StratoNexus

Why can't you just be happy they made Brutes to fill that role instead? You already received your wish and got the AT you desire. Why complain about a different AT?

I do agree that all the AT descriptions should be looked at though. Since they are fully integrating the alignment system into the character creation experience, all of them likely need to be updated.

Actually, I think he is asking a different question. I think he is asking, why did the devs bother trying to help blasters in I11 if they were already a popular AT? Who cares if they were underperforming by that metric they made up (the rewards gained/time of the average player metric), if the AT was popular anyway? Does that metric even matter, since it did not seem to have an effect on the number of people attracted to the AT?

That seems to be the gist of his question, but I may be misinterpreting.

Hmm. Perhaps you went even a step further than I was thinking, which is nifty as well. When you say, "designing the powers", are you specifically referring to creating your own powers and not just mixing dev designed powers? I did say the whole shebang and when I speak of needing to use current animations and FX, I can see how that could also imply creating whole new powers, but I wasn't actually thinking of going that far. I just meant combining existing powers in new ways.

But even still, I think many players would likely be able to figure out ways to utilize any powers and characters you would create.

I need to figure out how to find more monkeys to bang on keyboards so I can get another /Fire Manipulation made.

In order to demonstrate how wrong the above assertion is I offer you the following statement.
The devs are working on creating a freeform system. We will likely see it released late 2012.

It should be clear that I completely agree with these points. While I am fine that it is less than Shockwave, I do not understand why it is that much less.
Hell, I made this post in the Scrapper Issues thread almost a year ago now.
And I followed up with this:
I argued for a buff to this power when I tried KM in beta as well.

Despite that, it is not fair to completely ignore it when discussing KM's AoE potential. The damage RT does is lower than I would like, but it is not negligible. I can understand skipping it. But you cannot skip it and then complain the set lacks AoE punch, since you did that to yourself. For me, I am KM/Fire, so Burst + Burn + BA is often enough, but I still find myself doing Burst/Burn/ jumping back for RT, which frequently kills another 2 or 3 enemies, especially useful when I failed to get full spawn collapse and for those baddies who run out of the Burn patch.

OK. You may be right. OTOH, it does seem plausible that they could put a team on the planning stages (code time is locked up for several months, but likely would not be needed on this idea for several months anyway), without much impact on regular releases. When I look at from a man hours PoV, I likely wouldn't even want a team working on it full-time, at least not at first. All that being said, why are we the players even bothering to discuss the labor aspect? So many cases where players think something is plausible turn out not to happen and very many cases where players said nothing would ever happen have come to fruition.

The devs would have to spend time doing it is a pointless discussion, since it is out of our realm of knowledge. Most everything brought up in the suggestion forum will take Dev time to do; should we shutdown this section of the forums? Should we only suggest stuff that will take 30 man hours or less? What is the limit on Dev time where we are allowed to weigh the pros and cons of an idea outside of manhours to accomplish?

For the last time, I completely understand and acknowledge that time to implement is a huge negative against a freeform system. There is no more reason to discuss that point, because it was conceded in the VERY FIRST POST in this thread.
People who continue to bring it up like they are the only people to realize this baffle me.

I did not say it wasn't worth doing, I said it may not be worth doing (technically I said, "The concept of a more limited version of freeform I still think is worth exploring and discussing, even if it's not worth actually doing." How you read the "if" in that sentence could change its meaning, I guess. Consider this clarification). Ideas for expansion of the game are worth looking at more deeply, rather than dismissing with an /unsigned (not to say some ideas need a lot of discussion, some are more simple). I do not discuss it just to argue, but because I find it an interesting topic. The ability to perfectly tailor a character to my imagination would be fabulous. The variety that it could produce in game would be great. The potential pitfalls are real, which mean discussion and research are vital during any planning stage. Throwing your hands up in the air without seriously thinking about how to overcome the problems is repulsive.

One can argue both the pros and cons of an idea. I do not have to just argue the benefits of the freeform system and feel that it must be placed into the game and those who disagree are just reactionary. Nor do I just need to discuss just the negatives and say the idea could never be workable and insult those who desire change. Just because I like the current system, doesn't mean I would not like a new system. Just because a new system has real benefits, doesn't mean the drawbacks are worth those benefits.

Finally, whose time am I wasting? We are on a discussion forum about a game. Specifically we are in the Suggestion forum in a topic whose sole purpose is to discuss the idea of potential freeform character creation. So I discuss the concept of freeform character creation and advancement systems. But I am somehow wrong because I do not clearly park myself in one camp or the other and instead discuss the idea neutrally?

