TerraDraconis

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I ask this mostly out of curiousity... has anyone bothered to take a look at Big_Snake's posting history? On the Guardian boards he has a somewhat poor reputation of being needlessly inflammatory.


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No need. If you look at his last 3 posts in this very thread it is obvious that he is unhappy that it is a real discussion and trying to derail it.... Heh poor snake.

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Villains should probably have been integrated into the existing game world, not shunted off into their own. The additions and changes since CoV shipped indicate the devs realize they kind of goofed so we see co-op zones (RWZ), co-op missions (save Baby New Year) or parallel versions of the (mostly) same content (Orouboros).

Anyhoo, my two cents on it.

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And mine as well, especially on this point.

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Creole_Ned is dead on with these points.

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Terra, would you support that additions from this point on that left the current "blue side" exactly as is while updating only red side?

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I don't know about Terra, but I'd say no. Even though I'm predominantly a red-sider.

Mostly because then psycho/irrational/emo-blue siders would pop out of the woodwork like some red-siders in this thread have.

Villain side DOES need some work. There is no denying that. But making the IDIOTIC, IRRATIONAL, BASELESS accusation that the devs hate the red side will not get anything done.

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I'll take Bill's answer on this. And yes there are plenty of angsty emo blue siders as well.

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If CoV and CoH really are just one in the same to some of you, then why are you fighitng so hard against more CoV specific features?

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Ah but that isn't what is happening. People are stomping you into the ground for the claim that COV is the abused hated step child that never gets anything etc etc etc.

Pretty much all of the people posting have stated that they would be perfectly happy seeing more things for COV. But it can be asked for and discussed without the angst. If you look back you won't see the claim made that COV should receive no updates except from people supporting the angsty view.

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I rather think you proved it right there.


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Wrong because I can make exactly the same statement in regards to heroside. There are lots of improvements for heroside but that isn't the topic of this thread. It is just as true a statement as what I said about villainside.

Both games can use improvements. Guess what? The devs are doing just that, improving both games.

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Terra, as reasonable as you are, if gamers don't want to suspend their disbelief to make a point, then there's no force in the world that can suspend that disbelief.


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True but I'm trying to make the point to them that when you play a computer game you are limited in how much things can be stretched. A human gamemaster can adapt the game to the player if he or she wants or can simply tell them no you can't play that. A computer can't tell you that your character doesn't fit the games world.

Essentially what is happening is that COV is villainy lite and some people want to play villains going off to do their own things irregardless of what the games story is. That is where the conflict and claims that RWZ and Ouroboros are not content for them come from. Because they are trying to play a different game than is being provided they are unhappy with the game that is in front of them.

There are plenty of things that need to be done to improve COV even if you don't change the metastory. First the advancement path is to narrow. Adding Burke was a first good move, but there needs to be additional paths at higher levels. I do expect to see that coming, particularly as the new developers are brought on staff. But it is a legitimate issue that could be worked on.

It would be nice to see more villainous opportunities for characters added. And I don't mean in the kick puppies and randomly kill people way. I mean in the suave take over the world type way. But that is something that has to happen within the game engines limitation and again we have the realities of a computer controlled world to contend with. I could go on there are lots of improvements for villainside but that isn't the topic of this thread. The topic is why is COV abused and ignored which is patently untrue.

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Here we go. Can there never be a civil discussion without the waaa waaa crap?

you asked what short end, I am showing you. You refuse to aknowledge it and go the inflamatory route.


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::sigh:: No you showed me nothing of the sort. I refute your claim of villains receiving the short end and instead state this more appears to crying and making a fuss when it isn't productive.

I keep stating there are problems and issues that can be worked on but this approach, particularly claiming that villains are getting the short end of the stick, or that villains are hated, or any other claim along those lines isn't a productive approach. Particularly when it doesn't hold up to analysis.

Now your perspective maybe that villains get the short end, but you need to make clear this is your opinion, not state it as a fact.

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Issue 9 The invention system and new Hami. Larger playerbase = more vibrant economy. Keeping Villains from accessing that rich market was a bad and shortsighted idea.


