TheMESS

Maybe we should al petition maestro or something as they seem to be the only lot that think this wonderful new lvl of security is necessary.

(a wonderful lvl of security that didn't stop 3 people i know getting there cards cloned at teh local shell i mite add)

No he just proved that they used to be easier and were made harder in i3 and then AVs and GMs were made even harder still that bit that was rolled back was the ridiculus regen some mobs had to the point that they could not be taken down without a lot of dedicated -regen

and I'm sorry but giving a mob or anything for that matter so much regen that it cant be taken down is

a) not fun
b) a waste of time

and you've yet to tell us when this making the mobs easyer actually happened so far you have not given one example.

No the Universal Enhancement slots were slots that would be applied to your character as opposed to your individual powers then what was placed in these slots would effect all your powers so if you slotted a UE slot wit damage, the damage of all your attacks would rise.

Oh i had forgotten about the purple patch them were the days

I suppose also the change to how defence works was a i kind of Mob nerf but to be fair without it most defence based sets were pretty iffy and certainly weaker than there resistance and regen based counterparts.

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There once was a time when mobs used to be much harder than they are now.

[/ QUOTE ]When was that? Back before ED when tanks could herd an entire map so the rest of the team could blast then to shreds by the door? They certainly haven't changed the power level of standard mobs since issue 6 and I doubt that they have been made easier before then. I certainly haven't found any patch notes that say as much.
Of course if you have some solid proof that what you say is true (not: "a SG mate said...") then maybe you would have a point.

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I've been largely staying out of this thread (and its "Nerf SS/WP!" twin) because trying to pin down Moghedien on an argument is like trying to nail jelly to the wall.

Get close to something that'd force him to concede he was wrong on some specific and he'll shoot off at a tangent, throw something else that's clearly incorrect in (or at best unprovable - e.g. SS/WP "datamining", dxp weekend dual boxing farmers, CoX is easier than other MMOs, only Ill/Rad controllers can solo GMs, mobs used to be much harder...), and off things go in the new direction.

It's impressive in a way, and very entertaining to read, but in the interests of my blood pressure I'll mostly continue to lurk.

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Personally im taking it as a new sport beats doing nothing at work for the next 4 hours.

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I very much doubt they were less powerful than they are now.

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At least on this one you are prolly alone.....
Denying chars got stronger with sets leads to the conclusion you never played the game with sets sry.
Or you just disagree without thinking, just because you love to disaagree.


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except sets were part of the ED re balancing characters were only made drastically weaker once and that's when ED was applied before ED most if not all characters were pretty dam god like trollers would frequently have multiple pets tankers could take the damage of the entire map blasters could nuke almost the entire maps spawn and scrappers especially regen ones were like a drugged up Jason at a summer camp ED plus a few other tweaks drastically put a end to much of this and then sets counter balanced it but they did not raise us back to the heights we once soared at.

actually i think you'll find most if not all changes to the game do appear in patch notes even changes made during beta are more than likely in patch notes (tho you probably cant find them out with NCsoft)

Also can you tell us when these changes in mob power lvls happened?

Happy cake day Khorak

I've been playing for the best part of 4 years and still find certain missions a challenge both solo and as part of a team

A few examples.

the Croatoa arcs

These i still find a lot of fun to do and the Defeat all Tuatha in sewers with its roving groups of Tuanmtha can be a real challenge of a full 8 man team but at the same time.

Rikti War Zone

again i love these missions not because there anything different really than the standard missions but the later missions when you fight the vanguard can be a real pain the "Trap the Renegades" mission being one of my favorite i still remember the first time i did the mission i was convinced it was bugged with not a mob to be seen then it was Ambush, Ambush, Ambush much fun.

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Must go and build a SS/WP Brute to see what the fuss is all about

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Been thinking this my self i clearly did something wrong with my first attempted SS/WP so could some one post up one of these uber SS/WP builds?

cheers

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Since it's easy for teamed brutes to reach the damage cap with a few kinetics around damage buffs from rage are fairly irrelavant unless soloing.

