StratoNexus

Yeah, I wasn't thinking about the fact that PA would need to hit LR in order to apply their big taunt effect. I did, however, account for the repairmen, I mentioned CC as an aid. Whether or not it would stop the repairmen often/soon enough, I cannot say, but it was my attempt to account for them.

I wonder if Hover and massive ranged (or Nrg) defense could be achieved. With fully slotted RI you probably "only" need ~70% defense to hit the soft cap.

Well, if you would try something as audacious as soloing the STF, I would figure you would single pull the patrons. Herding them up solo probably is not a recipe for success.

Well, x8 spawns can be done, so I am not sure why its necessary to have to slog through large spawns. I can see it for missions 1, 3, and 4, as the big ambushes are somewhat part of the challenge.

In mission 1, its pretty easy to pull Sands around and lose one ambusher out of the big ambush spawn (and then no new ambushes will spawn since you haven't killed the last one).

The vines should be doable at even con, even at x8, but it certainly would be more challenging at x8.

The ambushers in mission 4 can be fun to deal with, but it seems pretty mundane. Rad does have some trouble with how the spawns would be spread out though, but with IO sets to survive AVs and the pet chaos (+spectral terrors greatness), I can't see it being a big deal.

Doing it at x8, just seems like an unnecessary delay before the real challenges of Aeon and mission 5.

1) Buff. Fortitude and Clear Mind are very good powers. The RAs are potent. Learn to buff fast, while moving, on the fly, in between other things. Other things like...

2) Shoot stuff. Your blasts are awesome (especially the AoEs). It can be hard to see. It doesn't always FEEL like they help, but they almost always are useful for the damage they do.

3) Shoot stuff. Your blasts not only hurt the enemy and save an attack or two (and thereby some endurance) for some teammates, but they often have a nifty side effect that makes the enemies less effective. Some of the blasts are control powers as well.

4) Shoot stuff. Managing aggro is a job the whole team can do. While tankers have some specific things they can do very well with aggro, a character with RANGED AoE damage powers also can do some aggro control. Are 3 baddies standing 40 feet from the tanker and the main group shooting away? AoE them, and move behind a corner so they run over into the tanker and the main spawn. Mez that Lt. that just stays at range. Use KB to get those stragglers into the main kill zone. Kill the Tsoo sorcerer from range, his Hurricane isn't debuffing you like it is your scrappers and tankers (and melee blasters). If you kill the runner, your scrapper doesn't feel the need to chase after that lone mob and instead is salivating over jumping into that next group, where they can dish out tons of pain on multiple enemies (all for you).

One could build a character that has tons of +recharge/+damage/+recovery and (almost) no built in mitigation and then team with a bubbler.

It might be interesting to see which would be faster, using IOs to shore up mitigation and teaming with a Kin or using IOs to improve offense and shoring up mitigation with a Bubbler.

I think that sounds fun and I do not believe it would be unbalanced.

I think a Stone/Fire tanker and a Kin/Sonic defender could probably do pretty well mowing through large spawns and knocking down hard targets. I have to admit, I'd love to see that race myself, I think it would be fun for both teams.

You're probably right. If you summon the PA at a tower before you attack the tower, LR will probably aggro on them first. However, the players damage should generate more threat than the PA after a short time (not to mention, when the PA needs to be re-summoned, I imagine their threat gets totally reset). Not sure how the Phantasm's decoy interacts in that scenario either.

I do not know enough of Ill and their pets and their aggro mechanics to say myself. My only higher level Ill is a concept Ill/Emp without PA or Phantasm.

<.> >.>
^.^
When that happens, I'd never yell, "Bow before me!"

The following is how I look at it.

Unstoppable moves your exotic resists from low-middle to cap. A big increase, and that resistance is stacked on top of Defense and +HP from DP.

Power Surge for tankers and Brutes will move them to 90% to all but Psi (Toxic might not be capped either). Not as big a move as Unstoppable for those classes, and it lacks other mitigation, but 90% resists is excellent mitigation on its own.