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Great idea if you want to see the villains screwed. Blue side had lots and lots and lots of people with billions of influence to burn. Villains would not have been able to compete with that.

The fact that heroes had an exploitable TF that was fixed is not supporting your point.

Again just because you don't like content doesn't make it invalid. Villain side got a brand new Hamidon encounter and a new zone. YOu don't like it that is fine but it is brand new COV content.

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Issue 10: the Rikti return. Whoop de dam doo.


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Again just because you don't like the content doesn't invalidate it as new content. The Rikti and the Vanguard fit into the metastory of City of Villains. That your character is resisting that metastory and trying to play counter to it doesn't invalidate it as valid new content. You can scream that you hate and loath the new content all you want but it is still new content.

Could it have been made a bit more general? Yes, is this any reason to throw a hissy fit about it? No.

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Flashback: There are more heroes than villains right?


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And this is pertinent? Flashback isn't there to provide a chance to catch up on old missions. It is there to provide a continuing repeatable source of missions. That you don't understand this distinction is interesting. But leads you to incorrect conclusions.

I fail to understand any relavence to your point about Dual blades? Yes everyone got them... so? And yes it is the first weapon set seen by brutes. You are not seeing this as a positive thing? From that I must conclude that your saying brutes shouldn't have weapons.

Weapon customization was a cool thing that they could do. It specifically helps any character who uses weapons. I fail to see any bias against COV here except in your own mind.

If you can't handle a blaster than shame on you.

Accolades ... ? I fail to see your point, you are not making sense here. Just kind of huh.....

Look the martyred we are so put upon and abused stance just isn't working.

Are there things that could be improved in COV? Absolutely. But taking the stance you are isn't going to help COV at all. You are embracing the we are the put upon step children whaaaaaa attitude that turns people off.

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And how longs the RSF been out? The Lab techs been bugged from day 1. If there was such a case in the STF, it woulda gotten fixed the first week.

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Inaccurate, it likely would still be down as well. There are plenty of buggy COH missions.

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Well yes, I'd like an alternate zone path as well.

Although, I see parallels with the hazard zone argument as a lot of people have with CoV. Since hazard zones aren't used much they don't get any content so they aren't used much.

Would you use hazard zones more if they had as much to do in them as normal zones? As many contacts (well hidden, of course), a police scanner, and the like?

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Actually the hazard zones appear to be being phased out of COH.

No I don't like hazard zones, I actualy dislike the hazard zone aspect of the COV zones.

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There is a large difference. Imagine if you will that Issue 12 is nothing but the addition of being able to set up City of Heroes to run a virtual fish tank screen saver when you go AFK. This is certainly something new added to the game, but by no means would it be in any way adding something substantial to the game. To the villain side, that's essentially what I10 was. Oh sure, there were new features, but it was not added with villains in mind for anything other than simply throwing them a bone to appease them. I've already outlined how they could have made RWZ truly dual-side content. Some of the new technology implemented could then have been used to make other parts of both games more interesting. The ability for a contact to give different missions and especially text based on your AT would have added a new element to the game, if used properly. Instead, both sides are treated to the same missions, the same stories, the same everything. However, since it's easier to believe that villains would team up to do hero things when a large threat is encountered, the stories were written to reflect villains crossing over in a time of need. If for I12 your hero was given Westin Phipps as a contact, would you happily accept the new content to destroy schools and the like? Would you complain that it went against your chars? Would you just ignore their story and run with it anyway, because hey, it's something to do?


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Screen saver for I12 is a strawman arguement. Try again. And if they did do that I would simply say thank you and keep playing.

What you are failing to grasp here is that just because you personally think the content sucked doesn't mean that most agreed with you. For that matter it doesn't mean that the content isn't valid and good solid content for COV. Remember just because you don't like it doesn't make it invalid.

Unfortunately it appears that they couldn't make RMZ dual sided. It would have been nice but they couldn't. Your stating that your certain they could do it doesn't change the cold hard reality that it isn't technically feasable for the existing game engine. If they had held the issue up for 5 - 6 months they might have been able to rewrite the contact system to support it. Maybe. Maybe not and then the issue would have been delayed all that time for no benefit.

