StratoNexus

Sigh.

Fortitude. Even on a weak team, everyone should have two. Three would be decent and 4+ would be skilled. Everyone on the team with +60% to 120% damage. Some of the defenders may even have Assault as well.

AB and Hasten become perma when you have AB. Even without Hasten, AB is just about perma (IIRC) when you have AB. Rolling Nukes. Since you have more recovery than the crash debuff, you can nuke and just carry on shooting and with AB your nukes recharge very fast.

Green Machine The Numbers of Green Machine

They don't need to stack past the 2nd one (except as protection from defense debuffs). When you have an 8 man team where none of them have any fear, they can just charge and toss out AoEs. Even vs +2s 8 Nrg Torrents kills the minions, 8 Explosive Blasts ends the Lts. And Nrg is not the greatest AoE set.

Sure, 8 emps have the defense and then also +recharge, +recovery, +regen, +to-hit, +damage, +perception, some heals, as well as protection from sleep, fear, -perception, and confuse (hey, emps don't get end drain resistance! <.< >.> ). But all that other stuff is just icing, since the FF team will take about 10-12 seconds to wipe spawns as opposed to the Emp team taking 5-6 (mmm rolling nukes). Endurance could be an issue on the FF team. 10-12 seconds is not terrible.

I do not believe an 8 man team of all controllers/defenders is necessarily better than a more balanced team. However, you can roll dice to choose 8 defender primaries and then roll dice to match them to 8 defender secondaries, and that team would own anything in the game, IMO. I cannot imagine ANY 8 defender team with reasonable power choices that would not stomp over ALL content in the game.

You said 8 emps would be slow! You said 8 FF defenders would be pretty bad! You should stop now, because you are not helping my cause.

Interesting. Is this how teams you are on usually roll? Do you often drop other ATs to grab defenders or controllers? Do you often bypass searching for other ATs, even once you already have 2 or 3 buff/debuff ATs on the team? Is it unlikely for you to start running missions with a team until you have 4 or more buff/debuff ATs on it?

I am guessing you do not play that way. Why then are you trying to make it seem like that is the way people play? What is the purpose of that paragraph? Are you trying to say that is how people should play because you think the buff/debuff ATs are clearly superior to all the other ATs? I am honestly asking, what are you trying to demonstrate with that paragraph?

I think the benefit of buff/debuff in normal missions is overhyped. I do not fail to see how good they can be, but I also do not fail to see how good a team can be when the tankers are absorbing most of the aggro. Heavy buff/debuff teams can be great. But I have seen amazing steamroll teams with just one or two buff/debuff ATs as well.

It is probably easier to steamroll content on heavy buff/debuff teams, because the skill level required to be successful may go down, if the buffs/debuffs are kept active (which is a higher skill level than some PuGs have).

I'll take either equally (well, between FF and tankers, rads are not my cup of tea). I do not care why my blaster's HPs are not bottoming out. Fort + heals. Bubbles. Freezing Rain. Flashfires. Everything is shooting some other character. Radiation Infection. Those all work for me.

3 to 4 seconds, probably, unless I choose not to buff myself, in which case I can get it off faster? Often long enough for people to say, "Hey, I can't get Fulcrum Shift off, the spawns are dying too fast." Long enough that by the time I finish animating it, the blasters, scrappers, and tankers who are Fulcrum Shifted from two spawns ago have this spawn dead before I can click Ball Lightning.

While I am all for rethinking the way many of the buffs/debuffs work in the long-term, I do not believe their current state precludes my suggested damage increase. There was a time when I would not have believed in increasing defender and corruptor damage as much as I am suggesting. Changes to stalkers, dominators, scrappers, brutes, khelds, tankers, and blasters as well as the introduction of the SoA have altered my viewpoint.

Not all tankers will be tied with defenders, many will outdo even the stronger buffing/debuffing defenders. It is easy to underestimate the value of Rage or Soul Drain or the ability to use AoEs on large, gathered groups (and while some defenders and corruptors can gather, tankers take less time to do it).

On top of that, those tankers will benefit from the same buffs and debuffs the defender is using, while not needing to spend any time animating those buffs and debuffs.

Ironically, I think I am trying to narrow a divide.

I am trying to sabotage your viewpoint. I wish to demonstrate that your points are flawed. I'd hope (no matter how doubtful) to change your mind. I want to make sure others are not fooled by your mistaken opinion. I will be honest and hope to stay above board. I will not yield my position simply because you are trying to paint me negatively (and this is the now the second time (or third depending on how one interprets your first response to me) you have done that).

I will paint your points in a negative light when I believe they are wrong, but I have not yet accused you of anything (although I am getting close with my questions about the paragraph I quoted at the beginning of this post, which is why I asked you to clarify).

