Tal_N

I'd suggest that the 'spydrones' (I assume they look similar to the policedrones) at least make a noise so you can hopefully get a little warning when in close proximaty.

One problem I see with this plan Positron, scrappers and tankers won't be able to really hit a spydrone which is floating outside of melee range thus it creates an imbalance. Technically they could be followed around without being able to stop them.

I'd like to see an option to change the SG colors without needing to disband the SG and make it all over again.

Also the ability to do a mass email to everyone in the supergroup would be ideal for organsing things. The email system in general needs alot of work since its never rarely used and you can't send to multiple players as far as I know.

What might also be nice is having special auras available for supergroup members or maybe part of the suergroup costume. Nothing as varied as the auras you get at level 30 but certainly more of an incentive to join an SG and wear their colors.

Finally I can have a big fat hero I like the sound of these PvP missions too especially with temp powers.

Jack might be the lead designer of one of the best MMOs on the market at the moment but that doesn't mean he's screwed when it comes to messing with the personal forum settings LoL

I bet he had Geko or someone from tech support come over to change his avatar for him! ROFL

Pretty pretty pretty pweeeeeeseeee Mr Statesman sir, your honor?

I promise to tell the location of the super secret dooms Day Device or the SSDDD as you would probably call it

LoL

We hear that the USA PCGamer got lots of nice information about Issue4 and I htink they mentioned some stuff about PvP and CoV. Something like a two page spread of screenies and details.

Any chance we can have some of that sweet lovin' passed to the devoted forum dwellers in the next few days please?

The SSOCS (as its known) will provide an out of combat system that is in theme with the comic book heroes. So thats things like solving puzzles, piecing together clues and maybe constructing things which aid your hero from items you have gathered.

So yes, they'll provide a more cerebral element however don't expect it to dtrain the braincells too much until its had more time to develop.

Goes to show that pesimism gets the devs attention. I like the concept of some time-travel you mentioned there Jack. Maybe having alternate time periods that influence one another would be nice. If you ever played some of the Zelda games by Nintendo such as 'Oracle of Ages' or the world famous 'Ocarina of Time' then you'd know the popularity of having quests that can only be solved with time traveling.

I was wondering today, what is left to be added once city of villains comes out? I mean sure there are the obvious things like new powersets and archtypes. But there's only so many of them that can be added. Plus I'm talking about the really BIG things. So we have heroes now. Villains later. Super Bases to raid and recover items from.

But beyond that there doesn't seem to be much more.

The skills system appears to be the only real way to add depth of content. The limitation of no skill system or aquisition of rare and valuable items creates a wall which I agree needs to be there. A fulltime hero doesn't have a bussiness to run so naturally the game should reflect that. Villains too if they are fulltime don't operate on the trading level either since they go through their subordinates. You'd never have the Kingpin standing on the corner of a street selling advanced weaponry now would you.

All I can say is that I hope the storyline behind Paragon City is enough to keep players involved because the worlds are too generic to warrent exploration. The limitations of being a hero/villains cuts out any kind of crafting and trading for business purposes and other than those I don't see alot of player interaction except for PvP.

If my pregnant wife who has only been playing games of this type for the last year AND has never gotten a character past level 20 can nevigate several of her level 5 characters across the Hollows without incident then I'm sure you can.

All it takes is a little awareness and knowledge of where to and where not to go. A little tip would be to NOT go into the Gultch which is a known deathtrap for low level characters. People do it on a daily basis infact so I know you can do it without dying.

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I agree with your whole post other than, you must not be a high lvl character cause once in your upper 30's and 40's you look forward to those slots

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Yeah my highest is level 33, I kinda lost interest because everything was far too easy and my character had no really good powers to look forwards to. I hate the fact that the 30-40 gap literally has no really fantastic content.

Consider for a moment the kind of powers a level 50 controller would have. First of all they'd have several mez attacks both singular and AoE, secondly they'd have pets as well. Even if you level the playing field to an 'even con' system so that damage and accuracy is scaled then a level 50 controller is still going to have an advantage over a much lower level hero.

The fact is that the controller can chain hold someone thus you'd need to have several heroes to take the single level 50 controller down. But because of the way the system works it would be possible for a very skilled and somewhat lucky player to slip through and defeat the controller one on one.