Indeed. And it is possible that continuing down the line of creating new powersets is the correct choice. But in the past new powersets have been slow in coming, because they take a lot of developer time (yes, I realize they were holding a lot back for this fall, but that also indicates that most forum-goers do not really have any idea what the studio is actually capable of producing, looking at what we are likely going to be getting in a few months on top of what we got the last year, I think some people underestimate their potential just a bit). It is possible that in the long run a freeform system of some kind could save developer time, freeing them to create more powers than they currently are able to. A freeform system would also allow them to create powers without feeling pressure to make sure they have enough to fill an entire powerset. the fact that they only have 3 Whip powers would not prevent dominators or blasters (if ATs were maintained) from getting access to those attacks.

Very true. This one of the reasons I would strongly lean towards freeform as an additional method of creation/advancement instead of a replacement. It is one of the reasons I keep saying I would have the goal that a freeform character and a current character would be able to exist side-by-side in the game without either feeling more or less than the other. They did not remove SOs, when IOs were added to the game, as an example.

Now wait, that quote of mine was specifically in reference just to my totally crazy pay for the devs to approve a freeform design idea. That was not serious, which I thought was clear when I first said it since I mentioned, "Doesn't seem like it could be worth it, and of course human error is likely too risky to allow it, but it is an interesting idea."

The concept of a more limited version of freeform I still think is worth exploring and discussing, even if it's not worth actually doing.

It says Freedom. Dom is short for Dominator, all the nod redside needs.

You still have not given me that relevant quote where some Dev said anything like that this decade. You know, the decade where they let people play without paying? The one where they give crashless nukes on 90 second recharges to brutes and defenders and blasters and warshades and everyone else. The dev team that lets my blaster gain perma-mez protection, even against the exotic mezzes. These are the devs who want us to be able to easily switch some of our tools/skills much more dynamically than we could in the past. I want you to show me how you know they have thoroughly investigated this idea within the last 5 years (it seems likely they might have, but I want to know what you know so well).

Here, I'll give you chance to actually contribute to the real conversation. Point out 3 negatives of the idea, none of which can involve things you have zero idea about. No negatives based on dev resources, time, or skill, since you would just be completely guessing. Real drawbacks to the system that would need to be addressed if magic gnomes came in and created the system while the devs were sleeping. I'll even let you cheat and repeat ones others have already mentioned.

Also list 3 positives. What benefits could a freeform system bring? You can be very specific and small, it can be the tiniest, most minor positive, one that might even only affect you and the rest of us wouldn't even care you got the benefit from the system.

Actually, my question was more along the lines of if they get a cosmic crap ton at lets pick $30 dollars a pop, they might be able to hire more people.

The idea was never intended seriously, it was more a thought experiment of taking the freeform idea to a far extreme. The entire logistics of it frightens me much more than the very real and terrifying balance concerns. The level of complication it adds to the UI is nearly incomprehensible, not to mention that the level of detail would be overwhelming and overwhelming is often not fun, especially when it is essentially just bookkeeping that is overwhelming (ever play a PnP game with people who were obsessively organized and thorough with their character records, this idea would be very appealing to them (maybe us, although I always thought my levels were high, but not excessive )). The simplicity of the AT system was always appealing to me. The fact that I can play a character with just SOs and/or cheap easy frankenslotting is very appealing (but I do also delve deeper into the inventions on many characters, so I obviously like complex sometimes too). The nightmare PR of people who can't get exactly what they want (because they want something way out of balance) after paying X bucks is mind-boggling. The level of haves vs. have nots it would introduce is at least of some concern. The system to catalog and store any approved concept and allow them to be browsed conveniently by potential buyers would be difficult to create (think how delightful it is to go through some of the long lists of costume options we have).

One thing that never occurred to me as a drawback would be that people would line up in droves to pay money for it. I did think it might not be sustainable. You might start off with a level of interest that was very high and allowed for the extra staff needed, but once initial concepts were codified the purchase levels could drop off to levels much lower than was workable.

Is that the one where you pay 10 dollars to design a combination I could then purchase for 4 dollars? That seems like a win all around!

/signed
Just because you can type, doesn't mean it should be done.

I too would like that. It would thrill me if Umbral Torrent is a 40/40 cone.

I picked up Torrent with my last respec when we got inherent fitness, I needed a power that would be useful at just the base slot and I figured knocking soemthing back into a Tar Patch would be occasionally useful. I am not unhappy, but I find its length is often a drawback.

