Synaesthetix

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The advantage that both the blaster and corruptor ATs have is that they can do enough damage to avoid getting mezzed.

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All the Bonesmashers and Blazes in the world won't prevent a Blind. What you would have been more accurate in saying is "The advantage that both the blaster and corruptor ATs have is that they can do enough damage UNTIL getting mezzed." I can put out as much damage as you could ask for, but that doesn't matter a damn if I'm stood motionless in the middle of the road. Let's not forget though that Controllers aren't the only ones with mezzing powers - most Blasters and Defenders have access to some form of control, hard or soft.

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On top of this the blaster AT has the toggle dropping advantage, which I rightly believe they need. I completely agree with NB in that if toggle dropping was removed from blasters they would be outshined by scrappers.

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No-one's calling for it to be removed though, which is something the pair of you appear to have missed - those of us who have posted here have motioned that it should be toned down, which is apparently what's going to happen. I favour a graded system of toggle-dropping for Blasters based on level range, but I doubt we'll get it.

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Firstly can you give me examples of powers that controllers borrow from defenders that are more effective for controllers than defenders in pvp.

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Anything which is deemed to have a "control" component - currently, Controllers have a bonus to "control", and Defenders have a bonus to "buff/debuff". I think it was in a post that Castle made where he stated that the following attributes were classed as "control": Hold, Immobilise, Sleep, Disorient, Slow, Confuse. This means that powers in Kinetics, Storm, Rad and Trick Arrow are more effective for Controllers than they are for Defenders, which seems more than a little odd from the viewpoint that these are Defender primaries and Controller secondaries, although I appreciate that they've tried to differentiate the sets based on emphasising different elements within them. I also take issue with the fact that Slow is considered to be control, when it seems quite evident to me that it's a debuff - but I digress.

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In addition can you explain how these powers work against defenders in pvp.

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To a greater or lesser degree, it makes them less desirable as teammates when Controllers are available to team with as an alternative - if there's a choice between the same set, but backed up with a pocketful of control instead of a handful of sub-blaster-damage blasts, which do you pick as Joe Average? This has the knock-on-effect of pushing Defenders away from PvP, especially those with non-standard builds.

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that I believe is largely due to the fact that controllers have mez protection. If there is one thing we can all agree on its that toggle dropping kills. Imagine a rad defender and a rad controller. A rad defender would spend his time running around the map trying not to get killed, constantly being aware of his BF intake rate so that he isn’t caught out and his toggles don’t drop. A rad controller wouldn’t have to waste time with his BF intake count and will be able to concentrate on his buffs. He doesn’t have his toggles, like RI or EF, dropping every time someone holds him, he just gets on with the killing. In summary the controller has a higher chance of survivability than the defender and so is able to concentrate on buffs more than the defender. That is the root of the problem. This is the reason that controllers make better defenders than defenders.

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In which of the three current PvP zones would you get the idea that 'trollers have mez-protection? FF and Sonic Defenders/Controllers both have the possibility of some self mez-protection, everyone else is screwed until you get to Epics - even then, Indom Will isn't perma-able anymore. That pretty much scraps the entirity of the above, I have no idea where you were coming from there.

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I don’t believe you have played a level 50 defender (other than empathy) to an extent where you could possibly make an adequate judgement about what they do or do not need. Your more than welcome to, but don’t expect me to take it seriously.

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I draw my experiences from playing alongside Defenders in PvP zones, observing them, talking with them, and most importantly, listening to them. The only Defender sets I don't have first-hand experience of are Trick Arrow, and (amusingly) Empathy. Trying to blow me off because I haven't got a Rad to 50 is a extremely poor argument - debate the points I make on their own merits, not on your perceived judgement of me.

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I didn’t say that the US forum users were any more or less right than us. I was simply stating that there are people that perceive this as a problem. After all they do play the same game as us, surely their opinions count for something.

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I've been reading the US forums since before I ever installed CoH onto my hard-drive. I camped there after the Arenas were introduced, hoping to learn more from the wider community - and I did find some good information. However, like any intelligent and thoughtful human being, I can also sift out the good from the bad, the genuine complaints from the whining - and this issue I've placed in the latter.

