StratoNexus

With capped defense to smashing/lethal and near cap to melee, you should be fine with just 4 pts. of KB protection. You should consider switching to the new build, but keep the Karma KB in CJ instead of the PvP IO in there.

I just can't agree with this. When I play a build that can survive +2 / x8 Nemesis, the KB is not a big problem. Sure, my Kat/Fire scrapper will die often solo in a +1 / x6 mission. KB is not why. My Fire/Ice tanker can hang around with 4 Fake Nems and a few Warhulks and a smattering of lts./ minions without issue. Hell, the KB is often useful, gets me out of those damn auto-hit toxic patches (although stacking HF makes those fairly non-problematic anyway).

After you get a simple 4 pts, KB is just not the issue people think it is. Especially when teaming.

I started this because I was simply countering the idea that you need 16 pts of KB protection to team tank. Why I keep arguing when the goal posts have moved to soloing +2 / x6 or higher (which most FA builds aren't going to be doing even vs. enemies with no KB) I am not sure. I guess I just want people to believe that the reason FA dies in those higher challenge spawns is because of its other weaknesses and 4 pts of KB protection is plenty.

When they nerfed the 'cane so that it would not be so potent in base raids (sigh), they made it tick every second instead of every quarter second, as you said. The old repel effect only lasted about a quarter second, so this was a serious change, since it meant even enemies that got repelled did not go very far and then did not get pushed again for three quarters of a second.

When they "fixed" this, they made the repel effect last about 1 second. This helped somewhat, but still gave a significant window for enemies to run through the effect and get into melee. Compared to how Hurricane worked before the nerf, it was still much harder to position enemies and the user got hit by melee attacks much more frequently, but not nearly as bad as before they made the repel last longer.

The positioning has not gotten any better since then and enemies still run through the 'cane with much more frequency than they did a long time ago. However, the end cost reported by real numbers makes more sense with ticks every quarter second (unless the devs just upped the end cost at some point to make it match the old end cost). I also agree that the KB seems to happen quite frequently relative to what I would expect from a 5% chance every second.

The repel effect is definitely still lasting 1 second, as I can tag an enemy and run away from it and it will still move away from me for a decent time. If they increased the tick rate back to every quarter second, I would have expected them to reduce the repel duration as well. I could be mistaken, but based on what I saw before I posted this, I can't see how the tick rate is 0.25 seconds and yet so many enemies get into melee or run through the AoE so often.

Arch/Men, AR/Men, and Fire/Mental are great rangers, but nothing can compare to Fire/Fire in melee.

At what difficulty? I agree that having zero KB protection against large groups of almost every enemy in the game will get you killed regularly. However, against those same large groups, IMO, 4 pts is enough to reduce KB to levels where deaths caused by KB are negligible. Please remember that we started down this line only because I feel it is unnecessary to slot more than 1 KB protection IO in FA for all current content except Hami raids and to a lesser extent ship raids. In context I was discussing teaming, because I was responding directly to the following comment:
emphasis mine


Builds with no meaningful drawbacks probably should not exist. That being said, I am not arguing this from a balance PoV. I have acknowledged several times that a player of FA has to do something about the KB hole. Fill it with an IO, a power, an empowerment buff, gameplay tactics, etc. It is a weakness and one you have to work around. FA is not unique in having weaknesses it must work around, although it probably has more stuff to work around than most, if not all, other armored sets.

I do understand what you are saying. That is actually the primary reason I even said anything. Every slot is precious and IMO spending 4 slots to get 16 pts of KB protection instead of 1 slot to get 4 pts is a waste. In the context of teaming and tanking for a team, I felt I should say something so that others do not follow the advice to slot 4 of them, because they could spend those 3 slots better, IMO.

Theory craft to follow: When I consider making a high-end FA scrapper build that could solo on the highest difficulty I could manage, I still do not believe I would go past 4 pts. The only way I could see to conceivably manage surviving those types of settings on a solo FA scrapper is with extreme defense slotting. Once I go there, so many KB attacks are just missing me outright, I still think 4 pts is going to be enough to render the deaths caused by KB to be negligible.

