StratoNexus
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Posts
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Stalkers should also have debuff/control on top of defense and damage. Setting up stuff to weaken/confuse/limit an enemy has long been a thief role in stories and gaming.
The fear and -to-hit in AS was a good start. Bruising is the type of concept that stalkers need, although on a grander scale. -
Quote:No one who wants to play at extreme levels undervalues FF in the endgame. And this translates into non-extreme levels, as FF will make any team nigh unkillable. People I team with like that quality (even though I sometimes prefer to die).Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The positives for FF are pretty cut and dry. Superior +Def, AoE status protection, and minor click aoe knockdown. My case is about FF having no offensive powers and thus rapidly contributes less as mitigation increases until the contribution eventually reaches zero. No other support set does this and it's why FF is so undervalued at the endgame when mitigation tools are widely available. The only relation this argument has with Cold is as an example of a standard or design practices across all the non-FF sets to show what is lacking in FF.
I would love to see some type of -resist, -regen, +recovery, and/or +damage added to FF. I agree that the set is too limited in scope. But it boggles my mind that you think it is undervalued in the endgame and that you feel its value on most endgame teams approaches nil. I run with Cold defenders a lot and still find FF extremely valuable when fighting endgame content. -
An Earth/Kin controller can be very team oriented. All blasters benefit from a team. A tanker is great on a team. So maybe your scrappers are not team oriented, but they are not terrible either.
A Rad/Sonic defender is great teamed and solo.
I enjoy my Fire/Rad controller teamed and solo.
A Fire/Elec blaster is a good mix.
Hmmm. A Claws/Invuln Brute could be cool, they would have good aggro lockdown with some nice range attacks. -
I like it but I'd rather see:
Punch
Haymaker
Knockout Blow
Assassin's Smash
Rage
Placate
Hand Clap
Hurl
Foot Stomp
I was very disappointed when they removed Lightning Clap from Electrical Melee. -
Quote:True, but I figure someday Khelds will be able to flashback to those arcs. There are a lot of Kheld missions, but I am not sure if it is more or less than Praetoria. So, currently, the other ATs may be on par or slighlty ahead of with Khelds.Originally Posted by Nuclear Girl
I can´t create Veats or Khelds for going rogue. So, they miss pretty much content i would say. Never made the storylines of Khelds, but i can´t believe they are longer than whole Praetoria?
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Quote:While I always say that you can never have too much Freezing Rain, I disagree with the above premise. It is actually quite easy to relegate +Offense from buff/debuff types irrelevant against everything except AVs and GMs. It is much more difficult to render damage mitigation irrelevant when teaming.Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
The same thing happens to every support set, but the difference is that having offensive abilities (-res/+dmg/+tohit/-def/+rchg/+end/+rec) sets a constant minimum value of utility for the set, where as FF just skyrockets down to zero utility.
I don't even get this. FF shines brighter the larger the team and complements other buff/debuff toons magnificently. I want my defenders to idiot proof my team, it allows me to be an idiot, which almost always translates into vastly more fun, IME. Running with a FF defender and then not being being crazy is not properly utilizing what you have. If you use the same tactics you have to use without a bubbler, then you are missing out. Get out there and be an idiot, you have bubbles now.Quote:Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
I mentioned earlier that it is highly unlikely to have an 8man team without any additional mitigation beyond the lone FF user. Also as I said before, FF is the only set that suffers in performance the higher the mitigation is on the team. Part of my problem with this effect is that it happens rapidly because of how diversified this game's mitigation is. It really only takes a 1-2 other defender/controllers or a solid tanker to put a FF on the path of being just weak blaster. Sure, you're still contributing at that point, but it's very little that you're actually adding to the team to the point it would have been better to invite another dps, and it only gets worse the more of those ATs are added. Of course, some might say, they have contributed on such teams on a support level, but I would have to ask you if you sure you weren't just idiot-proofing an already bad team players that would have more in common with Leeroy Jenkins. I believe you used the word, Stability here, but I perceive it as idiot-proofing, and I don't see that exactly as a shining achievement in FF's favor to compensate for it's lack of offense and variety. -
I like the way it works with /Fire. FSC + Bullet Rain is a great AoE combo only made better once you get HoB and Hot Feet. Fire Sword helps take out Lts. quickly and of course aids in putting the pain on bosses. If you enjoy playing your blaster in the middle of the spawn, it is a rewarding combination.