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What do you do if you’ve run out of BFs?

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Buy more?

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If you don’t have a pocket empathy or kin friend?

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Make some? You might also want to find a Sonic friend (Clarity, Sonic Dispersion), or at the very least, a Stormy (O2 Boost) or Bubbler (Dispersion Bubble). Failing that, find someone who branched into the Medicine Pool (Stimulant)?

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If all the people you can find to pvp with are PUGs?

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I usually end up teaming with PUGs in the PvP zones, if my SG aren't around. Hell, sometimes I end up playing against my SG ([]they need a good slap from time to time[/i]).

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If you have a level 50 defender and don’t have the time to level another AT, more suitable to pvp, to level 50?

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Make the best of it you can. I have a level 50 AR/Dev and a level 45 Claws/SR - don't for one second presume I don't know the pain of having high-levelled "gimp" sets.

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What do you do if you’re a casual player like me? Give up? Go play another game? Come on to the forums and make a creative suggestion to alleviate the problem?

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Play the game as best you can in the time you have. I work 12 hour shifts, I can still find time to do a little bit each day I'm working... it helps that I can spend most of my working day checking the forums for information, admittedly.

Make all the suggestions you want, but be prepared to have people disagree with you on any number of points you raise, some of them in higher volume than others. As pointed out, even though I don't believe the problem exists, this "solution" would just not fit into the pace of CoX - it barely works with WoW.

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If you want to beat the [censored] out of tough single target you're better of rolling a scrapper.

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I guess we'll agree to disagree on that one.

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Scrappers even have a higher frontload damage with criticals.

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With the potential for criticals.

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Did someone say range? Lets just face it, you dont get kills at range unless you are a spines/* scrapper.

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That's not what I said, though - what I said was that a Blaster can open at range, close to melee, then kite at range if necessary, which remains true. Only Spines and Claws Scrappers can do the same, until Epics.

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Yes, a blapper can remove all my toggles in less than 10 secs. Captain Freon can even do it in less than 5 secs.

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I've removed 7 toggles in one attack, but that's by the by - my point was that any monkey currently playing a Blapper, with little-to-no skill involved, can detoggle someone in 10 seconds, and that's a conservative estimate.

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I still beat the [censored] out of him in the arena and hes one of the best on defiant.
Hell I even tried against Gatlin with the same result.

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And would you describe yourself as an average Scrapper? I've not seen you in action, but my impression is that you would appear to be playing towards the top end of the bell-curve, which is hardly fair basis for analysis of a situation that is more geared towards improving the situation for people within the middle and lower reaches.


The problem with detoggling is that it doesn't just affect Scrappers, Tanks, Brutes and Stalkers - it seriously affects Defenders, Controllers and Corruptors - even some MMs and Dominators - who arguably depend more upon their toggles than the aforementioned melee types do.

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I dont think you guys really understand the problem from a squishie point of view.

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The fact that you say toggle dropping is the biggest problems tells me that you most likely pvp with scrappers or tankers.

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Wrong on both counts - my main PvP toons are both squishies (Blaster/Corruptor), and I fail to see mezzing as an almighty problem. You either carry BFs, team with players with de-mezzing powers, you find other ways to avoid being mezzed, or you get mezzed. I don't know where you've been playing, but I've seen a healthy number of types of Defenders in the PvP zones in Union - Kinetic, Empath, Rad, Storm, Dark, FF - the only gap has been in Sonics and Trick Arrow. The main problem for Defenders isn't mezzing at all, it's that Controllers have access to the majority of the Defender primaries and have more useful powers on top of that, other than anaemic Blaster powers (generally speaking). Even worse, some Controller secondaries are more effective in PvP than Defender primaries - I understand this is being looked into, however. That in itself is more a problem for Defenders than mezzing is.

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Just as the squishy community on the US forums will tell you. Back when i was there it was the number one complaint that they had about pvp. Think about that before you say mezzing is not a problem.

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In absolute fairness, the US forums are hardly a haven of reason and logic - more a den of nerfherding and whining. If anyone has a perceived advantage, you can bet there'll be a chorus of complaints. Our community is sufficiently developed and matured so as to be able to decide for ourselves what the issues with PvP are - we certainly don't need to take any cues from the US.