Some of my heroes would have zero issues with Westin Phipps. Again it is in the players aproach to this and your failing in your aproach.

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Despite your complete lack of any solid argument here, your statement that *I* somehow CAN point to something from I8-I11 as being "build especially for CoV" is flatly absurd, on many levels. However, since you didn't bother to even try to make a case here, I won't bother to point out how foolish you sounded doing so.


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Ah but the arguement that no content exclusive to COV isn't what is being made. The claim is that there is no new content for COV. Very different things and for that matter the appropriateness of the RMZ content for COV is very much open to debate dispite your claim to the contrary. Just because it makes you feel all icky and heroic inside doesn't mean it makes most others feel that way.

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Nothing that you've said here has any relevance. "What the world would be like without Recluse" is completely without merit. First off, there is the basic principal of what information is and is not cannon - That being that no matter how "official" something is, if it's not IN the material itself, it's not cannon. That aside, conceptually, almost no char of mine that would be changed if Reculse weren't in power. Hell Hound would still be a demon, Epoch Eclipse would still be an alien, Feign Death would still be death incarnate. Etc. etc. The only ones that, conceptually, WOULD care in the least are the ones specifically built to be Recluse's toadies and grunts. The Arachnos soldiers themselves. And even then, for all but the most brain dead among them, the thought that THEY put Recluse in charge would mean that they would no longer feel the need to be his servents, but that Recluse is beholden to them, and not vice versa as the rest of the game is built around.

There is no lack of creativity here except with the devs and the game itself.


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You are jumping the shark completely here. The problem is one of expectations. Your looking for a free form world where you can make your character be exactly what you dictate. Unfortunately computer games do not support this. They have mechanical limitations that have to be worked with. in addition they have background stories to explain what is going on.

Essentially you and others are complaining that you don't like the COV metastory. There is nothing wrong with making that claim but... This isn't what your arguing. It appears to be the core of why your argueing but it isn't the arguement your making.

You want to be a specific type of villain. The game doesn't support this. In effect every effort you make to do things to your vision ignoring the games metastory will cause you more and more aggrivation as you can't make your character do what you want. Additionally the metastory will force you into actions your can't visualize your character doing.

This is your failure of vision and creativitiy.

Your not building your character to work within the world of the game. Then you complain that your forced to be a hero in the RMZ or rescue Recluse in Ouroboros. The game and the game world are not a free form RPG system. They oporate within a larger metastory. Work with that story and your character will shine, fight it and you will be unhappy.

That is the point I'm trying to make and your failing to grasp.

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Heroes were able to get the CoV 1 year badge. Villains are able to get the CoH badges. That does not change the fact the anniversary for my side of the game is now ignored. Tell me, if they changed the date for the anniversary badges to celebrate CoV, and stopped giving out CoH badges, do you think people would have accepted it while saying "Thank you sir, may I please have another?"

As for their being one game, sorry, no. They are two games. My copy of City of Villains is quite specifically CoV only. I had to get CoH later to get it's access. As I stated before, it is no different than such combination games as World of Xeen or Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Two games that, yes, do have points of commonality where they can be combined, but otherwise are two separate products, purchased separately, paid for separately, used separately.

On that note, no you cannot claim that "Old CoH and New CoH are two separate games by that logic." You cannot access "New" CoH content without having CoH. You can access CoV w/o having CoH and vice versa. The comparison is just foolish.


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You can argue about this until your blue in the face, if the devs no longer are treating COV as a sperate game then they won't be doing things like issuing anniversary badges for it.

Oh and your copy of COV now gives you both COV and COH you can go and create blue characters if you choose. Sorry one game.

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There is more than a small discrepancy, though. I want you to preform a simple test:

Go through CoH, and count up every single thing, gameplay wise, that you see that you CAN'T do in CoV.

Then go do the same with CoV.

