StratoNexus

It is ridiculous to ask for something you know we cannot provide. All we can do is provide our observations, as we are doing. If you want to shout us down with invisible proof, ask Castle, maybe he will provide you with real evidence to silence us.

I appreciate that you have never heard someone in game complain about soloing a defender. I appreciate that you feel defenders are great as is. I appreciate that all the defenders you have played with (except your Emp/Psi) utilize the blasts to the full. This is obviously a non-issue for you. My experience is different and while I enjoy defenders as is, I believe a vast majority of people find them annoying and lacking in fun and excitement.

Personally, I'd rather they spend time making a Melee attack / Buff-Debuff AT, but since that seems doubtful, I'd like the changes outlined in my original post as something easier to do.

I would like to point out that you have not actually objected to my original post as of such. You are rejecting your own made up idea and I don't blame you.

While it would not surprise me in the least if buff/debuffs got hit with some reductions, the amount of damage defenders or corruptors do with their blast sets is irrelevant to that discussion.

This is primarily a QoL change. It will ease soloing, and will make blast sets on the buff/debuff ATs more useful while teaming in more people's minds. Now is the perfect time to consider changes like this, because all of the more serious AT issues have been fixed. I agree, with defenders doing as well on teams as they do, this should have been low priority. Now that the higher priority stuff has been fixed, it is time to consider defenders and corruptors.

So AM alone divides the time mezzed by ~3? Nice. I missed that change.

You should not feel like your blasts are paltry. Even at 0.65 damage mod they can be meaningful, and the -recharge is more useful than many realize. At the 0.8 damage mod, few would call them paltry, it would indeed help them solo, but it would also make it more likely that on teams they would be percieved better.

With more HPs and more damage a defender could be bolder. Having such good AoEs, one way a defender can protect teammates is by drawing aggro. Obviously, higher damage will help there and more HPs will allow them to survive it.

You misunderstand. I am well aware of the value of defenders in the STF. Your examples of what can be done in the late game and of heavy buff/debuff teams or even just large balanced teams are not indicative of the majority of the game. That is the only reason they are not relevant.

All or heavy defender teams are extremely powerful. I want to improve the performance of defenders on team with a tank, 2 blasters, 1 scrapper and 2 defenders or 1 scrapper, 1 controller, 1 blaster and 1 defender. The changes I suggest should do that without having any real impact on those all defender STFs.

All I want is for defenders to bring more blasty goodness, not less.

With 0.8 damage mod, defenders will not have the most damage, they will still be in the bottom tier. With scrapper level HPs, but mostly active mitigation methods, they will still be in the middle of the pack as far as survivability goes, but will not push past pet classes and in general most armored ATs will still have significant advantages.

For many people, they will be more fun with those changes. They will bring more to a team and will be much more inclined to use their secondary in order to debuff/control the enemy. That is the primary reason why this change is a good idea. It will make the AT appeal to more people and it will expand their percieved team role.

They will not eclipse any of the other ATs. They will not replace any ATs conceptually with those changes. Frankly, the only reason not to make those changes is because you feel defenders should stay back and be buff/debuff bots using mostly only their primary.

Do defenders "need" these changes? It would make them a hell of a lot more fun for a hell of a lot more people.

A corresponding downgrade in buff/debuff is not necessary and nothing to be afraid of because of the damage level of defenders. Buff/debuff powers across the board might "need" a reduction, but if that is deemed to be true, it will be regardless of defender personal damage output. No dev is going to reduce the buff/debuff levels of any of the ATs because of individual damage output, but rather because of how they interact on teams; teams which already could have members whose base damage is well higher than defenders even if defenders had the 0.8 damage mod.

None of which is relevant and nothing in those scenarios will change if we increase defender HPs and damage. The buff/debuff values are so overwhelming, that the base HPs and damage are swamped by them in any case. If it takes 45 seconds to down an AV instead of 55, I doubt that is a big deal, in the grand scheme of things.