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Bug: Burn does not grant immob protection or end drain resist and does not lay down a burn patch if there are no enemies in range when the power is cast.
The tanker version seems to work fine. -
Quote:Heh, I guess I am going to have to start remembering that Burn got really screwed up this issue across the different ATs.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
That I know isn't the case. Take a fire tank with Burn, pop up combat attributes, stand inside city hall or someplace there are no mobs and fire off Burn. You'll see your Immob protection kick in immediately, even if there's nothing around to hit.
You are correct, tanker Burn grants the protection without hitting anything. However, the version I was playing with before I made my post was the scrapper version. The scrapper version acts as I stated, if you use Burn with no enemy around, you get no protection (you don't even get the fire FX). Another bug report filed. -
Quote:I believe one of the changes to Consume has been to add end drain protection. This protection is only to drain and does not extend to -recovery debuffs. Sadly. the Combat Attributes does not display end drain protection, but only recovery debuff resistance. However, the power description lists the 50% resistance to end drain (and it appears that this value increases when you enhance Consume with end mods. It also appears you must hit something with Consume in order to get this protection. The protection lasts a nice long two minutes, so it is easily made perma.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
No protection from Endurance Drain. There's no direct protection or resistance to Endurance Drain, or indirect by way of Defense. Consume now provides several seconds of Recovery boost (and of course, Stamina will be inherent as of issue 19) but getting hit by a Sapper or stuck in the middle of a pile of carnies when their death drain fires off can still hurt. (That said, I love fighting Carnies. You just have to pay attention.)
In order to get the immob protection from Burn, it appears you must hit an enemy as well. -
If we are talking content that is available solo, it would have to be Khelds, since they get missions only they can access. You can team with a Kheld and have some access to that content on any AT though. VEATs have the same type of thing, but I am pretty sure Khelds have more.
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I have found that I have plenty of lockdown without it. I have often seen Choking Cloud used to good effect by others, but I never felt the need or want for it on my Fire/Rad controller.
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Quote:Burst does and Burst only provides one buff.Originally Posted by Silas
Because it's an AoE. I'm pretty sure Burst doesn't either. If they did, you could max out your PS with a single power activation.
Plus, then RT would be like, good. Inconceivable. -
Burn no longer has a fear, so mobs don't instantly flee when you drop it. However, they still respond to it like they do all patches and eventually try to get away from the pain. Since most of the damage was moved up front, its not really a big problem. Just be sure to use Burn as your last AoE, instead of your first, and that should help you out.
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Quote:I recommend three things based on my experience with fire imps.Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
they only seem to like throwing out jolting chains at the start of a fight, the rest of the time they love their melee attacks, and with chase runners with a reckless abandon ive quite simply never seen.
90% of my post 32 deaths can be attributed to the gremlins.
1) Lock the enemy down so runners only happen rarely.
2) I'll often pull if two spawns are close and I don't feel I can handle aggroing spawn two (although electric control is pretty adept at multi-spawn aggro management).
3) Have a bind to dismiss the Gremlins and don't be afraid to use it.
A fourth thing I suggest trying, but I do not have much experience here yet, is to drop a Static Field under spawn two if you see a runner heading that way. That has helped me a few times when a teammate has chased a runner. -
Quote:No, just the first attack crits, but the placated foe remains placated and you can continue to attack the others who can still hurt you.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I want to make sure that I understand what you just said.