As I said previously, I'd love to see the comparisons on that theory build between 4 and 12 (or 16 even) pts of protection. I doubt I will ever make it, as I have my Kat/Inv for that type of thing. I do not recall reading about many /FA scrapper builds running around on +2 or +3 / x8.

I will not speak of high-end DA characters, my experience with them is too limited. I know they can survive tons more stuff than FA, so its possible (although I think unlikely) they may reach a spot, without high defense, where they could survive incoming damage against large groups, but KB above 4 pts is preventing the click heal or moving them so enemies are no longer in a disabling aura and causing death more than a negligible amount of time.

Agreed. That is probably a point I should have included in my original post.

I believe the KB hole is an extremely minor issue for FA when discussing high end survivability builds. FA has significantly more serious issues in that realm of play than the KB hole.

While I would agree that with 0 KB protection, it gets annoying, I find that with 4 pts it happens enough to feel interesting and spice it up, but not enough to be an annoyance.

Duh on me. I knew that, but it did not surface in my brain.

Don't most STFs have teammates? I have certainly been on many STFs where the tanker (or scrapper) had to fend for themselves, but even still that is a very small number of STFs I see, much less the number of STFs run total. I don't talk about the STF without assuming that there will be at least some outside help. But I am not talking about having ID. The KB does not cause an issue. The high damage, end drain, recovery debuffs, and hold from hell are still a problem. Those things are a problem for non-FA tankers too.

Again, when I say the AVs in the STF are easily tanked with just 4 pts of KB protection, I assume a team is around. Tanked means you have them attacking you and positioned as you want them. Very few tankers will survive against level 54 AVs on their own for long, that is not a trait unique to FA. I am saying the KB hole is not a big issue. The level of damage mitigation FA brings on its own may be an issue.

As far as LR hitting, once the blue tower is down, he attacks much slower and normal defense buffs/modest inspires will reduce his hit rate significantly. However, I agree that it doesn't mean much if you are knocked back every so often on an STF.

I almost never solo my tanker. His build is mostly slotted now and includes Tough and Weave. My favorite tanker. We usually run 5 to 8 man teams and max out the number of enemies. Our settings are usually +2, although on some teams we may go down to +1 or up to +3. It is rare to lack at least one or two buff/debuff characters. Now I want to run a 7 blaster 1 tanker something. I did the old Posi that way about 2 years ago, but the low levels are a place where FA shines, IME.

My Kat/Fire/Wpns scrapper runs on +1 / x4 normally when solo. My build is frankenslotted, mostly still with the IOs I bought as I leveled (for example, Flashing Steel has 2 level 20 Cleaving Blows, 1 level 22 Cleaving Blow, 1 level 30 Obliteration, 1 level 38 Obliteration, and an Achilles Heel proc). I try to die at least once a mission (usually on a boss spawn, or those damn two boss spawns protecting hostages) and can often get in a few more RotP on larger maps. Getting KBd is an insignifcant (but not zero) contributor to my death count. DRMs are usually pretty bad for me and the boss puppies can get nasty if I don't stack DA fast enough. Nemesis are a non-issue, I don't get to RotP much against them, so I only grab a Nemesis mission for a change of pace or when teaming. Knives and Malta are pretty respectable enemies, I do so love getting revenge on the knives and throwing my Caltrops at them. Gunslinger bosses can be an issue, but it's the damage, not any KB. I will have to try to get some playtime in since the FA changes, my build already had both Burn and FE, so it should be a nice improvement for me.

I find that as I turn up my difficulty, I can start dying more than I like and I start dying long before I start getting KBd with any frequency that matters. Is it possible that if I built a more defensively oriented FA scrapper I could find a balance point where I mitigate a lot of damage and can easily survive +2 or 3 /x 6-8 spawns but only if I also have 12 pts of KB protection? Based on my tanker experience, I doubt it, but I'd love to see the comparisons on that theory build between 4 and 12 pts of protection.

Well, I get to use RotP plenty (OK, not so much on my tanker, but that is probably a good thing), so I must be putting myself in situations that are less than a cakewalk for my builds. Yet even still, KB is not a big issue. Psi damage, sure. End drain, a bit. Slows are dangerous, but the scrapper has a winter's gift on top of temp protection and that seems to help. High defense enemies (or enemies with big -to-hit) that make me miss are really bad, especially on the scrapper (although I took Tactics on the scrapper to mitigate that weakness).