I know what you mean.

Status resistance is an interesting idea and it would help solo and on a team. Certainly worth considering.

No fear of it stacking with AM though. AM is already so far over the cap of 100% that it doesn't matter.

But at least I remembered Stalkers! Ironically, I am playing my Warshade right now.

I have and occasionally use the power and I still think it could (should, even) be changed.

I really like Hurdle, so I probably would not skip out Fitness altogether. I'd probably start as below. I would strongly consider adding Leadership in the 20s.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 23 Magic Defender
Primary Power Set: Empathy
Secondary Power Set: Sonic Attack
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Healing Aura -- (A)(9)(15)(17)
Level 1: Shriek -- (A)(3)(9)(15)
Level 2: Scream -- (A)(3)(7)(11)(17)
Level 4: Howl -- (A)(5)(5)(7)(11)
Level 6: Hurdle -- (A)
Level 8: Heal Other -- (A)(21)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- (A)
Level 12: Fortitude -- (A)(13)(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- (A)
Level 16: Clear Mind -- (A)
Level 18: Recovery Aura -- (A)(19)(19)(21)
Level 20: Amplify -- (A)
Level 22: Hasten -- (A)(23)(23)

I disagree. The history of game changes suggests more damage is the most likely thing to be done.

Scrappers have no role on teams. More damage in the form of crits.

Tankers are no fun. Bump their damage mod to 0.8.

Controllers can't solo in the low levels. More damage in the form of containment (with many counter-balancing changes reducing them in the areas one would have thought they were supposed to shine). More damage, less being a controller! (I might still be occasionally bitter about that, .)

Scrappers are getting nerfed. Give them more damage! (1.125 melee dam mod)
Blasters suck now that we changed everyone else (except defenders), more HPs and more damage (Yay, old defiance).

Doms suck. Increase their damage.

Blasters still suck. Scrap the old defiance. More damage (1.125 ranged mod) and more damage (+damage for every attack). Let them do more damage while mezzed too (using the low tier blasts is a lot more damage than doing nothing, a very fun mechanic, IMO).

Stalkers are lame on teams. More damage and more damage in the form of more crits.

Lets make the animations faster on a lot of powers so a bunch of powersets get more damage per second of activation.

Doms still suck. More damage all the time, instead of just some of the time.

The funny thing is, now that everyone does more damage, maybe they should just never have increased the enemy HPs in I3, although this has probably been a fun ride, so maybe it was better this way.

Awesome. I made quite a few levels over 2XP weekend. Level 42 or 43, IIRC. Still learning Force Bubble, man that thing is way different from Hurricane.

Keeping my current build for now, but I have made a copy of Miladys Knight's for potential respec after lvl 50. Thank you all for the replies, it was very useful to help me see the alternatives without having to do even more builds myself.

I know what a defender is supposed to do with all that endurance and I am very glad to have it. Whatever they feel they need from their primary, but mostly, IME, they should be shooting the snot out of enemies. I do wish I could have it a bit solo, so that at half health I would be getting some kind of 20% to 30% end discount (numbers made up for demonstration purposes only, they feel right, but could be too low or even too high).

A +recharge effect is interesting, but I think it would be very difficult to find a good balance between it doesn't do anything and OMGWTF perma AM without Hasten. It seems like a +recharge effect would benefit the skilled vastly more than those who might need help with defenders, so that balance point would be far too variable depending on which player is at the wheel. Kind of like that old inherent for blasters.

Before we get into the thought process of working with the APPs, I want to mention that I think perceived defender issues are not in the high levels. I will reiterate this point throughout the following.
I disagree with the idea that the defender APPs are problematic, while I might not disagree with the sentiment that they benefit the least. Beyond concept, I have very good reasons to take a lot of the APP powers to increase power.