People who think that they're losing what defines a hero by leveling the field are simply forgetting that its the powers which encourage you to level. I don't look forwards very much to my odd number levels because its just slots. But the even number ones are great cause I get a new ability. That alone shows the importance of powers to what defines a powerful hero.

So in PvP it doesn't matter if all damage and accurcy is the same, the powers will still make one hero more powerful than another but skill would come into play as HOW you use those powers means the difference between victory and defeat. The higher level heroes just have more options compared to a lower level one.

An even con system is not breaking with the devs wanting several lower level heroes needed to take on a higher level one, thats why its such a perfect system. Inherantly the more attack powers you have the higher your DPS anyway.

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Is it realistic? No but in an MMO you have to suspend what seems to make sense to appeal to as many as possible.

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Realism from the fictional sense can be created with a simple bit of logic when applied to the city of heroes universe. We all know that heroes in pragon city are registered and monitered, you cannot enter zones that you're security clearence doesn't allow. You need to prove yourself a capable hero because they allow you in. Equally so you're not allow to train in certain abilities/powers until certain points in your career. This could be explained by the fact more powerful abilties run a higher risk of damaging the cities, bystanders or killing the crimminals rather than defeating them. They moderate what you can do which also explains why heroes as they rise up the security level cause more damage, its because they're now allowed to use greater force to bring crimminals to justice since they have shown themselves to be experienced and dedicated to fair justice.

Villain organisations too have a similar system, they will never allow a supervillain they support to become too powerful for them to control so you need to prove that you're dedicated to their cause before they allow you to wield more of your powers. While the heroes are registered and required to control themselves as law enforcers the supervillains are controlled through the threats of the organisations they work for. A case of "Don't do that until we say you can... or else!"

Thus its easy to see that all heroes and villains can be seen as essentially equal. They all operate at the same level IF they break the rules which they are bound to. It would be simple for Paragon City to ammend the rules because of a huge rise in paranormal crime to allow heroes to dismiss their security level restrictions for the sake of protecting themselves and defeating a serious threat (ie. a super villain)

The villain organisations naturally would allow their cronies to use all of their strength if it means defeating yet another super hero.

This from a fictional 'realism' point of view it can be fairly justified to make all heroes and villains 'even con' to one another without it sounding silly.

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((Formerly posting as KickAsterisk))
If it's a PvP zone system, where everyone in the zone "consents" to PvP, only Lvl 50's will end up there, as lower levels will just fall prey to higher level characters.


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This is how the system will work, from what the devs describe and how CoV is a stand-alone from CoH yet can link together is that there will be 'buffer' zones for PvP. This would be like a no-mans land where on either sides you have the hero and villain zones. A hero that wishes to engage in PvP will need to travel into this buffer zone to get into the villain populated zone. In essense the second you step into this no-mans land you have consented to PvP and if you want a real challenge then you go completely into the hero/villain zones.

This is very similar to how things work in games like Everquest as my wife explains it. Whereby the conflict mainly exists to control this buffer zone thereby allowing easier access to the opposing factions zones.

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As for those who actually think it would be fun to sweep into the Atlas city training zones with a lvl 50 fire blaster and rain death on all the newbs - forget it. First off, the devs aren't foolish enough to allow it (I hope ), secondly, we really don't need players like that in the game. They're called griefers.

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Saddly it cannot be denied that its fun to obliterate another player, even I have to admit that when I play deathmatch games you can bet I had for the most powerful weapon possible and then head to the busiest area on the map. PvP in games where you have levels is the same, you had into the lowbie zones and kill/defeat not because it's a challenge but because its fun for you.

The real issue is that its NOT griefing, if you ever played SWG then you'd know that it was not uncommon to see large raiding parties heading into Theed to shoot declared Imperials/Rebels who didn't have much in the way of combat skills. I mean entertainers, merchants and crafters who simply declared so they could trade with their faction. In Everquest it was also common for such things to happen and with a proposed level-based PvP its perfectly within the rights for some level 50 to continally follow the same lower level hero/villian around a zone and kill them over and over making the poor players debt worse and worse but you'll be unable to report them for harrasment.

The devs are basically following the same template it seems as every other level based RPG with PvP content, yes it has problems however I think they're too afraid to try something new because it might delay the release of the PvP content.

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So defence has an unfair advantage because in Scenario 1:
Hero 1 dies in two hits and Hero 2 needs to attack only 8 times.
and in Scenario 2:
Hero 3 dies in two hits and Hero 4 needs to attack only 8 times.