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Cause there are always a "few" kinetics in a team.....
To say Rage is irrelevant in a team is just absurd.

Does anyone disagree that Rage is the best buff of all brute primaries ?


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Yes i do i like blinding faint at just 12seconds recharge it fits lovely into most attack chains and its different from the normal click build ups.

I also really like soul drain admittedly out the box it has a long recharge but its a great fight opener when your low on fury as it'll boost your damage right up and provided you can keep rolling fury will keep your damage high

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Does anyone disagree that Footstomp is the best aoe of all brute primaries?


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again i disagree i do like foot stomp as a power tho i think I'm more attached to the animation than the actual power but for over all worlds best brute AoE i have to give the award to Lightning Rod as it looks cool, dose excellent damage, knocks them on there [censored] and best of all lets me move between groups that much quicker.

also shield charge will probably take foot stomps second place purley on cool grounds when i eventually get it.

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Does anyone disagree that KoB is one of the best ST atackks with great secondary effects of all brute prmiaries ?


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again i find my self in disagreement KoB is a great attack ill give you that but there are many others i like just the same if not more

I like midnight grasp its maybe not uber but i like it at least the same as KoB

i like vengeful slice again at least as much a KoB purley cause it looks cool

then there's good old chain induction so what if its less damage than KoB i still think its a better power.

there's also total focus brill attack animations a bit slow but it dose lovely damage and leaves most opponents stunned

energy transfer same as TF plus i like the animation (tho again seems a bit slow)

Incinerate another power i love just as much if not more than KoB nothing better than seeing a fake nem pull the impenetrable force field trick then fall over because the DoT has finished him off

Both stone Mallet powers i love them way more than KoB

I'M also finding a lot of love for clobber from war mace nice damage good chance of stun and no stupid animation.
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If you disagree, show me where i am wrong pls

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i cant show you where your wrong as a large chunk of the decision is subjective some people like certain things more than others however i think the numbers i posted earlier show that LR is at least on the same lvl as FS for utility and power.

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I dont think most players agree with the devs that the aoes of various brute primaries have been cut down in range and radius.

Why nerf the radius of medicore attacks while leaving the best pbaoe with the biggest radius : Footstomp , untouched ?

Maybe someone can explain to me why those aoes with small radius to start with and no secondary effects to speak of needed nerfing while Footstomp seems to be ok for the devs ?

All in patch notes of today.

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Well maybe its because foot stomps a teir9 and there for considered a bit special?

i know lets compare it to another AoE tier 9

Foot stomp Lightning Rod win
end cost 18.5 13.5 LR
recharge 20s 90s FS
range 0 60 LR
cast 2.1s 2.57 FS
accuracy 75% 75% -
duration 13.5 4s FS
radius 15 20 LR
KB 0.67(tgt) 0.64 (tgt) FS
taunt 13.5 (tgt) 0 FS
damage 59.2 (smashing) 133.5 (energy) LR
teleport 0 1 LR

so which is better we can ignore the taunt you would think on one hand you have foot stomp which has a quick recharge and a quick cast time so can be used several time in a fight on the other hand you have lightning rod which has a marginally longer cast time and a recharge 3 times as long as foot stomp but you can use it from range effectively allowing you to negate a alpha strike something foot stomp dose not do as you must be within the mob to use it.

also lightning rod dose 133.5 energy damage compared to 59.2 that smashing dose so not only dose lightning rod do double the damage of foot stomp its also less resisted so more of its going to get thru.

so one really is no better than the other in my opinion both have advantages as well as disadvantages.

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You forget to include Rage in Footstomp damg didnt you ? :-)
Or double stacked rage, which isnt really hard to achieve at least for several seconds without spending billions of inf on the char.

What i really dont understand is , how ppl can actually deny that SS/Wp is performing better than any other brute combos in almost every situation.....

Show me a char WITHOUT bilions spent on sets, who can farm maps or kill 8 player spawns with almost no risk in a very short time solo.
While dealing St damg that is on par with sets that have no aoes and rely on ST mostly.