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Also not one of you have given me an answer to my previous question.

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I came into this post late - remind me what that question was?

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Toggle dropping is what makes the blaster AT viable in PvP if they loose it in any extend, they will be outshined by scrappers. There will be no reason to roll a blaster instead of a scrapper.

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A much higher sustainable DPS is the reason to roll a Blaster, pure and simple. As things stand currently, I can be fairly sure of removing all of an opponent's toggles in under ten seconds - regardless of whether I need to or not. Being able to do this occasionally, I have no issue with - being able to do this repeatedly, without failure, is something I feel needs to be addressed. I've had multiple instances now where my (33) En/En Blapper has been isolated by Brutes in Sirens, TF'd down to half-health-or-below, recovered from the disorient without BF's, hit Energy Punch > Bonesmasher > Energy Punch > Stun, and easily claimed the victory from there - all because of toggle-dropping. Maybe I'm just awesome, or just maybe it's that toggle-dropping is out of kilter - and as much as the former is true , I'm minded to think that the latter is too.

Blapping shouldn't be an instant-win scenario in a PvP zone, be it against Scrappers or anyone else - even without toggle-dropping, Blasters still have a significant advantage against Scrappers, in being able to engage at range, and kite if necessary. Given your sentence - "blasters mature faster for PVP" - is it not right that they shouldn't gain any more benefits at lower levels?

Personally, I'd be very much in favour of a scaling toggle-dropping system, where toggle-dropping powers increase in effectiveness at different level ranges. Maybe at the top level, there might be scope for the current figures as they stand - I'd have to wait until the CoV cap raises to 50 and assess the impact of that on the new PvP zone before making a comment on that - but the system as it is is imbalanced and needs rectifying.

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Maybe I missed a meeting or something, but the Timebomb from the devices powerset seems to be fairly pointless to me.

You can't lay it whilst using invisibility, so unless someone ELSE can grant invis on you you can't lay it in the middle of a group and leg it. As it's a fixed 15 second timer before detonation, it's hard to see how you could lay it and then reliably get an opponent to come over and stand on/near it till it explodes. Even if you use caltrops/web grenade and a stopwatch, I dunno, to me it just seems way too fiddly to be of any real use. More so given that you can just use multiple Trip Mines to get a similar (but far more reliable) effect.

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Simple: set Time Bomb > Corner Pull > Retreat > Drop Caltrops on mobs > BOOM. You can do variations with Auto Turret, if you're clever. You can also use it against AVs/Elite Bosses if you have a Tank with half a brain.

It's all a matter of timing - and there's nothing to say you can't use TM and TB in combination in this way.

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As for toggles, leave them alone. How am i meant to have a chance against mr stalker and mr brute if i cant drop his toggles?

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Speaking as a Blapper, toggle-dropping in PvP has gone too far - it doesn't need to be removed, but it needs to be toned down in the interests of fairness.

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Death shroud, 1x taunt 1x end reduce

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You'll want to double-slot DS for accuracy too - no good it costing endurance, even at a lowered rate, if it doesn't hit anything. You just have to be conservative with the usage, is all.

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-Drop the single immo (stone prison) its of very limited use, and keep the AoE immo (stone cages).

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Depends entirely on the type of Controller you want to build - if you want to enjoy any real Containment damage as an Earth/*, taking Stone Prison is the best way to go about it. With a fast recharge, and a decent rate of DPS/DPE, it's certainly a help in those times when you're either soloing, or are needed to provide some damage output. If you're going for a purely "team control" build you can probably skip it, but at the cost of ignoring your inherent power - YMMV.

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TA is a great Controller secondary, much better than as a Defender primary. When Purple Sprite gets to 35 and has tried all the powers I am going to write a guide.

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Oh, I'm not criticising Trick Arrow as a powerset - I've pimped it as a great 'troller tool ever since I theorised about the horrors a Mind/TA could wreak (right on these very boards); I'm just exasperated by Smokie changing his toon a-[censored]-gain. >_<

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No point into turning this into the Weasel/Synaesthetic show but one point made me wonder.

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Okay, you can stop guesting for now.