I can be swayed, but you have to do better than, "OMG, 15 players out of 100,000 in the game solo GMs with Rad/Sonic defenders!" or fantasy scenarios where you attempt to postulate that people in the game are choosing defenders and controllers for teams over the other ATs. Hell, just 8 or 9 months ago I was in your camp, when I had the epiphany that I was being obstinate and foolish just because I loved my defenders and the defenders my friends played.

Are you not intending to keep defender damage as low as possible? Do you have an alternate suggestion for increasing defender damage on teams that you feel is better than mine or do you want to keep them right where they are damage-wise?

This one.

And this one:


I disagree. The other ATs will still be fun and the vast majority of players will still desire to play them and have them on their team. They will be just as useful as they are now.

Your damage will be 23% higher than it is now, not exponentially larger.

The vast majority of defenders do not solo AVs now and they will not solo AVs with scrapper level HPs and a 0.8 damage mod. Fringe case is a fringe case. The changes I suggest will not appreciably affect AV or GM soloers.

Are you ACTUALLY saying, "Woe is the poor brute?"

I agree that we do not want to stomp all over blaster, scrapper, brute, dominator, and stalker toes. I believe there is plenty of room to increase defender (and corruptor) damage while still keeping the high damage ATs viable, fun, and worthwhile to teams.

I do not think defenders or corruptors currently trivialize the other AT's team roles. I do not believe they would trivialize the other ATs team roles with my suggested increased damage and HPs.

In the time it takes to liberally apply those (de)buffs the blaster and/or scrapper has already killed two other spawns. Debuffs do not just happen without animation time or without cutting into attack time (Sonic Blast, of course, is the exception, but applying those debuffs in an AoE happens at a much lower level than 2x damage). Or are we talking about AVs and GMs? Once again I ask, why is it alright for defenders to increase blaster and brute and tanker damage 2x~4x, but it would be way over the top if defenders had the lowest damage in the game (tied with tankers) instead of the lowest damage in the game.

What divide am I attempting to magnify? If your intentions are to keep defender damage as low as possible simply because you feel they would become some type of Optimal/Preferred AT with a 0.8 damage mod, then yes, I demean those intentions. Since I believe you are wrong, it would be hypocritical of me to be supportive of your viewpoint. I do not intend to offend or demean you, just your beliefs in this matter.

I do not understand how people reconcile these two positions, which seem so contrary to me.

Two defenders will currently buff an 8-man team, where the defenders have a 0.65 damage mod, two tankers have 0.8, two scrappers have 1.125, a blaster has 1.125/1, and a controller has 0.55.

Somehow you think moving the defender damage mod from 0.65 to 0.8 is going to have a large impact on that teams performance? I think it will have a large impact on player perceptions of defenders. I think it will make players feel more useful on defenders. I do not think it will have a measurable impact on speed through missions on large teams and will have a measurable impact on speed through missions on small-mid-size teams and solo (which I think is a good goal).

While Kin has issues, I do not think I would place it that far below Force Fields. Once you start trying to compare primaries you start down a road full of perceptions and biases. The variability between the buff/debuff sets makes them hard to measure, but certainly is a fun part of the game since it allows for so many playstyles and choices.

Intra-AT balance is not my concern here. Even inter-AT balance is not my primary concern, power wise. I only consider inter-AT balance because I want to make sure that whatever change I suggest for defenders and corruptors still keeps the other ATs as desirable choices.

There is a huge amount of room to boost defender damage without pushing them into too high territory. Despite that, I am not recommending we use all of that room, I merely suggest we put them in the bottom tier of damage, instead of buried. I think a HP increase would give them a different flavor from corruptors while supporting the defender concept of protecting the team and not being fragile.

That is a valid point of view. I do not believe it is the player's problem, but instead a problem with the AT implementation.

I concur. If you can look at defenders currently buffing damage mods higher than 0.8 and feel its fine and yet at the same time look at defenders buffing damage mods of 0.8 and feel it would be unbalanced, then I do not believe I can say anything that would convince you.

Except most of the enemies in the game have a finite number of hit points. If you are already killing the enemies in one or two attacks, becoming 479.87% more damaging is irrelevant. It will still take 1 or two attacks from each defender to wipe the spawn. There is already tons of corpse blasting on heavy/buff debuff teams (and heavy blaster/scrapper/brute teams, vs. most content, heavy buff/debuff teams do not outperform heavy damage teams when it comes to speed of killing, although they often have an edge in survivability that can make a difference).

