but to stop pvp'ing. I suffered severe withdrawals for a long long time, and finally this week I gave in and ventured into siren's again, only to discover that the problem isn't remedied, but has increased exponentially.

Ok. This probably doesn't happen every night, but it has happened three out of five nights I've been in there this week alone.

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I'm at work and that doesnt require a brain

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Arent you the safety officer in a nuclear power plant though?

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This would explain it, indeed.

I'll do my very best to level Sgt. Winter the last 2 lvl's.

Sounds like a ton o fun.

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There needs to be something to discourage them from simply killing the same squishies time and time again - perhaps a travel power suppression for x seconds after they've used AS.

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This is perhaps one of the best solutions to the stalker problem that I've seen on these boards.

And to Qi: I'm sorry if it seemed like I was coming off too harsh on you. I was just afraid I had lost my only 'ally' in the stalker discussions.

I think the whole concept of the stalker is pretty silly. The fact that if you don't see the stalker your dead, and if you DO see the stalker HE's dead is just stupid and doesn't fit in with CoX at all. There's NO gray area to vision, if you can see someone, then you can, indeed, see them. and if you can't see them, well then... uh... you... can't.. bleh.

Remove the stalker AT entirely, or give them some other signature than not being seen.

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Having a team of heroes camping on top of the crates in the villain base, teleporting hospital leavers up there straight into insta-mez and two-hit-kills

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Well. the reason for this isnt that heroes are so much more powerful than villains, it's that the second one of the sides get an advantage, the other side goes bolting back to the base like there's no tomorrow. After this happens, it's no problemo whatsoever to keep the base under siege and just squash the enemy one by one. Also, if there was a whole team there, then two hit kills isn't that weird, as you have buffs and debuffs and everything, also, it's more than likely that it just looks like a two hit kill as there are so many beating your monkey.

Also, about stalkers not being overpowered... I made a stalker some time ago, and I got it to lvl 24 (I don't have stealth), and still I was flattening lvl 30+ heroes (and regen scrappers) like I was driving a steamroller. I ended up relogging my blaster, because there was hardly no challenge at all, even when we (the villains) were outnumbered 2 to 1. The only thing that even resembled a challenge was to be patient and wait for a hero to stray out of the protective range of the defenders.

Just for reference, there were around 4-5 villains of most AT's, and there were a full team of heroes with at least one defender, a regen scrapper and an asortment of other at's and powersets. Only the regen scrapper gave me some pause from time to time, but I got him at least as many times as the heroes got me.

What I find a bit strange with your 'revalation' Qi, is that you take what happened to you as the norm, while it is often the exception, not the rule. Also, you clearly have more experience playing as a hero, and you can't expect to hop into the oposite side and be just as effective as you are when playing your usual toons. Also, the fact that the villain base was under siege by a whole team of heroes tells me that the fight was a tad off balance in the first place.

There are plenty of corruptors I haven't been able to defeat in a whole attack-cycle even with BU on my nrg/nrg blaster. I'll admit that there are more often where I only need one built up attack-cycle to take a corruptor down, but if you think about this, it should tell you something. What's that, you say? That the inexperienced are the majority, and they will go down pretty fast, while the experienced minority can put up a decent fight, pretty much whoever they fight against.

Now, the same COULD have been said about blasters VS. stalkers, but here there is another factor coming into play, and that is the fact that 95% of stalkers can two-shot 95% of all blasters, and this doesn't give the blaster a chance to fight back, so experience don't come into play. Why? Because the only thing that can prevent two-shotting is the ability to see the stalker, and apart from /devices, no blasters will ever be able to see a stalker without the help of a leadership defender.

And preventing 1-shotting from AS isn't going to solve anything, because 1-shotting from AS happens so rarely in the first place. it's Plactate that is the problem because with it a stalker can 2-shot a squishy -every single time- (unless you have a heal, and are REALLY quick to click it.)

I say, give stalkers EITHER hide OR plactate. THEN they wouldn't be overpowered. Giving stalkers every trick in the book is like begging for a ganker AT. The only thing stalkers doesn't have is loads and loads of hp, and aside from this they have something from every other AT in the game PLUS hide AND plactate AND an insane attack. Great. Just wreck PvP, will ya?

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No nose? How does he smell!??

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TERRIBLE!!!! LOLLMAOROLFWOOT

Thank you im here all night.