But i suppose the 15 ss/WP out of 20 brutes in Gv yesterday evening just roll this combo cause it looks cool :-)

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that would be because i was comparing one tier 9 AOE power to another tier 9 AOE power

What i was not doing was comparing 1 tier 9 power to a tier 9 power that's affected by the sets version of build up

of course if i was doing a comparison to AOE potential between the 2 sets including there versions of build up elec would win hands down for me as it includes 2 AoE damage powers a cone damage power and chain induction with its special jump ability so lots more AOE potential than SS singular AOE damage power.

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balance is needed yes i dont think you'll get a argument there but to use the SS/WP brute as a example you cant just balance it so this combination is less powerfull what you must do is balance SS and balance WP independantly of each other because they can be paired with more than just each other the same go's for fire control and kinetics they may work well togeather (some would say to well)but hows about as indevidual sets?

If you look at them as indevidual sets fire is actually pretty low in the control stakes so perhaps it should be buffed?

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Again, it is entirey possible to target specific combinations with minimal impact on the constituent sets.

Bearing in mind I am forbiden to call for nerfs to specific sets, so choosing the excellent and balance-challenged SS/WP purely at random, one could suggest, for instance, that Rage crash was included a cancellation of all +regen and +recovery. Whist this would have a small effect on SS, it would specifically target SS/WP the hardest.

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Now see i can tell you've not really thought about your sulution lets say they impliment this idea and a rage crash would zero regen and recovery.

that would cancel out health and stamina for every user of SS when they used rage so endurance heavy sets could well find them selves struggling to maintain there attacks and or shields end result lots of unhappy SS users.

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I dont think most players agree with the devs that the aoes of various brute primaries have been cut down in range and radius.

Why nerf the radius of medicore attacks while leaving the best pbaoe with the biggest radius : Footstomp , untouched ?

Maybe someone can explain to me why those aoes with small radius to start with and no secondary effects to speak of needed nerfing while Footstomp seems to be ok for the devs ?

All in patch notes of today.

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Well maybe its because foot stomps a teir9 and there for considered a bit special?

i know lets compare it to another AoE tier 9

Foot stomp Lightning Rod win
end cost 18.5 13.5 LR
recharge 20s 90s FS
range 0 60 LR
cast 2.1s 2.57 FS
accuracy 75% 75% -
duration 13.5 4s FS
radius 15 20 LR
KB 0.67(tgt) 0.64 (tgt) FS
taunt 13.5 (tgt) 0 FS
damage 59.2 (smashing) 133.5 (energy) LR
teleport 0 1 LR

so which is better we can ignore the taunt you would think on one hand you have foot stomp which has a quick recharge and a quick cast time so can be used several time in a fight on the other hand you have lightning rod which has a marginally longer cast time and a recharge 3 times as long as foot stomp but you can use it from range effectively allowing you to negate a alpha strike something foot stomp dose not do as you must be within the mob to use it.

also lightning rod dose 133.5 energy damage compared to 59.2 that smashing dose so not only dose lightning rod do double the damage of foot stomp its also less resisted so more of its going to get thru.

so one really is no better than the other in my opinion both have advantages as well as disadvantages.

your right how could i have been so blind lets just scrapped power selection and leave it to the server it will pick whichever set doesn't have the correct lvl of representation and assign you the sets.

We could even take it a step further and allow the server to pick which AT we roll as well.

balance is needed yes i dont think you'll get a argument there but to use the SS/WP brute as a example you cant just balance it so this combination is less powerfull what you must do is balance SS and balance WP independantly of each other because they can be paired with more than just each other the same go's for fire control and kinetics they may work well togeather (some would say to well)but hows about as indevidual sets?

If you look at them as indevidual sets fire is actually pretty low in the control stakes so perhaps it should be buffed?