CoV has Masterminds. That's about it. There's some unique power sets, but that's to be expected. It's a GOOD thing that there are different sets for different sides. Unique content is a drawing force, and there needs to be more of it - on BOTH sides.

This is where the big problem is. You, and others like you who treat the games as one game (and this includes the devs) are quite simply cheating both sides out of good content. The devs are terrified of making anything new for CoV becuase the legacy players, yourself included, will come to the forum in droves and demand that you get what villains had. We saw it with I8. I8 being focused on heroes was not a bad thing. I8 giving the heroes all of Villain's unique points was. Instead of designing something specifically for heroes, they tried to hammer CoV content's square peg into CoH's round hole. Safeguard missions are crap, a pale imitation, thrown in SOLELY because Villains got something new. Instead of new content, you got rehashed content. And because of it, because of people like you, neither side can have anything good and unique to them again.

I hope you're proud of yourself.


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You are cheating your self with your own expectations. I doubt very much there will be alot of exclusive content for either side. Certainly we may see some new zones in COV but there are not that many if any gaps in the leveling because of the better game construction that went into building it. This is why the hazard zones of COH are slowly being removed and modified to be useful game places. The devs have implied that one or more of the may be modified into another co operative type zone opening.

And yes I am proud of myself. I am flexable and creative and work within the parameters of the game I'm playing to build good solid characters.

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In short, I expect people to be honest enough to admit to some stuff being such common knowledge/seen so often on these forums that one need not drag in a Supreme Court ruling everytime someone says.... pretty much anything. Bahahaha! I even make ME laugh, at the mere thought of such a silly expectation.


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Yes but the things your claiming don't fall into that category. Thus the request for evidence to back up the claims.

Since you asked here it is. I remember now why I skipped replying to this.

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Now that said maybe you don't like the content you have recieved, but you can't deny the new content that added.

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Sure we can.

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Incorrect the content is there for both villains and heros. I fail to see how it isn't content for villains.

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It's quite simple, really.

It is the difference between contented being added FOR a game, and content being added TO a game.


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Not really but if you think it is that is fine.

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As a red side player, none of the content added to CoV since I7 has had any sense of being aded for CoV. There is not a single thing I can point out and say "They were thinking about Villains when they designed this." Not one.


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wrong.

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The pseudo-trials in I11 were the closest they've come since I7 to making content designed FOR villains. Yes, they are villain story arcs. Yes, they actually treat the villains as villains instead of heroes. But in order to do so, they had to destroy the given story and history of the game.

Take Mender Tesseract's Task Force. Levels 25-34. This is important, I know a lot of people have only used the Ouroboros to let their 50's do what they missed, but Tesseract is designed for players level 25-34.

In this task force, the villain (who can solo), or group of villains, put Lord Recluse in power. At level 25. You're still nothing but a grunt at even 34. You're still one of Recluse's followers (since, you know, he's the ONLY leading force on the Villain side). Everything you're doing is still under his watchful eye, and under his orders.

But he owes his very power to you. At level 25.

The entire TF leaves a bitter taste in my mouth because it seems so obviously slapped together without any forethought. I'm not saying the hero side ones are any better, becuase I haven't seen them. But this was crap. It was not added FOR the game, it was added TO the game, quickly slapped together to give us something to do.


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Here is where you show your lack of creativity. First the news paper articles in the prerelease show what the world would be like if Recluse hadn't taken the islands and in that world you wouldn't be where you are at this point. You can choose to ignore it if you want, but that is the games world view and mechanic. By the same token you can play a Sith Lord if you want, it is just that the game mechanics will be fighting you every step of the way.

This is important, when you play an online game you are subject to the constraints of the game and its engine. If you work with it your rewarded with fun. If you fight the game mechanics and assumptions you get that bitter taste in your mouth. Your trying to impose your will on the game mechanics and that is a fight you can never win.

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Now, it may seem like a minor point to you, and it is. But that's part of the problem. Even something so inane, so trivial that it is taken for granted, the smallest detail... is left out. The disparity has gotten SO bad, SO obvious, that something as insignificant as an anniversary badge isn't even considered by the dev teams any more. Heroes get their badges for years 1, 2, 3, they'll get it again for year 4. Villains got their badge for year 1..... and then nothing at the year 2 mile marker.