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Dude! Don't use up all your material on the forums!

Wow (eeek! He said Wow!). Is this thread still going? I'm happy as a ferret, cos that means I'm not the only one with a problem with stalkers.

Anyways. There's been some pretty good arguments from both "sides" since I last checked in, and the conclution I have come to is that the stalker AT doesn't fit this type of gameplay at all. I say again; At all.

Considering that the Hero AT's were created maybe three and a half to four years ago, and the villain AT's were created something like three years later (or so), it's not surprising that the Heroes are lagging behind in respect to fresh and innovative tricks. Just look at the inherent powers for Villains, then look at the inherent powers for Heroes. It's quite clear (to me at least), that the heroes of Paragon City has been forgotten by the gods (read; devs), and that villains is the new black.

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In the case of finding a solution to stalkers, its often earning another respec, then adding in another three or four powers to help you to merely spot them, and even then normally needing stalker-detector teammates. xP

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Yup.

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Unfortunately, some people dont churn out level 30's every other weekend. Some people level fast, some people level at the pace of.. y'know.. just a mere mortal. Getting into SC, only to find you cant do jack when faced with a stalker, would you honestly decide :
"I know! I'll just start a new toon from scratch JUST to fight stalkers! See you in a-hunred-and-bajillion months! "

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Too true.

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Its.. licking the screen..

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And it's eyes is out of synch! It's crazy, I tell ya!

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The problem for me is to break the stalker AT all you need to do is take one power from the leadership pool. So thats taking one less power in exchange for having the potential to see all stalkers. Too me that sounds like a destroying an AT. Look at it this way, would you be happy if I could lose an attack for a power that would make me resistant to holds or give me super strength defence?

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I'm not talking about super strength effects, but yes. But you can't have more than four power pools, so you would spend one power pool to get stronger defence or a greater resistance to holds, that's ok by me.

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Since the introduction of ED many people have lots of slots free. I even know some people that still 6 slot (same enhancement type) because they cant see anywhere else to really put them. Putting enhancable perception enhancements into tactics is thus not really much of a sacrifice.

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This is true, but the +perception effect is only secondary in Tactics, the real bonus of that power is in +acc, plus the power is a huge end drain, so I'll have to watch what I slot it with. Say I six slot it, and I have two of each of the three types. I don't have optimal perception, so I won't be able to see the stalkers having 2-3 slotted their hide with stealth enhancements.

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I can see where you are trying to go but personally I dont think that would work (currently with how things are). I wouldn't know if having a greater power pool choice would be a good thing or a bad thing. One benefit would be more diverse characters but deciding on what you are going to miss out on might be a very hard decision.

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Yes, it's supposed to be a hard dicision. That's why even fewer ppl will choose tactics than those that do now.

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Often said but bearing in mind how few of the server population actually posts on the boards and even then there isn't a consensus. I would love to know where you get the idea that Stalkers are the most hated. We all know you hate them, but isn't what you are saying.

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Just look at the amount of stalker threads there are. And I haven't even started one for months.

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Unlike most other ATs you can at least get powers that help against them, take holds for instance, they drop all your toggles, and very few of us have any way of reducing the effect. +Perception can at least be taken from a power pool. Holds can only be broken from inspirations.

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That's what I mean. The secondary effect of powerpool buffs should be bigger. like the mez protection from acrobatics (or whatever it is, or give it mez protection), defence buff from combat jumping hover and stealth, whatever it is you get from tough and weave. as well as having the hide power enhanceable for stealth.

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Well obviously with your uberness, you no problem hitting through PFF/Bubbles, Elude, MoG, Storm, Telekinesis and a range of other powers, that either slow you, keep you away or in other ways prevent you from killing the person. The rest of don't try and solo the annoying storm controllers we get a team.

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Now you'r just pretending. right? If I can see the opponent, and he isn't able to one/two hit kill me, then then game is still on. With a stalker, they disappear if you don't hit them for a short while, and once that happens your in the hosp before you know it. And really, I don't mind the one hit kills, OR the two hit ones. I just want to be able to prevent it from happening from every stalker who can pick the stealth powerpool. because that's ALL they need to be completely impervious to my elite perception skillz. That means every stalker out there with an ounce of inteligence.

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Yet for me to face alot of the other 'non-overpowered' ATs I'm expected to run perma breakfree?