My thanks to thorny and the others who replyed to this before i got a chance but i figure i should awser it as well

While admittedly my post was a late night rant at your apparent inability to see how the Nerf you want to see implemented would affect more than just a single combination of powers lets look at some of my requests.

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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you want me to re roll my toon your kidding right? please tell me your kidding i rolled my DB/WP the day the 2 sets went live and I've made it to 26 you want me to throw away all that time spent on the toon the badges he's errand the inf he's earned any inventions he has?

and why because you see SS/WP as being over powered get a grip your clearly off your rocker and out your mind i don't even have SS i have duel blades a set that when paired with willpower works well it doesnt make me a god it doesnt make me a wet paper bag it makes a good well rounded toon that i like to play and you want to Nerf it because the secondary I've picked happens to work even better with a primary i discounted because it didn't match my idea.

before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have


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This would seem a very important thing to do how else can you claim SS is over powered if you have not compared it to all the other brute primaries?

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now do the same for the secondary


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Again you cant claim one secondary is better than another without first knowing what all the secondary do


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now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc



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If you don’t compare every possible combination of primary and secondary you cant possibly claim one specific combination is flawed

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then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools


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Again with all the possible combinations of power pools that can be taken how can you know which combination is truly over powered you claim ss/wp is overpowered but is that ss/wp takeing pool powers and which ones is it hasten that makes it to powerful is it the extra resistance and defence from the fighting pool these are all factors and must be considered.

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now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs


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You must do this most alts see a fair jump in power when switching from TOs to DOs to SOs and then top range IOs and that’s only exchanging like for like there’s also the consideration that as the enhancement values get better you can perhaps save a slot on certain powers thus allowing you to slot something else and increasing your power else where so you see you may say oh nerf power X but power X may only become truly power full after being slotted with IOs or even specific sets why should all users of that power suffer because very specific slotting on a specific build of character allows that power to over perform..

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right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.


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How can you compare things in a vacuum this is a MMO there for there’s a fair to even chance that your going to team at some point teaming can drastically change the performance of a character

take a stone armour brute there they have good defence and good regen out with granite but suffer from being slow within granit they have good resistance, defence and regen but are even slower and suffer a damage debuff but team them with a kinetics and the biggest disadvantage (the speed) is gone

or fire armour good lvl of resistance good heal and has more than likely picked up some form of KB protection but they still have a rather large hole in that they lacj defence however team with a ice or forcefeild user and you gain defence

I could go on and cover every armour type but I think my point is clear teaming with just one other player can change your toon to the point that if you team with a specific person or group regularly you may alter your build to compliment each other.

So yes you must know how each set performs in a team environment before calling nerf.

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Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.

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You do know yourself most of your your requests are just plain lol..and wont proove anything at all...

Its more than enough to compare the primaries without any enh at all to see which sets perform better and you know it.
Maybe what a maxed recharge build can do, but thats it


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I think I’ve just explained why comparing such limited information dosent give you the full picture

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Btw if you rolled Db/Wp as soon as it came out and now its only 26 you either dont like playing it and theres no reason to be upset about changes or you dont play much at all.
Either way 26 lvls since DB/Wp was introduced really means you didnt spent much time at all playing that toon :-)

Infamy can be transfered, as can recipes and sets.....
Many other sets have been nerfed and or buffed over time and ppl learned either to adapt or rolled a new char, simple as that.

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You assume a lot I don’t play for large amounts of time in one sitting and I have several alts which I move between are you suggesting that because I did not immediately level my DB/WP to 50 before the next issue that it’s worthless? I have chosen to saunter thru the levels and work between my many alts am I playing the game wrong? If so it would have been nice if some one in the last 4 years had pointed out that I should roll a character and level them as quickly as possible before moving on to the next I would have saved so much money I would have probably never opened that second account or purchased all those extra slots why oh why do the Devs provide me means to roll more than one character at a tome clearly a new slot should only unlock when you get to 50???