I don't think closing the KB hole is going to bump FA up to performance levels that will make those with the above stated goals want to choose it. It has a lot of other drawbacks when trying to solo +2 / x8 maps of carnies or Malta or 3 boss spawns of level 54 Rikti.

Only active mitigation is "turned off" by getting knocked. Mitigation from toggles, passives, buffs, and debuffs already applied are still working fine.

I know, it is awesome that I have to take it into consideration. At least I don't have to think any extra about non-positional Psi... because all the Psi hurts the same and a lot!

Pick your weaknesses. Lack of damage boost. Lack of damage aura. Lack of damage patch. Lack of aggro aura (although the scrapper version of FA does not taunt). Lack of a heal. Lack of self-rez. Lack of End recovery. I find sets that lack these things less fun to play. Yet I am fine with lack of KB protection, although I prefer to have a low amount.

I am against adding KB protection to FA, but not because I think FA is too strong and not because I think FA with KB protection would be too strong and not because I think FA gets enough other benefits.

I am against it because I enjoy the KB hole. I like it thematically. I like it when it happens to me. I love how it looks from time to time. The level of KB I suffer with 3 or 4 pts of KB protection is probably about as near to perfect for my enjoyment as you could get while still making me suffer a drawback. It is a weakness I enjoy and one I enjoy working around. I know FA would not be like WP if just the KB hole is closed, but it would be a step closer and a step in a direction I would not like.

I certainly don't think of this as a balance issue, as I agree none of the current armor sets need a lack of KB protect because they are so great in other ways (although you might be able to make a case with DA). I also do not believe the KB hole prevents you from tanking for a team, although you will certainly have to be aware of it if you leave yourself totally open to it.

Since it exists just for thematic reasons, the question becomes, is the lack of KB protection so bad that its dragging the set down below acceptable levels? For some people it seems to be that way. For me, it is most certainly not that way. I like that FA is a very movement oriented set, including that I can get knocked around. You need to move in order to stay alive better. You need to move to get more folks into Burn patch. You want to move into a good spot to use RotP. When do you use the heal? I do not want it to become a well-rounded protection clone of my WP tanker. I can play my WP tanker when I want that playstyle.

That makes sense. It seems more potent than Spectral Terror so far, but perhaps that is because it comes earlier and is being used on lower level enemies. I am very excited to see how it works out post 30.

I can respect that as a want.

But Electric blast goes bzzzt crack bzzzt! It is also bright and shiny. Uhm... and its got the best color customization. The nuke is ranged? I just like it. I got nothing really.

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The Energy Torrent thing is very strange. Sometimes it knocks me back and sometimes it doesn't. How do I know? Because my FA tanker and FA scrapper each have 4 pts of KB protection.

The STF AVs are cake to deal with only having 4 pts of KB protection on my tanker. It is more difficult on my scrapper, although its only a big impact vs. Recluse and once the blue tower is down, its not as much of an issue because he doesn't spam the PBAoE with KB and when he does use it, it often misses. How do I know this? Because my FA tanker and scrapper each have 4 pts of KB protection and are constantly in melee throughout a STF.

I run Carnie and Nemesis and Council and DE missions all the time. 4 pts of KB protection is plenty to make KB an insignificant issue. I was under the impression that most Hami raids took 40ish minutes, although I have to concede that even if that is true, you may have to be in the Hive for awhile before the raid in order to preserve your spot.

I guess I was wrong and its not patently absurd. My apologies to those who feel they need more than 4. I disagree with you, but calling it absurd was not correct.

I cannot convince you. You would have to run a lot of missions with just 4 and decide for yourself. I believe that with just 4 pts, KB becomes a non-issue. Yes, you will occasionally get KBd, but its impact on your survivability and kill speed will be negligible.

I am not advocating it for the sake of looking cool. I believe it is good advice to recommend against "wasting" slots beyond 1 KB IO. To be clear, in my last paragraph when I said KB was a dilemma, I feel that 1 slot will solve the dilemma, but using that one slot is still something you need to do if you plan on facing a fair number of enemies often.