I think the resist armors are fine, especially now that toggles do not drop from mezzing. I do not argue that a defense based armor would be a nice add for variety (and Stone, Ice, and Energy armors are out there and available for proliferation (we never try to give out SR or I guess now Shields, I wonder if they would be OK to port, they seem problematic).

I would agree with the fact that the long animation powers are bad. Give me blaster Bone Smasher and Havok Punch (Smite? Mind Probe? or maybe PSW?) and let them use the ranged damage mod.

While I am not praticularly opposed nor fond of the above, I am having difficulty reconciling it with your first comment, "I really don't think the issue is of HP." You want to provide extra mitigation in the form of +HP, but not until after level 47(?) and on a recharge. IMO, the late levels are already a spot where defenders have the least issues. I'd like to help out defender QoL from levels 15-36, and especially from 25 to 36.

Nothing wrong with the idea, but I prefer the attack based nature of defenders, so even though the APP melee attacks are pretty crappy in general, I prefer that concept.

I do not think it is out of bounds. I would go so far as to say that the devs were tyring to give defenders the "best" of the melee attacks when they designed the APPs. It is not out of bounds at all to have Havok Punch, Bone Smasher, or Fire Sword as defender APP attacks.

A pet is not a bad idea, although I do not plan on taking one with my only 40+ corruptor (my other corruptors do not yet even have a plan for after 40). It also would come late, when defenders need the least "help".

I have several opinions about tankers, but they really have no place in this discussion at all. Tanker population is not majorly impacted by defenders, simply because the playstyle and the visual feel and style are so radically different. Suffice it to say, I think tanker general DPS should be equal or moderately higher than defenders, and they should be able to burst respectably higher (which could certainly cause them to have higher DPS over time vs tougher opponents, and I also like that).

Actually, this was a feature of the suggestion. I do not think it would hurt the balance, I actually think it would help the balance.

I am fond of the HP increase, because it helps differentiate the two buff/blast sets from controllers and MM, both of whom get extra HPs in the form of pets. It is a subtle difference, but one I think would be felt, as most people don't count pets into how squishy they feel. The increased HPs might add about the same benefit as a pet or two mitigation wise, but it will have more a feeling of personal power.

Controllers general lack of true AoE damage is enough for me to ignore that minor discrepancy. Fire control is fine as a crossover set, Ill and Plant, while good, could easily be outdone by many defenders at 0.8 mod. I do not see a reason to bother altering controllers in the least, especially by such a negligible amount.

Nope. I really have gone off the deep end. I no longer see any reason not to do this. I have always seen the reasons to do it, but thought there were very real and serious concerns. Somehow, those concerns seem so trivial and pointless now compared to the potential benefits I believe can be reaped with this change.

Let's ask /Ice defenders, since they already have this. I, actually, have zero problems with that idea, other than to say that it won't make defenders less tedious and really comes a bit late in their careers, at a time where, with all their blasts and a plethora of slots, they already have overcome the main levels where it might feel slow. It definitely could add some giggly fun every few minutes though.

Fine. Others do. Fortunately, more hitpoints will not hurt you. The extra survivability will still require you to play well in order to leverage it, but it will allow for an extra mistake here and there and will allow for people with a bit slower reactions a greater chance to feel the rush without feeling overwhelmed and helpless.

You will probably move through missions at a faster clip, but will still face danger, because you will go one more spawn before taking that green or resting. You will still get the same rush, although perhaps slightly less often, but not significantly less often.

Here is the thing. I disagree with people who do not like to play defenders, or rather I should say I can't fully understand why the hell they do not love defenders, since I do love them very much. That being said, I have heard people in my SG, heard people in PuGs, and seen many people on the forums talk about why they do not like them. It generally boils down to this: "I like playing on a team, but in between teams, when I want to clear out my own arc, or finish up a contact, or I just want to run a mission quick, or I am know I am going to be AFK unpredictably, I'd like to be able to solo faster than when I currently try." I have also seen far too many defenders not bother with their attacks, feeling they are so weak and not worthwhile to a team. While I disagree even at the 0.65 mod, far fewer would doubt their worth at 0.80.