So.... the end result is identical, yet somehow this is hugely skewed in favour of defense?

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Notice the damage difference, it still takes two hits to kill hem simply because of the hitpoints. I should have picked a number for the hitpoints that made that point more obvious. If say for example the first heroes HP was 500 then you'd se that Hero 1 dies within less hits than hero 3.

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So you're saying that an L50 will go out of his way to grief an L14 (and therefore we need to scale damage), but an L14 won't go out of his way to grief an L50 (therefore the scaled damage doesn't matter)? That appears to be what you're saying. My point still stands: If damage is scaled to even-con, level pretty much goes out the window. An L12+ <damage class> is a deadly threat to any level Controller or Defender, bar nothing except pre-prepared buffs. Maybe L12 is a little low, but say L32. I don't understand why an L32 should be a major threat to an L50.

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A level 50 WILL without fail go out of their way to hunt lowbies in lower level zones. Sure you might not do it but it will happen as is evident in every single MMO that ever had a level based PvP system. The flaw in that logic however is that a level 50 hunting a level 1 will suffer no risk of hunting them while the level 1 is powerless against a level 50. Its poor gameplay mechanics to allow the player to be in an impossible situation that they cannot avoid by any means. Its like having Kings Row and Galaxy City seperated by Founders Falls requiring a low level character to run across it and no way around. People would complain like hell against such a thing and its the same situation for PvP.

You say that it make no sense for a level 14 to be a threat to level 32. Thats because you comparing another player to being like an NPC, the difference here is that players don't like to be ganked by a higher player and have no ability to defend themselves. NPCs don't careless since they have no feelings. How would you feel if a level 50 character kept following around you while you're playing your level 32 one? he could kill you over and over and over making you suffer massive debt as a result. You'd be so annoyed you'd log out and worse still is that you couldn't petition against that.

The even con system is a solution to that very irritating problem.

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An L50 attacking an L32 monster does L50 damage. The way purple monsters work in CoH now has nothing to do with damage scaling in the way you seem to be proposing.

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And you know what, because of how that system is functioning I can STILL solo monsters that are lower levels than me its just that they take longer to kill now. Yet by design they are supposed to require a group of players to take down always. Once again you can't seem to break out of this mindset of a level 50 should always defeat a level 1 just because of that number. Try to remember that its unfun to be crushed continually with no means to escape or survive.

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And so forth. There is no even ground in the comics. Top shelf (paralleled here as L50) heroes or villains will DESTROY lesser heroes/villains/sidekicks.

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You see the heroes as levels, however as I pointed out spiderman should be able to go blow for blow against the Hulk. But the fact is that Spiderman would be completely unable to even defeat the Hulk in a fist fight. Its like a level 1 trying to beat a level 50 enemy, it simply cannot be done and a single hit could mean its all over. Spiderman however can avoid the attacks of the Hulk with his super reflexes, almost as if that specific ability is an equal level to the Hulk.

So in essense they are equally matched but only due to their powers, spiderman cannot defeat the Hulk in a fist fight and the Hulk cannot lay a finger on spiderman. What seperates them is the powers... just as it should be in the City of Heroes PvP.

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This doesn't really hold water to me, either. Either it's L50s hunting L1s, or it's everyone hunting everyone. There will be situations in which I don't want to be hunted. In those situations, there must be a solution. The solution will be similar with or without scaled damage... all scaled damage does is turn level into a largely irrelevant detail.

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If the concept of everyone hunting everyone is beyond you then there not much I can say because its easy to see that there are great benefits for ALL heroes to be at equal risk in PvP compared to a level 50 being in a safer situation than a level 1. People talk about policing the PvP arena, but what happens when there is no one around to stop a small group of high level PvP players from sweeping a lowbie zone just for the fun of it? For the lowbies in that zone its more feasible to just log out and come back later because they're sick of trying to find someone their own level to fight with only be to one-shotted by those jerks wandering around.

Whats more fair to the induviduals? Equal risk for all at all times or being at higher risk while low and less risk when high?

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Yes, there is. If I am an INV tanker, and I have Unyielding on, a single hold from a single controller will not land. Maybe, if they spam all their holds, they might have a slight chance... I don't know the numbers.

