SwellGuy

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I am so sick of this entire debacle I honestly wish they would remove MA from the game, just take is all out, strip the badges, I don't care..... just make it gone.

I feel that this is the most serious danger the game has ever been in, due to punitive actions of this and that sort, which have been discussed to death... friends are leaving over the nerfs, let's just roll it back to the way it was and let people try to heal.

The whole thing is a giant negativity-sink and.... and I know they're not going to take it out but I really feel that would be the best outcome. This is going from bad to worse, as in floods of people leaving.

I don't want my MMO to die. And it feels like the MA/related issues are killing it. I'm just very sad

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DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This post made FABULOUS[/b] with CoH FOE!

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That reminded me of the old "Brought to you in Technicolor." they used to say for TV shows back in the olden days of yesteryear.

15-19. There are only a few times where you need to train up to move on but contacts and missions' level aren't those.

No deleting of contacts from the list. The old ones go away when you outlevel them unless they have an open arc or a new contact to give you.

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Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.

Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.

The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.

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Just have to point out.... as you noted with your 50's none of them even came close to the leveling speed you proposed in your example.

So based on your experience with the game, if you were leveling this theoretical character and you reached Level 40 in 6 hours or something, wouldn't you, looking at what the range of normal leveling speeds you have had previously think that it was odd you were able to do it at less than 1/10th of your previous fastest?

I mean, I believe that Tribal wants a challange. But his experience with game and his knowledge of its mechanics makes it hard to believe that the leveling speed of the characters is question wasn't well outside the range of his normal experience.

I just don't see how someone can level eight 50's and have the quickest one come in at 175 hours, and then would even have to wonder if leveling to 50 in 12 hours was abnormal. I could see it if you said, 50 in 100 hours, but a 50 in 12 hours would seem to fall so far outside what could be considered normal through previous experience and just plain common sense, that it is hard to believe that someone would think, "oh I guess they just decided to make leveling completely trivial in this patch."

While they have made it easier to level, the idea that the intent of MA was to make it even easier by a factor of 10 just doesn't ring true. Especially since the "we don't want people farming it" was already out there before release. Add it up and the case for "I didn't know that was too fast" seems kind of weak.

IMO.

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When it took me 600 hours, people were doing it in a 2xp weekend (approximately 15-20 hours of playing as they would explain it).

So, if I could cut my time to 1/3 that left them at 5-7 hours on a 2xp weekend, no? So a normal, non-2xp would be 10-14 hours for them if they could get the same time reduction rate I was now experiencing.

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In my opinion, logging a character in for a few minutes a day, flipping slots, and profiting immensely, should be acknowledged by the devs as "aberrant gameplay" and steps should be taken to ensure that it isn't orders of magnitude more rewarding than playing the game "normally."

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I'm new here and I started a thread last week asking why it was so easy to buy a recipe, craft it, and profit enormously. The general consensus was that it's a choice the players make. Players are willing to pay for not "wasting their time" buying and crafting stuff. So I do it for them and make a ton of money. I don't understand how that's aberrant.

Could you please expand on your statement, because I've been trying to understand this opinion (you and many others like you seem to hold it) and I just can't. Like I said, I'm new here. I'm not trying to flame or troll or trap you, I'm just trying to understand.

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If you want to understand them, you need to disengage objective thinking about the markets and how they work and simply feel that it is wrong to use the market as marketeers do.

I've been defending the flippers for going on two years now and I just get ignored as a flipper by that type of poster/player.

They are stuck in the pre-I9 stores mindset we had for 3 years and some eventually get it and break out of it but most do not.

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It is superior labor and it doesnt take professional "Marketeers" to make the world go round. I have already given one blatant reason why producing new inf or drops is more intensive labor (superior) and the others are not very difficult to understand either. If you missed it, shame on you. I see no way of viewing it in any other logical fashion outside of blatantly deceiving myself.