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ED removed some of the more strategic ways I can play and often resorts me to Kobi Yashi Naru.

That is bad, whatever happens.

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When old strategies fail to work, new strategies must be developed. Out of curiosity, what can't you do now that you could do prior to ED?

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Regarding sets that are laugable.

For example, a comparison of something like an archery/devices blaster against a fire/kin controller. Which was the stronger build prior to ED? Which got hit the hardest by ED? I think you'd be hard pushed to say that the answer to both those questions wasn't the same, and by a fairly considerable margin.

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This is what happens when you fail to take all changes into account - you can't look at ED in isolation, you have to see it as a change in a panoply of changes. With the changes made to Controllers - AoE hold adjustments, the lack of multiple Pets - you cannot say they haven't been rebalanced more fairly. The introduction of Containment makes levelling controllers far easier than it ever used to be, but the changes made have resulted in them being far less "uber" than they were post-32. Archery/Dev, on the other hand, really lost nothing more than the ability to 6-slot for damage; from my experience with AR/Devices, the most effective way to slot for DPS (generally speaking) was 2 RecRec/4 Dam anyway with Perma Hasten - so the ED changes are hardly a crushing blow, from my PoV.

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ED hit hardest people who slotted their powers with 5 or 6 of the same enhancements, certain character types were more likely to do this. Not all the character types that did this were comparatively strong to start with, not all were weaker ones were either I'm well aware, but it didn't matter, it was arbitrary. If you 5 or 6 slotted most of your powers with the same enhancment type then you got hit quite hard, regardless of how strong the build was to start with. OK that's an over-simplification of the situation, but there's also a good element of truth in it as well.

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There may indeed be elements of truth in it, but that doesn't result in laughable/unplayable toons, as is the general supposition. Recently, I've been flying through the levels on my poor, abused Claws/SR - on paper, ED should have seen him reduced to the level of "weak kitten", but I have to report that he really isn't. I do have more trouble playing him than pre-ED, of course - I get into the red more frequently, push my limits more often, and end up bein slightly more cautious in certain situations than before... but I can still charge headlong into AVs and GMs, and come out the other side breathing.

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Powernova, I've seen a sonic/energy blaster play, teamed with one for about 35 levels on one of my characters, and it certainly looked pretty decent. He seemed to be quite impressed with it although I always got the impression he didn't think it was as good as his ice blaster. I'd be interested to hear how it plays with a weaker secondary if anyone has one.

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My gf has a Sonic/Devices Blaster - it plays really quite effectively, and certainly doesn't appear to lack any "oomph", so to speak.

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Im already have restless nights trying to weight up which travel power makes most sence, and whether i actually need stamina with this build...

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*/Dark is an end hog, Fire/* chews through blue as well. If you can make it without Stamina, I'd be massively surprised.

On the plus side, I like the look of Spirit Tree.

It works for EU servers as well - the only issue at the moment (although it's scheduled to be fixed) is that there could be issues with Global name conflicts if a player on the EU servers has the same Global name as someone on the US servers... so sign up quickly before someone "steals" your name. The icons (points to avatar) work perfectly, though.

To whit, my profile is here. It all works perfectly, and the installer is completely painless, and I've not had any issues with it yet. It tracks characters as soon as you log into them (providing you have the program running, of course ), and updates it onto the site pretty much instantly.

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Spirit tree is good and is basically like having slotted health, but of course it means you're gonna have to stay stationary in a pvp zone, which means you're gonna die

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... unless you have heavy support, which means everything's going to run away from you. And if you have that much support, you definitely don't need Spirit Tree. Ah well.

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hmm on the subject of power polls does stealth sound completely like the ramblings of a madman for a brute? you know to get right in the middle of the mobs before staryong to smash em

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But if they're firing at you before you get there, you build up Fury, which should technically work to your advantage.

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Fair enough. Good points made, but I'd still see Nova as a complementary power now rather than a must have power; as it's effectiveness in most situations is limited at best.

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Well, I know I don't have it on my En/En - I've never had it (apart from playing about on Test), and never planned on taking it... and Doctor Gonzo has the Celebrant badge, so I'd tender the point that every power is, has been, and forever will be "optional".