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Again your comparing PvP logic to PvE logic. I see now how you cannot seperate the concept of the two in your mind. Try to remember that enemies in the game have lower magnitude holds and such than even the most basic hero, also the PvP system is going have subtle differences to avoid the chance of any single hero being unstoppable. If a controller is able to hold a even con boss with one or two powers then the same will apply to a tanker of equal level.

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In the scope of this game, a) there is no such thing as ganking and b) it is entirely appropriate and justified for an L50 hero to destroy an L1 villain on sight. I'm not going to spend my time hunting L1 mobs, but when a mission sends me to AP, and I see a purse snatching, what do you think I do? I absolutely nuke the Hellion and send him packing to the grave.

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Again you are for some reason unable to seperate the concept of what works in PvP and what works in PvE in your mind. This is player vs player here and do you really think that level 1 hero who just made his character will apprectiate being attacked by someone just because he wants to PvP with his friends.

Let me just say that if they go ahead with the tried and tested method for PvP (in that it mirrors how PvE functions) then you will see this scenario for certain because it happens in all other MMOs that have PvP.

What you'll find is that people don't bother with PvP at lower levels because they're sick of being preyed on by higher level characters, you MIGHT see people start getting into PvP around level 20 or so but still it'll be a small percentage of the player base. At the higher levels you'll find alot more PvP because now they're not so vulnerable.

Thus PvP becomes only a feature that is feasible for the advanced players, thus it's not friendly towards the casual gamer and people will generally ignore it until much later in the game. So a major feature that is bearly used, talk about a waste of development time.

Tyroie brings up a good point. Look at all games in the world that are really successful and are PvP related. Even simple things like boardgames, cards and dice games try to keep all of the players at the same advantage or disadvantage as much of the time as possible.

Sure you do have games that people like that make the winner stronger and the losers weaker (counterstrike) and people like them but on the whole those games never let one player get a vast lead over the others. I have experienced PvP systems before and frankly it is not enjoyable to know you cannot win from the start.

(edit)
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Have some faith in your fellow man, ok?

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Yeah... cause we all now that it wasn't the players fault that the lawsuit from Marvel was filed. As for comparing real life to games, it doesn't work. Realism is totally non-compatible with good gameplay, ask anyone who has any dealings with game development.

Lets play a game of....

'[i]Whats the worse that could happen?[i]' (please don't sue me for copyright infringment Dr Pepper)

Standard PvP system

- Players will be able to defeat enemies they're own level with a decent challenge and crush weaker players with ease. They'd have a feeling of power in their PvP situation.

- Lower level players feel vulnerable in PvP while higher level players feel mainly safe.

-Some high level players will intentionally hunt low level players for the fun of it reguardles of penalities or lack of in-game benefit. Low level players will drop out of PvP due to debt incured from such things.

-Supergroups will form to specifically hunt lowbies. This will cause people to quit the game and cancel accounts since they are frustrated however the supergroup is allowed because its part of the games natural systems.

- High level players will stick to high level zones for PvP, low levels to low level zones for PvP. A devide forms in the community.

- Transition from seperate level PvP zones will be hard, someone who just turned level 31 might be too high for the level 20-30 zone for PvP however they will struggle with the new 30-40 PvP zone.

- Some players will find it is hard to locate other players around their level for PvP encounters. The PvP base as a whole will be limited by the number of players within fixed level ranges. Naturally low level PvP will be very active, mid-level moderately active and high level PvP will be quiet.

- Elitest attitudes are known to form in PvP because of the leveling system. This creates friction within the community and breeds animosity.

'Even con' PvP System

- Players of all levels when they consent to PvP will be at equal risk and gain equal rewards. High level characters will feel the same pressure from PvP as low level characters.

- Players will be unable to defeat any hero with utter discrimination, they may feel that they are weaker than a lower level hero if they lose.

- High level players and low level players will interact in PvP zones since they are on a more even footing. This helps the social aspect of the game greatly and brings the community together.

- There will be no hard transitions for leveling that effect PvP in vast ways, all PvP zones without mobs will be viable for all players.

- Locating potential PvP encounters will be incredibly easy as any player that has concented to PvP will be a worthy opponent.

- Elitest attitudes will not develop as all heroes are on even footing aside from powers. A level 50 can fall to a level 10 simply because they didn't play well.

- Combat will be based solely on skill rather than stats, when you win or lose you know its because of your personal skills and power usage rather than the fact you were outleveled.

-More of the player base will be involved in PvP since there is very little risk of being unable to defend yourself against high level characters should they attack you.