Buff/debuff really only shines vs. AVs, and even then its only marginally better vs. even con and +1 AVs than a damage heavy team (assuming the damage heavy team has enough mitigation to survive) or a balanced mix. Versus higher con enemies (+3 or higher for normal enemies, +2 or higher for EBs and AVs, and maybe some +2 bosses) debuff heavy teams do start to shine in normal content, but once again, we are now talking about fringe cases.

I don't believe in ignoring the fringe and outliers, but I also do not believe one should ignore the "normal range of gameplay". If the fringe gameplay will be barely affected, as I believe, and if you agree that encouraging defenders to shoot more is a reasonable position, then increasing the damage mod to 0.8 is all win.

Plus, none of the other buff/debuff ATs have to suffer with this mentality that damage needs to be kept artificially super low. I agree the damage should be kept low, just not as low as it is.

There is simply NO GAME BALANCE REASON not to increase defender and corruptor damage. It is a concept choice only. It is not even a choice I can call wrong, it's just a decision I disagree with.

Solution to what? Defender slow solo speed? While I think it would be nice to address that, my bigger concern is that many players think its not worthwhile for defenders to shoot stuff. Encouraging players to shoot more with their defenders can be accomplished by increasing the damage or by increasing the debuff values. The debuff values are already so high, I believe there is no more room to go higher and I also believe this change would not encourage shooting very much. People like to see visible results. Why do you think people say great heals, even if Darkest Night and Fearsome Stare did most of the mitigation.

Even if defenders get no change at all, I think corruptors should have a 0.9 damage mod.

Yes, Rad/Sonics get the boost too. No, I do not fear the Rad/Sonic with the 0.8 damage mod.

I doubt intra-AT issue "fixes" are on the table any time soon. FF/Elec may not have the offensive output of a Rad/Sonic, but their buffs and end drain can provide massive mitigation. I am not against variety and I think it is hard to quantify the value differential of a Rad/Sonic vs. a FF/Elec.

Many people would feel the Rad/Sonic is the clear winner. If I were on a team of 7 blasters and I could add either a Rad/Sonic or a FF/Elec, I'd take the bubbler. If I were on a team with one tanker, 2 blasters, and a scrapper, I'd rather have the bubbler. At any point where my mitigation is in doubt, I'd probably take the bubbler. Offense is easy to come by, so many ATs provide a lot of it. Of course, if every damage mod in the game was 0.65, some might think they NEED to play Rad/Sonic in order to move through the game.

In summary, while a 0.8 damage mod (and scrapper HPs) will not close the gap between FF/Elec and Rad/Sonic (whatever gap that is, since the Rad/Sonic is not clearly superior, IMO), it will make the FF/Elec (and the Rad/Sonic) more desirable than it currently may be for some people.

Who cares about all defender teams? This type of team continually gets brought up by those who want to keep defenders in the sub-basement of damage. Hell, I just want them to be in the basement, down there with tankers. Once again, its NOT THE DAMAGE MOD that matters on heavy buff/debuff teams.

If all defender teams are common and 1 tanker, 2 blaster 1 scrapper, 1 controller and 1 defender teams are rare, then please ignore me. If most teams are buff/debuff heavy, instead of having 2-4 buff/debuff characters and then a mix of other ATs, I withdraw my proposal.

It is possible I am wrong. Maybe there is no clear bias against defenders blasting on large teams by the devs. Perhaps most defender players slot their blasts effectively and use them regularly. My experience is just my experience. What I see, is only what I see. I have to believe what my senses tell me and I have seen and heard far too many players discuss defender blasts as if they were irrelevant.

I would not ignore inter-AT issues. I am saying that there is boatloads of room to increase the defender damage mod (and their HPs) without marginalizing any of the other ATs (well, except corruptors, but I think they should have their mod increased as well).

Damage is still not the issue on those heavy buff/debuff teams. Even at a damage mod of 1.5, they would not be all that much better than they are now. All defender teams rip through spawns so fast as is. Once each defender is only using one or two attacks to wipe a spawn, there really is not much room for improvement. Most of the all defender teams I run on, rads do not even get to use their toggles until we start to fight three spawns at once. A Fort or two, an occasional FS, always on Sonic Dispersion and other debuffs become irrelevant, except vs. AVs. One of the reason I love Freezing Rain so much is that even if I do not need the -res, the KD and slow helps keep them in place for the killing.

ALL of the other damage oriented ATs have something defenders and corruptors will never have. Neat melee attacks. People like to kick, bash, rip, shred, punch, stabbity-death baddies. They will also still do more damage than defenders and be on par with or better than corruptors and will do it without any ramp up time (well, brutes need a bit of ramp up time).

Increasing defender HPs will not make the armored ATs obsolete. The strong mitigation of armors and status protection will keep many people quite happy with tankers, scrappers, and brutes. The extra HPs would be a nice differentiation from corruptors.