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My problem is that a number of the 'changes' have been as a result of heavily swayed arguments and just because something has become 'canon', doesn't mean that those of us that don't like it should bow down to it's almighty rule.

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Neither does it mean you should bring out the famiy hyperbole at every available opportunity. There's nothing wrong with having and voicing a differing opinion - but "zomg ED sux ", as these things invariably devolve into (in general, not targeted at you), is hardly a valid opinion. Likewise, a reasoned argument requires no emotional exclamation mark to further its validity.

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If ED had promised what it's title suggested, it would have been a godsend. Enhancements that can change the personality of the character; what it seemed/seems to be is a heavy-handed force towards easier numbers to deal with.

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What it has done is to level the playing field to allow those who do not furiously min/max to be on a par with those who do. In addition with other changes, it's helped to shorten the distance between "t3h ubz0r" builds, and wacky concept builds. It's also made the game more challenging in places, which I'm very much in favour of.

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Meh. For every Hooray, there has to be a Doooom; and maybe it's better to keep saying "It wasn't that good" rather than just "I'm leaving and taking my friends."

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There really doesn't, you know. It might seem that way, but there's no reason why we have to have this carry-on every time something gets changed. As to the latter part of the sentence - sometimes it's certainly debatable in certain cases (again, not pointed at yourself).

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As for the 'swallowing a few blues' counter; should we really expect that every major change means we should respec/ store needed inspirations? That makes it far more a number-crunch than the original game ever was.

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Um... that's always been the case for Nova powers, Weez, not anything that has been introduced by ED. The only reason that you might not have needed to use Insps prior to ED is because everything was already dead, letting you recover in peace - now you need to put a little more thought into it, which is far from number crunching, and much more along the lines of strategic gameplay. Is that really so bad?

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[ot] What's that fancy avatar of yours, Cybercel? [/ot]

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http://www.citygametracker.com/default.aspx

A great little program developed to work with CoH/CoV.

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Ill check with Jazz Noir on defiant for that. I thought i had a restart problemuntil meeting our Jazz. Not an alt that hasnt been remademore than 5 times Im sure.

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I know of at least 6 permutations of Smoking Demon off the top of my head - Dark Miasma/Dark Blast Defender; DM/DA Scrapper (got to the 30's before being deleted); Dark Miasma/Trick Arrow Defender; Archery/Fire Blaster; BS/Regen Scrapper; Fire/Fiery Assault Dominator (current). Sadly, I think I'm possibly missing some variations as well.

Luckily, he has a handy network of friends to shout at him whenever he deletes/recreates a new toon, hopefully we've beaten it out of him by now.

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Smoking Demon was remade earlier today as Fire/Trick Arrow Controller.

*sighs*

If anyone sees him out on the streets of Paragon, feel free to punch him in the head as hard as you can.

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You seem in a bit of a bad mood today Syn. Have another coffee, seriously.

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I'm not in a bad mood in the slightest, I'm just disagreeing with you. Don't confuse my lack of sugarcoating on my words and lack of as my being angry or in an otherwise negative frame of mind, I'm just making my points plainly and clearly. And I don't drink coffee unless it's heavily disguised.

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As I can pump Explosive blast, but pumping Nova has less effect as I'm already closing on Damage Cap; then using two /three Explosive blasts is cheaper/more efficient/safer/faster/less chance of danger/less annoying than one Nova.

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MaX already cleared up the first part, so I'll leave that alone; on the second part, I'll just say that the chances of you firing off three EBs and hitting every target every time (hence keeping the same DPS) is going to be damned difficult - not only because of the way accuracy works, but because of the Knockback inherent in EB. Seriously, those mobs are going to be everywhere after the first blast, you've got no chance of keeping up the DPS in the manner you stated.

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For a Tier 9 power to do similar effects to a Tier 6/7; but to cripple you at the same time seems wrong to me; as you could just chain Tier 2/4/6 (for instance) and acheive the same effect of the Tier 9 with none of the associated risks.