I prefer defenders over controllers because I like the blast sets. However, after level 32 non Mind controllers became very potent damage dealers, IME. Heck, Illusion and Fire controllers started earlier than that, even back then. True, before the pet swarm it was slower. I use to fight greens if I had to solo my Grav/Storm in IP or DA or TV, and even then it took forever. But once I hit level 34, soloing was easier than most defenders could do it. Freezing Rain and a GDS to disable every spawn while 3 Sings beat them down I could just Lift and GD any bosses. then I got LS too. Ill/Rads were pretty popular even by Issue 2. I used to head to the RCS and solo the up-level 3 boss Rikti spawns in Issue 4.

Many people have long felt controllers outclass defenders, this is not a new phenomenon. I disagree, but Containment is not when Controllers got damage.

This may be what a lot of people think.

Hmmm. See, if someone did that type of balancing a lot, it would actually be much easier than you may think. Naturally, tools to analyze balance would need to exist (but one would think they already have those now, since they need them for their own work). I still have to acknowledge the possibility for human error is large and the whole idea is likely untenable, but it is still fascinating to wonder about.

Of course, the original template players would interact with would have suggested guidelines, sample templates to compare with, and hopefully even allow for starting from dev made templates.

You worry about current dev time, how many a week do you think they'd get? If it cost 40 dollars to submit? How about 30 dollars, 20 dollars, 10 dollars? Any approved template would become part of the game that anyone could purchase for standard new powerset cost (or maybe a bit less since it is so very specific and not as applicable across concepts), the template submitter would get the unlock as part of the original cost.

I am not wrong. They did not even consider Power Customization back in 2002. Had they, they may have designed the system differently. You mention concepts the devs discussed in 2006-2008 which BABs communicated with us. I can understand how you may have misunderstood what I was speaking about, but in context my quote was a response to your comment about work done in the very early stages of this games design and I clearly spelled that out when I added, "Neither of those points mean a lot 9 years later, just like the fact that they failed to make a good classless system a decade ago is not relevant, since almost everyone who would be involved in designing one now is different."

I disagree. As I said earlier, done well, it would fit in seamlessly with the current game. Note, I would never advocate for a limitless choice system. When I discuss a freeform system, I picture something with limits, many of which would be similar to what we currently have.

You should keep in mind that I already said in this thread, "I am not really for this idea. I like the AT system and am plenty happy with the choices we already get." That does not mean I think the idea should be mocked and called impossible. This is the kind of work I actually love doing though. Most of the foundation is laid, now it requires significant work to frame up and finish. Of course, it is more work than I would do just for kicks (I have done similar work on game systems I got to actually play, but fully fleshing this out without even a potential payoff, seems masochistic). But I could start a thought process (although all the other systems I have designed have had the good give and take feedback of a friend or three, which makes it more interesting, rewarding, as well as better developed).

I envision maintaining ATs or at the least a structure that is extremely similar (maintaining current ATs would be my first choice, but in any concept phase you should at least explore other options). As an example of something similar, we can envision power groupings as they currently exist for ATs (leaving out the VEATs and HEATs for now):
Range Damage, Melee Damage, Mixed Damage (we can use this for both dom and blaster secondaries, just for simplicity), Buff/Debuff, Personal Mitigation, Control, Pet Summoning
Looking at those, we could consider the possibility that in a freeform environment, Mixed Damage need not exist, since the ability to mix powers from Melee Damage and Range Damage will likely already exist. We might want to purify some sets, taking things like Build Up, Power Boost, and Taunt out of the Damage sets and either creating a new Utility set or sets. We might re-organize some things, taking the attacks out of Pet Summoning and placing them into Ranged Damage. Pool powers may be rearranged and some powers could be merged into existing sets. VEAT and HEAT powers could either get their own sets, because those are story based powersets, or they could be merged into their appropriate categories.

I'd likely keep some form of thematic grouping of powers (fire, ice, dark, leeching, poison, firearms, etc.) or at least I would explore the concept before deciding against it. I may not make it the only method as it is currently, but I'd strongly encourage it with the new system. It may be easier to get powers with the same theme as powers you already have or some powers may have a requirement to have x number of powers in the same theme (in order to take Fulcrum Shift, you would need at least 4 other powers that leeched or buffed offense (Siphon Speed, Twilight Grasp, Fortitude, and Siphon Life maybe). I may place a limit on the number of possible themes you could take powers from, or I may just discourage choosing too many themes by adding drawbacks to doing so or just by incentivizing sticking to a small number of themes.