Power Surge for scrappers moves those resists to 75%. That is very good mitigation, but doesn't have anything else to layer with. If Energize recharged faster, you could say it slowed down damage enough for the Heal and +regen to keep you up, but even at very high levels of recharge, I am dubious that Power Surge is worth it. Perhaps if you could turn it off at will in order to better utilize the EMP Pulse at the end.

You are kind of selling FF a bit short here, IMO, but I guess you are simply acknowledging that IOs can only replace part of FF. Obviously, with DB, FF can surpass IOs, which is why I guess you didn't include it.

I find it mildly amusing that Kins are not included here, since this thread is kind of about the +damage buffs Kins provide; I am pretty sure, now, you are only listing the bonuses that IOs can replace, thus +dam from Kins cannot be replaced by IOs, but it still amused me.

As an alternate PoV, I find the controller to be the AT I'd rather leave out, especially now with loot. Since buffs and debuffs can have my loot to stack on, I find the desirability of hard controls to be very, very low (with enough buff/debuff, even without any enhancements this is true, but the many changes have made it easier with fewer buff/debuffers). Better, IMO, to have the better -resist/+dam//heal/etc. AND AoE blast powers instead of Earthquake, Terrify, or Wormhole. I guess if you stick to the controllers who wield great damage, they can be as good or better than defenders.

I really like this thought process. I have had similar thoughts, but never fleshed them out in this manner. It is interesting to look at and consider from this point of view and in the fashion of just exactly how much of what buff/debuffers do can be replicated by Inventions.

All that being said, I do not find much preferential treatment in game. Defenders still seem able to get teams fine, although its often harder to get defenders to team with, since they have a lower population (at least IME).

Aye.

(the highlighted you/yourselfs are really just transferring I/myself onto others)
You might want to consider that your original post did not sound like a general observation about Dark Miasma, but instead more like this:

The double I I near the end sums it up nicely.

I could see perma-PA keeping the AVs off a controller while the Rad debuffs and single target damage output take them down. An Ill/Rad seems like they would be able to pull it off.

During LR, PA once again tanks, while you have RI on Recluse to keep him from spawning and CC prevents the repairmen from acting.

Once the towers are down, inspires should be able to carry you through the crazy spawn at the end.

Isn't a damage debuff equivalent to resistance? If the enemy is debuffed 25%, isn't that, in effect, equivalent to 25% resistance?

What makes that 25% debuff matter is not that it prevents all damage, but that it prevents enough so people do not die. It stacks nicely with other teammate abilities. It stacks nicely with your own other abilities (for instance, Transfusion, to-hit debuffs from dark blast, the resist debuff in Howl, it gives you those extra seconds you need to drain the bosses end with SC+ Transference, etc.)

I don't think I have ever heard FS called a CRAP damage debuff before. Its obviously not bubble level survivability, but it is also not insignificant (I would even say it IS significant).

What about the vast majority of the game where in order to survive and flourish vs. +1s a team only needs the enemies to take 1.1 times as long to kill my friends? What if the tanker takes most of the aggro and needs very little (if any) extra survivability vs. +3s and the whole team benefits from taking a bit less splash damage due to FS?

Yes, Kinetics massive offensive capabilities are balanced by its weaker defensive capabilities, except when defensive capabilities are less necessary.

Does a team of blasters and 1 bubbler need more damage? No. But they could use +speed, +recharge, and +recovery throughout the game; vs. hard targets like AVs, the CRAP (Completely Robust and Potent?) damage debuff and -regen/heal would be somewhat useful as well.

I do this inspiration cascade thing with my Fire/Fire blaster all the time. With the exception of an empathy defender, duoing actually decreases my chance of success. I think inspiration drops are reduced dramatically on a team. Even with an Empathy defender, my performance actually goes down, although I think its a bit more fun.

I do not think Milady's observation is a function of IO set bonuses, so much as the inspiration drop rate on teams is borked (and has been for a long time; in issue 3, I remember being on a team of 3 (I remember because we did it a lot) and having my inspire tray fill and fill and fill as we mowed down enemies in TV or CF; now, the same type of team, doing the same type of mowing (actually killing even more enemies), and I can hardly get inspires fast enough, yet solo, I can hardly combine them fast enough to keep room in my tray.