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With a stronger effect from Acrobatics you wouldn't need so many breakfrees, but probably some in case you meet someone who's slotted their powers properly.

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So why bother?

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Your really not paying attention, are you? j/k
With stronger effect on the pool power buffs, and more to choose from, you'll get the sense that you are sacrificing something in order to get something else. That way only people who want's to be good at hunting stalkers will pick the leadership pool, slot that right, and stand a greater chance of spotting stalkers. and since I didn't pick the SJ pool so I got Acrobatics, I'm very voulnerable to mez. Or I don't have any defence because I haven't got CJ hover or Stealth. Then you make up some more, and you got a diverse system, that's flexible and makes truely unique characters.

Sorry. this should be in the suggestions forum, but whatever.

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And how does having to it so everyone can see stalkers quite easily not break that AT. There are ways of stopping stalkers and having it so everyone can see one is just stupid. There ability to use Hide is what makes stalkers and by ripping this from a stalker is breaking the AT.

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Everyone doesn't take the leadership pool power. In fact, very few does. If you take it, you sacrifice something else to get those powers. I've had several other suggestions which, same as this one, doesn't break the AT. Also, if you make the stealth part of Hide enhancable, stalkers don't have to choose the concealment pool to get an advantage. Also, having to spend slots on both End reduc and perception on tactics makes it nessecary to sacrifice even more to be able to see stalkers. This makes it possible for those who WANT to sacrifice something to become "stalker-hunters". They lose one advantage over someone to gain an advantage over someone else.

Considering all the tools in the stalker powersets I think this is only fair, as there are no other ATs with that many tricks up their sleeve.

Maybe it could be made up for by making some new pool power sets. I think it's high time for this anyway. With more powerpools to choose from, even fewer people will get the Leadership pool.

This isn't a nerf to stalkers, it's another way of getting the uber stealth power. The drawback is that it's possible for any AT/powerset combo to be able to spot stalkers.

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That last comment is the problem. No one AT is equal (although some are more better placed than others). I read/listen to all these talks about stalkers being overpowered but I play other villain ATs and feel that it is just sour grapes. I would love for my corruptor or dom to have a fair chance but they dont. Easily taken out the game, but I just get on with it. I really wish everyone else would to. If want to get anywhere then you do have to team. If i dont want to be held all the time I need someone who can break holds. Trust me when I say you wont get a fair fight. There are lots of miss matches and you cannot create a build to do anything about it. You can however create a team which will help reduce the imbalance and help raise your chances.

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1) The fact that there's no other AT's in the game that is more hated, and for good reasons, should be a warning sign.
2) There's no other AT's in the game that REQUIRES one of a select (very) few powersets to be countered.
3) There's no other AT's in the game that don't allow the 'victim' a chance to fight back.
4) The fact that you need a TEAM to take out ONE stalker tells me that stalkers are overpowered.

I've gotten killed by every villain AT there are, but none as often as stalkers. I've killed every villain AT there are, but none as rarely as stalkers. I've tried every tactic I can come up with, and many I've got here on the forums, and the fact remains that since I can't see the stalker untill I'm already dead, there's nothing I can do. apart from running three medium inspirations continually, and having to zone out every 10 minutes to buy more yellows. This, in my opinion is not a viable tactic.

My solution would be to have Hide exclusive from other stealth powers, have Hide Enhancers to enhance the hide power AND have perception enhancers to go in Tactics. This would give everyone a fair fight, and wouldn't in the least ruin the stalker AT.

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Stalkers are villians, villians are nasty and use nasty tricks to kill you.

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This is a game, and as a game, it should be balanced for all the players. And using the excuse "I'm a villain, so I'm allowed to be unfair" gets old real fast.

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that would just make a hard fight but like i said nobody said fighting villians would be easy.

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We're not looking for an easy fight, we're looking for a FAIR fight.

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As they are if you want to do serious PvP you need to tie some powers into your build aimed at stalker spotting.

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I got all the powers I can get that will give me +perception on my blaster, and I'm still WAY WAY WAY short of seeing a stalker with hide+stealth. I've sacrificed a bunch of things, just so I was supposed to be able to spot stalkers (according to the ppl on the forums), but still it isn't enough.

Give everyone a fighting chance, I dunno about the rest of these ppl, but that's all I'm asking.

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Six whats with the agressivness mate? Chill out a lil.