There for I humbly suggest the following

All slots on accounts should be locked (unless the contain a lvl 50) bar 1 this will be the accounts highest non 50 character when this character reaches 50 or is deleted then the next highest character will open up and be playable if there is no more characters the player may create a new character I the have a empty slot or they may purchase some more slots

Also you should only be able to have one CoH account and appropriate checks should be carried out by the billing department where there are 2 or more CoH accounts owned by the player the extra accounts will be deleted and only the oldest account will remain (the player will receive no compensation as its important to be fair)

There that should solve the problem of people taking to long to lvl and making there characters worthless

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that's all fine and good congrats you've solved the problem of ss/wp now fix my DB/WP as his damage has dropped and that recharge debuff has made my combos harder to pull off

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I notice that the pro nerfs haven't answered this

Quote from The Mess but I'd be in the same boat.

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Roll another secondary ?
Learn to deal with drawbacks ?

if you were /da you would have insane end probs and medicore resists+ kb hole
if ou were fire you would have no psi res at all, no kb prot and no real immob protection
if you were elec you would not have a heal and mezz prot only working when grounded
if you were EA ... oh well :-)
if you were Stone you would have the same problem.
If stone gets major drawbacks for beeing very survivable, then WP with no abvious holes should have drawbacks too.

Every set should have its weak spots that compensate for its strenghts, and as far as i can see every secondary got drawbacks apart from WP.

What i dont understand is, why ppl always want sets that are excellent in every aspect without any weak spots.

At least for me, running around as a demigod without any challenge in game is not much fun.

making overall diff for everyone harder wouldnt help either, cause ceratin sets would still be much better while others which are no very good atm would become totally useless.


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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you want me to re roll my toon your kidding right? please tell me your kidding i rolled my DB/WP the day the 2 sets went live and I've made it to 26 you want me to throw away all that time spent on the toon the badges he's errand the inf he's earned any inventions he has?

and why because you see SS/WP as being over powered get a grip your clearly off your rocker and out your mind i don't even have SS i have duel blades a set that when paired with willpower works well it doesnt make me a god it doesnt make me a wet paper bag it makes a good well rounded toon that i like to play and you want to Nerf it because the secondary I've picked happens to work even better with a primary i discounted because it didn't match my idea.

before you go calling Nerf on things here's some things to check once you've checked them all come back here with your numbers and truly prove your point.

compare all the brute primaries to each other without considering secondarys do take into account the type of damage they do and any secondary effects they have

now do the same for the secondary

now compare each and every combination possible so SS/WP SS/elec SS/energy SS/dark SS/SR DM/WP DM/fire DM/elec etc etc etc

then do the same but take into account the power pools and patron pools

now do this with training origin enhancements up to the appropriate lvl

now do it with DOs

now do it with SOs

now do it with higher value IOs eg those that give a better percentage than a standard SO

now do it with HOs

now do it using cheeps IO sets

now do it using expensive IO sets

now do it optimising for specific stats so best end recovery best resistance values best recharge boost

now do it for a completely optimised best it can be build using IOs (standard and invention)

now do it using purple IOs

right done all that?..good now take all that data and now do the same thing for every AT villain side once you've done that start comparing the many many different brute builds that you've came up with in different team makeups until you've tried each brute build with each possible team make up.

Once you've done all that and seen how a build changes dependent on level, slotting, and team make up you can go on to see how your individual brute builds perform against different enemy groups (you should also do this for the teams)

and now that you've done all this you can come and say

"X power set is overpowered"

until that point all you can say is "well i think X power set is overpowered but i cant prove it" because half arsed numbers you put together from comparing 1 type of power or 1 aspect of something don't = proof.

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Make rage unstackable would be a start.
And dont tell me that would gimp the chars....there was no stackable rage before sets came out without outside buffs and SS was doing fine.

Add some debuffs to WP like Stone gets them.
Like a - dmg or - rech on RTTC.

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Um you weren't here before ED were you and if you were you clearly missed the good old 6 slot rage for recharge and six slot hasten for recharge tactic.

and before you point out that ED nerfed this ED was brought in so that inventions could be added one replaced the other all be it with a few issues between them.