If a stalker placates a boss and then ignores him, as long as he's placated and you leave him alone, every attack you use on the rest of the spawn crits?
My AS still kills minions even at +2 or I can use it on a Lt. (although I have to be careful here, because depending on my buff state, I may kill them) or boss and it grants a very nice AoE fear effect as well as a small -to-hit for mitigation. Have you played a stalker since they were buffed?Quote:Originally Posted by Talen Lee
(Also, while I can see Strato's stance on AS being a type of mitigation, I see it losing its ability to mitigate anything after level 22 or so, when ASes stop being kills.) -
Quote:That really is not what placate should be used for most of the time. It can be in really rare circumstances, but you are missing out if that is what you think its purpose is.Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Stalker: Medium HP high burst damage archetype built around a the ability to hide from enemies and placate them when the going gets rough.
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Quote:Brutes can Assassin's Strike now? Cool. How does the new Fury work with that?Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Placate is the only tool that stalker EM has that Brute EM lacks; Billz feels that stalker EM does not have mitigation issues, and that Brute EM does. Therefore, it must be placate that is doing the duty of mitigating all the extra damage, and the lower HP must indicate it's doing a ton of work on it.
I understand and while I feel that stalker's should not be dismissed since I have always liked a thief role, in this case, I actually think it is acceptable to look at the stalker version of EM and judge it to be fine, while still not being content with the brute and tanker versions.Quote:Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I guess I just disagree with Billz as to the role of the stalker, and I feel that his description is dismissive of the stalker as part of the discussion of EM.
That being said, I wouldn't be against propagating a change to the stalker version either (like making Stun an AoE). I am fairly much against just adding damage to Stun, because the EM issues, IMO, are not going to be solved by having another good single target attack. -
Quote:Placate alone, no. All the stuns and damage and Assassin's Strike and Placate? I enjoy my stalker, even though single target playstyles are not generally to my liking. Certainly not my favorite character, but I did make it to 50 and still play him from time to time when the mood strikes.Originally Posted by Talen Lee
So is it a reasonable permutation of your argument that placate represents enough mitigation for you to be happy with Energy Melee? Hide won't do it; hide replaces another power and doesn't diminish aggro. When you add in the fewer HP, surely that means that Placate is doing even more work than you feel EM should be doing for a brute?
I rarely hit and run on my stalker, but I can do it better than I think a tanker or brute could pull it off, especially teamed. However, the lack of AoE in EM is not a concern to me on a stalker, while I can see it as more of an issue for ATs who have aggro generation at least as a partial team role.Quote:Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Also, isn't it rather disingenuous to claim that an AT that gets critical hits more often than a scrapper, a device that rewards making more attacks, to be 'hit and run'? If anything, the stalker, which lacks defenses and the utility power is even more focused on doing damage than scrappers and brutes. -
Quote:Interesting question. Which is worth more, Whirling Hands or Assassin's Strike? For mitigation and damage, I honestly think I am leaning towards AS.Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Billz's notes are about the set lacking in mitigation. Do stalkers somehow get more mitigation out of EM?\
Placate vs. Taunt? Taunt is pretty good mitigation for your allies, which may yield better mitigation for the user in the long run. OTOH, it is pretty hard to argue that kill my friends is bad mitigation.
The stalker may come out ahead when it comes to mitigation from just EM. -
Quote:Kind of not really. Especially when it comes to AoE output. Stalkers in general lack AoE, so the fact that EM is low on AoE is not actually odd, relative to other stalker attack sets. EM on tankers and brutes, stands out more.Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Well, sure, but are the problems you have for the set somehow not problems for the stalker?
That is not necessarily indicative that the fix should be targeted at improving EMs AoE, but the argument could be made that EM is fine on stalkers but less so on the other two ATs (if EM was a scrapper set, you could point at MA as being similar in its lack of AoE). Brutes and tankers have more of a need for AoE, with their role as aggro gatherer. The gauntlet radius of EM is actually pretty good, so that covers tankers, IMO, and brutes are supposed to be less good at this than tankers, so one could say that EM is just weak in the AoE department and leave it at that.