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You also get the badges, they are for the game as a whole. The devs have essentially admitted that CoH and CoV are and always have been one game. It was a marketing ploy initially that spun them as two games. In effect Matt/Positron is saying there is only one game not two so there will be no badges for the aniversary of the first paid expansion. What your asking for is that each paid expansion recieve its own badge. If they where truely seperate games you would never recieve the 2 and 3 year aniversary badges for the game launch. Any bitter taste you have from this is your own faulty expectations.

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Not fixing broken ATs, not getting VEATs, watching heroes get their versions of our content for no reason other than WE had something THEY didn't, not having hazard zones, not having any variety in the zones, only ONE zone for each level range, a serious lack in SFs, new story lines that go completely at odds with current or previous story lines, all co-op content from the RWZ to the holiday events being designed FOR heroes but added TO villains... they're never going to fix any of that if they can't even muster up enough devotion to a game - a game that we pay just as much for as any blue sider - to mark it's anniversary.


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Again you fail to grasp the realities of the game and the world. When Cryptic spun down development after COV's release the support levels where brought down. They are only now expanding the staff to the levels you are expecting and think exist. Note that just after the release of I11 after 2 years of whimpering and crying blasters have had there inherant fixed. Also note that Castle is actively working on something for stalkers and some of the other villain AT's. That you don't accept the realities of what the staff they had could do is again your problem.

One of the things you fail to grasp is that COV was built with many of the lessons learned from the first 5 issues of COH. That is why there are no hazard zones. Instead each zone was built large and the hazard zone was incorporated into the individual zones designs.

It your perception not the reality that the RWZ and Ouroboros are Hero only content that is tacked on to the villain side. That reality fails to meet your expectations the simple truth of this. The RWZ and Ouroboros are as villainous as you want them to be.

And again why would there be a seperate aniversary for something that isn't a seperate game? you can't even buy COV any more as a seperate game unless you look for an old box to buy. The only version for sale is the combined Good versus Evil version. Again reinforcing the harsh reality that it isn't two games it is one.

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You, Terra, don't "get it". You're never going to "get it". But I actually DO play red side. Every time I log in I'm presented with evidence that our game just doesn't matter to the devs. They stopped designing FOR City of Villains nearly two years ago.

It breaks my heart that I finally find a game I love, and it is abandoned by it's creators.

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You Death-mage just don't "get it" and I'm afraid that you aren't. I actually play the red side and am presented with lots of new toys and things to play with.

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Quite frankly, I'm a bit tired of listening to cry-baby blue-siders who turn a blind eye to real problems in the game simply becuase they feel superior becuase "they were here first."



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Ah yes I have slightly more villains than heroes so I'm a cry-baby blue sider? The only people I see in here crying are the ones posting that Villains are abused and mistreated etc. The others seem more tolerantly amused by you.

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On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.



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As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.

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I edited my earlier post to clarify my position.

No one is crying for Martyrdom. Please let's not start that.

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Yes but claiming short end of the stick is taking the martyred victim aproach. And thus the wrong language to use.

Don't get me wrong there are legitimate issues on the COV side and those can be debated and discussed. But this basic thread doesn't even try and do that, it's very title cries out that the OP thinks COV is being victimized by the devs.

I'll be glad to discuss the need for more content, expanded opportunities for arcane salvage etc. Those are all valid concerns and things that can be asked for. That wasn't where this thread started and was going though.

And I'll even give you one more thing. It has been brought up as a valid point that I think holds true. It is more City of Mercenaries than City of Villains and yes Vanguard does lend itself to that. But the problem there is obviously a limitation of the game engine. Ie contacts can only give one set of mission briefs and lack an ability to differenciate between hero and villains. It might be reasonable to ask for some of those briefs to be made a bit more ambigous. That said I still have zero problem justifying them to my villain characters.