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A lot of the preamble to this point is far too generalised to really debate properly, so I won't bore myself and everyone else by nitpicking through the specifics. This quote, however, is just plain wrong - for burst damage, no other primary power will come close to matching the nuke, either in Single-Target or AoE damage. As a result, there's a penalty to pay - but one that can be avoided by swallowing a few blues - which is hardly "crippling".

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And I really don't post this on every other posts; a lot of mine are constructive; well-meaning or just silly.

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Whenever the subject of ED comes up, you generally pop up with an "ED " comment - which is a shame, because I enjoy reading your posts otherwise (be they silly or constructive). If you have a point to make on any given subject, throwing in (what appears to be obligatory by now) "ed sux" at any point just tends to detract from anything you have to say. The ED-donkey's getting liquefied at this point; unless we all want mule-smoothies, it would really be best just to let it seep away.

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ED on the other hand was an abitrary and badly thought out "accross the board" solution, which actually ended up hitting some character types a lot lot harder than others, and it wasn't always the best ones that were hit the hardest. I'm absolutely certain that not all the implications for all the power sets were considered before it was implemented, and it left us with a few sets that really are quite laugable now, and others, which were good anyway, being comparatively unscathed other than the fact they've lost perma-hasten.

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Not to labour the issue, but could you give examples? I think there's a great deal of difference between perception and reality on this issue, but I'm interested in hearing the power sets you consider "laughable" since the inception of ED.

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Slightly unfair on that point Syn; but I think that Statesman blase dismissal of 2000+ posts about ED, including some VERY good points is wrong; and I would prefer that it's looked into at some point.

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And including some very POOR non-points as well. I don't blame the guy for not responding to address what amounts only to a difference of perspective, even in the better posts - he's stated that he's happy with the overall effect of ED, and whilst some might see that as a brusque response, it's still a response. The Dev Team are still analysing (and changing) powersets on an individual basis - for my money, it would be far more productive and positive to fully detail any problems you think exist in a powerset/power and suggest possible feasible changes, than to keep banging the drum with "Yay ED ", which smacks somewhat of throwing the rattle out of the pram. A practical, rational argument is far more persuasive than an emotional one, at the end of the day.


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Really? I'd find a 2 second animation, with slightly more damage than Explosive Blast followed by 15 seconds of High Aggro/No End; less of a tool and more of a crutch.

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(my highlight)
This is part of the reason why I find your argument weak - stating something that is demonstrably not true only serves to dilute any point you have. Nova does far more damage than Explosive Blast, trying to state otherwise is at best sophistry, at worst deliberately misleading.

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Ill check with Jazz Noir on defiant for that. I thought i had a restart problemuntil meeting our Jazz. Not an alt that hasnt been remademore than 5 times Im sure.

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I know of at least 6 permutations of Smoking Demon off the top of my head - Dark Miasma/Dark Blast Defender; DM/DA Scrapper (got to the 30's before being deleted); Dark Miasma/Trick Arrow Defender; Archery/Fire Blaster; BS/Regen Scrapper; Fire/Fiery Assault Dominator (current). Sadly, I think I'm possibly missing some variations as well.

Luckily, he has a handy network of friends to shout at him whenever he deletes/recreates a new toon, hopefully we've beaten it out of him by now.

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No, like Hasten, it decreases the recharge time on all your powers.

Unlike Hasten, it doesn't take a chunk of end off after it's wore off, and it's also active all the time.

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... it also increases your movement speed (which is why you can slot it with Run Speed enhancements) in addition to providing res to Slow and increasing attack rate (by 20%, IIRC).

Seeing as you cannot slot it for Jump/Flight enhancements, ExtraGonk, I don't believe it has an effect on those travel powers.

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Sounds horribly familar to me. Apart from the Icon/Facemaker part - I can never afford it.

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I swear that Smoking Demon (currently a Fire/Fiery Assault Dom, although that could change by tomorrow) must be the most remade character on the EU servers.

And are you saying that Rockjaw won't even lend you a few inf for a new cossie?

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I'll be on thursday at 20:00

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I'll be around at about that time, and could probably be convinced to bring my level 31 Fire/Kin to be exemped down, seeing as I haven't done the respec on her yet. I'm guessing I should be around from Thursday afternoon onwards, so if anyone wants me, just /tell me @Syn.