I would choose to keep some form of tiering of powers in place. I'd want to ensure that bread and butter powers are available early and that some of them were mandatory, or at least nearly mandatory. The current system does a reasonable job of this and it is an important element of design. Certain powers would have level limits and/or require a certain amount of lower tier powers taken first. I might enforce taking more Damage powers than the current system does through tiering.

I'd likely limit the number of sets you could choose from. I might even make some sets mutually exclusive or, less restrictively, make it so choosing one set or by choosing a certain combination of sets you may be limited in how much of another set you can take. A simple possibility to consider based on the current AT system: You choose one set as a primary and one as a secondary and maybe we add the possibility to choose one as a tertiary. The tertiary set rules would be significantly more restricted (possibly including any of the following, outright limited power choices, limited tier level, limited ability to choose outside of thematic guides, limited effect of chosen powers, etc.). In keeping with current ATs, we could limit Ranged Damage and Personal Mitigation, choosing Ranged Damage means Personal Mitigation cannot be a primary or secondary choice (and vice versa). Maybe we would limit Personal Mitigation and Control similarly. A lot would need to be thought about in this venue.

All of the above so far has ignored the ground level of ATs, their base mods or stats. Would we create a system where people choose a current AT base which then limits the primaries/secondaries they could choose? Maybe a point system of some kind? What about inherents like fury and domination and criticals?There would need to be a lot of brainstorming and working on ideas and rehashing of ideas here, just like in all facets of any freeform concept.

If I were creating it to add to this game, my goals would be: Do not invalidate any current character; plan big, but release small and steady, and be willing to say here we stop, go no further. I'll say again, done well, a current AT based character would be no better or worse than a "freeform" made character. I'd have a system laid out that in principle could totally replace the current character creation system, but I'd release it in bites as small as possible while still keeping the current creation system online as well; this way current users are not jarred by a totally new creation/advancement system and you get to test smaller pieces of the system and thus get a better judgement into how far you should go. This is the type of system where I would in some ways be more restrictive than current Dev designed sets are, at least at first release (which is another reason to keep the current system online, as it may allow for options a freeform system cannot). As an example, a Claws or Spines scrapper may be impossible to craft in a freeform system at first, better to err on the side of caution then allow people to craft melee/armored based characters with that type of range power in a freeform system.

That is a basic rundown of some places where I would start discussion and design layout. Plenty of concerns exist about such a system and each of them would need to be addressed. The longer you get to look at it, the more you may think of and can make conscious choices about. Peer review would be huge, after such a thing would be laid out and worked on and hammered around, getting some outside looks into it would be vital.

When you make stuff up, it makes you difficult to converse with. Perhaps you should re-read the multiple acknowledgements I and the OPer have made that this would be a large and difficult undertaking. Is my position too reasonable to argue against that it forces you to argue with shadows of your own devising? I'd encourage you to stop being extremist and consider that there is likely a place between, "I could write the system in week," and "Even after 3 years and thousands of man hours, no such system is possible."

Actually, the modular, team based structure Paragon Studios has is perfectly set-up for exactly this type of long-term work while still maintaining steady content releases. I imagine that is one of the benefits they saw in making such a disruptive organizational change. That does not mean I think it is necessarily worth doing a more freeform system, but I do think it is worth considering.

Just because so many have failed, does not mean it is not possible. However, I want to stress that I agree with some of your points. I would still have strong limiters in place if I were to design such a system.

First, I mostly agree with the sentiment as I like the current system very much. However, it is very much possible to gimp yourself in the current system. Defenders who never take an attack beyond the first, armored players who do not realize how valuable mez protection is, and Controllers who skip the single target Hold are three I still see to this day. This is to say nothing of the countless poor slotting choices allowed and made by many, many players.

That being said, I feel we have TONS of options currently, especially when you take into consideration temp powers like the Revolver and Gabriel's hammer. Knowing little of the financials, long-term design goals, or general community desire for such a system, I will not judge whether or not more freeform power selection should be worked on. I do think it is a viable topic for discussion and suggestion.

I agree that PnP design has looser balance requirements thanks to GM fiat. I do not agree that is impossible in an MMO to give more freedom in power choices than CoH currently does.