[/ QUOTE ]I object.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just want to point something out here with a few of your points. You are of course entitled to a difference of opinion but hear me out here.

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It makes no sense for a L50 controller to be shot in the back by an L14 blaster with a snipe and a followup, and die. With scaled damage, this is a likely situation.

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First of all by the sounds of it the PvP will be in special zones, these zones will be ranked much like existing zones. So the fact is that you won't find a level 14 running around a level 50 zones which has enemies that can pick them off with ease. They will probably stick to their own zones to avoid being killed by mobs. This is naturally only occour in crossover zones between the CoH part of the game and the CoV but you can bet there will be mobs there. Assuming they survive that gaunlet they might get into the other PvP zone where no mobs are.

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It doesn't make sense in terms of gameplay, and it doesn't make sense in terms of comic books, and it won't be fun.

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From a gameplay point of view it makes great sense, encounters with other players need to be a challenge just like the monsters in the game which now con purple to all players. Secondly in the case of comics it does work, in the books the only thing that seperate the Hulk from Spiderman is that he Hulk is nearly indestructable and Spiderman doesn't have as the same degree of superstrength. However you'd never see the Spiderman die within moments against the Hulk because his super reflexes would keep up with it. This 'even ground' methodolgy works even for the comic books. Lastly. Being placed into an impossible situation is never fun... being forced into one by another player is worse because you cannot escape it. One way or another you're going to have ambushes and deaths as a result. I know you like the security of being level 50 and what you consider 'safe' however consider what its like for lower level characters being actively hunted by level 50s with no way to defend themselves.

Frustration is the reason why PvP in an MMO has never taken the majority of the population, even in SWG they decreased the damage caused by other players to each other by 75% because people were sick of being one shotted. In this game the same will happen unless some kind of means is put in to prevent that.

Sure a 75% damage reduction would be one solution but you're intentionally putting a barrier between players for PvP. Things would be so much more fun if you're after a few PvP encounters and can find it in all zones rather than just being stuck with a few that keep your level of players around. Trust me when I say I hated it in SWG where I wanted a little PvP and couldn't find anyone who wouldn't whup my a*s because I had less combat skills. It got very very boring looking for an fair fight.

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Similarly, an INV tanker by L32, if he is auto-scaled to his enemy, will be effectively unkillable one on one by anyone.

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Every AT and powerset currently has something to counter it. Any tanker could be totally owned by a controller, all it takes is one successful hold and its all over. Even with an 'even ground' system in place. The same can be said for any scrapper and tanker. Even some blasters have ways to drop toggles with a hold or sleep. There is no such thing as someone being undefeatable by anyone just because you made everyone equal in damage ect...

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I don't want to be afraid to stomp around AP or PP with my L45 Scrapper, and I won't want to be afraid of L1-40 villains in CoV, either. It just doesn't make sense to me.

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You'd have no reason to stomp around Atlas Park unless you were ganking lower level players or hanging around the trainer to socialize. Thankfully AP will never be a PvP zone from what they have said. You're speaking from a highbies point of view. Why is it unfair for you to be worried about being in a low level zone while its apparently fair for lowbies to feel hunted and powerless to protect themselves in the lowbie zones?

Isn't it fair to everyone to give all heroes the same risks and rewards?

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Conversely the 40th attacking a 10th will still wipe the floor with him, damage wise, but if that 10th level had defence buffs (SR scrapper with bubbles - for example) then the chance to hit him would get "floored" rather than getting jacked because of level.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now see the problem here is that you're only taking accuracy and defence into consideration which is giving any powerset that boost defence an unfair advantage. As it stands consider this set of stats which will point things out more clearly:

Hero 1 (level 10) (martial arts/super reflexes) 400 hitpoints
Hero 2 (level 50) (assault rifle/ice manipulation) 1400 hitpoints

Hero 1 is attacking for 50 points of damage a hit with 50% accuracy. He also has a 25% ranged defence buff.

Hero 2 is attacking for 200 points of damage a hit with 50% accuracy. He has no defence other than the base.

With four attacks Hero 2 causes Hero 1 only 200 points of damage. (thats 800 - 75% for defence) Hero 1 dies in two hits and Hero 1 needs to attack only 8 times.

With four attacks Hero 1 causes Hero 2 only 100 points of damage. (thats 200 - 50% for defence) He'd need to attack 56 times to win.