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I don't want to fan any flames here, but I strongly disagree that generating inf through drops is somehow "superior" or "more intensive" labor than making inf on the market. It's just different. Generating inf through drops takes more time and to me is boring. Making money on the market takes a lot of thought, research and planning. It's not like we just arbitrarily put up bids and money falls in our laps.

The strongest argument I can give, though, is empirical evidence. The fact is, lots and lots of people don't marketeer. They don't want to put the time and effort into doing the research and planning. To them it's harder or more intensive work than "just playing the game". People like me and people like you have completely different OPINIONS on what's the superior form of labor.

And to address your specific example of making money while you're offline, that's not when you're making the money. All the money is made in the research and planning stages. After that it's just a matter of waiting for it to come to you. Just because the money flows when I'm offline, doesn't mean that's when I'm doing (or NOt doing, as you would imply) the labor. You think I just decided to start playing the market, picked a random IO, and started making 10-15m per sale? It took a lot of time and effort and a spreadsheet or two. Shame on you for discounting the amount of work that we put in.

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Just use that poster as an example of an anti-market person who tries to play/pretend and possibly even fool themselves into believinig they aren't. They treat certain market forces as extraneous to the process rather than part of the necessary process.

Basically, they don't get that the real market is the players using it not the database or interface.

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I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.


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No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.

You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.

They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.

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Im sorry but I do not consider using the Market alone to gain influence in the same vein as I consider generating an actual product.

One is labor the other is using the fruits of someones labor to generate revenue. We definitely disagree on that point. Its similar to saying collecting/generating interest on $1000 requires the same amount of effort (labor) as actually generating that wage through work.

You can call me whatever you want and try to lump me into whatever group you deem appropriate. There are DEFINITIVE differences between the two "types of work" we are discussing. Not the least of which; Marketing can be done while you are offline while generating a product (new influence, salvage, recipes) can not be done offline.

Seriously man, quit pushing your agenda so hard and think about what you are attempting to argue about here. I am not someone who cares one way or another, but I wont let you post things that are simply ridiculous without calling you on it. Especially when you are replying directly to, and selectively quoting, my posts.

I am not interested in arguing semantics with someone on the Market forum or defending every post I make from ridiculous assertions. If thats what your goal is, I am afraid I wont be playing along much longer.

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I never wrote it was the same. I wrote that it was labor. I bet there are more people who would scoff at you defining playing the game and getting drops as labor than have ever played an MMO.

You do care or you wouldn't claim some superior labor to the marketeers.

You seem to believe there is some virtue in getting drops to bring to market. I am trying to point out to you that without those marketeers you wouldn't be able to sell most of your drops except to NPCs and there would be no amount of inf that would be able to buy certain items.

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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.

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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?

This is the underlying problem with that rationale.

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Exactly. If your SOLE metric is time... then you're simply trying to cover bad game design. You create something that specifically allows your players to do things you don't want them to, (level quicly) and instead of making changes to your product, you put some threat to those that might use your product to it's fullest and retroactively ban accounts for doing just that.

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Sadly enough, no matter how often I try to explain this point to people, they simply assume I am a dirty exploiting PLer who did it.

Me and my whole army of 8 50s over 5 years. Where I have seen average leveling time through normal solo play on the lowest difficulty drop from 600 hours to 175.

The devs have made leveling easier and now are complaining people are doing it too fast. It boggles my mind.

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I'm not saying I am in favor of you getting your account banned. I'm only saying that from what I've seen you had to be going pedal to the metal to get a character deleted, so I can only infer you had to be in full-frenzy mass PL mode to get your account banned. If you weren't farming that map heavily then I'd say you have good grounds to appeal the punishment and get it overturned.

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So, if someone created a character and sped their way to 50 through normal content, say Task Forces, and got from 1 to 50 in say 12 hours, wouldn't that be pedal to the metal? Should those characters also get deleted?

This is the underlying problem with that rationale.

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I agree that the Market enables others to prosper due to the actions of others. I am someone who doesnt mind that. I know when i sell low and buy high, repeatedly, someone who enjoys the Market mini-game is getting wealthy off of my labor.