I would say that most of the time, defenders actually have good mitigation and are not naked. Debuffs protect the caster as well his teammates. Sonic and FF buffers have decent self protection with the Dispersions (and FF gets PFF and KB/KD as well). Empathy has little up front mitigation, but Regen Aura and Healing Aura are potent. Defenders also get the highest value from the pool powers that grant protection (Tough, Weave, CJ, Maneuvers, etc.).

Recharge is never a bad thing, even if the primary doesn't get high value out of it (FF comes to mind) the secondary can usually benefit from it. That being said, its kind of hard to generalize. IO bonuses allow for a great variety in style and means to an end. +Endurance would be pretty useless to a Kin and most Colds would probably not care much for it.

What is it you want to do? How do you like to play?

Dark Melee / Regen scrapper

Here is a build up to level 35. If you want to get Touch of Fear in sooner, it could swap places with Hover or Aid Other (I can't be sure what exactly you would prefer sooner, some control, teammate assistance, or if you need Hover in order to TP).

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 36 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Regeneration
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Concealment

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Shadow Punch -- Acc(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), Dmg(7)
Level 1: Fast Healing -- Heal(A), Heal(9), Heal(23)
Level 2: Smite -- Acc(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), Dmg(7), RechRdx(29)
Level 4: Quick Recovery -- EndMod(A), EndMod(9), EndMod(23)
Level 6: Recall Friend -- Range(A)
Level 8: Hover -- Flight(A), Flight(17), Flight(17)
Level 10: Reconstruction -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(11), Heal(11), Heal(15), RechRdx(31)
Level 12: Siphon Life -- Acc(A), Dmg(13), Dmg(13), Dmg(15), EndRdx(25)
Level 14: Teleport -- EndRdx(A), Range(31)
Level 16: Integration -- Heal(A), Heal(31)
Level 18: Dull Pain -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(19)
Level 20: Aid Other -- IntRdx(A), IntRdx(21), Heal(21), Heal(34)
Level 22: Grant Invisibility -- EndRdx(A)
Level 24: Touch of Fear -- Acc(A), Fear(25)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Acc(A), RechRdx(27), RechRdx(27)
Level 28: Instant Healing -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(29)
Level 30: Stealth -- EndRdx(A)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- Acc(A), Dmg(33), Dmg(33), Dmg(33), EndRdx(34), RechRdx(34)
Level 35: Phase Shift -- RechRdx(A)
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit

While I think Kins are close to egregious, I do not feel terribly strongly about it.

Aye, you want to start with something that does damage, that way FS/SP has something to buff. Fulcrum Shifted Wormhole is not going to get you XP. While other buff sets can do it, and do it well, Kin is just a bit better, in most circumstances, and I am not just talking about farming (which is really just running a mission and defeating the bad guys, except with mind-numbing repetition).

That being said, you do not need to start with the highest damage to truly perform well. Fulcrum Shifted Energy Blasters and /Electric defenders can mow through enemies darn quick too (you do want some AoEs though, which is why Plant and Fire are the only control sets that really qualify for this type of mob mowing).

Living within the cap is irrelevant in this context. We are talking about absolute damage, not relative damage. If a Fulcrum Shifted blaster/scrapper is fine in game, then so is a Contained, Fulcrum Shifted controller, since the controller will be doing less damage.

I can understand that. It is why when I discuss Kin, I try to clarify that I think its a bit off kilter everywhere and not just on controllers. To me, its not containment, its great +rech, +recov, +speed, and massive +damage, all of which are perma on an entire team (although the Kin themselves do not get +recov, Transference covers that lack). Its the Kin that impresses me, not the control (but I am biased against control, as I feel it is highly overrated).

Yeah, you pretty much could see the bait from the get-go, but its still a good mental exercise, IMO.

Aye! I would definitely play it on a blaster. I'd be (a lot) more hesitant on a character that generally had just melee attacks.

I guess its possible they beat it without facing level 54 AVs, I hadn't thought of the difficulty settings thing when I first read it. Now I am sad.