However, it is not as simple as saying that it is unfair to leave stalkers out. It may actually be quite fair to leave the stalker EM as is and still make a change to the brute and/or tanker version.
I have said something similar before:
Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Coming from a long-time /Ice and /Mace user, one thing about /EM that is often overlooked from a tanker perspective is that /EM is actually not a bad AoE aggro generator. Yes, it is low on AoE damage. However, it had simply beautiful AoE gauntlet. /EM still has good AoE gauntlet, although buffs to /Ice and /Mace have significantly helped those two sets close that gap (and other gaps).
Something about /EM still seems off to me. My only high level experience with it is on a Stalker, and I think Stalkers were the least negatively affected by the changes to /EM. I haven't really had an issue with my /EM Tanker, but he is low level and not played often enough for me to truly judge. -
Quote:Dual Pistols Piercing Rounds has a resistance debuff in the standard rounds.Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
The only known attack powers with Resistance debuffs as a secondary effect are Sonic Assault, and the whip from Demon Summoning.
Also of note for the OP, if you have any attack that accepts defense debuff sets, you can slot the Achilles Heel Proc, which gives a chance for -Resistance. -
Quote:PUGs? I thought we were talking about power creep and making the game way easier for min/max builds?Originally Posted by Another_Fan
The last exchange I had with you, you were complaining that the pug TF you were on wasn't able to move fast enough to satisfy you. Now +80% damage and the ability to have another member of the team that can split off and handle spawns on their own at good speed is insignificant for you.
Glad to see you are consistent in your opinions.
If you want to talk about PUGs, I'll go back to an earlier statement, "Teams are going to run amok! OH NOES!!!!"
Edit: As an aside, you should really try to figure out what you are talking about. You have gone from min/maxed soloing all the way to PUG teams now. Do you even have a point or are you just typing to see letters on your screen? -
Quote:You did not even read what I wrote. When it comes to +80% damage being insignificant, I specifically mentioned WITHOUT kinetics. With kinetics it goes from insignificant to irrelevant. Here I'll quote it for you, because I doubt you could figure out how to find it yourself.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You do actually play this game ?
Just when and where does a team need -resistance or plus damage ? AVS, GMs, the choke points that are handled by the entire team.
And seeing as you used a kin for your counter, that +80% is about what a kin will give you against a single av without the need to hit.
Which is it? +80% damage from assault lets my team split up so we can go through missions faster or +80% damage is a significant factor when we are all grouped up and fully benefiting from every teammates damage/buffs/debuffs? You can't seem to make up your mind. When I said it was insignificant on a team because of how they already work together so well you told me it let you split up. When I said splitting up doesn't work with Assault, you said it helps when they are together.Quote:Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Most of my teams would yawn at that, and that is without kinetics, with a kin, it becomes not just insignificant, but irrelevant.
You can, at this point, either just admit you were wrong or simply state that you feel I am undervaluing +80% damage on a big team of min/maxed builds. I'd recommend the former, but if you choose the latter, the reader can decide whose experience matches their own and move on from there. -
Quote:Actually, the Brute cap is now low enough that if you cap both ATs (and getting a scrapper to the cap will happen more often, since they need less). then the scrapper still has more damage.Originally Posted by PhroX
Brutes do have a higher damage cap, which means that under silly situations like multiple kins, they can pull ahead, but while a capped scrapper's damage might be marginally lower than a capped brute's, it's still far far more than you need for anything in the game.
Brutes no longer outdamage scrappers with extreme buffs, but rather in situations where they can get fury very high and there are low +damage buffs. For technical reasons it is not possible to get that level of fury often and maintaining it for longer than a few seconds also seems impossible.