Naturally we see here that the SR scrapper dies with ease, thats what you'd expect from what you're saying. However now consider this.

Hero 3 (level 10) (martial arts/invulnerability) 400 hitpoints
Hero 4 (level 50) (assault rifle/ice manipulation) 1400 hitpoints

Hero 3 is attacking for 50 points of damage a hit with 50% accuracy. He also has a 30% resistance to damage.

Hero 4 is attacking for 200 points of damage a hit with 50% accuracy. He has no defence other than the base.

With four attacks Hero 4 causes Hero 3 around 280 points of damage. (thats 800 - 50% defence less 30% damage) Hero 3 dies in two hits and Hero 4 needs to attack only 8 times.

As you can see because the damage isn't scaled but accuracy and defence is anyone with resistance rather than defence suffers very baddly in PvP because they'll take more damage. That is naturally unacceptable. If you're going to create an 'even con' system for PvP then it needs to take damage, accuracy, defence and resistance into account or else its unfair. The same can be said for hold/mez/sleep ect.. magnitude which usually effects lower level foes more than equal level ones.

The battle field needs to be leveled to get the most enjoyment out of PvP.

I'd never suggest such a system be implemented for PvE in general. it would just prevent the feeling of progressing through the game.

If you want some fiction for why all heroes and villains are equal levels then here's something which would fit the Paragon City theme.

All heroes naturally have a security level, this is not them developing but them being ALLOWED to train in certain powers that they inherantly have but you need to be skilled enough and trusted enough to use within the city limits. Thus all heroes are equal and so are villains. The difference is that while heroes need to have the cities permittion to use certain powers the villains need to have permittion from their allied villain organisations because they need to earn their trust before being allowed to wield more of your powers openly.

When you think about it if you have all heroes and villain con even to one another similar to the 'monster con' system then you'd still need a group of lower level heroes to take on a level 50 player.

Imagine the kind of havoc a level 50 controller could play with a level 1 tanker even in such a system. They could drop his defences with a hold and have the pets pound them into the ground so they wouldn't even need to maintain their damage bonus to win because they just have better tactics. However if you had a two controllers fighting one another than the higher one would still win because of the pets.

Thus you'd probably need around 3 low level heroes to take on a single level 50 controller. Which is actually quite fair and enjoyable.

(edit) In respect to the giant box of cookies bet. I'll geniuely take that bet and you can have that in writing. As much as you have the bullies who like to totally overpower and one-shot lowbies you'll find even more people who don't like getting one shotted and would enjoy and more fair system in which all heroes reguardless of level were fair game. Come to think of it... even the bullies will complain about being one-shotted by someone higher than them.

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As I said, there ARE things that can be done and we're looking at them right now. It may not be a level range cap but there are things...

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I can see the scenario now...

Doctor Death: *yawn* What a nice day, I think I'll find some heroes to pound into the ground since I trained in my new Ultradeath megaball attack last night.

*moments later Dr Death teleports into Independance Port*

Doctor Death: Mwahahahaaa, run foolish heroes I am her for your souls.

*a hero appears from the Steel Canyon entrance, stop suddenly and stares up at Doctor Death*

Doctor Death: Ahhh. One of those puny Freedom Flight heroes. I despise them and their leader the Crimson Jade!

Freedom Fighter X: Hey Doc, you *bleep* your momma's *bleep* and *bleeeeeeeeeep*

Doctor Death: Now you die!!!

*activates his Ultramega deathball... but it stops*

Doctor Death: Noooo.. I am powerless against this level 15 and his ultra incredible 'level cap' power!!!

*He then turns around to see Crimson Jade*

Doctor Death: Mwahahaha.. you fool. You have outleveled me. Your powers are nothing against me now Mwhahaaaaaa.


*days later*

Paragon City news reporter: In breaking news Doctor Death managed a complete take over of Kings Row last night during a raid that lasted only a few minutes as he stormed the cities main police station. Saddly no heroes of suitable security clearence were able to prevent this disaster and Statesman was quoted to say "Sorry, I'm cleared for Security Level 50 and I'm not allowed to attack a level 28 supervillain you know so don't blame me"



.. so that level cap ideas sounds like a really good idea from a fiction point of view eh?

[ QUOTE ]
This is actually a much better description of how the "monster code" works.

Oh -- and everyone let's be calm. There's still a lot of time and a lot of testing before anything is finalized.