While I agree with your general premise that Kinetics has some balance built in to offset its strong offensive contribution to a team, it is my opinion that you oversell its weaknesses. Also, its weaknesses are almost always rendered irrelevant on a team.

I certainly cannot agree with your statement that without FS its a two-trick pony. So many people under utilize kinetics though, I can see why people feel that way (and in many cases it will play out that way in game since it is underutilized so often).

Interesting clarification (and alteration of emphasis) on what you said. Your post I quoted does indeed speak of their extra publicity, but you also downplay the sets ability. I disagree with your downplaying. Kins (not just Fire/Kin controllers) are very good at a broad band of the game and in many cases actually are "better" than many other sets (better defined as reward/time). Dramatically better? Overpoweringly better? Insignificantly better? Its debatable, but I would say "noticeably better", at the least.

No, I don't have dev datamining to back that up. Go ahead and ask me for it, someone always feels the need about here to ask for information they know I can't possibly provide. Conclude that I am speaking from my experience, as I conclude you speak from yours. You must be saying, in general, teams without a Kin are just as effective as ones without. While they can be (and in some cases they could be more effective), most teams would benefit siginificantly more from one Kin.

I do not agree that obnoxious publicity is the real problem. Where there is smoke, there is fire; I think there is at least something smoldering with Kinetics.

So, it is wonky to go from 400% of controller damage to 800% of controller damage, but going from 200% blaster damage to 500% blaster damage is thumbs up! FS on a blaster is normal and well within bounds, containment on a controller is bad and a problem. Your disconnect boggles my mind.

Containment will generally only take a controller from 200% to 400%, and many controller "attacks" won't even have +100% damage from slotting (instead having some emphasis placed on Hold duration or Immob duration, giving some other power, for instance FS, even more effect than containment). FS doubling the damage of the pet(s) is unaffected by containment (although pet damage output is not supreme, its still a factor). Heck, Hot Feet doesn't fully benefit from containment, but it sure does from FS (and Transference/Speed Boost, so you have the end to run it). FS Lotus Drops or Spin doesn't even need to crit to blow away containment.

Allow me to show you:
Unless some non-controller AT gets containment that I do not know about, you are pretty clearly stating that Kinetics (which includes FS) is not a problem, except when combined with controllers. Additionally, I wasn't actually directly attacking you with this statment (I have seen you play, and awful is on the opposite end of my opinion of you), merely the supposition that awful Kins are the ones who feel Fulcrum Shift must be overpowered.

No, I got your point. I just enjoy any excuse to bash on APP Melt Armor. Consider it an unnecessary tangent due to my personal bias and disappointment at what APP Melt Armor could be vs. what it is.

Actually, I am fascinated by disagreement. It amazes me that people feel FS + Fire Control might be overpowered, while blithely ignoring FS + Fire Blaster. Understand, my first level 50 defender was a Kin. I am constantly amazed at what it brings to a team (and I include the whole Kin package, not just FS, SS/SB/ID/SP/Trans/Trans, hell, I even have Repel), even without containment its amazing.

I have a Fire/Rad controller who happens to run with a Fire/Kin controller from time to time, and FS is great and amazing there, but I wouldn't say its better on the controllers than it is on a Fire/Fire blaster or a Kat/Fire scrapper or a Fire/Mace tanker. I have seen, used, and been a recipient of FS thousands of times on every AT. Its a big deal almost everytime its used (even if you only get 3 or 4 buffs from enemies) and can be so even more now that the game allows us to feed it without a big team.

What is the line? I don't know; its subjective anyway. Its also not my call. Its fun to discuss it though.

Calling an issue a "dead horse" always implies conversation should cease. Maybe you need to better understand what the words you type mean and imply, instead of accusing others of being bad at comprehension. OTOH, its just a game forum and we are discussing one simple power that can be replaced / ignored anyway, so, I guess you can be unclear, caustic, and amusing all day long; I find it entertaining.

I have always been fond of the idea of making Barrage a melee cone.

EM can stack stuns very nicely. They can lock down multiple things easily if you take the control power Stun.

STF Duo report

Enhancements are overrated.