You have all convinced me I was wrong to call it absurd. I still disagree and will encourage people not to bother with more than one.

I am glad there are multiple ways to build and play. If you like that 12 protection, good on you. If you frequently engage in playing the game where even a brief respite can kill you, you may want to have that 12 at all times.

x8 spawns of carnies solo. FA's KB hole is the least of its concerns. Soloing AVs, the KB hole is the least of its concerns.

This being the scrapper forums does not mean we only discuss soloing AVs and fighting x8 spawns solo. If that is what you want to do, then you can build for it, of course. But that is so far out of the norm, that I still say its patently ridiculous to slot more than 1 KB protection IO in any character, especially when taking into context that I was responding to a post that was implying that tankers and brutes needed to slot 4 of the things in order to team tank successfully.

One KB protection IO is plenty to team tank any content in the game without KB being a big issue except for Hami and to a much lesser extent the Rikti pylons and even in those cases I would recommend not slotting 4 of the things and instead using another technique to aid yourself (unless Hami tanking is the only thing you pull out your FA toon to do). Not being an issue does not mean it never happens. It means you are KBd rarely enough for it to not be an issue.

The lack of KB protection is a weakness. It is a dilemma to solve. It will cause problems. If it was not a drawback, no one would complain about it. I am not denying that getting KBd is usually undesirable. If it never caused a problem, it would not be a weakness. As far as I can see there really is not a balance reason to lack KB protection, so it is a flavor decision. You either like the flavor or you don't. I like it and find its very easy to deal with the weakness. For a long time FA had a lot more weaknesses. Some of those have been improved upon. There are still things I would like to see improved, but the KB hole is the least of concerns.

DP/Fire
Shoot something, turn on Hot Feet, shoot something. No redraw.
Turn on Tough, no redraw. Weave and Frozen Armor. No redraw. CJ, no redraw.

Kat/Inv scrapper.
Cut something, turn in Unyielding, cut something, No redraw.
Tough, Weave, CJ, and Invincibility the same.

Make new Rad/DP defender. Take RI and Pistols. Shoot something, wait for pistols to recharge, RI enemy then shoot again. No redraw.

What are you going on about? I agreed 1 KB protection IO was very useful. I am simply stating that there is currently almost no reason for more and even in the two places where it may be a problem to only have 1, there is a simple solution that does not impact your build.

It is patently absurd to use more than 1 slot for KB protection outside of PvP on any character. If you are doing a ship raid, a base empowerment buff + the KB IO will be fine, although you can keep the aggro of a pylon even while getting sent flying, so I would not bother to get the empowerment buff unless you get bored while waiting for the raid to start.

Is the base empowerment buff enough to stop the Yellow Mito KB?

Anywhere else it matters, you can use terrain to cover the KB hole nicely.

My original Fire tanker build had 4 KB IOs, but after putting the first one in and playing for awhile, I realized that there was no need for anymore than that. On more normal difficulty settings and small teams, you really don't even need KB protection, but it can get out of hand when the enemy count gets high unless you also have high defense (so if you regularly team with FF or cold, you might be able to do without).

You can't really go wrong with Pistols/anything, although Devices is a significantly different type of experience. My one SG mate's first Dual Pistols character was DP/Nrg, and they built it as a ranger. They seemed to really have a good time. However, the second SP they made was DP/MM and that has become one of their favorite characters. Much more melee oriented, utilizing Drain Pysche, Psi Shockwave, Bullet Rain, and HoB, although they do also have the cone.

I like DP/Fire, but I like all things /Fire.

I'd go Radiation. Good single target powers as well as good AoE. The stun in Cosmic Burst mixes nicely with the stuns in Energy Manip.

Electric blast is not so good with endurance use that you do not have to worry about it. Decent early AoE, but its control is a hold, so it does not stack with the stuns. No big hitting attack, but it gets a decent pseudo-pet, although the fact that you have to summon it so very frequently can be bothersome.

Psi is a great single target set as is Energy Manip, so if you are not interested in AoE damage, Psi/Nrg is ok. Psi's stun would mix well with Nrg's, but it is a terribly long animation and has low damage, so I would never take it.