I wonder how many requests per week would pour into the dev's office if they made some kind of template where you had true and total freeform design fiat, HP level, power choice, power effect mods, the whole shebang, a completely custom character (OK, mostly custom, you would still have to choose from current animations and SFX), but in order to submit it you had to pay X dollars and Paragon Studios would make any changes they deem necessary and then send it back to you and enable you to play it (or maybe allow for one or two rounds of back and forth). Doesn't seem like it could be worth it, and of course human error is likely too risky to allow it, but it is an interesting idea.

I am fascinated as to your reasoning behind this statement? Is it just because of the lack of AAO or do you find the list lacking in some way even for /SR?

On my Dark/Dark corruptor I always just thought of it as my lower damage control power was larger and in order to deal extra damage I had to narrow the focus a bit. Granted, Nightfall is only 18% more damage than TT.

I would be fine if they chose to normalize the cones only if they chose to make them all the same as TT. I would be very unhappy if they shrank the arc of TT. I'd rather TT stay wide and NF stay narrow than have them all change to be a 30 degree arc, for example.

Indeed. Trying to reconcile Controller Dark Miasma with the new Dark Control set is likely why Dom proliferation has to wait. While I like the idea of Fearsome Stare in the Assault set, in the past all Dom Assault sets have gotten a solid self buff. It would be interesting to have a set without a self buff (and I guess we could call Siphon Life a self buff of sorts ).

That would make it about as damaging as Blaze, with a hold; although it will likely have Petrifying Gaze's animation time (which is the same as Incinerate's time, coincidentally), which means its DPA would still be way lower than Blaze and slightly lower than Bitter Ice Blast and TK Blast.

Honestly, it seems unlikely, but it is not out of the realm of possible.

I am not going to provide proof of anything. I will throw some numbers out and let others draw their own conclusions. What higher levels of recharge can do on IO + Hasten builds others will have to calculate if they desire.

The best blaster combo will be Fire/Elec. I will not do a repeatable chain at this point, just a basic attack sequence a blaster might do.
Level 40 common IOs slotted
1 Acc, 2 Dam, 2 Rech, 1 End Red slotted. (Flares has 3 damage and just 1 recharge)
I'll just add in 40% damage across the whole chain for Defiance and the DoT will be averaged in.
Shocking Grasp-Blaze-Charged Brawl-Havoc Punch-Flares
Total sequence time - 6.34 seconds
Power = Name of Power
Dam = Damge per Activation
DPA = Damage per Animation Time (in the total row, it is the DPA for the sequence)
BuD = Damage per Activation after hitting Build Up
BuA = Damage per Activation after hitting Build Up and Aim
If we just use ranged attacks, we can try the following sequence.
Level 40 common IOs slotted
1 Acc, 2 Dam, 2 Rech, 1 End Red slotted. (Flares has 3 damage and just 1 recharge)
I'll just add in 40% damage across the whole chain for Defiance and the DoT will be averaged in.
Flares-Blaze-Fire Blast-Flares-Electric Fence
Total sequence time - 6.73 seconds
A Fire/Elec blaster can pump out some serious hurt. With Breath+Ball it has excellent AoE as well (and can add Rain of Fire for even more juicy spawn melting, if fighting up-level enemies).

Now for a solid armored set, brute Mace/Shield/Mu.
Level 40 common IOs slotted
1 Acc, 2 Dam, 2 Rech, 1 End Red slotted.
I set Fury to 65 and AAO to having 5 people in range.
Clobber-Jawbreaker-Pulverize-Shatter-Mu Lightning
Total sequence time - 8.98 seconds
Respectable output. Only slightly better than the ranger and signifcantly lower than the melee blaster. Crowd Control, Whirling Mace, Ball Lightning, and Shatter provide solid AoE and Shield Charge can add more occassionally.

A more damage focused armored set would be a Fire/Shield scrapper.
Level 40 common IOs slotted
1 Acc, 2 Dam, 2 Rech, 1 End Red slotted.
Ignoring criticals, but including an average for the DoT on FS and GFS.
Fire Sword-Incinerate-Gr. Fire Sword-Cremate
Total sequence time - 7.00 seconds
This ends up modestly better than the ranger and modestly lower than the melee blaster. With FSC and an Epic AoE it has good AoE output and one can add Breath of Fire for a bit more. When I allow Mids to factor in criticals, it comes up with a total chain sequence of 1402, yielding about 200 DPA, which is just about the same as the melee blaster (but I don't know if I like calculating criticals in that fashion).

If others want to spend more time, they can compare Nrg/Nrg blasters and Kat/Elec scraps or maybe Archery/Fire blasters and SS/FA brutes or possibly Claws/Inv Brutes and Elec/Devices blasters.