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Me, id like to see 90% of resources spent on new content and the rest fixing bugs.

I just dont think that what you are putting forward as a reason for a major power revamp is worth the expense this late in a games life.

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Make Rage unstackable, add -dmg or - rech on RTTC would not be a major power revamp, and could be done very easy.

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that's all fine and good congrats you've solved the problem of ss/wp now fix my DB/WP as his damage has dropped and that recharge debuff has made my combos harder to pull off

Thanks for clearing that up GR my raging alting can continue

Would love to see a Nemesis zone attack would be very cool

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I think I agree with the OP in large part.

I don't necessarily think you can't fail anything but yes, a good team of reasonably experienced players can munch through almost everything.

I got a lot of flak from some quarters for my request to increase the level of challenge, but I'm also aware I'm not alone in that way of thinking.

My personal feeling is that when NCSoft took the IP over they swung the pendulum a bit too far towards easy from where Cryptic had it. The "smoothing the XP curve" and massive debt reduction have really removed the challenge from most scenarios, regardless of AT

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I don't think the smoothing of the XP curve made things easier as there was definitely something wrong with it there were sections of the road to 50 that just crawled and did some what spoil the over all feel of the game.

However the Det thing god yes change it back it was under cryptic that started it with there 1/2 det for within missions i say abolish this a death any where should result in the same lvl of det with the only exception should be the rikti / undead invasions which should probably receive some form of det reduction but they should still get det (maybe %75 det instead of 100%)

Det should also be at least doubled tho personally i would like to see it tripled to take into account patrol XP.

The only way balance could be achieved is if they abolished all ATs all power sets and all bar 1 type of Mob which would be a pretty poor game and more than likely see people leave in droves.

By the very nature of things certain ATs are going to be better at certain things and within those ATs certain power sets are going to perform better in certain situations also there's the question of perception if a single AT or powers set combo are created more than another that can lead to that AT seeming far more powerful than the others. So i say no to your idea of balance as its not balance but dumbing down of the variety that the AT/power groups model represents

As things stand I can create my uber powerful EM/Invul tank who can stand toe to toe with AVs and hit them and cause damage. Or i can create my dark/ice tank who can tank huge spawns of mobs and take almost no damage but cant really damage them him self. i love both these toons even if one takes far longer to lvl than the other and i couldn't have these toons under your idea of balance.

Now back to your first point "THIS GAME MUST NOT GET ANY EASIER" this agree with the game should not get easier tho personally i don't think it has i think I've got better at it as have other people so when we team together were a better team but that aside i wouldn't want to see things become "easier" there for instead nerfing (or debuffing if you prefer) the players powers and ATs why not add challenge and this is something the devs are doing all be it very slowly. Now personally if i was the dev's i would look at the different villain groups and give them some more units Hero side Freaks could get the Sonic tanks and they could create a sonic lieutenant/minion lvl mob as well there's also the sneaky freaks which could begin to appear in freak missions after about lvl 25 (i believe that's the lvl of there mission in villains could be wrong) there number could also be increased to include tanks, etc also bone doctors could be added maybe even give them a few varieties eg healy type buffy type and debuffy type so there's 1 group that could gain 3 new mob types with very little work.

Do the same for the other groups and the old tactics wont be so effective so the game difficulty will increase until the player base adapt just as the difficulty of rikti raised slightly when they gained there new mobs.

the difficulty settings could also be looked at so that difficulties other than heroic offered a increased challenge they could even add more lvls of difficulty.

Um wrong wrong wrong Psi dose not kill a granite in seconds yes it will kill a granite but it wont kill it in seconds and your not gonna stand there and just take it are you? are you hell your gonna activate rooted for that lovely regen boost maybe fire of earths embrace to heal back the damage and get another lovely Regen boost because its also increased your HP Plus you would never face psi mobs in granite any ways that's what minerals are for.

Plus i believe the test was 3 mobs all doing smashing damage there for granite would be a perfectly viable defence