If you cant see a stalker with IR Goggles-The Leadership Pool-etc. I suggest you turn your monitor brightness up.

K

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The hidden ones I can see, I can see perfectly well.
Not aggressive, just pointing things out. Isn't it allowed to make a strong argument? Anyways, I wish I didn't bother with this, because I have stopped PvPing already. I don't expect anyone to grieve over this, but a couple of villains should breathe a sigh of relief. j/k

Anyway, I have fun with my stalker PvE when I can find a decent team. Don't plan to bring it to PvP, but don't really understand the "weak in PvE" point.

Ok, I'm back, and I just read my previous post.
While I mean everything I said in there, I do NOT mean that every stalker out there is a n00b, ganker or coward. I mean MANY are, but then again it's an easy AT to be merely good at. To excell at it you need some skill, just like every other AT. But the Stalker AT is so incredibly easy to misuse. I wouldn't have anything against the stalker AT if just all the other AT's were as complete as the stalkers.

Yes, I do indeed believe that the Stalker AT is the ONLY AT in the game that's actually a COMPLETE archtype. it seems to me that the Stalker and MM AT's are the only two AT's that's got a thorough evaluation and the only ones that is completely thought through. In fact, I think NONE of the hero AT's are even remotely complete. They worked when there was only CoH, but now that CoV is out with it's more thought through AT's the CoH AT's need a revamp.

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2. We aint that hot in PvE folks, sorry to break it too you. I think we have the least fun out of every at in PvE. Endless glowie missions or stealthing to the boss to kill him? Not that fun to me.

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Why on earth do you want to solo? This is a MULTIPLAYER game designed with TEAMS in mind, and every change the devs make just further supports this. If you want to solo, you should play halflife or something like it.

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4. I think its Quilty who brought up the Stalker running comment. I am sorry are you having a laugh? Would you honestly expect a Blaster to stay still if he doesnt kill you? Mate if we did that we would be wiped on the floor.

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If this was actual real life and you only had one of them, I'd understand your urge to be running off like a headless chicken if your OHK attack failed, but this is a GAME and you have ENDLESS lives, and dying from another players hand gives NO PUNISHMENT. If a player is about to kill me then I know I've been dealt a bad hand, or the player is just plain better than me, and in either case he deserves the kill. I don't run like a coward. Ever. I might move 10 meters if I get AS'ed, but I stay the fight. Stalkers however jumps on the next charter plane and skips the country if their AS fails. It would look pretty silly if one team ran off the field the minute they were 4 goals under in a football match.

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5. Now killing Stalkers is fun and easy. Al you need to do is see them and hit em, maybe try a slow or some -movement power. I hear many people screaming "But Stalkers have hide how can we see them?!11" Its not that difficult. Find a guy with the leadership pool, pop yellow inspirations, find a defender with CM, buy the temp power IR Goggles when the zone is yours, Roll SR, Stay near someone with a toggle PBAoE,

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Take my case as an en/en blaster. To be able to see a single stalker with hide+stealth/grant invis I need tactics from a defender, IR Goggles and my own tactics on top of that plus maybe a yellow or two. No matter what I do, I'll NEVER be able to spot a hide+stealth stalker on my own (aside from having a tray full of large yellows and popping two every time the effect of the last two wears off, but lets face it, this isn't an option.) This means that ALL stalkers have the edge over me NO MATTER WHAT I DO, because I can't see them untill they AS me, and if I don't die from the AS, I still can't fight back, because THEN they plactate me and either kill me on their next strike which will give them critical NO MATTER WHAT, or they've teleported away and are hidden again within 10 seconds.

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6. Do more offensive/idiot type players play Stalkers?

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Yes. Not all, but gankers WILL choose the stalker AT for reasons I have said earlier.

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A lot of good quality players play the Stalker AT.

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In this, you won't get an argument from me, but this in itself isn't an argument for or against anything discussed here.

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Just before I leave I wish to reinforce a comment I made earlier.

So the stalker doesnt kill you and thus runs.

Um yeah and?

So stalkers have Hide I cant ever see them they are cowardly.

Um yeah and?

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What point exactly does this reinforce? That Stalkers are cowards? Yes. That no stalker will stand and fight? Yes. That the stalker AT isn't overpowered? No. That stalkers aren't used for ganking? No.

I wish I had more time to explain, but I need to go.