Most of my defenders solo slower than most of my other characters. It is plenty fast for my comfort usually, but sometimes it gets a bit long even for me. I can only imagine that for others it can be intolerable. So, I figured why not improve defender damage. Its not going to hurt the game, defender population is not out of whack on the high side, so adding some defender pop isn't a bad thing. People soloing defenders from time to time is already done, and if a few more can, its not going to kill teaming or have a major impact on the "solo-friendly" ATs, since the playstyle and visual impact are way different. Heck, more people who decide to continue defenders because they can solo them, is probably only going to add to the potential pool of defender teammates.

Too many people fear overpowering the defender AT, because of how great they are on teams. Back during I10, I got a lot of heat from some people who thought that even a modicum of extra mitigation would make blasters ridiculously overpowered (heck even 12% range and AoE defense was poo-pooed by some). Then VEATS came out with TONS more mitigation than even the most ridiculous blaster suggestions, while having damage that is similar to pre-I11 blasters, and great team buff, minor debuff and also great synergy. A lot of my illusions were shattered.

There should be a realization that there is a lot more leeway in these damage numbers and in the balance range of the various ATs.

Did scrappers need their damage mod increased to 1.125? Did they need their animation times sped up? Dominators were already a decently working AT mechanically, yet they were changed in such a way as to make their power curve feel smoother. That is really all that this suggestion is for, to make defenders more interesting to more people in more circumstances.

First, let me get this out of the way. No, I cannot in any way PROVE that defenders are underperforming and need to be buffed in order to solve that problem. Hell, I don't think they are underperforming, therefore I am not proposing any changes for that reason.

I love defenders. I play several defenders reglarly. I find defenders fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs). I love corruptors. I play several corruptors. I find corruptors fun on a team and I enjoy playing them solo from time to time (I'd enjoy soloing them more, if I did not keep thinking how much more awesome I would be with others around to benefit from my buffs/debuffs).

Why should we change anything about either AT? Maybe they will become even more funner! Maybe even more people will find them appealing! Perhaps more players will feel more powerful and awesome! Who knows? Who cares? Let's just do it!

Defenders and corruptors need more hitpoints. These ATs are designed with AoE damage powers and will draw aggro. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to affect enemies, so they often need to get close to baddies. They are designed with many PBAoE powers to protect teammates, so they need to be close enough to enemies in order to keep melee allies inside the effect. It would be more fun if these ATs could utilize those powers with less fear and with more confidence in their ability to take some of that AoE splash damage and some return fire from any aggro generated by using their best AoE damage (and debuff) powers. Extra hitpoints will also ease solo play, allowing these ATs to survive the longer battles their slightly lower damage engender. Since defenders will have the lower damage, they should get scrapper level hitpoints. Corruptors, being the more offensive AT, get blaster level HPs.

Speaking of damage, these ATs do too little. One of the great features of the CoH game is its fast paced battles, and defenders fall out of that area. Variety is good, but defenders are way out of range of standard CoH experience. Corruptors are moderately less so, but still fall short vs most of the enemies in game. While surviving longer battles can be done by both these ATs, in addition to needing more attacks to win a fight, most also need to use active mitigation powers (debuffs/self-heals/controls), taking even more time and endurance. The endurance consumption needed to win fights on these ATs is unacceptable. We could adjust endurance costs, but that would still leave these ATs lacking on teams (you know, the place they are supposed to shine the most). Wouldn't it be more fun if defenders were appreciated more for their attack sets?

Therefore, we will move corruptors damage scale to 0.9 and defenders to 0.8. The corruptor damage cap will be lowered to 400, resluting in a negligible change at the buff cap (0.75*5=3.75, compared to 0.9*4=3.6). Defender caps will be lowered to 325, resulting in no change at the cap (0.65*4=2.6 vs 0.8*3.25=2.6). It might be wise here to lower scourge from +100% damage to +80% in order to maintain current performance vs the higher HP targets, but its not really necessary, IMO, since they are such a small part of the game anyway, albeit an important one for some aspects of the game.