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No, they are getting wealthy off of their labor. THIS displays your underlying error.

You are choosing to sell at the price you choose, just like I do, to get their inf now or you are choosing to pay buy it now prices to save your time, just like I do.

They are taking the time and effort to buy and sell patiently to the sell it now and buy it now crowds. They provide a service to save me time. If you could see that you might get it but you don't so you won't. Just like the clueless market haters.

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It is much less obvious to me that this is a true problem. As long as everyone's buying and selling the same stuff, does it matter if we tack a zero onto the end of every price? Not much.[u] It may make a difference, though, to the ignorant and the new; the people who haven't grasped the simple-to-us principles of buying and selling.[u] I find it inelegant to have ever-increasing prices; that doesn't mean that the prices themselves are a problem.

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This is a HUGE assumption on your part and one that I can not agree with. Frankly, I am surprised to see you post it considering how broad the generalization actually is.

I dont want to state the obvious but it will make me feel a bit better, so I will. The Market can be used to generate influence/infamy without ever "playing" the game outside of using the Market.

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Just because it amuses me...

Stating the obvious about your broad generalization:

If you never play the game outside the market you will have nothing to start up in the market with and you cannot do anything in the market if you have nothing.

Barring someone spotting you some free inf, you will not be able to buy/sell in the market without first getting inf from playinng the game.

I really don't care what some anti-market whiners think of people only playing the market any more than an RPer should care what people think of them RPing or any other subclassification of players should think of what another subclassification thinks.

People should play the game they enjoy and quit worrying about everyone else and leave that to NCSoft.

People hate the markets because they are stupid, lazy or unwilling to mind their own business. There is no valid intelligent reason to hate the markets. Only irrational emotional reasons.

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One thing to keep in mind is the fact that the 60 day rule is gone.

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When did this happen? confirmation plz.

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Issue 14 release notes

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ya but a pillbox isnt in taskforce

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huh?

you do know that as of issue 14 that pool Cs can drop from bosses now, right?

It's in the freaking patch notes.

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And is the very subject of this thread.

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Yeah that's the other thing I was wondering about. How anyone could think that one group of players, especially a group as small as the ebil marketeers, could influence the devs one way or another. Most devs are proud of listening to user feedback and then doing whatever the [censored] they feel like. Just because the devs do something that we may agree with, doesn't mean we MADE them do anything.

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Of cousre the marketeers can't do that, that's the job of the Forum cartel, which doesn't exist and certainly if it did exist, they wouldn't be letting SwellGuy borrow the Van again.

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Roll a couple vehicles and get a bad reputation you can never shake...

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Quote from the thread.

"Worse, in my opinion, many proponents of the market system actively block some fixes to other aspects of the game that would greatly improve player's enjoyment of the game."

I never knew we had such power.

/is scared now

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I was actually wondering about that when I read it. I feel like I'm on my way to becoming an ebil marketeer and I'm unable to fathom the...derision in which you're held by some other players. "You guys on the market forum come over here and..." as if there's some invisible boundary. We're on on the CoX forums...

What did you guys do to them before I got here? lol

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Nothing. They (those kind of posters not all base builders) lump anyone who likes the market as a market manipulator and put their fingers in their ears (metaphorically) about any facts about the market and drops.

They (market haters) want the shiny IOs and haven't adjusted their pre-market inf values to the new reality. And here we are two years later and they still think a million is a lot of inf, 10 million is too much and 100 million is impossible.

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Can you get them PvP drops in the arena, or ONLY in PvP zones?

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I've gotten two in the Arena. I also got a Hami Goo drop off a player.

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Please explain "twitchy".

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You'll know it when you see it...

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True. I think we all also know what a dead guy is when he posts.

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I personally think you're doing something pretty twitchy if you can get to 50 in a month. But I've been here a long time and apparently getting to 50 in a week is standard fare now.

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Well, now you're simply displaying ignorance of levelling speeds and/or how to efficiently and non-exploitively to play the game.

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It was kind of a lighthearted example of how I feel, but you go there. Keep em commin.