That is exactly my point! A huge team of buff/debuff characters may be overpowered, BUT NOT BECAUSE OF THEIR DAMAGE POWERS. By saying its not the blaster's or tanker's higher damage mod, you are proving my point. The higher damage mod is irrelevant to the power of these teams. Stacked buff/debuffs may be overpowered, they may even be "broken", but increasing the damage mod of defenders is not in any way going to make this "more broken". It will simply aid defenders on "normal" teams feel more effective with their blasts.

This is not limited by their lower base damage. Increasing their base damage will not in any way make the situation worse. It will aid defenders on "normal" teams and will have almost NO EFFECT on teams that are overstacking buff/debuff.

How do you reconcile that first sentence with the rest of this paragraph? If damage is not the problem, then adding more damage to defenders is not a problem. Do you really believe that a defender with scrapper base HPs and a 0.8 damage mod will somehow cause too many people to ignore scrappers, brutes, blasters, and tankers?

I have not seen any reasons that make any sense. Perhaps you would like to try?

Why is a tanker with 7 defenders not horribly overpowered? They are, and yet you are not calling for their damage mod to be sunk into the ground. Why is a blaster with 7 defenders not horribly overpowered? They are, and yet you are not calling for their damage mod to be sunk into the ground.

Why can the most survivable AT in the game have a 0.8 damage mod and not be considered overpowered but a defender with a 0.8 damage mod would be terrible?

There is NO balance reason to keep defender damage so low. The only reason to keep it so low is that you want to encourage the AT to NOT shoot stuff on bigger teams. You want them to consider their secondary for control and debuff alone. This is why Fire blast is not ported (yet). Defenders should be concentrating on their teammates and not focusing on the enemy, unless they are on a small team.

I disagree with that viewpoint, but I believe the devs view it as a guiding principle of defender design. If you agree that defenders should not shoot stuff too much on teams, then you should be fine keeping their damage in the dirt.

If you feel defenders should shoot stuff, then you should be clamoring for them to have a 0.8 damage mod.

Oddly, I often feel like I am asking for the AT to be re-imagined; and yet when I look at their basic design (ignoring actual numbers, just the basic design), I feel like I am simply asking for the AT to have the numbers to back up the concept. I do not believe the AT was originally imagined to be a passive, team-window babysitter.

In game defender description:
Website defender description:
Based on my knowledge of the game, the defender concept screams for scrapper level HPs and a 0.8 damage mod.

It means all of it.
However, if you still have +recovery after you nuke (say AB or a slotted Psyche that hit a bunch of dudes), you will occasionally get lucky and before the game ticks off the end cost of a toggle you will get a tick of recovery first.

That is not something you can count on or plan to do, its just a sometimes you get lucky thing. It might happen more often with very high +recovery, like if you had AB and two recovery auras.

My WP/Mace tanker feels like he hits things with a giant freaking warhammer. The AoEs are beautiful. I haven't even squeezed in Clobber since they buffed it and I am very happy with his damage vs. survivability.

Defenders have less survivability and less damage. They have slightly more team utility than tankers.

Give defenders and corruptors a buff, I say.

Blizzard makes a sad face.

I want that statement to be true.

First, I did not twist your meaning. You said that Fort does not really prevent damage.
I accept that you want to take that statement back and change it. I would if I said it.

Second, while not direct damage mitigation, Clear Mind will often prevent massive amounts of damage when used proactively. Finally, the offensive nature of the buffs in Fort, Recovery Aura, and Adrenalin Boost can also go a long way towards preventing damage, but are also not direct mitigation.

...
That is not a smart thing to say. Fortitude is a game changer.

I'll remove the back-loaded nature so all the spawns are higher level.

Yeah. I had to remove some Cybiotic patrols and ambushers from the front of the mission in order to save on file space. I wanted that mixed in feeling of easier and Woah, so I am glad that worked for you, but other than the first spawn the mission beginning is too easy right now.

This door ambush is, I am beginning to believe, sometimes unavoidable. I went through several maps with an acceptable final room and this is the best one where the first Vanguard spawn is normally far enough away not to aggro.

Just to be clear, I have not set anything to ambush the front door on purpose, its just that the vanguard have such high perception. However, after further checking, there is a patrol unit that can spawn near the door and then walk towards it and of course then they see you... sigh. I'll have to remove the patrols, that may solve the problem.

I had to remove a minion and boss from the group. Man did that totally change how the group felt. They went from from having minor end drain to sapping almost every spawn. I fixed that before you played it, but I agree they are not where I want them either. I will continue to tweak that group over the next few weeks.

I like that last room too, I am glad it is the kind of thing you were looking for.