Neither of the above changes will have a major impact on current defender/corruptor playstyle. No one who currently loves the defender playstyle will feel a major difference. Fights will go a bit faster, and they will be slightly harder to kill, but they still will not be able to carelessly wade into enemies. Most of their mitigation will still be active, requiring attention to be payed and tough choices to be made. Current players of those ATs lose nothing (please do not gripe about the 4% reduction corruptors get at the damage cap).

The last suggestion that pushed me into crazy land, was Mag 4 status resists in the Epic armors. This idea I do not like. It would change the current playstyle, it would make those powers must take, and it would take away a bit from FF, Sonic, Traps, and to a lesser extent Rad. Therefore, I can only be wild-eyed, fanatical about the modest increases in Hit Points and Damage. Just say no to APP armor status protection!

OK, now that you are all convinced, let us counter the non-believers.

But no one would play a blaster anymore.
Dominators and VEATs exist, yet I still want to play blasters. It is possible doms could overtake blasters, but never defenders and corruptors. You see, melee attacks are fun. People like to punch, kick, bash, and stab things. Doms and blasters are really the only way to get both. (Yes, some pool attacks for defenders could be used, but really, it is not the same as Ice Sword or Bone Smasher). /Traps might kick /Devices in the teeth; that is not an AT issue, but a powerset concern.

Scrapper and tanker population could suffer.
Have I mentioned that people like to kick, bash, rip, shred, punch, stabbity-death baddies? Also, people will always enjoy the passive mitigation the armored ATs have, not to mention the status protection. Brutes, scrappers, and tankers are not in any jeopardy because of the above proposed changes.

All corruptor/defender teams would be overpowered.
Status Quo. This suggestion does not particularly make them any more powerful when on large teams of other defenders/corruptors, although smaller teams of just these ATs will see a modest benefit. It does indeed improve their (percieved) performance on mixed teams, as they will be a bit more resilient and provide more damage than currently.

Sometimes there is an alligator driving a car, and sometimes you are wearing a hat made out of meat.

I think Frostworks is worthwhile enough on Defenders and Controllers as well as scrappers and tankers that do not have a HP buff of their own. I have seen your evidence to the contrary, but I do not agree with your conclusion.

I do agree that HP caps for some ATs could use an adjustment.

Considering he said, "with Rad there's no lining up cones", I conclude he skipped that power. Standing in the middle using toggles, CC, Soul Drain, Irradiate, and Neutron Bomb. With Hasten and AM, even Irradiate is a twice a spawn power, to say nothing of adding IO +recharge.

That being said, /Dark is also excellent AoE. For a Rad/, /Rad might be a bit better, just because you can leverage CC more effectively.

Unyielding on most, within 4 minutes of my time on my scrapper. Pre-20, Rugged or Tenacious (although with the Issue 16 difficulty sliders, if I can do Heroic without nerfing bosses into Lts., I'll be all over that).

Claws scrappers have some pretty good AoE output. I'd be hitting Frost Breath every spawn though, but a lot of forum reading Ice blasters skip FB. With single target attacks as well they could be relatively similar, especially if the blaster needs/chooses to use their control powers, which are low damage (or if BFR, long animation).

Of course the scrappers wouldn't really have to be careful where they charged or what they were aggroing, so they would be able to "look" more awesome, if you enjoy that type of thing.

Uhm... Read the first post in this thread?

Closet Blaster. Kill the heretic!

3 seconds? Bah. Try 9. Combustion, SC, FSC. Mua Ha Ha Ha Ha!

The dictionary defines Semantics as:


While there are many reasons where you may want to separately analyze healing/regen and def/res (and/or to-hit/dam debuffs), AT balance, specifically relating to speed through missions/speed acquiring rewards is not one of them.