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You know, Terra, there have been a lot of very specific points that have been brought up, here and elsewhere. If you REALLY want to respond to what you perceive to be nothing by people playing the "victim card", then why don't you actually respond to the specific issues? Otherwise, you really aren't adding anything to the discussion, and are just making yourself out to look willfully ignorant.

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Yes but I don't agree with the points. They generally just display a lack of flexability and creativity in aproach. The point is usually a very ridged and inflexable view of what villainy is.

And yes I have responded I think the claim that Vanguard isn't for villains is lame and doesn't hold any water. To try and build an arguement around that doesn't work. I'll dismiss it because I have no problem working the Rikti war zone into any and all of my Villains.

I simply don't have any sympathy for the claim that COV has recieved little to no attention from the devs because it isn't supported by the facts. You can argue that the attention it has recieved isn't what you want, but that is a different point than claiming it hasn't recieved attention and content.

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On the flip side there are some of us that are sick of CoV getting the short end of the stick.



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As we keep asking the short end of what stick. We martyred victim act.

I was soloing my grav/storm last night and having a blast. Not sure why you would say he was slow. he was doing the Yin arc in faultline.

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First, the gave me CoV. Where all the ATs can solo well at a good pace, unlike hero side, where only one AT can do it.

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Scrappers, Blasters, Peacebringers, and Warshades can all solo well at a reasonable pace. That's four. I haven't done the PB thing past level 7, but with their buffs self-contained I'm confident in my statement.

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Actually Tankers and controllers also solo well. Or at least I haven't had any complaints with them. Are they slower than my hot knife through butter scrapper? Sure but they don't take forever to solo either.

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I really don't understand why this topic keeps coming up... And I PLAY VILLAINSIDE!

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MOST of us don't understand it, because most of us play BOTH sides. Seriously, I'm not even close to alone when I look at threads like this and go "...wha?"

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Actually most of us don't understand it because most of us have an imagination that has no problem handling things like Vanguard in character villainside.

One additional note. I see these claims about Vanguard missions being to heroic as a failure of imagination and creativity on the part of the player.

It is fairly clear that Vanguard is a mercenary orginization with no regard for hero of villain. They have a mission and will do what it takes to achieve this mission. Sure it would have been nice if there was a way for the mission text to spell that out for the people who lack imagination. But it appears that there is no tech in game to have two different sets of mission text depending on hero/villain. So none of this bothers me.

As mentioned I have no problem visualizing how my villain will take advantage of these saps that are hiring him. And sure they want to pay me to rescue someone? So? This doesn't bother me. I don't melt or scream in agony if I'm being paid to rescue someone or guard someone instead of rob them. And you know what I'll bet I can call in favors from the person I rescue later to my advantage.

I'm failing to see your point about Vanguard. My villains have zero problem with them. They are essentially hiring your character to act as a mercenary for them. This includes the things you appear to find objectionable. I personally fail to see where any intelligent villain wouldn't take advantage of the vanguard offer to steal advance tech and learn various heroes weaknesses.

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Then you need to wake up. The villain content is made for heroes, but villains "get to do it". Pretty much making things easy for the devs. Nice personal insults pal.

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Incorrect the content is there for both villains and heros. I fail to see how it isn't content for villains. It is that blind insistance that it isn't for villains that leads me to call such behavior foolish. It is up to you to convince me that I am wrong here.

As far as I can see this whole complaint boils down to... "I don't like the new content so I'll dismiss it and whinge that there is no new content." How exactly am I wrong in that characterization of what you are doing?

Then you and your friends are essentially being foolish. The reality doesn't match your stated impressions.

Now that said maybe you don't like the content you have recieved, but you can't deny the new content that added. I've seen the claim about not liking or using it. That doesn't invalidate that this was new content for COV.

Issue 6 & 7 where purely COV content, Issue 8 was mostly COH content and Issues 9, 10, & 11 have been equal content for both sides.

I just can't see any validity to your claim thus you are apparently being foolish. How can you make any legitimate claim that you are hated or not recieving content? How?

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Because the ALL the paying people need to know.

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Why?