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I soloed on villainous to 50 in 175 hours. Please explain "twitchy".

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I personally think you're doing something pretty twitchy if you can get to 50 in a month. But I've been here a long time and apparently getting to 50 in a week is standard fare now.

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Define a "month".

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Pacting wasn't intended to be used for this purpose. Everybody knows that, and if you claim to not know that I'm going to flatly call you a lair. Pacting was so two people could always enjoy the same content together more or less.

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That's why the feature was introduced, but it was immediately obvious to everyone involved that it could and would be used to get offline characters to high levels. As far as I know the devs are OK with this because the online character is only earning at 1/2 their normal speed, so there is no reward rate disparity involved.

I don't think pacting to 50 is an exploit, or abusive. That's an honest answer.

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But it is yet another example of how certain people will judge based on their own standards (and for some people those standards are completely arbitrary) what is and what is not abuse.

The "I know it when I see it" is a joke to me.

Some people say people flipping in the market is abuse.
Some people say leveling too fast is abuse (but they won't state any but the most obvious 1-50 in 4 hours or something).

A dev has stated it is okay to repeat content if I do it for the enjoyment but not the rewards. Now if anyone cannot see the inherent problem with that definition I know I cannot communicate with them.

I'm just tired of all the "you're doing it wrong" from players. There won't be anyone left if they all get to define it.

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Hrmph. You know it's abuse. You're going out of your way to be abusive of the system and to make a point of it. You know that too.


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how?
where's the definition for players to follow?

if they don't like it, they can step in. Absent a useful definition preventing 'abuse' is their job, not ours. Since they're the only ones who know where the boundaries are.

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Based on your arguments alone I'm positive you of all people don't actually need a verbatim definition. You're well and above smart enough to know.

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It seems for some people if you aren't cybering in Pocket D it is abusing the game.

Odds are he has no clue how the market works but thinks he does.

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Catwhoorg
Please spare me your lectures on how I don't know what a calender is. From other threads I know your grasp of how the earth moves though the times space continuum is limited at best. I am very aware that you don't understand the function of time.

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I think this pretty well sums up what needs to be done with this poster.

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Life:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>be_born();
while(!dead) {
do_stuff();
go_to_sleep();
wake_up();
}
echo "Rosebud...";
exit 0;</pre><hr />
The ultimate grind.

Still, it has it's moments, doesn't it?

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I need to get this framed.

Pretty much on most servers few were PvPing. The changes to PvP didn't seem to change that any.

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You remember it your way, I remember it mine.

I clearly remember ...

... hitting level 23 and buying some level 25 DO's, because I had to slot something and that was what I could afford when the old ones went red. All my Accuracies were SO's, but only about 1/3 of my Damage was.
... people not buying TO's or DO's so they could afford their SO's. Level 21 and not a thing slotted except with drops.
... people farming Mary MacComber for the SO drops.
... personally hunting those few Family that hung out in Steel by the IP gate, because level 20's dropped 1/3 DO's (level 19s dropped like 1/100 or something) and I needed the money.
... Being really excited when I found out that I could combine three SO's already in the power to make an SO++, because that meant I could get by with delaying 1/3 of my purchases to level 28.
... going to a new server, and building a "sugar momma" toon who got on teams with high-level characters, and asking them for DO's or TO's they would otherwise delete. Yeah, I had a Force Fielder that went with strangers for tips. I'm not proud. I had an SG to feed.
... making enough inf for my 45 and 50 SO's during level 41. Not "40 and 41", even. I was making ten times as much as I needed.

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Presently I'm lvl 39, I can sell stuff to vendors in between the 5 levels required for upgrade and afford my next SO's. I don't want to get into IO's until I reach a point where the only thing my Infamy is going towards are upgrades.

At one point the system was such that you couldn't get enough infamy through vendors to even do that much?

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Yep. There were no invention salvage or recipes to sell then. We only had our TO, DO and SO drops to sell. If you want to painfully check it out, delete all invention drops and only sell the enhancement drops to the vendors.