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Frankly I'd say you should ask the community what we think about making all heroes con even to each other. You cannot deny as a developer that by allowing more interaction between players you're making the game more appealing however if you allow for highbies to attack lowbies then you're creating a frustrating situation.

How many people reading this would object to being able to be on even footing for damage and accuracy against another hero and let the powers themselves decide the outcome?

Me personally, its a fantastic solution from a gameplay point of view.

I know that the 'comic cultists' who try to partner City of Heroes to their favourite marvel/dc character universe would argue otherwise. 'The Hulk would ALWAYS beat up Spiderman in a straight fight' they'll say or 'Superman would totally own the Joker' so the shame should happen in the game.

But this isn't the comics, its City of Heroes and this is a universe with some balance to it for the sake of the game. Thats why you don't have tank mages so why break from common sense just to follow the trend of every MMO and RPG that has gone before? I know the publishers are nervous about 'new' ideas and want to stick to the tried and tested methods however PvP can be a messy issue because of its high griefing potential and that can cost the company player accounts even if they did consent to that aspect of the game.

Wouldn't it be nice to have as many heroes and villains involved in PvP because they don't have to worry about stepping out of a mission and being one-shooted by some level 50 twelve year old? If you make accuracy and damage as if everyone is even con at least you'd need to hit someone half a dozen times to defeat them.

As you said, alot of time and alot of testing yet to come. So why not give both systems and try on the test center for the PvP Arena in Issue 4 and see which works best?

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The problem with scaling damage up or down based on target level is that you're basically denying the higher level player the just reward he's earned for leveling his character. If a level 10 shooting at a level 40 does 40th level damage, what's the point? They should not be on a equal footing. The 40th level player has presumably worked hard to earn his extra hp and his larger damage, so it is unfair to strip that from him. Scaling up the level 10's damage to the level 40's equivalent does just that.

Lord Recluse

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I have to totally disagree there, in this situation I'd say that its not damage which defines the heroes... its the powers. I don't care if I hit and see 10 damage over the other players head or hit and see 10000 because the fact is that I hit them and I have all these other powers to attack with as well.

Yes a higher level character SHOULD recieve a bonus in PvP and frankly it should be the powers that supply that. A level 1 with 2 powers should be able to go against a level 50 character and yes they'd have a damned hard time winning with the damage scaled simply because of the higher level heroes have dozens of more powers and slots.

Its kind of like being examplared, I lose the powers but keep the slots bonus. Or I'm sidekicked and I gain a damage and defence bonus but stuck with only the powers I originally had.

You claim that people won't enjoy it... how about you stop assuming that people won't and try it? You want to innovate so in beta give it a go, break from the tried and tested MMO PvP gudelines like you did when you made a Superhero themed MMO and give this a try. What will it honestly hurt since no one has tried if before?

Here is the a few points to consider...

1. No more ganking lowbies.. at all
This would eliminate the one-shots because there would be no way to do it, fighting a lowbie does mean you might win however they don't suddenly get defeated before they got a shot off. Wouldn't it be nice to have the first MMO with PvP where in order to kill a lowbie you actually need to make an effort, yes you'll probably win because you have more powers however it'll be a longer fight with the chance for the lowbie to actually win!

No penalty to attacking lowbies will be enough
Plain and simple, if you allow a level 50 to maintain their damage over a level 1 then you WILL find people who attack the lowbies out of sheer spite. If you place a loss of influence on it then so what, they'd just build up the influence surplus and do it. And the fact is that customer service won't be allowed to punish them because it'll be within the rules of the game. If you have a debt punishment then people can still work it off.

....and finally the big pro for scaling damage to make all heroes an equal level in PvP....

A huge PvP player base and reused content
The ability to attack more people is inherantly fun, its not good to be wandering around looking for someone who is your level. If you make all heroes equal level than you ensure that higher level players make use of the lower level zones and content. Thus making then appreciate things they'd not have any reason to go and see. You want to make zones have a theme to them but what good is that for a level 50 who is never going to have a reason to return to Kings Row or Perez Park?

Overal I see alot of pros and only one con and that one is because you and your team is ASSUMING that us players wouldn't like to have this damage/accuracy equalizer. Me personally, I'd not care and I'm sure I'm not alone make everyone an even con to one another and let the powers and tactics decide who is the actual winner. It'll be a battle of pure skill then not one of stats and levels.